View Full Version : Recommend me an amplifier for System 2
isuckedmandelsonslemons
29-11-2010, 16:38
OK guys I need your help and advice.
I underwent a massive upgrade recently and my main system is now as follows
CD YAMAHA CDS2000
AMPLIFIER YAMAHA AS2000
SPEAKERS USHER 6381
I'm delighted with the system (but always up for improvement) and after selling a few bits and bobs I thought I my as well have a decent second system in the gym where I spend quite a bit of time during the winter months when I can't do my cycling training outdoors.
I have just acquired another Yamaha CD player (the CDS1000, I'm snowed in so can't collect it yet) and have a pair of Castle Howards from my own system. My current amp in system two is a very old (but good in its day) Marantz PM44SE.
Obviously the Marantz amp is the weak link in System 2 so what do I do?
All suggestions gratefully received even those mad ones suggesting moving the Yammy 2000 upstairs to the gym and replacing that in the main system
isuckedmandelsonslemons
30-11-2010, 14:27
So, nobody has a single thought or suggestion?
Did I post this in the wrong place?
Hi Harry,
I suppose it all depends on dosh...but given that it's your second system you probably don't want to push the boat out too much.
I've got 3 secondary systems, if that isn't a tautology, I've gone a bit squeezebox mad throughout the house. Anyway I've found that T-Amps are an excellent option, as long as you don't want multiple inputs.
Under £100;
Temple Audio Bantam Classic (15wpc) @ £90
Muse M21 EX + Power Supply (25wpc) @ about £90 (including shipping from China)
Over £100;
Temple Audio Bantam Gold (25wpc) @ £179
The above are all staggering value for money, the Muse is probably about the best value but there's little comeback on the warranty etc, whereas the Temple Audio ones come with an auto 3 year warranty.
Ali Tait
30-11-2010, 15:41
Agree about the Tripath amps. I had a Hlly T-amp 90 and thought it was very good. Better with a good pre to drive it though IMHO.
Agree about the Tripath amps. I had a Hlly T-amp 90 and thought it was very good. Better with a good pre to drive it though IMHO.
...and then you could go with the Bantam monoblocks, but I suppose it's a question of cost.
Ali Tait
30-11-2010, 17:27
Yes,I'd imagine they are very good too.
Or try a second hand Rotel RA-04, beauty of an amp, 40Watts
I had an RA 05 (the 04 with a remote control) and thought it detailed but 'thin-sounding'. That's not to suggest Batty is in any way wrong - the Rotel just didn't work well in my system/room. One man's wine is another man's poison...so to speak.
I replaced the 05 with a second hand Arcam A85 for about what I got for the Rotel and, in my opinion, it was a significant step up.
That said the T amp appeals to me too... I very nearly bought a KingRex the other week but I got a Sugden A21a instead (!)
Being a Sagittarius I am allowed to be whimsical.
I suppose the question here is budget...
Harry are you out there?
it's down to cost, as the Howards I heard (the 2's?) sounded thick, clogged up and almost boomy unless the room was huge and the amp extremely capable..
Good used buys for the Castles could be one or other of the better Harman Kardon models from days of old. They were good, but in the shadow of the beer budget Rotels, of which a RA972 might be worth trying if the price is right.
I'm told that some of the very recent Yamaha home cinema receivers are better than you'd expect and some of them can have their amps bridged to double the wattage output - either that or use the extra channels for bi-amping. They have decent DAC's in them too I'm informed, and their headphone amps are supposed to be top quality - all this for a very few hundred quid...
dave2010
01-12-2010, 20:45
I'm still trying to get to grips with Temple Audio's Bantam Gold. I think that for the money many will find it staggering. I feed mine into a pair of Sanyo Hi-Fi Ones - which really work well with this amp.
A few points - it does go loud, but perhaps not VERY loud. Most will find it loud enough I think. My gut feeling is that it's not so good as the volume levels are reduced. Also it doesn't have a headphone output. That doesn't bother me, as I feed it from a Beresford Caiman with a headphone socket, and headphone output. If you want a unit with a headphone output, there are Bantam variants which do that - though allegedly not such high quality audio, and also the power is lower.
Maybe I'll report back again in a few months when I've evaluated the Gold further.
Hi Dave,
Have you tried the Bantam Gold on the higher gain setting? Do you notice any depreciation in sound quality? Although I'm sure there is, I find it hard to detect.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
02-12-2010, 11:37
I suppose the question here is budget...
Harry are you out there?
Thanks for the response so far fellas.
As for budget it depends which way I go.
If I relegate the AS2000 amp to the second system I guess I'd have to spend an awful lot of money to get better sound from my main system.
Maybe the answer is to wait for an AS1000 amp to come onto the second hand market.
I guess if I replaced the Marantz PM44SE I'd need to spend £300-£400 to get a significant improvement.
Yes, I'm confused as to which way to go. I guess that's part of the fun.
In no hurry though as having picked up the Yamaha CD from a forum member (thanks again Mart) I'm astonished at the improvement over the Arcam CD machine I was using and pleasantly surprised at the job the PM44SE amp is doing. I know it was highly rated at the time but this amp is about 13-14 years old so I wasn't expecting that much from it. It is underpowered for the Castles though.
Any other suggestions? Please keep em coming.
If I were starting again I think I'd go with the Bantam monoblocks, particularly in conjunction with a decent pre-amp.
Are your main speakers bi-wireable? You could go the whole hog, get 4, and bi-amp, they're 40w apiece.
They'll certainly save on electricity bills...:)
isuckedmandelsonslemons
02-12-2010, 12:54
If I were starting again I think I'd go with the Bantam monoblocks, particularly in conjunction with a decent pre-amp.
Are your main speakers bi-wireable? You could go the whole hog, get 4, and bi-amp, they're 40w apiece.
They'll certainly save on electricity bills...:)
OK, I've just had a look at the Bantams. Without being totally dismissive they look like something that has been knocked up by an BTEC student. Typically British I suppose.
Are they really so good. What makes them good?
BTW my speakers are bi-wired at the moment so I could feasibly go for four Bantam monoblocks. What about a preamp if I went that route?
Knocked up in some sweatshop in Sale I think...
Firstly I've not heard the monoblocks...so there's some dangerous guesswork here I suppose.
They are effectively the bantam gold (which I've had for about 2 months now), without a preamp stage, and both channels used for mono amplification, hence 40wpc, as opposed to the original 25wpc.
They aren't exactly a T-Amp (different chip I think), but the concept is similar, they are digital amplifiers of analogue signals, and are about 90% efficient in energy usage.
As for the sound quality, opinions differ, but I'm very impressed with the ones I have.
I'd recommend the Gold (or either of the other two I mentioned) for a secondary system, however at 25wpc I'd be a bit worried on my main system, hence the monoblock option.
For your budget, I can recommend an Audiolab 8000S. They've been discontinued and the last few around can be picked reasonably cheaply.
For your budget, I can recommend an Audiolab 8000S. They've been discontinued and the last few around can be picked reasonably cheaply.
I can't really argue with that either, as I have an S in the bedroom, and a Q/SX/P combination in my main system...either direction is good :)
My money would go on a Marantz PM7200. Grossly underrated and you can find them on ebay at reasonable prices
isuckedmandelsonslemons
05-12-2010, 12:59
OK, I'm now a man with a plan. It's a medium to long-term plan.
As the Marantz PM44SE is doing a much better job than I thought it would I've decided that it will do for now.
The next move will be to move the Yamaha 2000 amp upstairs to the gym. Probably a bit OTT for a second system but during the winter months I spend about 2 hours a day in the gym so it's worth it.
Such a move will mean that I will need a new amp for the main system.
Obviously I want a significant improvement on what I have at the moment and because of 'her indoors' the new amp will have to look nice. I really like the idea of a pre/power combo or even bi-amping. I really don't know where to start.
It's not a money-no-object upgrade and to be honest I'd prefer to but ex-demo or used. All suggestions gratefully received.
Well in that case...
I have a pre/power bi-amp rig for my main setup...
Audiolab 8000Q pre, 8000SX power (65wpc on the treble), 8000P (100wpc on the bass), they're gain matched.
2 8000Ps would probably be better, but I'd upgraded from an S/SX bi-amp configuration (S now in the bedroom), and 100wpc across the tweeters might be considered overkill.
There're plenty on ebay...
isuckedmandelsonslemons
05-12-2010, 15:05
I'm sure the Audiolab stuff is very good but it just doesn't do it for me. Sorry.
No problem chap...each to their own:)
Nowt wrong with the later black-cased UK built Audiolabs if you choose your cables properly :) They're reliable and long lived with proper relay protection if the contacts are shorted out. I'd love to have heard what the original designer Derek Scotland would have done to develop these products further, had the company not been sold on. Tag tweaked a few components I understand, but apart from butcher the styling and increase the prices, they did little else to the existing products except to the one box CD player, which was substantially re-designed as the first Tag CD player.
Vinyleyes
10-12-2010, 17:31
I'm also looking for a 2nd system integrated. Could anyone recommend the best Audiolab version out there .. I am monitoring several on Ebay but do not know the differences. Which year were they discontinued. Also how would you describe their sonic strengths and weaknesses ..
Thanks
IMO, the best Audiolab pre Tag is the 8000S - the exact matching amps being the 8000PX and MX models. Just don't use wires that etch or finely delineate the signal and you'll have no trouble IMO.
hifi_dave
10-12-2010, 21:50
Tag tweaked a few components I understand, but apart from butcher the styling and increase the prices, they did little else to the existing products.
They did some fantastic packaging and then there was the little brass lapel badge....:rolleyes:
The wonderful and almost free after-care evaporated too, each 15 minute "unit" being carefully calculated and every new box to return the goods in costed too. A fuse replacement would cost the dealer £50 or so after all the calculations.
I'm also looking for a 2nd system integrated. Could anyone recommend the best Audiolab version out there .. I am monitoring several on Ebay but do not know the differences. Which year were they discontinued. Also how would you describe their sonic strengths and weaknesses ..
Thanks
Hi Brian, the last batch of pre TAG audiolabs have a serial number prefixed with an 'F', which I think equates to about 1998 or around then.
I have a Q, an SX (an S without the pre amp), and a P in my main system, and an S in the bedroom, it was originally paired with the SX but I upgraded last year with the addition of the Q (upgraded Chinese one), and the P. Apart from the Q the rest are 'F' reg, as it were.
The PXs are highly regarded (upgraded P), and don't come cheap, all X suffixes are 'F' reg, they were the last models released prior to TAG.
If it's integrated you want then the S is better than the A, be careful though the S runs hot and if they are left on continuously they do burn themselves out, I've had mine repaired for this very reason.
Sonically IMHO they are very neutral, and open, I don't think you would describe them as 'warm'
FYI I've just taken delivery of a Mini-T T-Amp, based on some recommendations from Jerry on GAZJAM's thread in this section...
And at £65 delivered it is absolutely staggering, it was intended as a Christmas present, however after a couple of hours listening I've decided that it's not leaving this house. The intended recipient is now getting my Bantam Classic instead...
If you can live with the single input, and 20wpc is enough for your second system, I strongly recommend it.
I'm using a Copland CSA14 hybrid amp to drive my Howards, works extremely well in my opinion. I have not thought of changing either since 1995 when i bought them. A good combination.
sparky68
14-12-2010, 09:10
could have a looksie at the XTZ which is what ive had for a couple of weeks now and i think its brilliant,
built in DAC so couple a hundred saved there if you need a dac.
XTZ (http://www.xtz.se/uk/products/electronics/class-a100-d3-black)
Haselsh1
14-12-2010, 10:07
I have no idea of your budgets and the like but what about a secondhand Croft...? They are generally hybrid these days with the inputs all being ECC82 and the outputs all being MOSFET. I had a pre/power for sale a few weeks back but have now decided to keep it and just change my loudspeakers.
Ok, I know that a new Croft pre/power is around eleven hundred quid but it is the most immediately impressive amplifier I have ever heard in over thirty years of listening and being involved with hi-fi.
It’s almost impossible to recommend an amp on the information you’ve given Harry.
So much depends on what you like in the way of music and how its presented to you.
Some love the sound of valves; I cant stand em usually. If you like say a lot of classical and acoustic then a valve amp might well suit you.
Some like the Tripaths; I don’t go much on those either. I haven’t heard many but they seem a bit incisive and clean for want of a better description for my tastes.
I think the Copeland recommendation is good. I haven’t heard a Copeland amp I didn’t like, just a bit too smooth for me though.
I’m not interested in that last bit of detail if I’m falling asleep listening out for it.
Amps that excel at frequency extremes often seem to lose something in the mid range to my ears unless you’re spending a lot of money.
What I like is a fast musical sounding amp that doesn’t need to be driven to clipping to get my speakers sounding alive. Hearing stuff you’ve never heard before with an amp is cool and of course, detail is important. But if the detail comes at the cost of pace and musicality I would rather not have it.
Here are a few of amps that I think give the type of sound I like that are under a grand new and can be found for considerably less secondhand.
Exposure 2010S.
Rotel RA1520
Alchemist Axiom
Roksan Candy
I think we've just about covered all the best used options now, always a problem with these open ended questions ;)
isuckedmandelsonslemons
15-12-2010, 10:53
Thanks guys. Plenty of food for thought.
I've decided that I'll look for a cheapish second hand amp to upgrade the Marantz in the second system because it's just not powerful enough. Next autumn I will replace the Yamaha AS2000 in my main system with a pre-power combo. I have a few in mind but open to suggestions. The AS2000 will then go into the second system.
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