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View Full Version : Mike New platter, Oyaide MJ-12 mat & STB-MS stabiliser arrive at Marco Towers...



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Marco
24-11-2010, 11:26
{Posts here relating to the MN platter and Oyaide were moved from an earlier off-topic discussion in S.O.G: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=165025#post165025 }

--------------------------------------------------------

The Oyaide mat and clamp have now arrived, and my customised Mike New platter has now left Sydney....

Full report on all three soon (and also the copper mat) in a separate thread in Analogue Art, so don't miss it folks! :)

Marco.

MCRU
28-11-2010, 19:17
Marco,
I would be interested to hear what a Delrin clamp sounds like instead of Aluminium, I used Pulsar Points in my system for years and when I read about the developments in resonance control over the years (and being a rubber and plastics engineer for 20 years) I started experimenting with Acetal (Delrin) instead of aluminium for equipment supports and on my system acetal sounded better, I have 2 record weights/clamps on the drawing board to be made in acetal at the moment and will send you a prototype when they are done.

I put 3 acetal supports under my Lenco and am listening to see what the effects are compared to the points which I previously used.

Marco
28-11-2010, 20:21
Hi David,

Cheers. I'll look forward to that, mate! :)

Meanwhile, here's a pic of the Oyaide mat and record weight in situ:


http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7889/img0029sw.jpg (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/img0029sw.jpg/)


Doing its job nicely on the Techie (with a DL-103 on an Ortofon LH-9000 magnesium & carbon fibre headshell and Jelco SA-750D tonearm):


http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9487/img0030es.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/img0030es.jpg/)


Copper mat with Bruil record weight:


http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8731/img0031tq.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/img0031tq.jpg/)


A selection of some of the best cartridges known to man (left to right - Ortofon SPU Classic GM, Decca London Gold, EMT TSD-15):


http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8043/img0032lm.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/i/img0032lm.jpg/)


Tomorrow my Mike New platter will arrive, and then the fun begins..... May the best man, erm, mat - erm, platter, win!! :cool:

Marco.

Barry
28-11-2010, 20:29
Hi David,

Cheers. I'll look forward to that, mate! :)

Meanwhile, here's a pic of the Oyaide mat and record weight in situ:


http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7889/img0029sw.jpg (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/img0029sw.jpg/)


Doing its job nicely on the Techie (with a DL-103 on an Ortofon LH-9000 magnesium/carbon fibre headshell and Jelco SA-750D tonearm):


http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9487/img0030es.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/img0030es.jpg/)


Copper mat with Bruil record weight:


http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8731/img0031tq.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/img0031tq.jpg/)


A selection of some of the best cartridges known to man (left to right - Ortofon SPU Classic GM, Decca London Gold, EMT TSD-15):


http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8043/img0032lm.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/i/img0032lm.jpg/)


Tomorrow my Mike New platter will arrive, and then the fun begins..... May the best man, erm, mat, erm, platter, win!! :cool:

Marco.

Wahay Marco - whereforth thou cometh the digital camera?

Regards

Marco
28-11-2010, 20:35
Hi Barry,

I decided to move (ever so slightly) into the 21st century!

You likey? :)

Marco.

MCRU
28-11-2010, 20:55
The Oyaide mat and weight does look quite impressive, pity you have to cover it up with a record mate! This forum is quite fun isn't it, pity it took me so long to find it, missed out on an SL1200 today for £100, my TT hoarding days are back, vinyl is dead, long live vinyl!

MCRU
28-11-2010, 21:04
Marco,
Seems your obsession knows no bounds and I for one applaud you, there are some serious omissions from your analogue armory I think, unless you know different mate?

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Oyaide/HSR_CU_540.jpg

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Oyaide/HS_TF_540new.jpg

Reid Malenfant
28-11-2010, 21:04
The Oyaide mat and weight does look quite impressive
It looks like a Harley Davidson V-Rod brake disc :eyebrows:

Nice, but my brain tells me a copper mat should be better due to it's softer nature & more natural damping. Annealed copper should improve things still further but only time will tell ;)

Yep, that's one pretty mat & the record weight just looks the dogs danglies, though why they should be attractive i have no idea :scratch:

:lol:

MartinT
28-11-2010, 21:25
Nice pics, Marco, well done for finally obtaining a decent digital camera :)

Marco
28-11-2010, 22:01
Hi David,

Cheers. Yes, you could say I like to dot all the i's and cross the t's! ;)


Marco,
Seems your obsession knows no bounds and I for one applaud you, there are some serious omissions from your analogue armory I think, unless you know different mate?

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Oyaide/HSR_CU_540.jpg

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Oyaide/HS_TF_540new.jpg

No doubt the Oyaide headshell and leads are superb, but the Denon DL-103 needs the extra mass of the Ortofon (16.8g) for optimum sonic performance. The Oyaide is quite a bit lighter.

I may buy one though for another cartridge I'm thinking of trying which doesn't need as much mass :)

Marco.

Marco
28-11-2010, 22:05
Hi Martin,


Nice pics, Marco, well done for finally obtaining a decent digital camera

Cheers, mate - it's been long overdue... My MN platter will be the next thing to be photographed tomorrow :)

Then the mat/platter listening tests will begin in ernest! Meanwhile, here's a pic of that naughty valve amp you heard chez-toi earlier in the year:


http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/4669/img0025ol.jpg (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/img0025ol.jpg/)


Marco.

Rare Bird
28-11-2010, 22:37
It looks like a Harley Davidson V-Rod brake disc :eyebrows:

Nice, but my brain tells me a copper mat should be better due to it's softer nature & more natural damping. Annealed copper should improve things still further but only time will tell ;)



I think i mentioned it before a thick copper mat with a series of holes would be the ticketo. I'd have thought anozising the copper mat would serve the obvious purposes aswell give it a slightly harder finish!

Marco
28-11-2010, 22:52
Hi dude,

I don't disagree, apart from perhaps anodising the copper mat on the MN platter, as Mike thought it may adversely alter its sonic characteristics, so I chose to not take the risk and leave it 'as is' :)

However, initial listening tests indicate that the ultimate solution is likely to be my customised Mike New platter and annealed copper mat, with an Oyaide mat and record weight on top!! :eyebrows:

I suspect that may be the case, because the sound with the copper and Oyaide mat together, and Oyaide weight, (with the stock platter) is awesome and arguably the best solution so far.... :doh:

The above smiley is because it's also the most bloody expensive! An MN platter, Oyaide and record weight is, erm, let's not go there, but you could buy a decent whole new T/T for what it costs!!

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHH...... Sorry, it's just the sound of my Amex expressing its severe displeasure.

Incidentally, I meant to say earlier, my thanks go to David Brook from Mains Cables R Us for sourcing me the Oyaide mat and record weight. David is a genuine enthusiast first and foremost, and all-round top bloke (just the sort of trade people we like here), whom I suspect will have a very bright future on AoS!

I would encourage you all to get to know him, his company, and the excellent products he sells :cool:

Marco.

colinB
28-11-2010, 23:06
Glad to see David here on AOS. Read his posts in the past on another forum and as you say Marco , a genuine enthusiast and will look forward to his input on AOS.

Marco
29-11-2010, 10:29
Well, the Mike New platter has just arrived, safe and sound... Looks FAB!

Now to fit it, and let the fun begin!! :partytime:

Pics later, chaps!

Marco.

chris@panteg
29-11-2010, 10:52
Is it easy to fit it then Marco ' just a straight swap ! no need for the stiffening plate ?

Marco
29-11-2010, 11:03
Hi Chris,

I'm trying it without the "stiffening plate" (bearing base plate) first to see what the platter (and T/T) sounds like without it. I will then get the plate later, once I know what the platter itself is doing, so I can analyse the sonic effect of the plate in isolation.

Gotta be thorough, ya know, in case anyone asks me what effect the bearing base plate has on its own! ;)

Here are the instructions for fitting the platter. I might give Mike a ring later at a decent hour his time, just to make sure I've done everything ok.


Installation Instructions for Alluminium Platter

Date: 18-7-19
Author:- Mike New mhnew@bigpond.net.au

Alluminium is a very soft metal and this platter should be handled carefully to avoid any dents to the surface or edges.

Screwed into the three holes inside the counter bored recess on the underside of the Platter, are three button head socket screws, these are for the securing of the magnet assembly to the platter. Use only these screws.

The installation of this new platter assumes that you are currently using an external power supply and have installed my new High Precision bearing.

Tools required: Phillips screwdriver and Allen key to fit 4mm socket head screws.

Two 8mm holes are provided in the top surface of the platter to facilitate lifting the platter on and off the spindle. Ordinary 8mm hex bolts or socket heads of about 40mmm length is all that is required to secure a firm grip.
Two 8mm bolts are supplied.

a) Switch off the power supply to the SL1200 and remove the Technics platter in the normal way by lifting off from the taper.

b) Now remove the top plastic cover and the old power supply components if these are still installed.

c) Note: The top plastic cover must not be re-fitted to the Turn Table as it will fowl the new platter.

d) Take the Technics platter and place upside-down onto a flat surface covered by a soft cloth or towel. Obtain the correct size Phillips screwdriver and carefully remove the three screws securing the magnet assembly to the centre of the old platter. These may be very tight as they were installed by power driven tools.

e) Now put the old platter to one side and place the new platter onto the flat surface underside up. You will notice that there is a red spot engraved on the inner ring of the platter.

f) Remove the three dome headed screws with the correct size Allen Key.

g) Take the magnet assembly and place into the central bore of the platter so that the larger of the four holes in the plate aligns with the red spot. The three securing holes form a triangle, the forth hole is the one which should align with the red spot.

h) Now secure the magnet assembly in place using the three button head socket screws supplied, use the correct size Allen key.

i) Tighten the three screws progressively for even clamping of the Magnet assembly.

j) Carefully turn over the platter so that the top side is now exposed. Insert the two lifting bolts and tighten by hand only. Do not use a spanner!!

k) Top up the oil in the top of the bearing with four drops of the oil supplied and place a coating of Vaseline or silicone grease onto the tapered part of the spindle.

l) Holding the two lifting bolts, carefully lower the platter onto the spindle taper. To ensure correct alignment place one eye over the hole in the platter and site the taper as you lower the platter. Gently push the platter down with a finger in all directions.

m) Now spin the platter by hand and check for any vertical miss-alignment. If any miss-alignment is obvious then gently lift platter off taper and re-seat it. Due to the now greatly increased weight of the platter it is not always possible, first time, to get the platter to seat squarely onto the relatively small taper. This is why the grease on the taper is recommended! It also allows easier removal.

n) Now switch on the unit and test for correct operation.

o) Note: You may require to increase the braking current by adjusting the brake Potentiometer by about ¼ turn.

p) Any type of Mat may be used with this platter, although existing users tell me that the Larry Denham copper mat produces fantastic results. This combination can be further improved with the use of a softer neoprene or silicon top mat, such as those advertised.

Happy Listening.


Seems pretty straightforward, though. I shall report back with initial impressions on a separate thread later tonight (moving a few off-topic posts from here in the process)! :cool:

Marco.

MartinT
29-11-2010, 11:28
The platter installation process is straightforward and swapping the circular magnet assembly is probably the trickiest step, so it shouldn't take more than 1/2 hour.

The base plate installation is something else and not for the faint of heart. I documented it in another thread hereabouts. Ah yes, see here, post #60:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7203&highlight=Base+Plate&page=6

Marco
29-11-2010, 12:35
Platter successfully fitted... I'm now off for a good listen - I may be a wee while! :cool:

Marco.

Barry
29-11-2010, 12:37
Platter successfully fitted... I'm now off for a good listen - I may be a wee while! :cool:

Marco.

I can recommend a cartridge you could listen to Marco! :eyebrows:

Regards

Marco
29-11-2010, 12:51
All in good time, old chap.

Right now, I have to get my head around what the platter is doing, and also all the mats and combinations of such, using a well-known reference, cartridge-wise.

It'll take around a week to do this properly, as there will be lots of swapping back and forth with everything, including eventually returning to the stock platter with Oyaide mat and matching weight (and copper mat), to see whether any improvements heard with MN platter were real or imagined.

However, I will post my initial (non-conclusive) impressions of the MN platter later! :)

Marco.

colinB
29-11-2010, 15:04
Im curious as to how important the Oyaide stabilizer is with the platter, and if its any better than just using a standard aluminium weight. I would be surprised if it did.

Marco
29-11-2010, 15:26
Hi Colin,

That's one of the things I'll be testing. I've already compared the Bruil (I believe aluminium) weight to the Oyaide, using the stock platter with both copper and Oyaide mats, and it was a no-contest, sonically, in favour of the Oyaide.

I suspect that there's something unique in the design and construction of the Oyaide record weight, especially when used in conjunction with its own mat, that is responsible for the way it improves the sonic reproduction of information on records.

The first thing I'm going to do is listen to the effect of the MN platter on its own with the Oyaide record weight, and then I'll remove the Oyaide weight and use the Bruil.

After that, I'll pop the Oyaide mat and record weight on top of the MN platter (obviously resetting VTA, etc, beforehand) and see what effect that has.

It's all interesting stuff!

I'm just about to have a bite to eat, and then testing will begin :cool:

Marco.

colinB
29-11-2010, 15:54
Interesting. I was reading on sound fountain about the properties of hard concave mats with a TT weight and the improvement of warped records using such a set up. Unlike some vinyl veterans on here im slowly building a collection , some of which are new releases or heavy weight reissues and disturbingly , many are warped. Seems to defeat the object setting up your arm and cart when the thing is bobbing up and down trying to stick to the grooves.
I use a copper clamp , a bit like the Michel one but heavier and it improves things a bit but its not a perfect solution.

MCRU
29-11-2010, 17:54
Nice one Marco, waiting with baited breath!

MartinT
29-11-2010, 18:23
For my understanding: does the Oyaide take the record directly, i.e. without a further mat? Does that mean our Achromats could already be superceded?

Marco
29-11-2010, 18:49
Yes it does. It's either an Achromat or an Oyaide. The Oyaide is effectively the record mat. Various pics of mats and MN platter coming in a mo! :)

Marco.

Marco
29-11-2010, 19:01
MN platter with annealed copper mat on its own in situ:


http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6878/img00360.jpg (http://img545.imageshack.us/i/img00360.jpg/)


http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2668/img0037ti.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/i/img0037ti.jpg/)


And in use with the Oyaide record weight:


http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5348/img0040avf.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/img0040avf.jpg/)


And with Bruil record weight:


http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2686/img0046xo.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/i/img0046xo.jpg/)


Oyaide mat, copper mat, and some records:


http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9605/img0051vj.jpg (http://img213.imageshack.us/i/img0051vj.jpg/)


Ubiquitous 'arty' shot of mats:


http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2263/img0049nt.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/i/img0049nt.jpg/)


Initial impressions, sonically, to follow! :cool:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
29-11-2010, 19:17
:popcorn:


Regards D S D L

Reid Malenfant
29-11-2010, 19:19
Ubiquitous 'arty' shot of mats:


http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2263/img0049nt.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/i/img0049nt.jpg/)
It still looks like a drilled brake disc to me, albeit a very pretty one :eyebrows:

Marco
29-11-2010, 19:22
Lol - indeed.... It's much lighter, though.

The MN platter really looks the biz in the flesh! Sounds not, erm, three bad either!! :eek:

Neil,

I'm having my dinner at the moment and then watching some TV, so you'll have to munch on yer popcorn for a bit yet! ;)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
29-11-2010, 19:37
:(



Regards D S D L

Marco
29-11-2010, 20:03
In the meantime, here's a wee pic of the Paul Hynes SR5-21 (best PSU for the Techie by a country mile) and my TD mains filter/Furutech-modded MG mains leads/MG Furutech-modded block, to keep you amused:


http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1039/img0042m0.jpg (http://img405.imageshack.us/i/img0042m0.jpg/)


http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8386/img0045p0.jpg (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/img0045p0.jpg/)

:)


Marco.

John
29-11-2010, 20:19
Marco Site Owner/Administrator and now digital Camera wizz ;):lol::ner:

Techno Commander
29-11-2010, 20:29
I'm having my dinner at the moment and then watching some TV, so you'll have to munch on yer popcorn for a bit yet! ;)

Marco.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/sillystuff99/Animations/Garfield.gif

Marco
29-11-2010, 20:47
Hehehe... Lovin' it chaps! :lol:

Here's a pic of SS amps very similar to the ones I used before I went all valvey....


http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/9504/post21085141423.jpg (http://img815.imageshack.us/i/post21085141423.jpg/)


http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/5356/post21085141654.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/i/post21085141654.jpg/)

200W per channel brute powerhouses with 1500VA transformers in each monoblock. Can you imagine that a (then) 30W copper valve amp trounced them (awesome as they were)? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
29-11-2010, 20:53
Can you imagine that a (then) 30W copper valve amp trounced them (awesome as they were)? :eyebrows:

Marco.
Yes, you just need to say it's pure class A & low feedback ;) Numbers mean didley squat in this game as i'm sure you are more than well aware :eyebrows:

colinB
29-11-2010, 20:58
Love to see a pic inside the Paul hynes psu sometime Marco please.

Marco
29-11-2010, 21:05
I'll need to ask Paul's permission first, mate :)

Yes, Mark, you're right. The copper amp's got much more overall grunt and headroom - and the ECS/Stealths weren't exactly lacking in that department!!

Marco.

colinB
29-11-2010, 21:24
I was planning on going for the paul hynes 3 as a DIY kit Marco , but ive been holding of for the 5. For a confidence boost i would like to peer into one to see how tough it might be.

Marco
29-11-2010, 21:33
I'm sure it can be arranged, Colin. Leave it with me :)

Marco.

Paul Hynes
30-11-2010, 12:24
Hi Marco,

I have no objection to photos of the inside being posted. I am building Martin’s SR5 this week and can take a few photos of the construction for you if that helps.

I’m pleased you are enjoying using the power supply. There is more to come as the initial trial splitting the internal supplies has now been started. The SR5 remains a crucial part of this further upgrade so it will not be made redundant when the internal power supply modifications are made.

I will post more on this when I have a field trial report of the complete upgrade from a volunteer who has been helping with the trial.

I think you will be drinking some more beer. :cool:

Regards
Paul

Welder
30-11-2010, 12:49
I’m going to ask a silly question now……………………..:doh:
Those record clamps and platter mats look like they add a considerable amount of weight.
Do you need to up-rate the spindle drive motor or does the standard Techie motor cope okay with what looks like a big increase in the moment of inertia at startup? :scratch:

Marco
30-11-2010, 13:54
Ok, guys, I was up until 2am this morning (!) listening to music with the MN platter in place, using the Bruil record weight in conjunction with it for the moment. As you'll have probably guessed, I wouldn't have been up until that time had I not been enjoying what I was hearing - and enjoy it I did.....:eek:

The first thing you notice when placing a record on the MN platter, and the Bruil weight put on top, is how much less the Techie now looks like a 'DJ deck'. Not that this bothered me before, although I never liked the look of the strobe markings, but the SL-1210 now appears altogether more purposeful and serious, signalling in advance its menacing musical intent!


http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2668/img0037ti.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/i/img0037ti.jpg/)


One of the main reasons why I wanted Mike's platter was to remove the adverse sonic effect of the stock platter being so flimsy and resonant (even when some types of mat are used), and once a record together with the Bruil weight are placed on top, you are met with a dull thud when rapping the side of the platter with your knuckles, therefore in terms of that aspect things, it was job done. I also had an inkling how sonically significant that was going to be....

As soon as the stylus hit the record (on The Pretty Things 'Midnight to Six' album), noise from the lead-in groove was significantly less than I'd heard before, thus allowing the music to emerge from a quieter backdrop, and so when it issued forth, what I was presented with took my breath away!

The sonic presentation of the SL-1210 now has a power and authority, together with a sense of ease and lack of strain that I've never before experienced. As good as the deck was previously, with it already being extensively modified and upgraded elsewhere, when the stock platter was in place (with any mat), there was a tendency for some material to become 'shouty' and for the overall presentation to lack a little subtlety - and with it the sense that music was being artificially processed, rather than delivered as a genuinely credible and real performance.

This rather annoying 'signature' had always been present no matter the effect of upgrading the PSU, tonearm, mat or feet - until now.

With the Mike New platter in place, gone is the somewhat 'clangy' and sometimes slightly 'over-insistent' presentation of the Techie, and with it the tendency for voices to sound 'shiny' and a little metallic. What one gets now is real depth, emotional expression and tonal colour, which when framed within the significant reduction in the T/Ts overall noisefloor, combines to create a palpable sense of realism.

Quite simply, with the Mike New platter in place, the Techie has finally 'grown up' and thrown off the shackles of its somewhat uncouth exuberance, and more than ever now, has become a genuine (and serious) hi-end turntable. It is now crystal clear to me just how much the flimsy and resonant 'bell-like' stock platter influences the sonic performance of the superb Technics motor unit, and how this effect manifests itself on music.

I feel that this is where the real sonic improvements of the Mike New platter lie (greater mechanical integrity and lower resonance), rather than anything necessarily to do with increased mass, as it fundamentally addresses the deficiencies in the design of the stock platter. Remove those, and the superb Quartz controlled D/D motor and control circuitry take the extra mass of the MN platter in their stride (from initial start-up onwards) and deliver a musical presentation with uncanny realism that engages and beguiles one in a way which almost defies belief.

As such, it is difficult to believe that any turntable which costs less than a footballer's wife's entire handbag and shoe collection could reproduce music more faithfully, and the Mike New platter plays an integral role in achieving this. Make no mistake: the fundamentally beneficial sonic effects of this platter are immediately obvious and cannot be replicated with upgrades to the T/T elsewhere.

If achieving the ultimate performance from your SL-1200 or 1210 is something you genuinely aspire to, then fitting an MN platter is a prerequisite, presuming you have already fitted an MN bearing and are using a high current capacity PSU, such as the Paul Hynes SR5-21, or similar. Further enquiries regarding the platter should be made by email to Mike New at: mhnew@bigpond.net.au

It'll be interesting to find out if the annealed copper mat on top of my MN platter provides any additional sonic benefits over the standard version, which based on my experiences of the superb standalone copper T/T mat, I suspect will be the case. However, all will be revealed in that respect when I go down to Martin's place and we do some back-to-back comparisons.

Ok, it's time for some lunch now, and later more extended listening, where I will begin my in-depth comparisons of the MN platter against the Oyaide mat and record stabiliser combo, and also the copper mat, using the stock platter. I will also try the Oyaide mat with stabiliser on top of the MN platter, the effect of which should be interesting........

Hopefully those of you who are thinking of upgrading the Techie mats or platters on your own decks will have found my observations interesting so far! :cool:

Marco.

MCRU
30-11-2010, 15:24
How much is this MN platter mate?

Marco
30-11-2010, 15:27
Hi Paul,


I have no objection to photos of the inside being posted. I am building Martin’s SR5 this week and can take a few photos of the construction for you if that helps.


Nice one, mate. Please do, and post them on a separate thread for Colin :)


I’m pleased you are enjoying using the power supply.


Cheers, Paul. It's the best power supply I've heard for the Techie - and a big upgrade on my previous Timestep PSU.


There is more to come as the initial trial splitting the internal supplies has now been started. The SR5 remains a crucial part of this further upgrade so it will not be made redundant when the internal power supply modifications are made.


So I believe, and I can't wait to hear the results! ;)

I'm glad the SR5 is an integral part of the forthcoming modifications, as it gives the SL-1200/1210 a level of openness and musical insight that is absent with other PSUs I've used.


I will post more on this when I have a field trial report of the complete upgrade from a volunteer who has been helping with the trial.

I think you will be drinking some more beer.


Hehehe... Now you're definitely talking my language!!

I look forward to reading your report in due course :cool:

Marco.

Marco
30-11-2010, 15:43
Hi David,


How much is this MN platter mate?

The new price is $950 (approx £595) :)

I believe the annealed copper mat is extra.

Marco.

Marco
30-11-2010, 15:52
Hi John,


I’m going to ask a silly question now……………………..
Those record clamps and platter mats look like they add a considerable amount of weight.
Do you need to up-rate the spindle drive motor or does the standard Techie motor cope okay with what looks like a big increase in the moment of inertia at startup?

The use of the MN platter presumes the existence already of Mike's high-precision bearing, and a high current capacity PSU (such as the Paul Hynes SR5-21) in order to facilitate the effect of the extra mass the platter puts on the whole turntable.

As for your concerns about the drive motor, initially I also shared them, but in use the platter appears to cause no noticeable problems for the motor, and gets up the correct speed in seconds in the normal way.

There is definitely no sense that the motor or control circuitry are 'labouring' in any way under the extra mass of the much heavier MN platter :)

Marco.

colinB
30-11-2010, 17:06
Glad your enjoying the new platter Marco, and thanks to you and Paul for pics of the PSU. No rush Paul. Bit pathetic but if it looks as easy as Leo's psu3 then i know i can build it.

DSJR
30-11-2010, 20:08
Have you changed your Techie in recent times Marco? I thought it was a silver one before.

Perhaps it would be prudent to buy a good used standard version with which to compare just how far you've taken it?

Marco
30-11-2010, 20:28
Hi Dave,

No, it's always been a 1210MK5G. Good idea. I might do that - it would act, as you say, as a useful point of reference :)

Btw, today I fitted Barry's EMT TSD-15 cartridge, with a super fine-line stylus, and bloody hell, does it LOVE the Lentek!!! :eek:

I've got to say this *could* be the best cartridge I've heard so far, pipping the SPU and Decca in terms of its sheer power and transient attack, but I need to listen to it with a variety of music first before I come to any conclusions.

However, based on what I've heard so far, it's highly likely that I'll be adding a TSD-15 (with Ortofon adaptor) to my cartridge collection sooner rather than later!

Here's a loving close-up of the beast in action, playing some 80s 12" singles (observe Shuggie's bespoke Jelco arm collar, too, in the background):


http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4060/img0088d.jpg (http://img230.imageshack.us/i/img0088d.jpg/)


I'm sure that the BBC used these at one point during the 80s in their Radio 1 broadcasting studios on EMT 950s, similar to this:


http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6034/64607377.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/i/64607377.jpg/)


:)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
30-11-2010, 20:29
Have you changed your Techie in recent times Marco? I thought it was a silver one before.

Perhaps it would be prudent to buy a good used standard version with which to compare just how far you've taken it?

Hi Dave

Its mine that is silver.


Regards D S D L

Marco
30-11-2010, 20:39
Did you enjoy reading my initial impressions of the platter, Neil? Hope your popcorn didn't get too soggy! :)

Marco.

John
30-11-2010, 20:49
I think you will have to try all carts once you found the combination that works best I guess to many changes to really evaluate right now

Marco
30-11-2010, 20:57
Yes you're right, John. That's why I'm not reaching any rash conclusions, but let's just say that the early signs are VERY impressive!

TBH, I just can't believe how good my Techie's sounding now I've fitted the MN platter. It's not a cheap upgrade by any means (although Mike isn't really making that much from them - I know the costs), but bloody hell, is it worthwhile......

Tell you what, I've never heard an SP10 sound like this!

Marco (a very happy bunny) :)

Spectral Morn
30-11-2010, 21:11
Did you enjoy reading my initial impressions of the platter, Neil? Hope your popcorn didn't get too soggy! :)

Marco.

Yes all very interesting. Like many reading this I am very keen to reach the end of this phase of your journey and read your conclusions.


Regards D S D L

MCRU
30-11-2010, 21:57
80's 12" Singles, now you are talking Marco, I have roughly 2000 of those babies and they are going nowhere!

MCRU
30-11-2010, 22:02
I think Neil is trying to say politely hurry up and get on with it!

Is this platter going to end up as a scooby snack with a platter, copper mat and then oyaide mat then a record then a clamp.....:lolsign:

Tarzan
30-11-2010, 22:15
Never heard an SP10 sound like this, that is quite a statement Marco:)

MartinT
30-11-2010, 22:18
As for your concerns about the drive motor, initially I also shared them, but in use the platter appears to cause no noticeable problems for the motor, and gets up the correct speed in seconds in the normal way.

My observation too, the extra mass of the MN platter doesn't cause the motor any undue concern. As has been observed many times previously, DJs give the motor a much harder time.

Marco
30-11-2010, 22:41
Hahaha... Guys, you'll have to be patient before I reach any definitive conclusions with mats, as this is something that takes time to do right. I should have reached a pretty firm conclusion by the weekend :)

At the moment it's looking like the best mat to use with the stock platter is the Oyaide (with its stabiliser), but the copper mat and Achromat all have their plus points, and after all it's all about achieving the right synergy in different systems, so I can only give a snapshot of what might be expected.

The huge sonic improvement of the Mike New platter though is a no-brainer. I will obviously revisit the stock platter again, because I have to, but once you've heard what Mike's platter does, there no way you'd go back to the stock platter, no matter what mat was used with it.

The fact is no mat, no matter how good, can override the fundamental design flaws of the platter itself. In effect, all you are doing is papering over the cracks!


Never heard an SP10 sound like this, that is quite a statement Marco


Hi Andy, well I've heard enough good ones in my time to be able to judge! ;)

Quite simply, my SL-1210 is now performing sonically on a different level to any SP10 I've heard. There's no question in my mind about that. I heard the same with Martin's T/T (connected with the SR5 PSU) when I was at his place earlier in the year. This is genuinely jaw-dropping stuff.

Marco.

P.S David, I love 80s pop music - it was *so* my era! However, I listen to all sorts these days. The other thing is that 12" singles then were more often than not very well recorded, and sound absolutely stunning played on a quality direct-drive T/T, able to fully maximise their massive dynamic range!

chris@panteg
30-11-2010, 22:53
Hi Marco

Very good write up ' and well done with the piccies , now that is a bold statement ! it might upset Guy you know ;) you might have to invite him round for a bake off:).

The stiffening plate is now a must then surely ? , for me its not really feasable to upgrade to a MN platter and bearing at the moment ! well over £1000 , but very interested in your final conclusions all the same .

As a side note ' i'm shortly to meet up with Richard of vantage audio with a view to service and modify my other Techie deck (SLQL1) i'm very keen to keep this little 2nd deck in tip top order .

MCRU
30-11-2010, 23:02
You must be seriously into your vinyl to spend these amounts of wonga just on up-grades when a shiny new GOOD analogue spinner can be purchased for similar amounts! IMHO of course and as an SL1200/1210 owner for many years (being an ex-dj of course), it was a good deck back in the 80's and still is now!

Maybe I have 2 or 3 in my loft I may have to get back up there!

I would like to know if the Oyaide mat and weight is any good on my new Lenco though.

Spectral Morn
30-11-2010, 23:06
I think Neil is trying to say politely hurry up and get on with it!

The evaluation process takes as long as it takes.

Obviously I am keen to read all of Marco's conclusions at the end but the journey is also interesting.


Regards D S D L

Marco
30-11-2010, 23:07
Hi Chris,

Thanks for that. Guy knows he's welcome to come anytime for a bake-off, as he's been here a few times on the way back from the Audio T Manchester city centre show :)

His is about the best SP10 I've heard. The trouble is though it always has a huge advantage by having an SME V and (£2500?) Audio Note Io Ltd fitted to it! :eek:

Therefore it's more about trying to analyse what the respective T/Ts themselves are doing. Prior to fitting the Mike New platter and Paul Hynes SR5 PSU, I always felt that a good SP10 had the edge on my modified SL-1210, but the effect that the combination of those two items has had, in my opinion, has now more than levelled the playing field.

Good luck with the SLQL1. That sounds like a fun project in the making. Next time you speak with Richard, ask him to join AoS - I've been wanting to get him here for ages, where his knowledge and experience would be invaluable to our members :cool:

Marco.

chris@panteg
30-11-2010, 23:22
Will do Marco ' all being well it will be this saturday ! weather permitting :)

Richard has made some suggestions to improve this little deck which sound really interesting ! he knows his stuff alright .

Marco
30-11-2010, 23:55
Hi David,


You must be seriously into your vinyl to spend these amounts of wonga just on up-grades when a shiny new GOOD analogue spinner can be purchased for similar amounts!


Indeed - and I also made that very point earlier.

The answer is of course a resounding 'yes', but the whole point of upgrading the Techie to this (some would say absurd) level, is to expose its latent potential and realise just how good the Quartz-controlled D/D motor unit is (in terms of its highly accurate speed stability), and how fundamentally important this is in terms of faithfully reproducing musical information on vinyl.

In my view, if the platter on your turntable isn't rotating at a constantly accurate speed under load, then the game's a bogey from the off!

This has been said many times before, but if the likes of SME or Michell were to produce a direct-drive motor unit of comparable quality today, it would cost thousands of pounds - and that's before any arms or cartridges were fitted to a finished turntable!

Therefore, I've always viewed an SL-1200/1210 as being merely the donor of the motor unit, and so all stock ancillaries are expendable in the pursuit of extracting maximum performance from the motor unit by replacing them with items likely to achieve that aim, which is typically where Mike New's products come in.

Once done, a suitably modified SL-1200/1210 will compete with (and in some areas outperform) recognised 'hi-end' turntables from established hi-fi manufacturers at many times the cost of whatever modifications are carried out. And *that* is the whole point of the exercise...

As an example, I've so far spent around £3.5k on my modded SL-1210, but I wouldn't hesitate to put it up against 'audiophile badged' turntables up to £15k and perhaps beyond, in the very same way as I would do with my modified vintage Tannoys, and many much more expensive speakers made now.

At the end of the day, it's about achieving the highest sound-per-pound value, because *that*, my friends, is one of the best ways to ensure long-term system satisfaction! :cool:

Marco.

MCRU
01-12-2010, 08:49
System satisfaction is what it is all about matey.

Marco
01-12-2010, 08:57
Indeed. So when are you gonna fettle one of yer Techies? Get 'em down from that loft, boy, and discover how good they sound in a proper hi-fi system! :eyebrows:

Marco.

DSJR
01-12-2010, 11:42
David, The Lenco bearing may not be up to too much extra mass and some of them wobble.....

The SL1200 series has the benefit of a pretty solid plinth. I'm really not sure whether the lower caste Technics decks from the 80's would be up to anything other than a mat and foot upgrade tbh.

MCRU
01-12-2010, 19:07
According to one of my serious anorak friends the SME 5 is the best arm for the SL1200, any opinions? Don't need to look in the loft now as a Garrard 401 is up for grabs (I hope soon).

Instead of spending wonga on the Oyaide Mat and Weight I may just but the Garrard instead and add it to my collection of vinyl spinners.

Gerry
01-12-2010, 19:34
Don't need to look in the loft now as a Garrard 401 is up for grabs (I hope soon).

Instead of spending wonga on the Oyaide Mat and Weight I may just but the Garrard instead and add it to my collection of vinyl spinners.

The Garrard is a lovely machine. I have a a 301 which sits along side two fairly hefty/serious DDs. There is something about the musicality which keeps making me go back to it. I use a Grace G960 12" uni-pivot with a 103R...real music. Certain records just sound better on the Garrard.

Go for it!

MartinT
01-12-2010, 19:47
According to one of my serious anorak friends the SME 5 is the best arm for the SL1200, any opinions?

I'll offer up my DV507-II for a duel at dawn...

MCRU
01-12-2010, 19:53
I'll offer up my DV507-II for a duel at dawn...

the said anorak lives in port talbot if it's anywhere near you bud?

I am so excited by this forum and the analogue section that I am seriously contemplating going back out to all the 2nd hand shops and markets that I visited in earnest in my teens to track down those elusive vintage hi-fi items!

Back then they were not Vintage though!

Plenty of markets, cash converters etc up north but not as many as down sarff!

MartinT
01-12-2010, 20:41
the said anorak lives in port talbot if it's anywhere near you bud?

'fraid not, certainly not in this weather :(

Darren
02-12-2010, 00:11
Is it just me who sees a lot a parallels here with Marco's efforts to enhance the performance of his Technics and Tom Fletcher's research?
I know we are talking belt drive vs direct drive but Tom's better turntables have always featured more massy platters of more than one material and bearings of enhanced quality.
As already mentioned.... Is it not going to be the case that new platter plus copper mat, plus Oyaide mat and record weight turns out to be the killer combo and how much of this will be down to simple mass?
Buying the heavy kit for my first Spacedeck was, at the time, a large upgrade than going from a £100 mm to a £700 mc.
It's all very interesting.....

Marco
02-12-2010, 10:00
Guys,

I've moved the last two posts regarding the supposed discontinuation of the SL-1210/1210 to the relevant discussion here:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8210&page=4

Let's keep this thread on-topic. I will comment on the latest entries here later :)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables
02-12-2010, 16:58
Marco,

Any further information regarding your experiments with Mike's platter? I'm getting exactly the same platter as yourself this Tuesday if the weather holds out. I'll also have the bearing brace and a better armboard plate, hopefully a solid copper one! I'll also be mounting a SME V. I'm interested in your mat combinations to see if they can further enhance the techie!!

Rexton.

Marco
02-12-2010, 17:15
Hi Darren,


Is it just me who sees a lot a parallels here with Marco's efforts to enhance the performance of his Technics and Tom Fletcher's research?
I know we are talking belt drive vs direct drive but Tom's better turntables have always featured more massy platters of more than one material and bearings of enhanced quality.


There may be some parallels, but that's simply because the benefits of solid engineering principles apply to all turntables, not just the NAS and Techie. However, in some cases you can 'over-engineer' things and add too much mass, thus over-egg the pudding, which I'm just about to explain.


As already mentioned.... Is it not going to be the case that new platter plus copper mat, plus Oyaide mat and record weight turns out to be the killer combo and how much of this will be down to simple mass?


Nope, unfortunately not. I can rule that one out straight away, as this morning I tried the Oyaide mat and stabiliser on top of the Mike New platter, and that didn't work (thank God, says my credit card! ;)).

There was simply too much mass, and the net result was that it sucked the life out of the music.

I've heard this effect many times before when analysing the results of different high-mass headshells for the Denon DL-103 - go too far and you stifle the life out of things. It's also rather like the effect of applying excessive VTF with a cartridge, which I'm sure you'll all have heard before.

It was a tricky one to nail though, as initially when I listened there was a calm assuredness about the sound and a sense of music being held in a vice-like grip, which in some ways was quite attractive, but then I found myself becoming quickly disinterested in listening to some of my favourite albums, and I thought to myself: 'where's the fun factor gone?'.

So then I whipped off the Oyaide mat, reset VTA and VTF, played the same tracks again, and bingo, the life and energy in the music was back in abundance, and with it, the fun factor!

Don't get me wrong, the Oyaide mat and stabiliser work superbly well with the stock Techie platter (in fact it's most likely the best combination to use), but with the much heavier Mike New platter, it was simply a case of over-egging the pudding in terms of mass. It works in conjunction with the copper mat on the stock platter very well, though.

However, I retained the use of the Oyaide stabiliser, with the MN platter, and removed two of the supplied weights to reduce the overall mass, so that it was the same weight as the Bruil I normally use. That worked very well indeed, somehow reducing the noise floor further on playback, and thus increasing clarity and focus compared to the Bruil, so I suspect that I'll be keeping the stabiliser :)

Right, I just thought I'd pop in with that little update. Now back to the testing! :cool:

Marco.

colinB
02-12-2010, 17:44
Thanks for the teaser Marco.
I was curious and now surprised how much effect the stabilizer has compared to the bruil. Could be something to do with the weights bearing down on the periphery of the record label and not just down on the spindle. Im pleased the engineering is so well worked out whatever the reason and now i want one.
I was going to ask how much weight you used on the stabilizer but you use a different bearing so it wouldnt be relevant to my deck.

Marco
02-12-2010, 17:59
Hi Colin,

The improvement the Oyaide stabiliser makes could be down to a number of factors, including what you say, but it is undoubtedly the best record weight I've used to date. The fact that you can tune the level of added mass to suit your T/T and system is also invaluable.

TBH, it's worth buying one for that reason alone, and the fact that it's so beautifully made!

The stabiliser is supplied with six individual weights. I took out two of them, and that's what seems to work best on my T/T with the Mike New platter. It's definitely one to suck and see, though.

However, one thing I would ask is that if you are going to buy one, give the business to David, as he was kind enough to loan me the Oyaide items in the first place, and so deserves any sales that result from my review :)

Oyaide mat and stabiliser can be obtained by contacting David Brook at:

www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk

Cheers! :)

Marco.

colinB
02-12-2010, 18:15
I agree. Very honorable thing to do giving you a review model. He also does good prices on Nordost cables for those who like them.

Marco
02-12-2010, 18:26
Hi Andrew,


Any further information regarding your experiments with Mike's platter? I'm getting exactly the same platter as yourself this Tuesday if the weather holds out. I'll also have the bearing brace and a better armboard plate, hopefully a solid copper one! I'll also be mounting a SME V. I'm interested in your mat combinations to see if they can further enhance the techie!!


I'm coming pretty firmly to the conclusion that the best mat to use with my version of the MN platter, with bonded copper mat fitted, is NO MAT.

Firstly, there's a finite level of mass one can add to the drive system before you go too far and the life is sucked out of the music - and that limit is pretty much reached with the MN platter and Oyaide stabiliser in place. This is the reason why I specified to Mike that I wanted my platter to be 1kg lighter than the one he supplied to Martin.

Secondly, IMO, adding a further interface between the MN platter and the record defeats the purpose of the copper mat being bonded to the platter, and thus nullifies, or at best, dilutes its sonic effect.

No, you can take it pretty much as read that if you've got an MN platter with copper mat bonded to it, then you need nothing further in terms of any mats :)

As for the MN platter itself, it is simply wonderful and catapults the sonic performance of the Techie into a totally different league. Yes, it isn't exactly cheap, but let's put it this way, the sonic improvements it offers, IME, far and away exceed those of going from, say, a £450 Jelco SA750 to a £2100 SME V ;)

That's not to say of course that the SME V isn't a superb tonearm - it undoubtedly is, but simply that, in my experience, the £1650 price difference between the above doesn't give anything like the 'bang for your buck' spending £595 on an MN platter does, which thus puts the cost of the latter into perspective.

Therefore, if you want to max-out the performance of the Techie and don't have a bottomless pit of cash, it makes more sense to spend a bit less on the tonearm, as the sonic influence of the platter is more fundamental (source first and all that), providing that the tonearm used is not something which excessively hinders the overall performance of the turntable.

In summary, in my view, a Techie fitted with a Mike New bearing and platter, and say, a Jelco SA750 (or even 250ST), in the majority of areas would outperform the same fitted with a stock platter and an SME IV, or V.....

An Oyaide T/T mat and stabiliser added to the stock platter, however, would level the playing field considerably, but not to the extent that it would negate the unique sonic benefits of the MN platter - and let's not forget that this particular combo itself costs £450..............

Ultimately though, it's a question of balance and individual priorities. Do let us know though how you get on with your platter when it arrives! :cool:

Marco.

MartinT
02-12-2010, 19:00
Interesting, Marco. I haven't tried placing a record directly on my MN platter but will test it out. I shall also, for the sake of completion, bring out the Herbies mat again and try it against the Achromat and nude platter as something is not quite right for me and I can't put my finger on it.

Still awaiting the Paul Hynes PSU which I'm really looking forward to receiving.

Marco
02-12-2010, 19:13
Hi Martin,

Try that by all means, but I suspect it will be worse. The reason why no added mat works on my T/T is because the bonded copper plate/mat on my MN platter basically acts as the mat. After all, copper mats are normally sold separately for that purpose. Do let us know how you get on, though!

As far as your Achromat goes, don't forget that I tested it on the stock Techie platter (where it performs superbly), not on the MN one, and I feel that this is quite an important variable.

The good news though is that you don't need to buy an Oyaide mat to put on your MN platter!

However, I'd recommend that you try the stabiliser. I'll bring it down with me when I visit. I suspect you're going to love its combined effect with the bonded copper mat on my MN platter ;)

Marco.

Alex_UK
02-12-2010, 20:46
As far as your Achromat goes, don't forget that I tested it on the stock Techie platter (where it performs superbly), not on the MN one, and this is quite an important variable.

The good news though is that you don't need to buy an Oyaide mat to put on your MN platter!

And isn't another important variable that Martin's MN Platter doesn't have the bonded copper mat - the Oyaide may perform differently directly on the heavy aluminium platter? Sorry, just stirring it up some more! ;)

Marco
02-12-2010, 21:46
Hi Alex,

You may have a point (and Martin would need to try it himself to be absolutely sure), but the reason why I feel that the Oyaide mat doesn't work with the MN platter is because too much mass is being put onto the drive system of the turntable.

I asked Mike to make my platter 1kg lighter than Martin's because I felt that sonically it would possibly be better that way, and also to accommodate the bonded copper mat, which is really more like a thin-ish copper plate and much lighter than the 'fully-fledged' copper T/T mat that's sold separately.

Remember that the main purpose of the copper plate/mat was simply to shield the cartridge from stray eddy currents.

As the bonded copper plate/mat on my MN platter is much lighter than an Oyaide T/T mat, I would *suspect* that the added mass on Martin's already heavier platter would tip things over the edge.

Do you see what I mean?

However, the only way to know for sure is for Martin to try it. Perhaps if David allows me, I could send the Oyaide mat to Martin and let him try it for himself and report back? I'll probably be buying the stabiliser, but he could use it with his Bruil :)

Marco.

MartinT
02-12-2010, 22:05
Hold off on that thought, Marco, while I do battle with mats 'n things. I just want to get my deck working at its max first before I start fiddling with things again.

Alex_UK
02-12-2010, 22:19
I don't disagree Marco, I was just pulling your leg really, and logically your thoughts are spot on - but whenever did logic become part of this game? ;) All very interesting stuff, though, from an outsider's point of view so thanks for the good work so far. :)

Marco
02-12-2010, 23:07
Alex, glad you're enjoying reading the results of my findings so far :)

No worries, Martin - I understand where you're coming from.

Marco.

Mike_New
02-12-2010, 23:58
I have been reading the review and comments by Marco and others concerning my latest Copper Composite Platter design for the SL1200; So far my efforts seem to have been vindicated and the results are very encouraging.

I must say however, that in my judgment, using the Oyaide Alluminium mat on top of my Platter is going to be an over-kill. We would be going to far!!!
How much does it weigh Marco?

I would however recommend using the Achromat, as, from what I can understand, this is a soft mat composed of a compliant silicone material and lots of air bubbles. Now this will provide a soft cushion for the record to bed down on, which will eliminate any tendency for the record to “Rattle” on the copper surface. (or any platter surface for that matter)
And more importantly the use of a sensibly sized centre weight (clamp) will have the effect of just gently curving the record from the centre outwards, thus clamping the record to the mat all over. (and the mat to the platter)

Indeed the Oyaide alluminium platter is provided with a slightly dished surface for this reason.
Quote:
"The surface of MJ-12 is recurved 1.0 degree which makes the record surface closely fit to MJ-12 by using a stabilizer"

Unfortunately I am still awaiting delivery of my 5mm mat from Arthur so that I can test it on my own system.
I would strongly recommend the 5mm version as this will provide just that bit more height for VTA adjustment on other arms.

I am however a bit mystified by the design of the Oyaide variable weight centre stabilizer. The following is not a criticism rather an observation!
Quote:
"It is composed by detachable 10 parts and its weight is changeable by the number of the weights for your best timbre tuning".

As far as I can determine the mass is adjusted by removing (or adding) one of the 6 peripheral weights, which are clamped around the circumference of the unit. Look at the pictures in the link that Marco has given.

Now, we are only rotating at a max of 45rpm so I am not going to invoke the laws of centrifugal forces, causing out-of-balance rotation; although of course they are theoretically present.
Rather, I would have thought that removing just one of the weights is going to have the effect of subtly changing the sonic characteristics as the location of the removed weight/weights, approaches and recedes from the radial point of Stylus contact. Remember as always, we are dealing with micro vibrations and hence micro distances. As a purist, I have difficulty getting my head around it!!

I would be very interested for those more informed than myself to give us an explanation.

Marco, in a previous post asked me to mention the price of my Platters
So I will do so here and trust that I do not invoke the ire of the moderator.

Copper Composite Platter $950.00 USD

Standard Solid Alluminium Platter $805.00

Bearing Base Plate $210.00

Solid Copper Arm Plate. machined for the
SME, Jelco, Rega or any other arm, providing
the mounting data is provided. $255.00

If purchased as a complete kit then I can offer a 5% discount; and also everything can be shipped in the one 10Kg FedEx box.

It is probably quicker to contact me directly on my email mhnew@bigpond.net.au as I can then send images concerning any questions you may have. I hope Marco agrees with this addition.

colinB
03-12-2010, 00:14
Fantastic job Mike.
I read your article in Hi Fi world about your thoughts on the bearing and was hoping i wouldnt hear the last of your work.
I didnt know you had a new arm board. I can see the need for one. The thin alloy ones , like my own, sound a bit resonant and with such a big cavity under the arm pillar i thought it needed improving.
Good luck.

Marco
03-12-2010, 01:08
Hi Mike,

How's it going - are you on malt whisky today or red wine? I hope you've managed to keep the pool cool with ice! Careful now, if it gets too hot, your bearing will seize!! :eyebrows:

Just one point from what you've written, the Achromat isn't especially soft, and it's very stiff, so when you put it on the copper composite platter it skates about all over the place, even with a fairly heavy record weight like the Oyaide on top, therefore not ideal.....

However, I haven't tried bonding it to the top of the platter with Vaseline (or whatever), so that might work. I'll try this tomorrow and report back.


I am however a bit mystified by the design of the Oyaide variable weight centre stabilizer. The following is not a criticism rather an observation!
Quote:
"It is composed by detachable 10 parts and its weight is changeable by the number of the weights for your best timbre tuning".

As far as I can determine the mass is adjusted by removing (or adding) one of the 6 peripheral weights, which are clamped around the circumference of the unit. Look at the pictures in the link that Marco has given.

Now, we are only rotating at a max of 45rpm so I am not going to invoke the laws of centrifugal forces, causing out-of-balance rotation; although of course they are theoretically present.
Rather, I would have thought that removing just one of the weights is going to have the effect of subtly changing the sonic characteristics as the location of the removed weight/weights, approaches and recedes from the radial point of Stylus contact. Remember as always, we are dealing with micro vibrations and hence micro distances. As a purist, I have difficulty getting my head around it!!


Fair enough.... I can tell you though, it works - big time! :)

With these sorts of things, as simply a non-technical audio enthusiast and music lover, I refer to the old saying:

'Ours is not to wonder why, ours is to do or die...' ;)

Marco.

P.S Thanks for the clarification on prices.

Mike_New
03-12-2010, 01:52
Marco,
I don’t need the bloody ice in the pool any more we have gone back to winter here and it should be summer!! But it does keep the wine cooler.
No trouble with the bearing, on hot days I dismantle the SL1200 every night and put the bearing in the fridge, you can’t be to careful***

Concerning the Achromat I read somewhere that it was made of a soft material full of very tiny air bubbles. I have been miss-informed or I have miss-understood what I read. thanks for the info Marco

I have just looked up the Funk Firm site and I guess this is where I miss-understood.
Quote:
"Now we’ve got to loose this pressure wave energy. Achromat does so by using bubbles. Just as in a quality sponge bed mattress, which both supports and damps, as the thin bubble walls flex in Achromat, it is easy for the energy to be damped out.""

However it does beg the question as to the ideal mat which in my opinion would be the one I describe. The only mat I use at pressent is made of soft rubber supplied with my original SL1500 way back in 1977.
You see, if we can use a soft nitrile or silicone substance, which is pliable, then this provides a beautiful cushion for the record to bed down on. Further it permits of the very small depression across the diameter of the record when using a weight/clamp that is sensibly provided for by the Oyaide Platter.

It is not more weight that we need, rather a soft bed/cushion for the record to lie on and do it’s stuff!!

Does anyone have any info on where such a mat can be obtained.??

colinB
03-12-2010, 02:08
Origin live do a silicon type mat which is 1mm thick.
The Archomat feels like compressed cardboard. Its got a little give in it.
I was impressed with its ability to lower surface noise.

Mike_New
03-12-2010, 02:19
ColinB
Thanks Colin I will see if I can get hold of one. I believe this is the 'under-mat' which they reccomended when I obtained their stiff composite metal mat. It was supplied with 9 small cork pads on which to seat the mat. but then they sugested that the thin silicon disc might be superior.

Mike_New
03-12-2010, 05:13
I've had a look at the OL web site and they do have a long speil on their new 1mm thick flexible mat.
http://www.hi-fi-accessories-1.com/platter-mat-upgrade-composite.htm

Maybe Marco or Martin could get hold of one and try it.
It's what they call their "upgrade mat" and costs Stg39.00
Probably would be a lot quicker that waiting for me to get one here in down-under land.

Darren
03-12-2010, 07:54
Hi Marco,
Many thanks for your explanations. Can I ask you please:
Whatever happened to the importance of the Acromat correctly 'terminating' the vinyl and having a similar 'impedance'?
Surely this cannot be said of the copper mat?
Have you a theory yet as to what is going on?

MartinT
03-12-2010, 07:57
My thoughts, too. Both the Achromat and Herbies are designed to terminate the vinyl and yet they sound quite different. I plan to have a big session tonight and will listen carefully, I'll also try vinyl on the platter raw although I don't expect much from that. I think I have a Rega felt mat floating around too, will drop that into the mix.

Marco
03-12-2010, 08:17
I've had a look at the OL web site and they do have a long speil on their new 1mm thick flexible mat.
http://www.hi-fi-accessories-1.com/p...-composite.htm

Maybe Marco or Martin could get hold of one and try it.
It's what they call their "upgrade mat" and costs Stg39.00
Probably would be a lot quicker that waiting for me to get one here in down-under land


Interesting, Mike. I like your thinking, and you could be on to something....

I have to say though that so far I can detect no 'rattle' or any adverse sonic effect from placing records directly onto the copper surface of my platter, nor did I notice anything like that when I was using the copper mat on the stock Techie platter.

However, sometimes these things manifest themselves subtly on the music in a way that isn't immediately apparent.

I'll give one a go once I've finished the comparisons with everything else I'm doing at the moment, as I don't want to bring yet another variable into the equation :)

Marco.

DSJR
03-12-2010, 08:33
Sorry fellas, this really is where measurement comes in. You can tinker to your heart's content, but it really would be better to know exactly what's going on - it isn't magic ;)

I'll try to scan and post the pages of the "mat" tests of donkey's years ago, as this shows what happens with the better mat products of the mid eighties. Ancient figures, but the physics still applies today. Perhaps Arthur could be persuaded to undertake some resonant tests to show what is happening with current products compares to his?

One cheap mat I had huge success with is the long established NAS Spacemat, which is like a "dry" insole type of loaded sponge, not squidgey, but takes ages to reform if crushed. For Garrards, the suggestion was to place it on top of the original mat and this worked well, especially on the 401. It's fine on the TD125, although little different to the old 124 mat I use and it gave great results on pre-Cirkus LP12's too, but less so with a post Cirkus one I tried it with.. Maybe Hifi Dave could confirm a price - Tom was incredibly accomodating at the time, but the current setup is a proper business, rather than a mate's "club."

Marco
03-12-2010, 08:36
Hi Darren,


Hi Marco,
Many thanks for your explanations. Can I ask you please:
Whatever happened to the importance of the Acromat correctly 'terminating' the vinyl and having a similar 'impedance'?
Surely this cannot be said of the copper mat?
Have you a theory yet as to what is going on?

Good question! :)

There's no doubt for me that the Achromat 'terminates' vinyl very effectively, as I heard the effect of this when using the stock platter, but that didn't stop the copper mat (sold separately) bettering it in my system when I was testing it on the stock Techie platter (I'm leaking info now that I was saving for my final analysis! ;))

I suppose, to put it simply, it's a case of the overall benefits of the copper mat outweighing those of the Achromat, due to their respective sonic characteristics.

The other thing to bear in mind is that effectively what we're doing is playing with different 'interfaces', the results of which will be very system-dependent, therefore any observations I make must be taken purely in the context of my system. There is no 'universal mat/platter solution' for every system!

The Achromat, for me, is 'king' of the affordably priced mats (by a country mile), with the copper mat and Oyaide leading the way in the 'hi-end' mat stakes, as indeed they should, given the difference in cost and use of more exotic materials.

I guess at the end of the day, as I've said before, all we're doing is playing with different 'recipes' (I'll use that word this time, rather than 'interface') and hearing the cumulative effect of the ingredients we're throwing into the mix. At the moment, the best 'recipe' I've found, platter and mat-wise (again in this context by a country mile), is the Mike New copper composite platter with its 'built-in' copper plate/mat.

Perhaps if an Achromat were very firmly bonded to the surface of the MN copper composite platter, in the same way as the copper plate/mat was (without it being damaged beyond use?), then that would be the ultimate solution?

Thing is, there comes a point when you have to stop messing around and just sit back and enjoy the music. I'm pretty much at that stage now with my mat comparisons, although I will give the Origin Live a go later - just because as a thorough f*cker it'll annoy me if I don't! :eyebrows:

Marco.

colinB
03-12-2010, 09:10
The OL mat got accessory of the year award from Hi Fi worls last year but the materials are not detailed on their site. Secret i guess. Apparently it smells like a bin bag.

MCRU
03-12-2010, 09:37
QUOTE:-
Thing is, there comes a point when you have to stop messing around and just sit back and enjoy the music.:lolsign::lolsign::lolsign::lolsign:

Marco, you managed to get the Oyaide MJ-12 onto google's first page a few posts under mine, well done mate!

Not wanting to offend anyone but who cares if the Oyaide clamp is running irregularly as long as it sounds good? Does it make the music sound even better when you have a signal registering in your brain telling you the reasons why it sounds so good, maybe that is the answer. I asked Oyaide a technical question some time ago about their in-wall mains cable which retails for £100 per metre and the answer was along the lines of do you like the sound of it and if so why are you asking what the insulating material is made of! They must be audiophiles too.

I have a Mk2 SL1200 on the way, a Jelco arm and cannot wait to get started!

Apparently Panasonic UK had no idea about the ceasing of production of these babies when I spoke to them yesterday, seems they were kept out of the loop and it would be a few weeks before the news filtered down to them!

Marco
03-12-2010, 09:38
The OL mat got accessory of the year award from Hi Fi worls last year but the materials are not detailed on their site. Secret i guess. Apparently it smells like a bin bag.


Really?? That's rather attractive in a fetishist sense, presuming one is familiar with their distinctive aroma! I'm more a connoisseur of rubber :lol:

Marco (who, in the interests of accurate research, is off to sniff a selection of bin bags).

MCRU
03-12-2010, 09:39
Has anyone tried the Blue Horizon record mat?

Marco
03-12-2010, 09:50
Hi David,


Marco, you managed to get the Oyaide MJ-12 onto google's first page a few posts under mine, well done mate!


Lol - welcome to the power of our Google rankings! AoS gets appoximately 2000 page views every day, which for the size of our site is pretty impressive. Therefore, continued mentioning here of the Oyaide will in due course result in it being even higher up the list on Google ;)


Not wanting to offend anyone but who cares if the Oyaide clamp is running irregularly as long as it sounds good?


As a subjectivist that's also my attitude, but it's even more satisfying when there's a scientific explanation that proves what your ears are telling you.


I have a Mk2 SL1200 on the way, a Jelco arm and cannot wait to get started!

Apparently Panasonic UK had no idea about the ceasing of production of these babies when I spoke to them yesterday, seems they were kept out of the loop and it would be a few weeks before the news filtered down to them!

Interesting. I wonder then how that squares with what's mentioned here:

http://www.residentadvisor.net/news.aspx?id=13154

There are simply too many conflicting stories going around, so I'm afraid for me the jury is still out on this one.


Has anyone tried the Blue Horizon record mat?


Got any links or do you sell it? :)

Marco.

Marco
03-12-2010, 10:19
Hi Dave,


Sorry fellas, this really is where measurement comes in. You can tinker to your heart's content, but it really would be better to know exactly what's going on - it isn't magic ;)


I don't disagree, but very few people have access to measurement apparatus that would show what's happening scientifically, so as usual in these matters, we use our ears!

Besides, even if I read the results of what an 'egghead' has measured in his or her lab, I'd still want to hear whatever it was in my own system (as I certainly wouldn't just take his or her findings as 'Gospel'), where of course, like everyone else's, my ears would be the final arbiter - so we just end up back to where we were at the start!! :eyebrows:

Ultimately, it's only the experiences of the end user that matter with these products, and for people to relate their experiences to others if they wish, so that they too can try whatever it is and see what they think of it (it's what forums like this are for), otherwise we'd all be assembling our systems on the basis of technical data, and that most definitely is NOT the way.


I'll try to scan and post the pages of the "mat" tests of donkey's years ago, as this shows what happens with the better mat products of the mid eighties. Ancient figures, but the physics still applies today.


Please do, as long as you can explain the results in layman terms to the non-technical amongst us, if it's a case of trying to understand the meaning of squiggly readouts on a scope, and suchlike.


Perhaps Arthur could be persuaded to undertake some resonant tests to show what is happening with current products compares to his?


Nice idea, but I don't think Arthur has the time to scratch his arse at the moment, let alone carrying out resonance tests, but I'll ask him :)

Marco.

MCRU
03-12-2010, 10:26
I will send you the blue horizopn mat along with the Furutech brush then boss!

alfie2902
03-12-2010, 10:35
Very interesting Marco keep up the good work.

I'm a big fan of copper mats (not on the systemdek mind) but heard some good results from a SRMtech 2mm silicone platter mat http://srm-tech.co.uk/shop/article_SPM1/Silicone-Platter-Mat.html?shop_param=cid%3D4%26aid%3DSPM1%26 placed on top of a copper mat on an SP10. I prefered the copper mat alone but the owner still uses the SRM silicone mat!

Might be one to try!

Marco
03-12-2010, 10:44
I will send you the blue horizopn mat along with the Furutech brush then boss!

Why thank you, mansab! :eyebrows:

Oh dear, yet MORE to listen to - and I don't even get paid for this!! :lol:

Marco.

Marco
03-12-2010, 10:49
Hi Alfie,

Howz it hangin', dude? :)


Very interesting Marco keep up the good work.


Churz... These bastards will insist on keeping me busy!! ;)


I'm a big fan of copper mats (not on the systemdek mind) but heard some good results from a SRMtech 2mm silicone platter mat http://srm-tech.co.uk/shop/article_SPM1/Silicone-Platter-Mat.html?shop_param=cid%3D4%26aid%3DSPM1%26 placed on top of a copper mat on an SP10. I prefered the copper mat alone but the owner still uses the SRM silicone mat!

Might be one to try!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooo, no morrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre........................ :eek: :door:

:acid:

Marco.

MCRU
03-12-2010, 11:23
Why thank you, mansab! :eyebrows:

Oh dear, yet MORE to listen to - and I don't even get paid for this!! :lol:

Marco.

well at the moment:doh: I am not getting paid either dude....ho.ho.ho

Marco
03-12-2010, 11:25
Hehehehe.... Your reward will come in heaven! ;)

Marco.

Alex_UK
03-12-2010, 11:29
Hehehehe.... Your reward will come in heaven! ;)

Or if you're really good, through the little white door... :eyebrows:

Marco
03-12-2010, 11:40
Shhhhh... I haven't told him about Miss Whiplash yet!!!

Marco.

MCRU
03-12-2010, 12:07
Here is a better illustration of what the Oyaide Clamp (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/ourshop/prod_1120132-Oyaide-STBMS-Vinyl-Stabiliser.html) is about, a tweakers delight.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Oyaide/stb_ms_bara_1_new540.jpg

JazzBones
03-12-2010, 12:20
Just to chuck in another herb to the bubbling stewpot of various mats, I was wondering about what if a Rega 3 owner was to substitute the copper mat for the stock glass platter, maybe with the thinner Acro on top????:scratch: Its a long time since I had a Rega (early 80s) and at the time it fired me up to go up the hi fi ladder. Nowadays there are umpteen diddly after market improvements to the venerable R3, as many as those for the 12** yes?

Just a pondering upon a 'what if' thought.
:idea:

Ron

PS who turned on this cold shite, was it the Russians again, okay I'm PO that we didn't get the 2018 WC!! Corruption I say :eyebrows:

Marco
03-12-2010, 12:34
Hi Ron,

Interesting idea. How heavy is the Rega's glass platter, do you know? The copper mat is 8kg, so if it's any heavier than the glass platter, it would kill the Rega's poor little motor....

When I was playing records at a friend's house the other week, I tried putting my Bruil weight on his P3-24 - and it just died!! :eek:

Marco.

MCRU
03-12-2010, 12:46
The envelopes in Russia are still brown like ours but they are a lot bigger!

Marco
03-12-2010, 13:42
Here is a better illustration of what the Oyaide Clamp (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/ourshop/prod_1120132-Oyaide-STBMS-Vinyl-Stabiliser.html) is about, a tweakers delight.


Hey, I'm sure I've seen that turntable somewhere! :eek:

Marco.

JazzBones
03-12-2010, 16:20
Hey, I'm sure I've seen that turntable somewhere! :eek:

Marco.

You're right Marco, its Ivor Tiefinbra's but I can't see any suspension springs?
:lol:

DSJR
03-12-2010, 18:49
As threatened, the "Mat" review of old...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/c67ebfdc.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/83b5dd7e.jpg

Marco
03-12-2010, 18:55
Riveting stuff, Dave!!

Marco.

DSJR
03-12-2010, 18:56
As in "hammer over head" I suspect :D

Marco
03-12-2010, 18:58
Lol - ya knows we lurves ya (and yer library of old technical reviews!) :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco
04-12-2010, 01:26
Btw, can anyone spot the parallels between the Copper Composite Platter Mike's made me for the Techie, and the platter and mat construction on the Kenwood L-07D - the best T/T I've ever heard to date (and remains my de facto standard of reference):

http://www.l-07d.com/platter.htm

Just look at the quality of the engineering on this thing: http://www.l-07d.com/motor.htm

Now *that* is what you call a turntable, not the shite posing as such these days!!! I'll need to take my deck round again to Dave's for 'Round 2' of the shoot-out, now the Techie's got its 'big guns' fitted! Hey, you gotta hope, so say a prayer for me! ;)

Marco.

Mike_New
04-12-2010, 04:48
I have just ordered the OL mat If I am lucky I may get it before the hols.

Marco
04-12-2010, 09:55
Nice one, mate. Let us know what you think when you get it. I've got the Blue Horizon one coming, courtesty of David, which also looks like an interesting concept :)

I agree with you, if any mat is to be put on top of the Copper Composite Platter, it ought to be a 'soft' thin 'rubbery' one, which will 'bed down' onto the platter with a heavy-ish record weight on top and give the vinyl something to 'grip', thus removing the likelihood of 'chatter'.

I like the theory. The proof of the pudding though, as always, will be in the listening.... However, I find it hard to imagine how things can get any better!

Btw, what do you think of the Kenwood - bloody amazing thing, innit? :eek:

Marco.

pure sound
04-12-2010, 10:10
The Rubato copper mat I've lent is 1.8 Kg. I can't see why a Rega shouldn't cope with that. I've used it on a Heybrook TT2 which has the same PreMotec motor and a heavier platter and it turns it without a problem. (You do have to adjust the suspension of course)

With regard to the LO7D, I'm not that impressed by the appearance of the motor tbh. Not in comparison to either the Technics ones or any of the Micro Seiki made ones that are found in the old Pioneer Exclusives, the Onkyo, big Yamaha etc. I've only heard an LO7D once & was somewhat underwhelmed by it. But then I don't rate the EMT DD's either so what do I know? :)

Marco
04-12-2010, 10:23
Hi Guy,

Apologies... You're right about the Rubato mat - I made an arse of converting its weight from pounds (on an old set of bathroom scales)! :doh:

Btw, it is *very* good with the stock Techie platter. The Oyaide is perhaps just a little more revealing, but has a different, slightly more clinical (but not fatiguing) sound, compared to the Rubato's tonally richer (but in no way warm or bloated), more 'organic' presentation.

However, copper undoubtedly imparts certain sonic qualities (or perhaps removes coloration) on music played, making it addictive and engaging to listen to, in a way that doesn't happen when mats made from other materials are used - of that I am absolutely sure.

Btw I found this comment interesting, regarding the 'sheet' and platter, from the L-07D website:


The platter and sheet combination will neither vibrate nor ring. The 5mm thick stainless steel platter sheet is made from non-magnetic stainless steel. This thick disc shields the pickup cartridge from the magnetism of the motor below.


*That* is precisely where I think the main benefit from the copper mat is coming from, and why I decided to have one annealed to my Mike New platter (to maximise the effect), and the results are stunning........!

Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. I think the Kenwood looks awesome and is exceptionally well engineered. I've also heard a very good one in a superb system (Dave Anderton's), and trust me, it sounded stunningly good, especially with my SPU on the end of its tonearm!

I've not heard any EMT turntables, so can't comment, but I suspect that I'd like them. I'd like to hear a 950. One of these babies appeals the most:


http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7687/71323031.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/i/71323031.jpg/)


Awesome!! :eek:


I know that Barry's got an EMT (not sure which one). I intend to visit him next year, so that'll be another interesting bake-off with the Techie to look forward to! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
04-12-2010, 11:37
I was told at the time that the only "magnetism" maybe coming out of a Techie motor unit was via the centre spindle possibly, the rest of it being well screened by the assembly bolted to the top platter, the outer casing of which totally surrounding the magnets from the sides and above.

Marco
04-12-2010, 11:46
Being told that (in theory) is one thing - hearing the significant sonic benefit of its removal is quite another!

Remember, Dave, that I've already heard the sonic improvements of this effect by removing the (ferrous) stock PSU from underneath the platter. Unfortunately, the motor has to stay where it is.... ;)

Marco.

MCRU
04-12-2010, 20:30
Marco.
Is this thread over now mate so can I get my Oyaide mat back as I have an SL1210 on the way and cannot afford a Mine New platter just yet, ho.ho.ho. Only joking.

For convenience I am having an RB300 with full cardas re-wire fitted as the owner of the Techie has the arm sat doing nothing and an arm board for mounting it also so that should get me up and running.

Had 2 offers on the Lenco already so that will finance a few up-grades for the Techie sooner rather than later.

Made my own feet and have ordered a new Oyaide set of weights/clamp so cooking on gas, once I have some nice cleaned vinyl I will sit back for a few weeks and chill with some nice 80's 12" tunes and plenty of stella.

Mike_New
04-12-2010, 23:02
DSJR


I was told at the time that the only "magnetism" maybe coming out of a Techie motor unit was via the centre spindle possibly, the rest of it being well screened by the assembly bolted to the top platter, the outer casing of which totally surrounding the magnets from the sides and above.

You are mainly correct in the above observations, or what you were told. The Magnet is a 'radially magnetised' one; which has its 16 poles extending radially inwards (and outwards) from the centre. And which react with the 12 radial stator coils.
This design encloses the stator coils so as to minimize leakage when assembled correctly, and it does work very well.

However there will always be an amount of magnetic leakage which can be measurable and which will be more pronounced closer to the centre.
This could most certainly be measured above the standard platter, using the correct sensors, and it would not be a difficult thing to do using the right equipment.

The copper Composite Platter which Marco asked me to machine for him, will most certainly greatly reduce any stray fields. However I would rather not speculate on the quantitive values.

However listening tests have I think, shown that a positive sonic advantage can be gained by employing a copper mat. This may take the form of the separate mat which is available from a number of suppliers, or in the case of my platter, it is bonded to the solid alluminium main body of the platter as a one-piece-unit.

The fact that my copper plate is totally annealed and bonded to the platter and machined as a whole, also I believe greatly adds to the sonics, in that this arrangement, also reduces the resonance of the system.

DSJR
05-12-2010, 09:19
Thanks Mike, a most elegant solution :)

Wakefield Turntables
05-12-2010, 10:00
I've been lurking around for a while reading this discussion. I have the Mike New platter arriving hopefully next week. Sounds like not much is needed to improve on his platter. Correct if I'm wrong but I did hear some mention of maybe a light weight rubber mat could be used to potentially finish off the "Record-Platter" interface. I was wondering if a simple 3mm sorbothane + aluminium bonded under cover would be of any use. I have lots of experience in using the various shock absorbing and vibration dampening materials. We've found that Sorbothane is generally viewed as a great tool for knocking out vibration. The aluminium would simply be bonded on the base to stop EMI and RFI getting into the techie. Just my two cents. I'm currently using my old Garrard 301's rubber mat and the techie sounds quite good with that. I have several prototype Sorbothane mats being made up which I could lend out if people are interested the only downside is that the aluminium has not been bonded on just yet. Send me a PM if you are interested.

Marco
05-12-2010, 10:17
Ok, guys, after carrying out final tests yesterday, returning to the stock platter and the Oyaide and copper mats, and comparing the record weights, I've reach my final conclusions; and those will be summarised and posted tomorrow :)

Hi David,


Marco.
Is this thread over now mate so can I get my Oyaide mat back as I have an SL1210 on the way and cannot afford a Mine New platter just yet, ho.ho.ho. Only joking.


Lol - give me a bell tomorrow, dude, and we'll sort out the bits and pieces :cool:


For convenience I am having an RB300 with full cardas re-wire fitted as the owner of the Techie has the arm sat doing nothing and an arm board for mounting it also so that should get me up and running.


As you know, a Rega isn’t an ideal match for the Techie, but it'll certainly get you up and running. A Cardas rewired one won't sound too shabby either!


Had 2 offers on the Lenco already so that will finance a few up-grades for the Techie sooner rather than later.

Made my own feet and have ordered a new Oyaide set of weights/clamp so cooking on gas, once I have some nice cleaned vinyl I will sit back for a few weeks and chill with some nice 80's 12" tunes and plenty of stella.

Nice one. When we chat tomorrow we'll sort out cleaning some of your records - you won't believe the difference it'll make!

Marco.

Darren
05-12-2010, 23:04
Has anyone else ever wondered If it would be possible to mass load and or damp. The original Technics platter?
I'm reminded here of the Elite Rock 2. A wonderful sounding turntable with a gypsum plaster loaded platter.....
I'm not suggesting we get pouring the plaster but is there space under the existing platter for any mods/funny business?
While I'm sure the Mike New platter is a far better sounding and elegant solution it's not a cheap one.

Pete
06-12-2010, 00:03
FWIW, I have the MN heavy platter with the 5mm Funkfirm, and it sounds heavenly.

I use the light weight Herbie sonic stabilizer rather than a heavy clamp/weight.

Glad you joined the platter team Marco :)

It would be interesting to compare the non-copper MN platter with Funkfirm vs. the coppered version.

I would love to hear reports about Paul Hynes new internal regulators, when someone reviews them.

Mike_New
06-12-2010, 00:06
Darren,
I am afraid there is not much room for any funny business!! under the platter.
I have modelled the complete assembly on CAD and I can tell you there is very little room.
The design of the platter DD assembly is such that the platter sort of wraps itself around the motor assembly and the PCB. Hence the inverted dish shape of the platter which of course is a large part of the problem.

There is also a thick layer of rubber bonded to the underside of the platter which would not be practical to remove. There are other platters such as the SL1500 which do not have any rubber bonding, and which could be contenders for your suggestion. However they will not work on the SL1200 as the magnet rotor assembly differs substantially.

So we must resign ourselves to either putting something on top to improve the dynamics/sonics or look at an alternative platter design. Which in itself was not an easy task as the low profile of the motor assembly limits the options.

colinB
06-12-2010, 01:10
Just had a reminder of the ringing platter a minute ago. Went to put on a new record that i could tell was loaded with static. I got to about 6 " of the TT and felt a belt through both hands and ring of the platter as the spark connected.

Mike_New
06-12-2010, 02:13
Colin,
That is an unbelieveable amount of static from a record and would not do the ICs on the PCB any good if it happened to often.

colinB
06-12-2010, 02:30
Actually , im getting a belt just touching the buttons on my cdp so i appear to have a problem. My system hasnt sounded so good the last few weeks so i need to look at it.

Mike_New
06-12-2010, 02:48
Colin,
If you are using one of those so called mains conditioners or other devide interceded between the mains supply; Then be careful if you are not an electrical person

colinB
06-12-2010, 02:56
I use a plugboard where the inputs are wired in parallel , supposedly to eliminate cross talk but thereare no filters on it.

Mike_New
06-12-2010, 04:15
Collin,
If you are getting a belt just touching the CDP buttons, then you may have lost an earthing connection somewhere between the plug board outlet and the main earth.
Disconnect all the equipment from the plug board and check for any voltage between the earth pins and a known good earth. A water pipe can be regarded as a good earth reference, however the caveat here is that water pipes are now often made from plastics. You will need to determine this for your self.

colinB
06-12-2010, 09:17
Thanks Mike, i will check.
Sorry for the off topic, please be free to remove.

Wakefield Turntables
07-12-2010, 12:02
My Mike New platter arrived today with Copper top plate, it's a thing of beauty!

chris@panteg
07-12-2010, 12:08
Hi Andrew

I see you have an SME V , be interested to know how you get on with the platter:)

Tarzan
07-12-2010, 13:49
Review, review!:)

Marco
07-12-2010, 15:33
Fret ye not, it's coming very shortly! :)

Marco.

Marco
07-12-2010, 15:34
Hi Andrew,


My Mike New platter arrived today with Copper top plate, it's a thing of beauty!

Yes, isn't it indeed! When you've had a good chance to listen, please add your thoughts to the thread later :cool:

Marco.

Marco
07-12-2010, 16:50
Hi Guys,

Ok, having thoroughly tested all the mats and platters at my disposal, I've now arrived at my final conclusions. Please bear in mind that the following information is based only on results obtained in my own system - results with the same items used in other systems may (and most likely will) vary.

Consequently, I haven't awarded an outright 'winner', but rather have outlined what I consider are the sonic characteristics of the mats in question, in order that others can read my observations and judge things for themselves.

What I would say though is that both the Oyaide (with stabiliser) and Rubato copper mat offer superior sonic performance to any of the better, more affordably priced mats on the market, such as the Herbie's and Achromat, as indeed they should do given the difference in cost.

Therefore, with those provisos in place, here are my conclusions:


*Best mat for the SL-1200/1210 (with stock Technics platter) is the.........


Oyaide MJ-12 (with matching STB-MS vinyl stabiliser).


*Providing you like the sonic presentation it gives and that it suits your system.

The combination of the Oyaide mat and stabiliser allows clinically precise insight into recordings, with minimal coloration of the signal, giving a very neutral, detailed and precise, if slightly 'cool', musical presentation. And the novel way that the stabiliser flattens out warps in records, by evenly distributing them over the surface area of the slightly 'dished' shape of the MJ-12 mat, is a masterful touch - and no doubt is instrumental in the superb sonic results obtained. TBH, it's worth buying both solely to have flat records to play!

However, both items MUST be used together in order for the full sonic effect (and warp flattening capabilities) of the mat to be realised. Using one without the other simply dilutes their combined effectiveness. Sorry, there's no cheap way out here.

Fitting the Oyaide MJ-12/STB-MS combo results in laying not only recordings bare for inspection, but also any set-up or presentational anomalies of your T/T and/or system. If you like your music presented 'warts & all' (and if your T/T and system are set-up and performing optimally to cope with this level of honesty) then results with top-notch recordings can be breathtaking.

The Oyaide and stabiliser combo in that respect thus cannot be beaten, other than when a Mike New Copper Composite platter is used on its own with a suitable record weight, such as the Bruil, which although does not flatten out record warps, combines with the former to offer their very own special brand of musical insight.

Let me be absolutely clear, though: the sound that the combination of the Oyaide mat and stabiliser offers is not at all clinical or sterile, although as the turntable mat (and record weight) are influential interfaces in the signal chain, those whose T/T and system already verges on the 'cool' and slightly bright side, in terms of sonic signature, may find that adding the Oyaide and stabiliser takes things slightly too far in that direction (by simply 'telling it as it is'), and so may prefer the balance offered by the tonally richer and more 'organic' presentation of the Rubato copper mat.

However, my view with these things is 'don't shoot the messenger', therefore if the Oyaide and stabiliser show up deficiencies in recordings and/or your T/T or system, then it's far better to apply a fix at the source of the problem (other than the recording, of course, which one can't do anything about) than use your choice of turntable mat as a 'bandage' to paper over cracks elsewhere. Remember what 'high-fidelity' means! ;)

One final word, however, about the STB-MS stabiliser...

Yes it is expensive, but to hold one and use one is, quite simply, to want one! It is undoubtedly a genuinely beautiful piece of engineering, and combined with the flexibility it offers in terms of 'mass tuning', it will act as a well-sorted and final solution for anyone in the market for owning a top-notch record weight - of that there is no question.


*Best mat (option 2) for the SL-1200/1210 (WITH STOCK TECHNICS PLATTER) is the...........


RUBATO COPPER MAT.


*Providing you like the sonic presentation it gives and that it suits your system.

In some systems, the musical presentation the copper mat gives will be preferable, as whilst to my ears it doesn’t mask any information (quite the opposite, in fact), it undoubtedly doesn’t 'push' that information at you in the rather exuberant fashion of the Oyaide combo, so one could say its presentation is slightly more 'relaxed' but not in any way in a dull or muted sense.

What’s also become obvious from using the Rubato mat (and also my own Mike New Copper Composite platter) is that whenever copper is in the equation, music reproduced takes on a wonderful depth, texture and openness, and in the process loses a slight veil that seems to superimpose itself on proceedings whenever a 'copper interface' between motor and platter is absent.

This could possibly be due to, as discussed previously, the shielding of stray eddy currents (or magnetic field) from the motor underneath, interfering with the sonic response of the cartridge, especially when considering the 'delicate', and thus easily affected, signal emitting from low-output MC cartridges. The Oyaide T/T mat, despite its undoubted talents in other areas, does NOT address this particular problem.

I have no doubt that sonic interference from eddy currents is a genuine phenomenon in audio and one that’s sufficiently detrimental to one’s enjoyment of music (especially when experienced whilst listening to music on a truly wide-open high-resolution system liable to highlight this effect) to warrant the permanent inclusion of some form of copper plate/mat interface between the record and platter (and the motor underneath) to help ameliorate this effect.

Therefore, for some, these benefits may be of sufficient importance to negate the sonic advantages offered by the Oyaide combo’s record warp flattening abilities.

In fact, listening tests clearly showed that using the Oyaide mat and stabiliser in conjunction with the Rubato copper mat, yielded the best results with the stock Technics platter, where the former combined with the Rubato’s eddy current/magnetic field shielding abilities to superb effect, making for a rather beguiling musical presentation, whilst of course taking into consideration how the design and mechanical deficiencies of the stock platter influence the overall ability of the SL-1200/1210 to accurately portray musical information on records to maximum effect.

And this is now where the 'ultimate solution' of a whole new specially designed and engineered platter comes into the equation............

Having the other day briefly returned to using the stock platter, with the Oyaide mat and STB-MS stabiliser, after having used the Mike New Copper Composite platter for a number of days, I can confirm that the latter considerably 'raises the game' of the SL-1200/1210, to the extent that it highlights the significant latent potential still to be realised from the superb (and highly accurate) Technics Quartz-controlled direct-drive motor unit.

Don’t get me wrong, for most people, using the Oyaide combo (or Rubato copper mat) with the stock Technics platter, and hearing some superb sounds in the process, it would be very difficult to imagine how things could get any better, thus it would make perfect sense to stop at that point and just enjoy the music.

However, to do so would be to deprive oneself of the extraordinary way in which the Mike New Copper Composite platter moves the Techie forward into an entirely different sonic league, resulting in some of the most convincing and musically rewarding sounds I’ve heard to date from the humble vinyl record. Yes, for me, the effect of the MN platter is unquestionably that fundamental!

Having considered all of the above, however, I would also ask you to bear the following in mind:

Fact: no mat, no matter how good, can fix the inherent mechanical deficiencies of the stock Technics platter.

And trust me, they *do* exist (don’t let anyone with a commercial agenda tell you differently) - and as such become immediately apparent once cured by the highly effective design principles of the MN platter. Ultimately, I guess it depends on how far you want to go.

In summary then, for those who truly want to hear what their SL-1200/1210 is capable of sonically, the use of a Mike New high-precision bearing and Copper Composite platter, in my opinion, is mandatory, along with a suitable high-current capability PSU, such as the Paul Hynes SR5. Failing that, the MN bearing and an SR5 PSU with the Oyaide mat and vinyl stabiliser, retaining the stock Technics platter, will get you 95% of the way there.

As ever though in hi-end audio, it’s often that last few percent which defines the difference between merely 'good' and genuinely 'great' - and from experience I can say quite categorically that in terms of the sonic capabilities of the SL-1200/1210, the Mike New Copper Composite Platter delivers that last few percent.

All enquiries regarding the Copper Composite Platter should therefore be made to Mike by email: mhnew@bigpond.net.au

If you really want the best from your Techie, then quite simply you owe it to yourself to own one! :cool:

Marco.

colinB
07-12-2010, 17:00
Nice one Marco. Fantastic to get in house reviewing on AOS. Much appreciated.
One small point of detail. Did the bruil weight work at all with the oyaide platter at all. Im not looking for the cheap route but personally i would want to buy the mat and then at a later date buy the stabilizer.

John
07-12-2010, 17:07
Lovelly write up Marco
I shall pass this onto Vic and try and get him to try this on the Salvation platter

Alex_UK
07-12-2010, 17:35
Nice one Marco. I must admit the Oyaide mat also looks superb, and a mat/stabiliser would be the only option with other models of Techie (and other DD) turntables, where an after-market platter isn't available (however as my SL-150 is "just" a stand-in, I'd be better off investing the money in my 401... if it wasn't for bills and Christmas... I wonder how the Oyaide would affect the Garrards and other idler drives - certainly the former have platters with similar "characteristics" to the Techies - (i.e. they ring like Big Ben...) Anyway, thanks for the write up. (Pinches himself to make sure it wasn't all just a dream! ;))

MCRU
07-12-2010, 17:53
I will be trying the Oyaide mat and clamp on a Lenco if it takes the weight and hopefully a Garrard 401.

John
07-12-2010, 18:01
Nice one Marco. I must admit the Oyaide mat also looks superb, and a mat/stabiliser would be the only option with other models of Techie (and other DD) turntables, where an after-market platter isn't available (however as my SL-150 is "just" a stand-in, I'd be better off investing the money in my 401... if it wasn't for bills and Christmas... I wonder how the Oyaide would affect the Garrards and other idler drives - certainly the former have platters with similar "characteristics" to the Techies - (i.e. they ring like Big Ben...) Anyway, thanks for the write up. (Pinches himself to make sure it wasn't all just a dream! ;))
It should help but be good to hear David results

MCRU
07-12-2010, 18:05
Its quite exciting for me because I have the Lenco which I refurbished and decided to sell as I have 4 more anyway, my Rega P3 is on e-bay and my good friend Tony who used to own Select Audio but has now retired has a mint SL1210 Mk2 which he is letting me have, he has a full cardas re-wired RB300 which is not the ultimate arm for the Technics but it gets me up and running, just need to decide which cartridge to put on it now!

Must admit the Technics looks damn cool with the Oyaide mat on doesn't it!

Marco
07-12-2010, 18:52
Cheers, guys. Hopefully some of you will have found my ramblings useful :)

Hi Colin,


One small point of detail. Did the bruil weight work at all with the oyaide platter at all. Im not looking for the cheap route but personally i would want to buy the mat and then at a later date buy the stabilizer.

Sonically, it worked very well (although not as well as when the STB-MS was used), but in terms of flattening out warps, no, as unfortunately the Bruil isn't quite heavy enough.

However, any suitably heavy record weight (which means that it is as least as heavy as the STB-MS) would work, as I don't think the Oyaide stabiliser is doing anything particularly special in that respect :)

Marco.

colinB
07-12-2010, 19:00
Thanks Marco. How much does it weigh out of interest?

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 19:25
Must admit the Technics looks damn cool with the Oyaide mat on doesn't it!


Indeed :)

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/OyaideTechnicsreview001.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/OyaideTechnicsreview002.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/OyaideTechnicsreview003.jpg

Photos Copyright Adventures in High Fidelity Audio 2010

Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 19:26
Nice review Marco, very nice :)


Regards D S D L

Marco
07-12-2010, 19:31
Cheers, mate - and may I say very nice pics (above) from you! :stalks:

Is that Hamish's old Techie? :)

Marco.

Marco
07-12-2010, 19:33
Hi Colin


Thanks Marco. How much does it weigh out of interest?

Ah.... Unfortunately, I've returned the mat and stabiliser now to David. However, I'm sure Neil will weigh it for you :)

Marco.

MCRU
07-12-2010, 19:36
Neil,
The pic Marco lets me use of his Techie is crap compared to yours.lol....

Did you get yours from Whittlebury show as I was there and Oyaide first showed them and sold them all I was told!

The only other Oyaide source in the UK is also a Dave!

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 19:37
Cheers, mate - and may I say very nice pics (above) from you! :stalks:

Is that Hamish's old Techie? :)

Marco.

Beautiful isn't it ?

Just thought it would be nice to give a wee hint as to what I have been up to recently as we started our evaluation process around about the same time. I haven't reached any firm conclusions yet though my project is a bit more wide ranging than yours has been as it will include arm options and PSU options as well.



Regards D S D L

Darren
07-12-2010, 19:39
Darren,
I am afraid there is not much room for any funny business!! under the platter.
I have modelled the complete assembly on CAD and I can tell you there is very little room.
The design of the platter DD assembly is such that the platter sort of wraps itself around the motor assembly and the PCB. Hence the inverted dish shape of the platter which of course is a large part of the problem.

There is also a thick layer of rubber bonded to the underside of the platter which would not be practical to remove. There are other platters such as the SL1500 which do not have any rubber bonding, and which could be contenders for your suggestion. However they will not work on the SL1200 as the magnet rotor assembly differs substantially.

So we must resign ourselves to either putting something on top to improve the dynamics/sonics or look at an alternative platter design. Which in itself was not an easy task as the low profile of the motor assembly limits the options.

Hi Mike,
Please don't think I was trying to suggest you could be undercut easily or that your products are poor value -I'm just not wealthy like Marco :) and was wondering if a half way house as it were could be achieved....
Just thinking aloud really.
Naturally I wish you every success.

Tarzan
07-12-2010, 19:41
Yep well done Marco- now you can go and listen to more music and that blue Techie looks uber cool- any second opinion on the Oyaide mat Dalek? Good job to all, this is getting exicting:cool:

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 19:41
Neil,
The pic Marco lets me use of his Techie is crap compared to yours.lol....

Did you get yours from Whittlebury show as I was there and Oyaide first showed them and sold them all I was told!

The only other Oyaide source in the UK is also a Dave!


If I told you where I would have to exterminate you ;)

I missed the Oyaide items at the show and only learn't about them after the event.


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 19:44
Yep well done Marco- now you can go and listen to more music and that blue Techie looks uber cool- any second opinion on the Oyaide mat Dalek? Good job to all, this is getting exicting:cool:

No not yet but my review project is much wider in scope than Marco's.


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 19:59
Hi Colin



Ah.... Unfortunately, I've returned the mat and stabiliser now to David. However, I'm sure Neil will weigh it for you :)

Marco.


No scales I am afraid.... sorry.


Regards D S D L

MCRU
07-12-2010, 20:00
Is it fair to say that an SL1200/1210 with an SME/Jelco arm and good cartridge, Oyaide mat and stabilizer will get you 9/10 of the way to audio nirvana? To get all the way needs Mike New involved!

Marco
07-12-2010, 20:01
Beautiful isn't it ?


Yes, the blue suits the silver finish of the Oyaide rather well - more so than with the silver or black finish of an SL-1200 or 1210.


Just thought it would be nice to give a wee hint as to what I have been up to recently as we started our evaluation process around about the same time. I haven't reached any firm conclusions yet though my project is a bit more wide ranging than yours has been as it will include arm options and PSU options as well.


I look forward with great interest to reading your findings. They will I'm sure add to the pool of useful information quickly accumulating on these excellent products from Oyaide.

However, if you REALLY want to get serious with your Techie, you'll need to buy one of Mike's platters!! ;)

Marco.

P.S David, if Neil will allow you, feel free to use his picture of the Oyaide mat on your website instead. You have my blessing :)

MCRU
07-12-2010, 20:06
I will weigh the weight so everyone can go away and get their own equivalent made for 1/2 the cost no problem...:steam::steam::ner:

An earlier post made a reference to costs which I discussed with Marco earlier this week, not everyone can afford a MN platter, power supply and bearing having maybe spent £200-£300 on the Technics, IMHO a good arm and cartridge and moving the internal power supply (Marcos tip thx for that boss) would give anyone into vinyl a decent spinner until funds allow further up-grades, anyone agree? Oh and get rid of that awful rubber mat!

DSJR
07-12-2010, 20:06
No not yet but my review project is much wider in scope than Marco's.


Regards D S D L

And here was me hoping you might consider my Quad FM2 if you didn't already have one ;) All this money spent on the techie will give you nothing left :lol:

Marco
07-12-2010, 20:08
Is it fair to say that an SL1200/1210 with an SME/Jelco arm and good cartridge, Oyaide mat and stabilizer will get you 9/10 of the way to audio nirvana? To get all the way needs Mike New involved!

Yes, that's it in a nutshell. However, securing the remaining 1/10th is most fundamentally desirable! ;)


An earlier post made a reference to costs which I discussed with Marco earlier this week, not everyone can afford a MN platter, power supply and bearing having maybe spent £200-£300 on the Technics, IMHO a good arm and cartridge and moving the internal power supply (Marcos tip thx for that boss) would give anyone into vinyl a decent spinner until funds allow further up-grades, anyone agree? Oh and get rid of that awful rubber mat!


Yup, and also the stock feet.

Marco.

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 20:09
P.S David, if Neil will allow you, feel free to use his picture of the Oyaide mat on your website instead. You have my blessing :)

Marco/David

I am sorry but these images + others will form part of a series of reviews on AIHFA and it is my policy regarding AIHFA that I don't allow AIHFA copyright images to be used for commercial purposes. I don't use them for commercial reasons myself either.

The manufacturers and distributors of products I review on AIHFA can link to the reviews or quote small parts but using images etc would make imho AIHFA too commercial.

Once again sorry....I walk a very thin tight rope in these matters.


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 20:11
And here was me hoping you might consider my Quad FM2 if you didn't already have one ;) All this money spent on the techie will give you nothing left :lol:


Hi Dave


Its not mine.


Regards D S D L

Marco
07-12-2010, 20:21
Btw, one other benefit of the MN platter I forgot to mention is a significant improvement in the reduction of feedback, and therefore isolation on the Techie.

With the stock platter fitted, no matter what mat, clamp or record weight are used, there was always a (very slight) 'drumming effect' heard when tapping the top-plate of the T/T when the stylus on a cartridge was placed on a record with the volume on the preamp turned up full.

Try it and you'll see....... This is not in any way desirable, and no T/T mat I've used to date has had a sufficient damping effect to cure this problem.

However, now with MN platter in place, doing the same thing again results in complete silence, other than simply the dull thud generated by your fingers making contact with the surface of the T/T's top plate.

Now *that* alone is bound to have a positive impact on performance, especially when combined with the removal of the nasty resonances of the stock platter, and the eddy current/magnetic field shielding effect of the bonded copper mat!

Certainly, the cumulative sonic effect of the above is translated into what is heard when one listens to music, which if you can afford it, makes the purchase of an MN platter rather a no-brainer :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 20:24
Btw, one other benefit of the MN platter I failed to mention is a significant improvement in feedback (and therefore isolation) on the Techie.

With the stock platter fitted, no matter what mat, clamp or record weight are used, there was a (very slight) 'drumming effect' heard when tapping the top-plate of the T/T when the stylus of a cartridge was placed on a record with the volume on the preamp turned up full.

Try it and you'll see.......

However, now with MN platter in place, doing the same thing again results in complete silence, other than simply the noise generated by your fingers making contact with the surface of the T/T's top plate.

Now *that* alone is bound to have a positive impact on performance, especially when combined with the reduction in resonance and eddy current shielding of the bonded copper mat! :)

Certainly, the cumulative sonic effect of the above is translated in what is heard when one listens to music.

Marco.

I was thinking about the shielding aspect of copper and it is possible to buy very thin sheets of copper foil which could be applied carefully and evenly to the top of a Technics platter that might work well too. Trick will be for it to be an even layer otherwise any item on top will rise and fall slightly.

Worth thinking about as a cheaper option......perhaps.


Regards D S D L

colinB
07-12-2010, 20:24
I will weigh the weight so everyone can go away and get their own equivalent made for 1/2 the cost no problem...:steam::steam::ner:

An earlier post made a reference to costs which I discussed with Marco earlier this week, not everyone can afford a MN platter, power supply and bearing having maybe spent £200-£300 on the Technics, IMHO a good arm and cartridge and moving the internal power supply (Marcos tip thx for that boss) would give anyone into vinyl a decent spinner until funds allow further up-grades, anyone agree? Oh and get rid of that awful rubber mat!

I have a weight already. Its made of berylium copper , has a threaded clamp and cost me a friggin fortune. It weighs 300gm and did sod all to the sound of my rig.
I was wondering if the stabiliser was heavier , or technically different in some way that might it work better than the thing i have at the moment before i blow another load of the little cash i earn on another accessory.
I work in sales and i know how it is when customers take advice of me and go somewhere else ( normally the web) and its not very nice. I had no intention of doing that. I might irritate them sometimes with stupid questions but im not a twat.

MartinT
07-12-2010, 20:35
Great write-up, Marco. Your review informs my findings and I don't disagree with your description where your kit mirrors mine.

I promised to reveal my mat findings now that I've had a chance to listen properly. I must say this is where the DV arm's on-the-fly height adjustment makes things much easier than it otherwise would have been and kept my memory fresh while listening to each mat.

Recap: I have an earlier Mike New platter with brass inserts in an aluminium disc (correct me if I'm wrong about the materials, Mike). I also have the MN bearing and base plate.

LP on plain platter. Rather surprisingly, this didn't sound half bad. Dynamics were strong and the sound was vivid, if lacking a little detail. The midrange was a touch harsh and it was this that masked some fine detail. Bass was full.

Rega Felt Mat. Not a nice sound, vague with a midrange colouration that masked detail. Not harsh, just dull.

Herbies. Very similar to the raw platter. Very good driving bass and rhythm. Similar slightly shouty quality in the high midrange, some smearing of fine detail and high treble. Very slight colouration in the midrange.

Achromat. Suddenly fine detail is in abundance with a very clear midrange and very fine high treble. Better sense of the acoustic space. Lighter presentation with clean bass but slightly lacking the pounding drive of the Herbies.

Overall, the Achromat wins. However, I could wish for a combination of the Achromat's tonal neutrality, fine detail and fantastic insight with the Herbies' dynamic clout and driving bass.

Forgot to mention: the Achromat displays a useful reduction in surface noise over an already quiet deck.

MCRU
07-12-2010, 20:38
I have a weight already. Its made of berylium copper , has a threaded clamp and cost me a friggin fortune. It weighs 300gm and did sod all to the sound of my rig.
I was wondering if the stabiliser was heavier , or technically different in some way that might it work better than the thing i have at the moment before i blow another load of the little cash i earn on another accessory.
I work in sales and i know how it is when customers take advice of me and go somewhere else ( normally the web) and its not very nice. I had no intention of doing that. I might irritate them sometimes with stupid questions but im not a twat.

you can borrow an oyaide weight colin no problemo, pm your address mate

MCRU
07-12-2010, 20:43
Guys,
I have many contacts in engineering (in fact having some polyacetal (delrin) feet, weight and other bits made at the mo as well as an aluminium weight for someone else), I can probably get a sheet of copper say 1mm thick cut with a water jet cutter (laser is no good as it burns the edges) into a circle with a hole in the middle, sounds worthwhile anybody?

Neil, would not dream of using your images without permission and respect what you say, end of, silly of Marco to suggest it without clearing it with you first eh! No ban please....:lolsign:

Anyone who is into mats, the blue horizon record mat (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/ourshop/prod_1171882-Blue-Horizon-Record-Mat.html) has had a good first review in Hi-Fi World and one is on its way to Marco for him to play with so if it proves a good match for the stock platter let's go from there, they are £65 a pop all proceeds to Mains-Cables-R-Us (I have a wife and 2 kids to feed!.

MartinT
07-12-2010, 20:44
I'm wondering whether an Oyaide weight might be my next purchase, based on Marco's findings and that we both have a Bruil weight currently.

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 20:50
Guys,
I have many contacts in engineering (in fact having some polyacetal (delrin) feet, weight and other bits made at the mo as well as an aluminium weight for someone else), I can probably get a sheet of copper say 1mm thick cut with a water jet cutter (laser is no good as it burns the edges) into a circle with a hole in the middle, sounds worthwhile anybody?

Neil, would not dream of using your images without permission and respect what you say, end of, silly of Marco to suggest it without clearing it with you first eh! No ban please....:lolsign:

Anyone who is into mats, the blue horizon record mat (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/ourshop/prod_1171882-Blue-Horizon-Record-Mat.html) has had a good first review in Hi-Fi World and one is on its way to Marco for him to play with so if it proves a good match for the stock platter let's go from there, they are £65 a pop all proceeds to Mains-Cables-R-Us (I have a wife and 2 kids to feed!.


Not a problem re the photos...thank you for understanding my reasons.

Re the highlighted bit yes it might be I would be happy to have a go at that :)


Regards D S D L

Alex_UK
07-12-2010, 20:53
Hamish sells Techie... Neil acquires Techie... Don't think the penny dropped for any of us until we saw the pictures! (Well not for me, anyway but I am often oblivious to the obvious!) Goes very well visually with the Oyaide...

MCRU
07-12-2010, 20:53
Neil, if it is feasible I will send you one with the other bits I am sending you, will know tomorrow.

Can 1 of you technicianstell me in mm what outside diameter the copper mat needs to be and what size hole in the middle, middle I would have thought needs to be 0.2mm bigger than the spindle diameter

Marco
07-12-2010, 20:58
Hi Martin,


I promised to reveal my mat findings now that I've had a chance to listen properly. I must say this is where the DV arm's on-the-fly height adjustment makes things much easier than it otherwise would have been and kept my memory fresh while listening to each mat.

Recap: I have an earlier Mike New platter with brass inserts in an aluminium disc (correct me if I'm wrong about the materials, Mike). I also have the MN bearing and base plate.

LP on plain platter. Rather surprisingly, this didn't sound half bad. Dynamics were strong and the sound was vivid, if lacking a little detail. The midrange was a touch harsh and it was this that masked some fine detail. Bass was full.

Rega Felt Mat. Not a nice sound, vague with a midrange colouration that masked detail. Not harsh, just dull.

Herbies. Very similar to the raw platter. Very good driving bass and rhythm. Similar slightly shouty quality in the high midrange, some smearing of fine detail and high treble. Very slight colouration in the midrange.

Achromat. Suddenly fine detail is in abundance with a very clear midrange and very fine high treble. Better sense of the acoustic space. Lighter presentation with clean bass but slightly lacking the pounding drive of the Herbies.

Overall, the Achromat wins. However, I could wish for a combination of the Achromat's tonal neutrality, fine detail and fantastic insight with the Herbies' dynamic clout and driving bass.

Forgot to mention: the Achromat displays a useful reduction in surface noise over an already quiet deck.

Excellent stuff, and that information will I'm sure be of use to others. I suspected that the Achromat would win. Let's not forget just how good it is in the grand scheme of things! :)

However, I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised at the sonic qualities the bonded copper mat makes to Mike's already superb platter ;)

Unfortunately though I won't be able to make it now before Christmas, so that's one for us to do in the New Year. You'll have your SR5 by then, too!

Marco.

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 21:01
Neil, if it is feasible I will send you one with the other bits I am sending you, will know tomorrow.

Can 1 of you technicianstell me in mm what outside diameter the copper mat needs to be and what size hole in the middle, middle I would have thought needs to be 0.2mm bigger than the spindle diameter

The centre hole needs to be fairly tight I would have thought. If you measure the Oyaide mat centre hole and the bottom diameter of the mat, the bit that sits into the Technics platter (inside of the lip) that would work....at a guess.


Regards D S D L

MCRU
07-12-2010, 21:03
Ok I cannot measure it yet as all the mats I had are out on review!

Not a problem though.

MartinT
07-12-2010, 21:04
No problem, Marco, it'll keep and be something to look forward to. I really want the PH SR5 to bed in when it arrives and I need to get used to the combined overall sound before hearing your bonded platter. I'm hoping that it all gels together well because I'm not ready to shell out for another platter just yet.

Do you think the Oyaide weight is a no-brainer over the Bruil or is it not clear cut?

Reid Malenfant
07-12-2010, 21:05
This mat thing... What you are attempting to do is create a good interface between the vinyl & platter as well as (& probably more importantly) damp the standard platter to prevent the thing ringing like a bell :scratch:

Looking at it from my way of thinking you'll never get the platter damped by using similar metals, you'll just sucseed in raising the frequency that the ringing will occur at. Now i'm not any kind of expert but the Copper bonded Mike New platter makes perfect sense to me. You have two dis-similar metals with totally different Young's modulus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus) which should definately help cancel out any ringing by the platter due to the different flexibility or hardness of the metals.

The fact that the copper section of the MN platter is annealed makes it softer & thus it'll soak up any resonant behaviour of the aluminium much better. You have some kind of weird sandwich here that gives the best of both worlds :eyebrows:

I'm just wondering how a bonded sheet of lead (Pb) would work in this situation. It'd be softer than annealed copper & damping wise it'd be far better. Or maybe just a lead mat might be pretty good, just don't go trying to eat it :lol:

Maybe i'm a bit crazy so forgive me, but it's something i'd be willing to try on my deck. It's not a Techie though ;)

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 21:10
Ok I cannot measure it yet as all the mats I had are out on review!

Not a problem though.

I will dig out my metal straight edge ruler and measure the one I have :doh:

Regards D S D L

MCRU
07-12-2010, 21:12
Don't really understand it all myself, why should a metal sound better than say cork or felt. If it is an interface between vinyl and steel (presume that is what the stock platter is made from) then a vast array of materials could potentially work as well as copper, a thin sheet of acetal would be worth a punt as that has superb resonance absorption properties, it's no co-incidence that Nordost's Pulsar points (which I sold shit loads of) were made from aluminium. Maybe they should be made from copper!

Marco
07-12-2010, 21:26
No problem, Marco, it'll keep and be something to look forward to. I really want the PH SR5 to bed in when it arrives and I need to get used to the combined overall sound before hearing your bonded platter. I'm hoping that it all gels together well because I'm not ready to shell out for another platter just yet.


That's a good plan :)


Do you think the Oyaide weight is a no-brainer over the Bruil or is it not clear cut?

No, in the final analysis it wasn't clear cut. There were pros and cons of using both, although in the end I felt that the synergy was better with the Bruil, but that more than anything may have been because I'm using the MN platter, and not an Oyaide T/T mat.

My advice would be to hold off with any T/T weight changes until I come down with my version of Mike's platter, prior to which I'm sure David would send you an STB-MS stabiliser to try.

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
07-12-2010, 21:42
Don't really understand it all myself, why should a metal sound better than say cork or felt. If it is an interface between vinyl and steel (presume that is what the stock platter is made from) then a vast array of materials could potentially work as well as copper, a thin sheet of acetal would be worth a punt as that has superb resonance absorption properties, it's no co-incidence that Nordost's Pulsar points (which I sold shit loads of) were made from aluminium. Maybe they should be made from copper!
Cork or felt don't have enough mass to damp the platter imo. They are lightweight & as such the platter being heavier alloy will control the overall situation. Copper is heavier than alloy or aluminium per unit volume (higher density) so it stands to reason that a heavier something is needed to control the platter imo :)

Marco
07-12-2010, 21:54
Yup, but there's probably nothing wrong with using the likes of a cork or soft rubber mat to 'cushion' the record and prevent 'chatter', when placed on a metal T/T mat :)

This is precisely why I'm going to try the Blue Horizon on top of the bonded copper mat of my MN platter.

It's the use of solely a light felt or cork mat that perhaps isn't the ideal solution, although of course much will depend on the design of the T/T concerned and what type of mat was used by the manufacturer to 'voice' its sonic presentation. The LP12, for example, works very well with a felt mat, athough it works even better with an Achromat! ;)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
07-12-2010, 22:04
Agreed Marco ;) Once the natural resonance modes of an alloy platter such as the Techie one have been taken under control i'd agree with you :)

The thing is though is to damp out the standard platters resonant modes & two metals that are vastly different in stiffness appear to do this nicely. The soft copper prevents or should i say seriously reduces the ringing of the standard Techie platter (because it's so soft & has a decent mass) so you hear the music better with less of the TT being evident.

Like i say, some kind or weird sandwich - but one that does what is needed :eyebrows:

Spectral Morn
07-12-2010, 22:05
Centre hole 7mm, total distance across is 286mm.

The copper mat will need to be 100% flat.


Regards D S D L

Marco
07-12-2010, 22:28
The thing is though is to damp out the standard platters resonant modes & two metals that are vastly different in stiffness appear to do this nicely. The soft copper prevents or should i say seriously reduces the ringing of the standard Techie platter (because it's so soft & has a decent mass) so you hear the music better with less of the TT being evident.

Like i say, some kind or weird sandwich - but one that does what is needed

Yup, Mark, that's precisely why I had Mike anneal the copper plate/mat onto my version of his platter :)

The same 'sandwiching' principles also apply in the design of turntable plinths, which I suspect will be the final modification to the Techie, and something I believe Mike has been working on ;)

Marco.

MCRU
07-12-2010, 22:29
It won't be hard to place it under a dead weight to flatten it out. I will see what thicknesses are available tomorrow.

MartinT
07-12-2010, 22:31
Marco - did I miss something or did you try the Achromat on top of your bonded platter? What was the result?

Marco
07-12-2010, 23:22
No, mate, you didn't miss anything, as I haven't mentioned it.

Unfortunately the Achromat wasn't a good match with the bonded copper mat on the MN platter, mainly because the Achromat is rigid and somewhat slippery, and so skids around the place like a DJ slip mat, with the resulting sonic consequences!

Obviously though, you're not finding this a problem with the standard MN platter :)

Marco.

markf
08-12-2010, 03:02
I can't help thinking what would be the effect if you put a flexi disc on the Oyaide mat ,
the holes underneath the record might make certain areas under the thin disc act like a drum skin,
I would assume the effect becomes less as the record gets thicker.

Mike_New
08-12-2010, 03:40
I'm just wondering how a bonded sheet of lead (Pb) would work in this situation. It'd be softer than annealed copper & damping wise it'd be far better. Or maybe just a lead mat might be pretty good, just don't go trying to eat it :lol:

Maybe i'm a bit crazy so forgive me, but it's something i'd be willing to try on my deck. It's not a Techie though ;)

The thought had occured to me, but there are not any church's in my area!!!

Mike

Mike_New
08-12-2010, 04:15
I can't help thinking what would be the effect if you put a flexi disc on the Oyaide mat ,
the holes underneath the record might make certain areas under the thin disc act like a drum skin,
I would assume the effect becomes less as the record gets thicker.

You are essentially on the right track in your thinking Mark.
Attempting to use a thin copper sheet is going to be an exercise in trivia, to the extent that if you are going to use a copper mat then you should be prepared to do so in a sensible way and use the excellent copper mats that are now available and which measure 3 or more mm in thickness. They do the job properly as they were designed to do.
The Standard Techi platter is somewaht dished, and a thin copper foil is just going to flutter like a diaphram if it is put ander the Oyeida.
Secondly this thin sheet cannot be anealed easily, so what are we gaining here??

markf
08-12-2010, 05:01
I was literally thinking of a flexi disc record, actually playing one directly on top of the Oyaide mat

MartinT
08-12-2010, 08:09
mainly because the Achromat is rigid and somewhat slippery, and so skids around the place like a DJ slip mat, with the resulting sonic consequences!

You were the one advocating double-sided tape! I'm possibly going to try Vaseline to achieve an even better bond with the platter.

DSJR
08-12-2010, 08:40
Glycerine instead?

Clive
08-12-2010, 09:22
If you don't mind re-applying it every so often you'll find spray-mount works, it's a spray on glue used for temporarily sticking card to walls.

MartinT
08-12-2010, 09:29
Good ideas, chaps!

Marco
08-12-2010, 09:56
Hi Martin,


You were the one advocating double-sided tape! I'm possibly going to try Vaseline to achieve an even better bond with the platter.

Lol - yes, when the stock platter is being used, which the Achromat seems to 'adhere' to better, even without the use of double-sided tape. Using the latter simply improves the 'bonding' effect further.

I agree though that Vaseline, or possibly Glycerine, would be even better. However, the copper surface of my MN platter is too 'slippery' to start with to facilitate any attempt at bonding the Achromat to it.

Also, with the Achromat being 5mm thick, it creates a 'sponge' effect on the platter, when a record is placed on top, which has absolutely no 'give' in it whatsoever, even with the Bruil weight sitting on top, therefore the net result is a sort of slippy, spongy 'discus' that floats above the surface of the platter with the record on top - not good!

What you want is for the top mat (whatever it is) to adhere firmly (couple) to the record and platter underneath with no slippage whatsoever, like the Herbie's does, but one which imparts a more desirable sonic signature. It also needs to be thin. This is why I'm going to try the Blue Horizon and Origin live mats, which I think could do the trick. Another would be the thin rubber-type mat that's used on SME T/Ts.

Basically, all you want the 'top mat' to do, presuming an MN platter is in the equation, is to 'cushion' the record from the metal surface of the platter while the Bruil weight bonds it tightly to the surface, whilst imposing minimal sonic signature of its own, in order to prevent 'chatter' between the record and the metal surface of the platter.

In any case, for me this is simply a trial, as with the MN Copper Composite Platter there may be no need for further mats of any type. At the moment, I can detect no effect of any 'chatter'. The only way I'll know if this is anything to worry about is if or when the 'effect' is removed by the use of a 'top mat', as described above.

Do you see what I mean? :)

Marco.

theophile
08-12-2010, 10:13
Marco,
thanks for documenting your adventures in mat/platter land. :)

Things become interesting when(beyond which turntable one owns)one's turntable mat and/or the platter material/profile rears it's head as the limiting factor.It tells me that your system needed attention at the 'Source' link of the system chain.The rest of your system is obviously passing the Source resolution along nicely.

One of the biggest reasons I elected to purchase my turntable was the equipment options which the turntable was offered with.The standard platter is 6.5Kg.The motor is designed to be used with the optional 'gunmetal' platter which weighs 18Kg.This infers that when using the standard platter that the motor and the bearing itself are both operating under conditions for which they are greatly over-specified.The gunmetal platter sells in Japan for a higher price than the stock turntable,and available examples usually sell within minutes of being listed.This tends to indicate that whatever the gunmetal platter contributes to the sound,one could fairly conclude that purchasers are prepared to pay big bucks and wait for years to get one that they must be certain that it will be worth their while.A gunmetal platter for this turntable is a one trick pony.If word got around that they sucked,one would be stuck with them.

I have the stock 6.5 Kg platter(a finely machined delight),but would dearly love to own a 16.5 stainless steel platter which one can purchase in Japan.

On the subject of mats,have you ever looked into the 'cork/foam spotmat'?

MartinT
08-12-2010, 10:21
Also, with the Achromat being 5mm thick, it creates a 'sponge' effect on the platter, when a record is placed on top, which has absolutely no 'give' in it whatsoever, even with the Bruil weight sitting on top, therefore the net result is a sort of slippy, spongy 'discus' that floats above the surface of the platter with the record on top - not good!

Yes, I see. In my case the Achro has such a tight hole over the MN bearing that it's a snug fit without slippage and the double-sided tape keeps it in place. I will try eliminating the tape and using Vaseline tonight to create a tighter bond between the two materials and will report back.

Marco
08-12-2010, 10:31
Well, it'll be a chance to get the Vaseline out again for a different purpose than usual! :eyebrows:

Seriously though, what you need to keep in mind with the purpose of the top mat, is to create a coupling, rather than a decoupling effect between it, the record, and the platter underneath - and to remember that ANY slippage is a no-no. We're not DJs doing 'scratching' in a night club! ;)

Marco.

chris@panteg
08-12-2010, 10:42
Vaseline ? you surprise me Marco ' i thought you were a KY jelly man :eyebrows:

Marco
08-12-2010, 10:47
Only the edible chocolate-flavoured type, Chris! Hey, what about KY to bond the mat?? :eek:

Doncha just lurve thread drift on AoS!! :lol:

Marco.

chris@panteg
08-12-2010, 10:54
Lol now that could work:)

i must apologise to everyone for lowering the tone , i hate myself sometimes :eek:

Marco
08-12-2010, 10:58
Yesh, you're a very bad boy - you never ever see me do things like that! :bum:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
08-12-2010, 12:24
Guys

Ummmmm any substance like vaseline etc will surely migrate across the surface of the platter (to the outside edges maybe ?) and into the electronics, through the holes ?

Spray mount might be an idea but applying it without getting it everywhere will require using masking tape to protect the parts you don't want it on....unless you spray the bottom of the mat. All a bit messy for my liking.

Marco have you tried your Herbies mat below the Oyaide or Copper mat instead of above ?


Regards D S D L

Clive
08-12-2010, 12:43
Spray mount might be an idea but applying it without getting it everywhere will require using masking tape to protect the parts you don't want it on....unless you spray the bottom of the mat. All a bit messy for my liking.
Regards D S D L

Spray mount is easy, I did indeed simply spray the back of the Achromat (for me 301), it degrades over time and is easy to shift. If double sided tape is used it's a pain to remove from the mat, it adhere's very well....

Ammonite Audio
08-12-2010, 12:59
I have tried spray mount and found it not so easy to remove from the underside of an Achromat. It is clear that the Achromat works far better when stuck to the platter - the same also applies to the SRM acrylic mat that I use on the Kenwood.

Marco
08-12-2010, 14:11
The SRM mat may be another option, Shuggie - thanks for reminding me of it :)

Neil,

Yes I've tried the Herbie's on top, but it adds a bit too much of its own signature, and thus to a degree dilutes the effectiveness of the bonded copper mat. I need something more sonically neutral to perform the job of the 'top mat'.

Also, my Herbie's mat is cut for the size of the Techie platter, which of course is too small now for the MN one.....

I've found an old thin version of the Techie rubber mat, which originally came with my deck from KAB in the US, and plan to try that later to see what happens - you never know!

I'll report back with the results :cool:

Marco.

MartinT
08-12-2010, 14:43
That reminds me, Marco, my Herbies is a standard 297mm diameter, 3.7mm thickness, rather than the smaller one for the Technics platter.

Marco
08-12-2010, 15:07
Yep, mate, I remember you ordered a standard sized one when you got your MN platter :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
08-12-2010, 19:47
The SRM mat may be another option, Shuggie - thanks for reminding me of it :)

Neil,

Yes I've tried the Herbie's on top, but it adds a bit too much of its own signature, and thus to a degree dilutes the effectiveness of the bonded copper mat. I need something more sonically neutral to perform the job of the 'top mat'.

Also, my Herbie's mat is cut for the size of the Techie platter, which of course is too small now for the MN one.....

I've found an old thin version of the Techie rubber mat, which originally came with my deck from KAB in the US, and plan to try that later to see what happens - you never know!

I'll report back with the results :cool:

Marco.


Try it as the interface between the platter and the mat above be it copper, Oyaide or what ever. Its sticky therefore will hold in place whatever you put above/on it....that's what I was suggesting. Damping and grip.

Regards D S D L

Marco
08-12-2010, 22:59
Hi Neil,

I'm with you, and will give it a try, but I'd rather not use any more than one (very thin mat) on top of the bonded copper mat/plate of the MN platter, as I suspect that's the best way to go :)

Well..... I tried putting the thin rubber mat, which originally came with my Techie, on top of my MN platter - and then results were............very good!

First of all, there's something I have to mention about the bonded copper mat version of the MN platter that before now I hadn't realised or considered, and it's that Mike has obviously designed it to be used with some sort of mat on top, as unlike the Rubato copper mat, there is no centre recess for the record label...!

Therefore, this results in records not sitting flat against the surface of the copper mat/plate of the platter, which of course is far from ideal. I was wondering why some of my records that I thought were pretty flat seemed a little warped!! :doh:

Thing is, despite that, things sounded so bloody good, and until now I hadn't really given much thought to the lack of any centre recess cut into the copper plate/mat of my MN platter...

So, anyway, when the thin Techie rubber mat is used (which has a label recess), it therefore allows the record to sit flat on the platter, which of course makes a big difference - and I can clearly hear the sonic benefits of this (less noise, greater detail and clarity).

What I don't know is whether the rubber mat is removing any effect of 'chatter' between the record and the metal surface of the MN platter, and I doubt I'll ever find that out unless I can somehow get a label recess cut on the copper plate/mat of my MN platter and compare the difference between using it with another mat or not.

However, what I can say for sure is that anyone buying a Copper Composite platter from Mike will have to factor in the use of a thin mat to put on top, to allow the record to sit properly flat, unless Mike decides to incorporate a recess for the record label into his future platter designs.

The question is now, which mat is best for this purpose? Well, the thin rubber Techie one which came free with my T/T, is giving very good results, so we'll see if the Blue Horizon mat David's sending me does a better job, or perhaps the Origin Live......

Anyway, it's all interesting stuff, and of course I'll continue to keep everyone informed of my progress! :cool:

Marco.

theophile
08-12-2010, 23:11
Have you looked at mats like the Boston Audio Mat 2?

Mike_New
08-12-2010, 23:20
Marco,
I have not included a label recess into the Copper Composite Platter, for the simple reason that I do not consider that one should place records directly onto a hard surface, metal or otherwise. As I believe they require to be bedded down onto a soft plient surface for best sonic transfer. This implies a mat of some sort, many of which have allowance for the label or are soft enough to allow the label to depress the centre of the mat under the influence of the centre weight. Hopefully the thin OL mat when I eventually get mine to try!

I obviously can most certainly provide for a label recess for any one requiring it, at no extra cost, as it is merely a simple additional machining opperation.

Marco
08-12-2010, 23:32
Have you looked at mats like the Boston Audio Mat 2?

Nope - got any links? :)

{Edit: just had look.... Interesting, although I think that the Mat 1 may be better suited to this particular application (being lighter and thinner): http://www.boston-audio.com/mat1.html }.

I'll look into it - cheers!

Marco.

Marco
08-12-2010, 23:46
Hi Mike,


Marco,
I have not included a label recess into the Copper Composite Platter, for the simple reason that I do not consider that one should place records directly onto a hard surface, metal or otherwise.


In theory, I agree.

However, that theory is blown out of the water when one listens to the Rubato copper mat on its own (which has a label recess), used on top of the stock Techie platter, which sounds superb (for reasons already explained in my final conclusions).

That's what I was trying to create when I asked you to bond a copper mat/plate to the platter you were making for me, so that I wouldn't need to use any further T/T mats on top....

Thing is, I didn't consider the aspect of having a label recess cut - my fault! :doh:

It's not a problem, though, as I *suspect* that the addition of an appropriate soft mat, as you describe, will provide further sonic benefits over and above allowing for a label recess :)

The thin rubber one I'm using at the moment is doing a good job, but I'm sure it could be bettered by something similar but of rather more novel design, such as I will be testing in due course.


I obviously can most certainly provide for a label recess for any one requiring it, at no extra cost, as it is merely a simple additional machining opperation.

It could be something to bear in mind in future. Let's see what results are obtained with the various 'top mats' that are going to be tested, and take it from there :cool:

Marco.

thankyoumisterman
09-12-2010, 04:08
This is timely reading for me. I have ordered a copper mat from TTWeights in Canada (they make mats for the 1200 series and the SP-10s), and an Applied Fidelity bearing for my 1200, and am looking forward to doing some comparison listening. I currently have a Herbies Way Excellent mat on the platter, and will do some comparisons with and without the Herbies on the copper. The TTWeights is 1.86 kg, I believe, so a little over 4 lbs. The AF comes with an optional tall spindle to accommodate layered mats in this way.

Mike_New
09-12-2010, 07:17
Guys

Ummmmm any substance like vaseline etc will surely migrate across the surface of the platter (to the outside edges maybe ?) and into the electronics, through the holes ?
Regards D S D L

Dalek,
I think you are somewhat incorrect in your assumption here.
Vaseline or a good quality silicone grease is an excellent way to "connect the two surfaces". The grease forms an excellent vacuum seal between the two surfaces.
The effective atmospheric pressure (at sea level) is equivalent to about 14.7lbs/sq-inch; thus the effective pressure holding the two surfaces together is about 1,665lbs weight!! Properly applied the grease will not tend to migrate anywhere. It also takes up any deviation in flatness between the two surfaces.

I have use it with excellent results on my TT weights copper mat and alluminium Platter.
The problem is that it is damn difficult to remove the mat after a few months because of the amount of suction, as the two surfaces progressively bed down!!!!

Ian Walker
09-12-2010, 08:27
Hey guys,have you ever thought about putting a record on from time to time?...they do sound better than mats :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

DJ e.

DSJR
09-12-2010, 08:43
+1 :lol: :D :peace:


If it's cheap enough, the Spacemat below is excellent and really does properly support the record.......

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF1423-1.jpg

Marco
09-12-2010, 09:08
Hey guys,have you ever thought about putting a record on from time to time?...they do sound better than mats :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Yesh, put on shome Shister Shledge, and Dishco Dave will shwivel his hipsh in his Chrishtmas shlipper-ettes and do wee shimmy-shingo for all hish fans (mostly over 90).... :dance:

Marco.

DSJR
09-12-2010, 09:10
You mean Disco HiFi dave I hope :ner:

Marco
09-12-2010, 09:11
Hi Trey,


This is timely reading for me. I have ordered a copper mat from TTWeights in Canada (they make mats for the 1200 series and the SP-10s), and an Applied Fidelity bearing for my 1200, and am looking forward to doing some comparison listening

Que? Never heard of it - tell us more! :)

Marco.

Marco
09-12-2010, 09:54
You mean Disco HiFi dave I hope :ner:


Lol - I was talking about Dave Hewitt, matey, a mutual friend of Ian and mine (known as 'Disco Dave' for his penchant for doing a wee boogie-woogie when listeing to tunes on big Tannoys that he's too tight to buy, haha)..... There are too many Dave's on here - bloody common as muck, you lot! :lol:

Marco.

Dave Hewitt
09-12-2010, 10:11
Marco you should get out and try some beer mats.:lol:
Disco Dave.

Marco
09-12-2010, 10:20
Yesh, I think this one would probably BLOW you away:


http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2358/santasbutt.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/i/santasbutt.jpg/)


:eyebrows:

Marco.

pure sound
09-12-2010, 10:41
These people?

http://www.appliedfidelity.com/

Marco
09-12-2010, 10:53
Cheers, Guy. Interesting... It shows how much modding the Techie is catching on!

I don't think Mike's got too much to worry about with those products though ;)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
09-12-2010, 10:54
The bearing and solid black mat look interesting but no pricing :doh:


Marco I mean't use the Herbies on top of the Technics platter with copper or Oyaide or other hard mats on top....sorry for not being clearer with my question.


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
09-12-2010, 10:56
Dalek,
I think you are somewhat incorrect in your assumption here.
Vaseline or a good quality silicone grease is an excellent way to "connect the two surfaces". The grease forms an excellent vacuum seal between the two surfaces.
The effective atmospheric pressure (at sea level) is equivalent to about 14.7lbs/sq-inch; thus the effective pressure holding the two surfaces together is about 1,665lbs weight!! Properly applied the grease will not tend to migrate anywhere. It also takes up any deviation in flatness between the two surfaces.

I have use it with excellent results on my TT weights copper mat and alluminium Platter.
The problem is that it is damn difficult to remove the mat after a few months because of the amount of suction, as the two surfaces progressively bed down!!!!

Interesting.....



Regards D S D L

chris@panteg
09-12-2010, 11:04
I think that 's Jim Howard ? he got into a right old argument with Dave Cawley over on the VE about his bearing mod being as good as Mike new's or Dave's bearing mod .

The thing is he was prepared to back it up with some high quality rips ! and i can't argue with that , also all his customer's say its superb .

Marco ' i don't know if you are aware but Richard of Vantage audio also has bearing and platter upgrades for the 1200/1210 ! around £140 ish for the platter and similar for the bearing , but i don't know yet what exactly he does but i will ask in my next email , (he's sorting out my other deck).

Marco
09-12-2010, 11:06
Hi Neil,


Marco I mean't use the Herbies on top of the Technics platter with copper or Oyaide or other hard mats on top....sorry for not being clearer with my question.


Cool - but there's no point now, dude, as the Techie platter (for me) is no longer in the equation, and so now the tests in that respect are over, I may as well use it as a Frisbee! ;)

Marco.