View Full Version : Audiophile Mains Fuses - Boon or Boooom(!)?
The Grand Wazoo
14-12-2010, 00:34
So what are the pro's/cons/facts and fallacies about audiophile mains fuses?
Do they improve sound quality?
Are they safe to use?
Are they worth the money?
Have you tried them?
If so, could you tell the difference?
i have no idea if they work and remain open minded but I do think its a bit OTT to go to these lengths
StanleyB
14-12-2010, 08:04
I used to work in the insurance business one time and can recall that claims were always rejected if there was a fire or equipment failure due to an electrical fault, and the fuses in the mains plug were found to have been overridden or replaced with one that is not approved by BSI for use in the UK.
They would even reject claims if the original mains plug was replaced for one of those quick fitting types, or the mains cable was replaced.
To test 'hifi' fuses I suggest auditioning a system with:
- standard & correctly rated fuses
- standard but 13A fuses
- shorted out fusrholders, use wire or copper/brass rod
- 'hifi' fuses
I hope 'hifi' fuses don't sound better than shorted out fuseholders....a simple test would be to try a shorted out fuseholder to check is this sounds better than a standard fuse, if it does then maybe get a 'hifi' fuse to try.
Make sure you know what you're doing if trying any of this....
The above is only for test purposes as some of the above options will be illegal.
Quite why the UK stands almost on its own in requiring fuses in plugs....seems like we're OTT.
I used to work in the insurance business one time and can recall that claims were always rejected if there was a fire or equipment failure due to an electrical fault, and the fuses in the mains plug were found to have been overridden or replaced with one that is not approved by BSI for use in the UK.
They would even reject claims if the original mains plug was replaced for one of those quick fitting types, or the mains cable was replaced.
This raises an important point are these fuses BS kite marked If not then remember folks what you do is at your risks
hifi_dave
14-12-2010, 09:50
We have fuses in mains plugs because our Ring Main circuits are able to supply a minimum of 30 amps and this can cause a lot of damage if things go wrong.
Dave Hewitt
14-12-2010, 09:57
Hi,I suppose its possible to change your socket and plug to 15 amp types which are not fused, for test purposes.I removed the fuses out of my mains plugs and fitted solid copper bar and thought the sound improved,but dont know the legality of this but all my gear has internal mains fuses which means originally there were two fuses in series,perhaps that doesn't help sound quality.
Dave.
The various fuses are there to protect different things. The ones in the consumer unit is to protect the ring. The one in the plug is to protect the mains lead, the ones in the equipment are to protect the equipment.
I must not swear at the tradesmen
I must not swear at the tradesmen
I must not swear at the tradesmen
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I must not swear at the tradesmen.
Phew! Done it Mum!
Can I come out and play with the others now Mum?
:sofa:
Rare Bird
14-12-2010, 13:24
People do stoopid things like over rate fuses in plugs. I bet most on here have wrong fuse ratings.There's an absolutly simple way of working it out but people just like just plonk in a 13A & forget about it, that is total stupidity. Virtualy every Amp & CD player i bought second hand, someone would have fitted a 13A fuse without fail, why?
anthonyTD
14-12-2010, 13:47
hi andre,
i totaly understand and agree with your sentiments, however, as stated by others the fuse in the plug is only there to protect the lead and not the equipment! so,,,if the lead is rated at 13amp then it should have a thirteen amp fuse fitted, if however the lead is of a fixed type, ie; not a detachable IEC [known as a kettle lead to most of us]type then it can be argued that the fuse in the plug is the correct fuse rating for the equipment and not just the lead.
a lot of consumer equipment these day for eg, hair dryers, and other house hold devices of similar dont have any other means of protection apart from the fuse in the plug!
Athony,TD...
Rare Bird
14-12-2010, 14:20
Hi Anthony
Sorry yes what i was trying to say is for instance one of my amps came with the original flimsy mains lead that can't be rated at no more than 6 Amp,if that, which is fine for this amp.. who ever fitted a 13Amp fuse in the plug i totally disagree with what they have done.
anthonyTD
14-12-2010, 14:54
Hi Anthony
Sorry yes what i was trying to say is for instance one of my amps came with the original flimsy mains lead that can't be rated at no more than 6 Amp,if that, which is fine for this amp.. who ever fitted a 13Amp fuse in the plug i totally disagree with what they have done.
:)
Beobloke
14-12-2010, 15:57
if the lead is rated at 13amp then it should have a thirteen amp fuse fitted,
No it most certainly should not. Are you seriously suggesting that if I choose to make myself up a mains lead or two using some of the spare armoured mains cable we have here at work, which is rated at 20A, then I should be putting a 20A fuse in the lead to my CD player?!
The lead should have a fuse appropriate to the power rating of the item to which is connected fitted.
anthonyTD
14-12-2010, 15:59
No it most certainly should not. Are you seriously suggesting that if I choose to make myself up a mains lead or two using some of the spare armoured mains cable we have here at work, which is rated at 20A, then I should be putting a 20A fuse in the lead to my CD player?!
The lead should have a fuse appropriate to the power rating of the item to which is connected fitted.
hi adam,
please re-read what i have written, and think about it.
A...
Reid Malenfant
14-12-2010, 16:32
You see this is the problem :eyebrows: Knowing whether to rate the fuse for the cable fitted to whatever it is or for the equipment itself ;)
Anthony gave a good example of a bit of kit that probably hasn't got a standard internal fuse a little earlier - a hairdrier (not that i need one :lolsign:). These tend to have fixed leads so it'd be sensible to rate the fuse for the equipment. It'll more than likely have a fairly thin flex as well which would indicate to use less than a 13 Amp fuse, in fact 7 Amp might be more appropriate for a 1.5KW load. They do have thermal fuses though incase of overheating (fan motor giving up or blocked vents) will cause this to blow & prevent a fire.
I tend to always rate the fuse to the equipment & ignore the cable (unless it is undersized when it wouldn't be used in the first place :rolleyes:). It is pefectly safe to use a 13 Amp fuse on 1.25mm^2 cable as long as the equipment has it's own internal fuse. As has been pointed out on a number of occasions the fuse in the mains plug is only protecting the cable if the equipment is internally fused.
On the other hand if there is no internal fuse then the one fitted in the plug must be rated to protect the cable & the equipment. You just need to hope that either the manufacturer has fitted an adequate mains cable (most kettle manufacturers take note :mental:) or you are competant enough to make sure you never underate the cable if fitting it yourself :doh:
anthonyTD
14-12-2010, 16:41
cheers mark,:)
i hope that clears things up, i just wish people would read the whole thread before comenting on one post!
we have already established that the maximum fuse rating one can use on a domesticly spured socket is 13 amp!
mark has re-explained the rest for those not sure of the key issues discussed in the whole thread!
Anthony,TD...
Reid Malenfant
14-12-2010, 16:45
No it most certainly should not. Are you seriously suggesting that if I choose to make myself up a mains lead or two using some of the spare armoured mains cable we have here at work, which is rated at 20A, then I should be putting a 20A fuse in the lead to my CD player?!
Apart from the fact that you wouldn't fit a 20 Amp fuse in the plug, the plug itself is only rated to 13 Amps ;) I can assure you that if you continuously draw 13 Amps through a mains plug it'll get quite warm...
As i mentioned in my previous post, i fit a fuse that is rated for the equipment, but as long as whatever you are connecting this hypothetical lead to is internally fused you can rate the fuse to protect the cable :)
Having had a brief think about this most household electrical items need to be fused according to the item itself as generally they don't have internal fuses (that i know of). Toasters, electric cookers, food mixers, refridgerators etc would need a fuse rating according to the current draw of the item concerned.
Electronic household items tend to be internally fused however :scratch:
Rare Bird
14-12-2010, 17:08
Apart from the fact that you wouldn't fit a 20 Amp fuse in the plug, the plug itself is only rated to 13 Amps ;) I can assure you that if you continuously draw 13 Amps through a mains plug it'll get quite warm...
I'm actually shocked at our kettle 2500-3000Watt, no wonder our elecky is sky high. :eek:
Reid Malenfant
14-12-2010, 17:17
I'm actually shocked at our kettle 2500-3000Watt, no wonder our elecky is sky high. :eek:
Now go & look at the cable connecting it to the mains & see what guage it is :doh:
I'll be surprised if it's 1.25mm^2 :eyebrows: Manufacturers always appear to under-rate the cables feeding kettles, i guess it's because the figure it won't be permanently switched on :mental: But just supposing it was continually boiled for lots of hot water....
:steam:
It's amazing though that the general public have such little understanding of that lecky stuff flowing around the house.
Many moons ago it wasn't that uncommon for folks to plug an iron or a kettle into the lights using all sorts of iffy adaptors :mental: Not uncommon either is the dimwits that will wrap tin foil around a blown fuse :doh:
On the subject of these esoteric fuses for audiophiles, I have known for years that the fuse in the mains plug is the final arbiter on whether or not an audible improvement can be gleaned from paying attention to it because however thick the gauge of mains cable(s) is all the way from the power station right up to the input socket on your hi-fi, the fuse is always the bottleneck for current flow and is what ultimately determines the total loop resistance of that entire circuit. It goes without saying though that we can easily forego that small sonic improvement when it comes to the subject of safety, which isn't up for compromise.
I must admit I’ve not measured the current capacity of much of the internal wiring inside an amplifier but from what I recall the wires to and from a transformer from example are fairly small gauge in general, as is much of the hookup wire used before the transformer.
Whether or not the cross sectional area is less or more than a 13 amp fuse say I don’t know.
There are also internal equipment protection fuses with a low amperage rating.
So, even if one does replace the cable protection fuse with a solid copper rod or an “esoteric” fuse, wont the bottleneck inside the amp negate any possible benefits? :scratch:
Another point is, aren’t amplifiers current rated anyway? Current isn’t like voltage, the amp will only draw what it needs. If your amp does draw 30amps then the internal fuses would reflect this I would have thought.
I just cant see how having an up-rated fuse that may permit more current than the equipment requires can have any audible benefit and depending on which fuses you replace seem downright foolhardy :scratch:
Even the copper rod idea still leaves the matter of the contact resistance of the fuse holder. Perhaps we should just weld all the contact points together.
Keeping correctly rated fuse clean and free from oxidization on the other hand does seem sensible.
Stratmangler
15-12-2010, 10:30
Keeping correctly rated fuse clean and free from oxidization on the other hand does seem sensible.
Definitely agree here:clap:
anthonyTD
15-12-2010, 10:35
hi john,
a lot of what you say here makes total sense, its the quest for reducing the over-all impedance thats the main cause for people to risk playing about with fuses, or not [copper rods:doh:] as you say, there are other limitations that will indeed impede an improvement somewhere down the line, ie; internal fuses, and wiring etc, the unit will as you say only draw the current it needs no matter what fuse rating you put in the plug or equipment, but if the impedance is lowered by substituting a small rated fuse for a reletively larger one then the theory is the unit can draw a higher instantanious current than with a smaller fuse fitted, however from experience i have found that improvements are very small and diffrences heard are mainly down to the individual power supplies used and the type of class the equipment is run in ie; class A, AB, B etc.
either way, i for one would not and do not condone anyone changing out fuses for incorrect types [and standards] for any reason what so ever, the fuse ratings are there to protect the leads and equipment from severe damage to themselves and your house!
Anthony,TD...
Hi Anthony TD
I realize that lowering impedance is the prime objective and impedance can get quite complicated in both behavior and calculation (I even remember how to use imaginary numbers :eyebrows:) but given you have a wealth of experience in amplifier design I have to ask you, could you differentiate between one type of fuse and another without prior knowledge of what fuse was in use?
anthonyTD
15-12-2010, 11:35
Hi Anthony TD
I realize that lowering impedance is the prime objective and impedance can get quite complicated in both behavior and calculation (I even remember how to use imaginary numbers :eyebrows:) but given you have a wealth of experience in amplifier design I have to ask you, could you differentiate between one type of fuse and another without prior knowledge of what fuse was in use?
hi john,
that is a difficult one, i think its one of those tests that would have to be conducted after intense listening by more than one person to the same system and music so that each one listening had a real feel of the system in question, and the music played etc, all this would of course be subject to everything else in the chain staying exactly the same, ie; mains voltage, temperature etc.
my short answer would probably be, i doubt it!
IMHO one of the better options to use instead of a CONVENTIONAL fuse would be a RESETTABLE type of the same rating as these do not work in the same way as a regular fuse etc.
here is a link to some interesting facts on fuses and overload protection http://www.circuitprotection.ca/fuseology.html
Anthony,TD...
Thank you for your honesty.
I assume when you write a resettable fuse you mean something akin to an RCD?
Overall, there does seem to be considerable doubt about both the wisdom of replacing fuses with ones of a different type and rating, and the audible benefits.
I cant help but wonder at the position of the seller of alterantive fuses should there be an accident involving loss of life at worst and damage to what could be expensive equipment in the event of an accident or malfunction.
As I understand it, the fuses mentioned here on another thread have no BS kite mark and I therefore assume are not tested for safety.
So, I have to ask, should AoS allow promotion of equipment that doesnt conform to BS, particularly given mains voltages which are potentially lethal are involved?
Reid Malenfant
15-12-2010, 12:11
I think Anthony is refering to this kind of fuse John ;) I might be wrong though...
3225
Ah, I see. Thanks Mark.
I didn't realise such devices were called resettable fuses ;)
Reid Malenfant
15-12-2010, 12:25
As I understand it, the fuses mentioned here on another thread have no BS kite mark and I therefore assume are not tested for safety.
So, I have to ask, should AoS allow promotion of equipment that doesnt conform to BS, particularly given mains voltages which are potentially lethal are involved?
I might be wrong here but as long as the fuses are tested to EU standards then they shouldn't need a kite mark or a BS stamp :scratch: We are in the EU after all & effectively what they say goes :rolleyes:
anthonyTD
15-12-2010, 12:29
I think Anthony is refering to this kind of fuse John ;) I might be wrong though...
3225
thanks mark,
Those are indeed one type,
however there are types that fit into conventional fuse holders that can be reset manualy.
Anthony,TD...
anthonyTD
15-12-2010, 12:36
Thank you for your honesty.
I assume when you write a resettable fuse you mean something akin to an RCD?
Overall, there does seem to be considerable doubt about both the wisdom of replacing fuses with ones of a different type and rating, and the audible benefits.
I cant help but wonder at the position of the seller of “alterantive” fuses should there be an accident involving loss of life at worst and damage to what could be expensive equipment in the event of an accident or malfunction.
As I understand it, the fuses mentioned here on another thread have no BS kite mark and I therefore assume are not tested for safety.
So, I have to ask, should AoS allow promotion of equipment that doesn’t conform to BS, particularly given mains voltages which are potentially lethal are involved?
Unfortunetly there are grey areas in the standards that can be interpretated in diffrent ways, ie,as far as i am aware neither "old stock" nor new production vacuum valves conform to BS standards, due mainly i feel to where they are made and the materials they contain, therefore how do we decide here what AOS can and cannot allow to be promoted by trade members when key members of AOS actualy endorse vacuum valve equipment!
Anthony,TD...
Reid Malenfant
15-12-2010, 18:37
I think you might find the very same things with transistors Anthony ;) To be used in produced equipment they may well have to RoHS compliant (http://www.rohs.gov.uk/) :scratch:
Old stock transistors with any lead in them certainly are not & as far as i know can't be used in manufacturing, there are a lot of old stock transistors out there & i certainly won't be chucking them away :eyebrows: New transistors have to be Pb free & are actually marked as such.
An example would be a load of MJ11033G transistors i have, the 'G' signifies the new lead free versions. These will be mated with a load of MJ11032 which are old & non compliant, but then i'm not a business ;)
Techno Commander
15-12-2010, 20:57
Same with solder. For home use, lead based solder is fine, but for manufactured items, it has to be lead free. Unless you have an exemption.. :)
anthonyTD
15-12-2010, 22:12
Same with solder. For home use, lead based solder is fine, but for manufactured items, it has to be lead free. Unless you have an exemption.. :)
hi andy,
you can use leaded solder in re-works or repairs etc, but as you say all new equipment made after around 2003 has to constructed with lead free solder and RHOS complient components!
there is however exceptions, ie; military and medical, where lead solder is still used as its more reliable!:doh: dont you just love Bureaucracy.:lol:
Anthony,TD...
Hi guys,
Interesting discussion....
I've had personal experience of using the 'Hi-Fi Tuning' fuses in question, as I bought some a while ago, and can say that to my ears they do give a subtle but worthwhile improvement in sound quality over standard fuses, I would guess due to the superior materials used in their construction (solid silver internal wire and gold-plated end caps), which basically help improve signal conductivity.
After all, if the crap quality wire used in 'freebie' interconnect cables can be improved upon, why not also that used in 'freebie' fuses?
Or are we saying that the 'freebie' fuses supplied with equipment are already 'of perfect quality' and that there's nothing in their construction which could be improved? ;)
If so, based on my experience of such to date, I would totally disagree.
Fuses are undoubtedly a necessary evil (acting as a sonic 'bottleneck' in audio applications), but since they must be used for safety reasons, it makes sense that, as 'audiophiles' (I hate that term, as it can have rather uncomplimentary connotations, but it'll do for now), we minimise their sonically degrading effect as far as possible.
Therefore, the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses in question (or those from AMR, which I've also used to good effect), seem like a good solution for those wishing to 'go the extra mile' optimising an already well-sorted system.
Hi John,
So, I have to ask, should AoS allow promotion of equipment that doesn’t conform to BS, particularly given mains voltages which are potentially lethal are involved?
As far as AoS is concerned, if the product being mentioned is legal, and so is currently for sale on the marketplace via reputable dealers, then discussion of its sonic merits or otherwise is perfectly acceptable.
What we won't promote is discussion of tweaks that members have carried out themselves which don't involve products legally for sale on the marketplace, and thus which could be dangerous, e.g. those involving fuse by-passing or 'up-rating'.
I trust that explains where AoS stands on this matter :)
Marco.
StanleyB
16-12-2010, 08:45
As far as AoS is concerned, if what's being discussed is a product that is legal and currently for sale on the marketplace, then discussion of its sonic merits or otherwise is perfectly acceptable.
It has not yet been established that the product is legal for use in the UK :). No answer has yet been forthcoming that the fuse has a BSI kite mark.
The fact that it is on sale is neither here nor there. Drugs, guns, and prostitution are also on sale on the streets of London ;).
Yes indeed, Stan - and I take your point. However, if they're widely available to buy (which they have been now for some time) and sold through long-established reputable dealers, that's good enough for me.
I'm also confident that the (reputable) companies producing them wouldn't have put them for sale onto the marketplace had they not met the legal requirements. It's not as if some unknown 'fly-by-night' person or company has just introduced these fuses onto the marketplace in the hope of making a fast buck.
Therefore, until I see undisputable evidence which shows that the use of these fuses could be dangerous and/or illegal, then discussion here of their efficacy or otherwise, sonically, will be permitted (and indeed encouraged) in the same way as that of other 'audio accessory' products in this section of the forum :)
Marco.
Drugs, guns, and prostitution are also on sale on the streets of London
Got any recent prices Stan? :)
Im not overly worried about the legality aspect and it is Christmas after all ;)
Techno Commander
16-12-2010, 12:56
there is however exceptions, ie; military and medical, where lead solder is still used as its more reliable!:doh: dont you just love Bureaucracy.:lol:
Anthony,TD...
Indeed. As we repair aircraft electronics, lead free is banned. :)
As you say, the leaded alternative if far more reliable (and easier to use). Although we have installed a filtered extraction system to remove any vapourised lead.
Strangely, the flux isnt restricted and anything that can disolve soldering iron tips has to be somewhat dangerous.
Our solder also has "expiry dates" and as we buy in bulk, there are always reels being disposed off. Most of the guys here have several reels of very high quality solder for home projects.
anthonyTD
16-12-2010, 14:25
Indeed. As we repair aircraft electronics, lead free is banned. :)
As you say, the leaded alternative if far more reliable (and easier to use). Although we have installed a filtered extraction system to remove any vapourised lead.
Strangely, the flux isnt restricted and anything that can disolve soldering iron tips has to be somewhat dangerous.
Our solder also has "expiry dates" and as we buy in bulk, there are always reels being disposed off. Most of the guys here have several reels of very high quality solder for home projects.
hi andy,
thats interesting!
i heard too that chrome tools eg, spanners etc are a no no around aircraft engines etc, any truth in this ?
keep me in mind for some of that solder...:eyebrows::lol:
Anthony,TD...
isuckedmandelsonslemons
17-12-2010, 11:01
“Drugs, guns, and prostitution are also on sale on the streets of London”
Got any recent prices Stan? :)
I’m not overly worried about the legality aspect and it is Christmas after all ;)
Put me down for some of the drugs and prostitution. I can bring my own weapon
anthonyTD
17-12-2010, 12:49
Put me down for some of the drugs and prostitution. I can bring my own weapon
:lol::lol::lol:
It has not yet been established that the product is legal for use in the UK :). No answer has yet been forthcoming that the fuse has a BSI kite mark.
The fact that it is on sale is neither here nor there. Drugs, guns, and prostitution are also on sale on the streets of London ;).
really? only the rubbish whores, drugs and guns are on the "streets"
would you buy speakers from a White Van on the Streets.
You won't find any quality drugs or sex on the streets of London, of that I can assure!
Beechwoods
22-12-2010, 17:31
Lets try and keep things on topic chaps :)
Techno Commander
22-12-2010, 20:10
hi andy,
thats interesting!
i heard too that chrome tools eg, spanners etc are a no no around aircraft engines etc, any truth in this ?
Absolutely no idea. Although I can see the sense in it. Getting somme flakes of chrome into a high speed bearing is going to give you a really bad day.
Going off at a slight tangent, we have to use titanium tools when working on radars.:) Anything magnetic could degauss the magnetrons and they cost $1200 each.:eek: A 4mm allen key costs £55 and its £120 for a decent screwdriver. We keep these locked up.
keep me in mind for some of that solder...:eyebrows::lol:
Anthony,TD...
Not a problem, I will make a note to check the expiry dates after christmas.
anthonyTD
22-12-2010, 20:16
:)
Aww come on Nick, we have to chat about something given nobody is actually going to be daft enough to categorically state they can hear the difference a fuse makes
..are they? :eyebrows:
Fair play Marco :lol:
Im not going to try to dispute it ;)
I forgot to add, usually after a few malt whiskies......! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Hmm, maybe the Bowmore Islay just isn’t cutting it :scratch:
Either that or I'm not getting enough of it down my neck.
(wonders what Marco uses to sort those fuses out)
wee tee cee
24-02-2011, 11:29
I am new to the site and just came across this thread...well,I have to admit to buying phonosophie fuses.I have three at 60 quid a pop.My dealer loud and clear in glasgow had one of the fuses and offered it to me to give it a go.I had a naim cd 5 mk2 player and 5 amp,standard leads straight into the wall.I was very sceptical but gave it a go when igot home.The difference with the cd player was almost like removing the grills on speakers.I made both my son and ever suffering wife sit through the comparisons all were adamant the fuses improved things noticebly.I eventually made up my own power leads and now have a fuse in my tacima block and one each in my power leads feeding my naim amp and mf m1dac.Anyone in the glasgowish area wants to take the pepsi challenge pm me.
You've got Naim, with iffily isolated power supplies - nuff said really ;)
Lol - these things actually do work, Dave.
I use the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses inside the Furutech mains plugs on my Mark Grant DSP 2.5s. The effect is not 'night & day', but it tidies things up and removes a slight graininess in the sound that you'd otherwise not know was there.
This tweak is about putting the icing on the cake of an already well-sorted system, rather than obsessing about, though :)
Tony, nice one, so enjoy!
Marco.
wee tee cee
24-02-2011, 11:40
took the leads round to my mates house with benchmark dac and power amps and we tried the lead listening to some blue nile...we actually thought he had selected a different track such was the difference.Give one a go you might be pleasantly suprised.
Debates continue as to the merits of audiophile fuses, I have a fresh delivery of these arriving next week, they are not a well known manufacturer but the products speak for themselves in performance terms, reviews a plenty and all positive from what I can find..
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/imagesqtbnANd9GcRF1ThRUlvCJWITnAhl1.jpg
And...a big and....they manufacture an audiophile UK mains wall socket with a clip on RFI shield, very interesting.....
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/RFT-13-01.jpg
I have 2 arriving with the fuses.
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