Electronics or acoustics

[Welder]

I moved from a stone built house with heavily plastered walls, concrete floors, carpet, rugs on the floor and hanging on the walls to my present rather bare by comparison flat; suspended chipboard floor, plaster board on stud with insulation internal walls and plasterboard on stone outer.

The difference in the sound from my Hi Fi was staggering and I’m not prone to exaggeration when it comes to sound quality, and it wasn’t staggeringly good either. It almost brought me to tears.

I read on this forum and on most others of contributors spending thousands of pounds on electronics/equipment and every now and then you get to find out details of where they place all this expensive equipment.

From some of the descriptions and pictures that I’ve seen of peoples listening environment I just cant understand how they believe they are hearing anything like the true potential of their equipment. The likelihood is they’re not hearing the equipment at all; what they hear is the room and unless you have defective hearing or are delusional I cant see how you could convince yourself or others that you are listening to quality audio.

You can’t shove speakers like mine for example into small a vibrating box, feed them 40 watts and expect anyone to believe you when you say they sound wonderful. That doesn’t mean they aren’t good speakers; it means they are totally unsuited to the room.

I took my recently rebuilt speakers to a friend last night and as Marco would say, we had a bit of an overnight sesh. He converted his double garage many years ago into Hi Fi room, acoustic treatment, dedicated mains, the works.
You wouldn’t have believed they were the same speakers.
My friend did a great deal of the conversion himself but he estimates he spent around £4000 on the project (8 years ago) I’ve read of some people spending that much on a cable!

So, why do we do this, spend thousands of pounds on our Hi Fi systems, stick them in totally unsuitable rooms and then call ourselves music lovers when if it was the music we cared about we would buy equipment that will work in our listening environment?

Might we not be better off spending some of that money on treating the rooms?

For me the answer is honest and simple, my fondness for my kit, especially my speakers outweighs my desire for outright sound quality. I have recently started to do what I can with the limited options my listening room and finances give me.
What’s your excuse?

Going to bed now, shattered.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

What a great post. Couldn't agree more.

[John]

Getting the best out of the room allows you to hear your system at its best
To be honest I tend to see it more the other way around as it suprises me how much I get from mu room its my biggest limiting factor

[Ali Tait]

Yes,couldn't agree more,however a lot of us have to live with a family and most of us don't have a separate listening room,so don't have the luxury of having the room the way we want.I'd love to have my own room.

[Ali Tait]

BTW,I find open baffles seem to be less room dependent than box speakers generally.

[John]

Yes agree but they need space behind them mine about 3 feet away from the rear wall put them to close and sound starts to tail off

[ourdogmax]

I have moved house now 3 times, and every time I do the whole hi-fi ends up being messed around with and changed to get things right.

Modern houses sound crap, though the one were in now is around 40 years old it does not sound like my first solid built terraced house.

I have though, just on a whim, bought some Monitor Audio Studio 12's off Ebay.
They are un-ported and work great against a rear wall. I'd be hard pressed to part with them.

though a friend had some MA speakers not too long ago and they sounded bloody awful, just shows, you never can tell. ;)

[DSJR]

At last, someone else has got it.....

In domestic setups, the most influential thing of all is the room. Don't despair though, the likes of Nick Whitaker aren't that expensive, relatively speaking and they can provide remedies and suggestions that shouldn't break the bank or totally disrupt domestic living arrangements.

One good point about IB speakers is that the bass is usually tighter and less likely to upset existing room modes - the ATC20's I owned, both active and passive, were some of the most tolerant speakers I've ever used, the BC2's needing careful placement if the bass and lower mid isn't to swamp everything. Going to a decent active speaker will help too, despite the removal of the tweak factor, as the active amps will have much greater control of the drive units..

[Ali Tait]

Yes agree but they need space behind them mine about 3 feet away from the rear wall put them to close and sound starts to tail off

Yes there is that caveat John.

[HighFidelityGuy]

I'm definitely with you on this one. In a perfect world we'd all have acoustically perfect listening rooms but unfortunately that's rarely possible. However I've found that it is possible to counteract the effects of the room to a certain degree with a small amount acoustic treatment and a little EQ. I use foam bass trap cubes from Studio Spares hidden behind the sofa and in various corners that are out of sight. This tidies up the bass response a bit. Then I tweak the rest with a Behringer DEQ2496 EQ in the digital domain before my DAC. I find this combination allows me to get a fairly flat response.

I still have a couple of problem frequencies that I think are caused by reflections. So I'm hoping to get some acoustic panels to put on the walls but I'm finding it difficult to find something that won't look out of place and convince my wife on the subject. I found THESE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300490851577) on ebay which are cheaper than most commercial units. The seller told me he can make them in almost any size and colour. So that could be a good option.

[Welder]

I must confess I was a bit surprised to read your responses. I rather had you down as a more of a "don’t measure and trust your ears" types.

The only way I know of effectively treating the listening environment is to measure what effect the frequencies have and for that you not only have to measure the output but also its behavior in the environment.

“At last, someone else has got it.....”

Well. I’ve known for many years now; it’s what I used to do, acoustic engineering, but for military applications.

The problem is it isn’t a popular message on “audiophile” forums. I was bombed off one forum many years ago for contesting the assertion of one of the “established” members who insisted that he was getting accurate glorious sound at concert decibel levels with his esoteric kit in what amounted to a shoe box. I gave up on Hi FI forums for many years after that. Calling him a deaf halfwit probably didn’t help :doh:

I personally don’t think any one type of speaker is inherently better in a particular environment. Most well balanced systems can produce a satisfactory audio experience if you’re prepared to analyse and adjust the environment and often a few speaker tweaks can help. What also helps is persuading people that turning up the volume may give concert decibels but not necessarily concert acoustics.

My speakers for example don’t really come to life until you feed them say between 12 and 15 watts. That doesn’t sound like a lot of power but in my listening environment, approx 4m x 2.5 with an open side anything much past that amount of power is uncomfortable to listen to for extended periods and probably isn’t very good for my ear drums either. It’s not necessarily the volume per se; it’s the standing waves, the deflected high frequencies, the floor vibration etc etc.

Part of the problem is we love to show our kit off and low powered and efficient doesn’t impress as much as that huge, powerful and inefficient even if it performs better in that setting.

When you take my post regard Hi Fi reviewers, age and hearing into consideration, if you believe there is any merit to it, you can’t help but wonder if we aren’t wasting a lot of money and kidding ourselves into the bargain.

I know I can’t hear particular frequencies because I have my ears tested on a regular basis; a life benefit of working in acoustics and concerns about hearing loss due to the nature of the occupation.
When I posted about who had their hearing tested I think the response was zero…strange for audiophiles who should value their hearing. If I had asked who had tested the capability of a particular piece of equipment I think the response would have been considerable.

[HighFidelityGuy]

It does seem that a lot of audiophiles fail to understand the importance of the interaction between the room and speakers. I hear of people constantly box swapping in their search for perfection when quite often the room was probably causing whatever problem they were perceiving. I now firmly believe that anyone setting out to build a high quality audio system should first do their best to improve the acoustics of their room. In doing so they will save a lot of time and money later down the line as it will make choosing the rest of their system a whole lot easier, especially the speakers. I'd also recommend the purchase of a basic RTA system like the DEQ2496 EQ and ECM8000 microphone. You can probably pick up these for less than £200 and you can always sell them when your done.

As you mentioned, getting an accurate reading of the rooms acoustics can help as it gives you an idea of what to aim for when choosing certain components like speakers. Obviously your ears should be your main guide but having the data "on paper" can often help you to understand what you are hearing and allow you to improve problems areas. For example, in my room I have a null at about 400Hz. Boosting this frequency on my EQ improves the sound but boosting is bad, so I need to find another solution. I know by experimenting and looking at the data that I could improve the sound by changing my room acoustics. It might be that I only need to re-position my speakers slightly, in which case the solution is free. Either way, now that I have the data I can target my efforts and watch the display on my RTA as I try things. Without these tools I'd be pissing in the wind and probably looking for a new cable or something to fix my slight lack of mid-bass punch.

Far too many audiophiles see Hi-Fi as some kind of magical potion where they need a sprinkling of this and a dash of that but they don't really know what this or that really is. Once you see an RTA plot it's easy to see where you have too much or too little of certain frequencies. Once you smooth out the plot things start to sound much more balanced. Now by saying smooth I don't necessarily mean flat, not everyone likes the sound of a flat frequency response, I just mean without sudden peaks and dips. Once that's done you can more easily concentrate on the areas that are more difficult to measure. This is where your ears come in because just because you have a smooth response doesn't mean it sounds musical or engaging or whatever emotive adjectives you'd like to apply. This is where using high quality electronics, speakers and cables come in because even though you can improve the rooms acoustics and EQ out other problems, at the end of the day you can't polish a turd. It might be that you still need to try out a few different sources and amps etc to achieve the subtle balance of harmonics that sound pleasant to your ears but most of the hard work is out of the way. I've found that electronics like DAC's and amps don't seem to greatly affect the frequency response. They just seem to impart their own certain timbre. This is why I believe audiophiles need to have a balance of subjective and objective views on Hi-Fi. If you're completely objective on the subject you end up with a Hi-Fi that measures perfectly on measurement equipment but probably sounds shite. If you're completely subjective you end up spending tons of money and time muddling through, buying all sorts of different speakers etc and never really understanding why some things work and some don't. I guess it doesn't matter which route you take as long as you're happy in the end but I know which route I'd rather take. ;)

Apologies for the rather drawn out post. I think all this sitting around at home waiting for the snow to melt has affected my brain. :mental: I think I needed a release. I feel much better now. :lol:

[goraman]

This is the most honest thread I have read all year!
Before my listening room became a nusery my space was 75% treatments.
The room was small but I could power my Sound Lab panels with less than 15 to 20 watts and it was enough.

[Welder]

Without wishing to sound like AoS’s Health & Safety rep I just can’t emphasise the importance of getting those things on the side of your head checked out :eyebrows:
One in five of males get hearing disorders in our 50’s.
Our ability to hear higher frequencies and complex harmonics deteriorates with age.
Many audiophiles expose themselves to prolonged decibel levels that are potentially damaging.
It’s all very well saying I trust my ears but if they don’t work properly……………:scratch:

A thorough test carried out by audiologist will cost less than a set of “hi end” interconnects. It can also save you a considerable amount of money when it comes to buying equipment. If you cant hear beyond 15kHz for example then investing in say 24/192 Dacs, high res files and 22kHz capable amps looks a bit pointless.

The ghastly truth is a great many of us just cant hear the frequencies and sonic subtleties we are so fond of debating. It’s not a question of opinion or training; it’s a simple aural capability fact.
It is a bit frightening for audiophiles to consider finding out if their ears are not quite so golden as they may have supposed.
We get our eyes tested on a regular basis, but our ears, the organ that connects us to the music we love seem to get abused and ignored :mental:

Its no good telling me for example when I say I cant hear the benefits of 24/192 files that I need to train my ears or buy better kit, the fact is my ears don’t pick up those frequencies. Yes, there may well be information in the lower frequencies and 4th and 5th harmonics that theoretically could be heard given sufficient decibels but apparently I cant hear those either. At least I know what not to concern myself with.

After you’ve had your ears tested then go and buy or make a condensing mic and measure what your listening room is doing to your Hi Fi and sort that out.

If after that you want to post on a forum about the sonic subtleties your kit can produce and your ears can detect then at least you’ll understand when that wry grin spreads across my face and I think its probably bullshit.

[Reid Malenfant]

Hey John, surely you aren't insinuating that i'm imagining this 40Hz (approximately) room mode that gets on my wick :scratch: :lol:

Take it from me that i can hear it :ner:

Must do something about it.. Narrow band twin T filter or some kind of absorber or even some kind of digital EQ???

[twelvebears]

The impact the room has on any system can't be underestimated.

I've tinkered with a Behringer DEQ2496 to apply some parametric equalisation (cut only) and it's pretty good if used only in the digital domain, but I've decided that some acoustic treatments are the way to go and will be getting cracking as soon as the weather improves a bit.

As long as it's DIY, you can do a hell of a lot to improve the 'sound' of a room for a fraction of what a component upgrade could cost.