Next upgrade - a new DAC?/ newbie [Archive]

Bonky

30-11-2010, 21:16

Ali Tait

30-11-2010, 21:21

Guess it depends how much you want to spend,

Jonboy

30-11-2010, 21:39

What would you advise?
I have looked at the forum on this - but results seem inconclusive).

Thanks,
Rich/bonky

The results are in reality because you pays your money and you takes your choice, i have a Caiman and so do many others on here, i also have an Audio Note and a home built valve one as well, they all do something a little bit different, i would suggest you go for a dac that is not forward sounding as your speakers might sound fatiguing after a while (in my experience).

The Caiman needs some running in to get the best from it but the upgrades are endless to fine tune it to your tastes perhaps look for a second hand one, there was one for sale very recently on here, or try a valve one, it also depends on what outputs you require as some are very limited, the Arcam rdac has been getting good reviews as well, i have not tried one so can't comment, the dac magic some love it and some hate it.

Sorry to be so vague but you must try a few to see what matches your system the best.

magiccarpetride

30-11-2010, 23:31

I have a Sugden A21 amp + Linn Mimic CD player + Linn axis deck (+ others) + Living Voice Avatars. (+ apple airport express which connects wirelessly (important) to iTunes/iMac i5).

I'm wondering about a DAC. The caiman seems good but wonder about the DacMagic or the new/upcoming Audiolab Dac.

What would you advise?
What are the best settings for AE and itunes? (Yes, I have looked at the forum on this - but results seem inconclusive).

Thanks,
Rich/bonky

PS. I'm going to Hong Kong in Feb.

Given your situation, I'd say your best bang for the buck would be to replace your CD player with Logitech Squeezebox Touch. Touch should give you better resolution than your CD player, because it comes with a really good digital transport (but hear for yourself), although I'm not sure about the DAC stage in Touch (haven't spent enough time auditioning it).

Try Touch on (it's only $300.00), live with it for a while, then try a few DACs for size. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up with Caiman. So for approximately $650.00 total (Touch + Caiman) you'll end up with a very decent source/front end. You'd have to spend upwards to ten times more to better that combo. Pretty much unbeatable in my neck of the woods.

Bonky

01-12-2010, 07:08

Given your situation, I'd say your best bang for the buck would be to replace your CD player with Logitech Squeezebox Touch. Touch should give you better resolution than your CD player, because it comes with a really good digital transport (but hear for yourself), although I'm not sure about the DAC stage in Touch (haven't spent enough time auditioning it).

Try Touch on (it's only $300.00), live with it for a while, then try a few DACs for size. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up with Caiman. So for approximately $650.00 total (Touch + Caiman) you'll end up with a very decent source/front end. You'd have to spend upwards to ten times more to better that combo. Pretty much unbeatable in my neck of the woods.

Thanks for that - very informative..
...but (and I'm going to seem very 'thick' here)... what is the benefit of the Logitech Squeezebox Touch over the 3 airport express units I have? I can already stream (wirelessly) music from my Mac to the Sugden amp.

Any help gratefully received!

(I was going to ask the question on another forum anyway... but if one bought the Caiman what CD mechanism/player would you advise to go with it?)

BW

Bonky/Rich

StanleyB

01-12-2010, 08:00

if one bought the Caiman what CD mechanism/player would you advise to go with it?) You need one with a TOSLINK or digital coax output.

Ali Tait

01-12-2010, 08:06

Thanks for that - very informative..
...but (and I'm going to seem very 'thick' here)... what is the benefit of the Logitech Squeezebox Touch over the 3 airport express units I have? I can already stream (wirelessly) music from my Mac to the Sugden amp.

Any help gratefully received!

(I was going to ask the question on another forum anyway... but if one bought the Caiman what CD mechanism/player would you advise to go with it?)

BW

Bonky/Rich

The benefit of the Touch is that it will stream high resolution files.Plus,you can connect a HD directly to it,avoiding the need to have a computer on all the time you want to listen to music.

StanleyB

01-12-2010, 08:17

The benefit of the Touch is that it will stream high resolution files.Plus,you can connect a HD directly to it,avoiding the need to have a computer on all the time you want to listen to music.
I had no idea that you can connect a hard disk to it. Does the HD needs to have its own power supply? And would I be able to play 192KHz files through the Touch?

Ali Tait

01-12-2010, 08:56

Yes,it needs to be mains powered Stan,as usb powered ones can cause dropouts and stuttering. I'm using a Drobo which works great. It won't play 192 though, 96 is the maximum.

Alex_UK

01-12-2010, 10:20

(I was going to ask the question on another forum anyway... but if one bought the Caiman what CD mechanism/player would you advise to go with it?)

As always, depends what your budget is - but as Stan has eluded too, as long as it has a digital output you will be half way there!

I personally have had great results with a Pioneer PD-S904 which uses the excellent Stable Platter mechanism - (the Eikos Precision is based on this player and uses this transport, which is a bit of an endorsement, IMO) - picked mine up mint and boxed for about £85 off ebay, and that is about the going rate. They are very reliable, and reasonably good looking albeit a bit old fashioned. You could spend more, but I doubt you would get much better sound just feeding a DAC without spending bigger. (I can't tell any difference between the Pioneer and my Marantz player used as a transport, which was around £700 if I remember correctly.)

Sure there will be other suggestions, and I haven't tried any other combinations to recommend.

StanleyB

01-12-2010, 10:21

It's a big shame that it can't process 192KHz. I am still on the look out for a stand alone device that can.

Jonboy

01-12-2010, 10:30

What do you think of this Stan i'm considering ordering one.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120638733498&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

StanleyB

01-12-2010, 10:43

Upsampling, like async USB, is bad. All those extra miraculous bits mysteriously appearing in the genuine audio data stream can cause a false sense of improvement. Some say they can hear extra detail with those methods. Of course you can. Extra added bits means extra added information.
But don't let me discourage you :).

Jonboy

01-12-2010, 11:10

Upsampling,

It does Upsampling via plugging in and out on the Daughter board so you can run it with either

But don't let me discourage you :).

At that money its worth a punt, they have a good following on DiyAudio

Ali Tait

01-12-2010, 12:02

Looks interesting.Let us know how you get on.

Jonboy

01-12-2010, 12:23

not sure whether to go for there own transformer or source one here, what do you think Ali ?
The chinese one will be running at its limit on 250 volts

Ali Tait

01-12-2010, 13:29

Get one here I'd say.At least you know it'll be specced for UK mains,and you won't get stung for the customs charges!

StanleyB

01-12-2010, 13:55

Customs charges are not that bad. It's about £30 on that value of order after adding the Parcelforce processing charge.

Ali Tait

01-12-2010, 14:10

Aye,but there's also the "handling charge" some add on. It's better in your pocket than theirs!

Jonboy

01-12-2010, 14:46

Customs charges are not that bad. It's about £30 on that value of order after adding the Parcelforce processing charge.

I forgot about that bit oh well.

technobear

01-12-2010, 16:41

The Squeezebox Touch has much lower noise and jitter than the Airport Express.

Bonky

01-12-2010, 17:56

The Squeezebox Touch has much lower noise and jitter than the Airport Express.

Hi, OK -thanks.
BW

Richard

magiccarpetride

01-12-2010, 19:34

Thanks for that - very informative..
...but (and I'm going to seem very 'thick' here)... what is the benefit of the Logitech Squeezebox Touch over the 3 airport express units I have? I can already stream (wirelessly) music from my Mac to the Sugden amp.

I used to wonder the same thing, being a bit skeptical that digital transport could make any audible difference. I was using Logitech Squeezebox Duet into the Beresford Caiman, and was extremely happy with the sound quality.

I decided to upgrade to Logitech Touch for the simple reason of wanting to enjoy the high definition (24 bit/96 kHz) music I've started accumulating. Once I plugged the Touch into the Caiman, I almost fell off my chair upon hearing the enormous improvement in the sound quality. There is no comparison -- Touch digital transfer is absolutely superior compared to the Duet digital transport. And it shows. It's probably due to the lower jitter/noise.

I would venture out to say that the differences will be much more drastic when going from the Mac airport express to the Touch.

Try it, you'll never look back.

Bonky

01-12-2010, 20:16

I used to wonder the same thing, being a bit skeptical that digital transport could make any audible difference. I was using Logitech Squeezebox Duet into the Beresford Caiman, and was extremely happy with the sound quality.

I decided to upgrade to Logitech Touch for the simple reason of wanting to enjoy the high definition (24 bit/96 kHz) music I've started accumulating. Once I plugged the Touch into the Caiman, I almost fell off my chair upon hearing the enormous improvement in the sound quality. There is no comparison -- Touch digital transfer is absolutely superior compared to the Duet digital transport. And it shows. It's probably due to the lower jitter/noise.

I would venture out to say that the differences will be much more drastic when going from the Mac airport express to the Touch.

Try it, you'll never look back.

Thanks, I feel an Amazon order coming...

However, I have heard that FLAC files are OK but that the unit has problems with Apple Lossless (Nearly all my itunes music on my iMac is ALAC) (?)
Thanks

BW

Richard

jbloggs

01-12-2010, 21:50

Thanks, I feel an Amazon order coming...

However, I have heard that FLAC files are OK but that the unit has problems with Apple Lossless (Nearly all my itunes music on my iMac is ALAC) (?)
Thanks

BW

Richard

Apple Lossless (ALAC) (http://www.logitech.com/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/5745#section=specs) is fully supported by the Touch (select "Spec's" tab->Audio Formats)...

Bonky

01-12-2010, 22:10

Apple Lossless (ALAC) (http://www.logitech.com/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/5745#section=specs) is fully supported by the Touch (select "Spec's" tab->Audio Formats)...

Hi, thanks.

I think I read somewhere that the extra processing power needed by the unit often meant it stuttered with ALAC. Is this not the case? (I hope not as I've set my heart on the Touch!)

BW

Rich

jbloggs

01-12-2010, 23:07

Hi, thanks.

I think I read somewhere that the extra processing power needed by the unit often meant it stuttered with ALAC. Is this not the case? (I hope not as I've set my heart on the Touch!)

BW

Rich

ALAC is "natively" supported by Touch so why would there be stuttering...?

FLAC doesn't stutter so why would ALAC?

Bonky

01-12-2010, 23:12

ALAC is "natively" supported by Touch so why would there be stuttering...?

FLAC doesn't stutter so why would ALAC?

OK; thanks; just reporting on what I'd read.

BW

Richard

Lee Henley

02-12-2010, 19:16

I cant vouch for many Dacs but I have the Dacmagic and find it a great piece of kit. Tried the £2k Naim Dac and did not find that much difference especially as the nDac is £2k and the DM is £230

Lee

technobear

02-12-2010, 19:34

Lee Henley

04-12-2010, 09:24

The Naim DAC is one of the least musical pieces of kit I have heard in recent times. It was completely uninvolving in all five of the diverse systems I have now heard it in.

I wasn't particularly impressed with the DACmagic either. I think the Caiman is a much better DAC for the same price.

Never tried the Caiman but might over the coming months, when I brought the DM it was a toss of a coin between the Caiman and the DM to be honest.

Im waiting for the Rega Dac and the Audiolab Dac to see what they are like before I make the next move, also interested to hear what the M2Tech is al about once they are available.

Lee

jmj

07-12-2010, 01:30

The Grand Wazoo

07-12-2010, 07:28

Hi Josh,
Welcome to the Art of Sound.
There are plenty of folks here who, I'm sure are more than capable & willing to give you the help you need.

.....but would you mind first dodging over to the Welcome area & starting a new thread there to introduce yourself, your system & musical tastes to us all, please?

Thanks a lot

Alex_UK

07-12-2010, 09:03

Hello all,

Hope no one minds if I hijacki this thread temporarily for my own purposes, but I would be interested in getting your opinions on how I might improve my current hi fi set up.

I have a Rega Planet mk1 which is mated to a 7520 Beresford Dac, which I have recently had Tirna Electronics upgrade. Early impressions are excellent, more details and better sound staging. I'm now thinking about changing the Planet for a better transport and I noticed that the Pioneer PD-S904 CD player has been recommended here.

Would this be a worthwhile upgrade and improve the quality of my system, what else should I consider? 95% of my music collection is on cds.

Thanks

Hi jmj - I believe it was me who recommended a PD-S904 on another thread to someone who was starting from scratch with no CD player (if I recall correctly) and for under £100 I would still say it would be a great transport and the Stable Platter Mechanism is both different (you place the CD label side down on a "turntable") and they are supposed to last well.

However, I'm not sure it would necessarily be an upgrade on your Rega - for ME - I struggled to notice much if any difference feeding a signal to my Caiman - whether I use my Marantz SACD/CD player, Laptop CD-Rom, PS3, Xbox360 or the PD-S904 they all sound very very similar to me, if not the same... I'm not saying transports don't make any difference, but... well, maybe I am! What I guess I am saying is that as long your DAC is getting a decent stream of 1s and 0s, that is all that matters... Much more subtle differences than tweaking the DAC, IMO...

:sofa:

DSJR

07-12-2010, 09:18

What makes you think the Rega Planet mk1 is lacking? OK, operationally it's not "the end," but if correctly sited (no suspension to speak of), it's stable and when the chaps at Acoustica (look at their website) looked at the Planet for mods, the comment was made that the machine was well designed and stable and not in need of major mods except to remove the ouput filter, which beggars up the output impedance. the Pioneer will certainly operate more slickly though.

jmj

07-12-2010, 22:48

Hello Chris,

Thanks for that, I have started a new thread as you suggested containing more information about me, my h-fi etc.

Dave/Alex thanks you also. The short response is that I don't think my Planet is lacking really, I'm very fond of the player. I was just interested to see what other people thought and if any notable improves could be made by replacing it?

Actually Alex have you seen this website: http://www.decdun.me.uk/upgradinghifi.html#upgradingcds.

The author makes quite a good argument that gains can be made by upgrading the transport amongst other thing. I was quite convinced anyway but then I am a bit of hi-fi novice.

StanleyB

07-12-2010, 23:25

The author makes quite a good argument that gains can be made by upgrading the transport amongst other thing. I was quite convinced anyway but then I am a bit of hi-fi novice.
Fortunately those arguments don't hold water anymore. Modern day technology, mainly as a result of the high accuracy required in order to play back DVD, has made it possible to achieve a high level of accuracy with even cheap mechanisms. The key ingredient is the laser pickup, not the transport. Some of the high end CD pickups cost a small fortune, and are predominantly three beam laser types.

jmj

08-12-2010, 22:13

Hello Stan,

Thanks for your posting. Are you saying therefore that unless I go for a very expensive cd transport/player I won't see much difference? I did buy the Planet in the late 1990s so wouldn’t a more modern player make some difference?

Also, I wanted to thank you for recommending Tirna Electronics. I used them to upgrade my Beresford Dac tl-7520 and the improvements are impressive. Notably, more details and better sound staging.

Josh