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I am a complete beginner in all things vinyl and have been restoring a Thorens TD150 Mk1.
http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/MokoMilk/Thorens%20TD150%20Rebuild/IMG00185-20101030-1737.jpg
But I now need some help in the final setup, great as the internet is for information I have no idea of how to set the bounce of the deck, fit a new tonearm, fit & align a cartridge etc.
What Iam looking for ideally is someone in the London / M25 area who would be willing to teach me how to setup a turntable properly in the classic show one / do one tradition.
So for all you guys with years of experience fettling LP12's, Thorens etc here is your chance to pass on your knowledge.
Thanks in advance.
David
Hi David,
Good luck with this. Dave (DSJR) is your man, who I'm sure will be along to offer his advice shortly! :)
Marco.
Hello Moko :)
I’m going to ask you what may seem a silly question.
Are you going to stay with suspended sub chassis decks?
If the answer to the above is yes and you can’t find anyone to set it up for you then you will need a couple of things to ensure you get it right.
You will need a jig that supports the deck at the edges of the wooden surround high enough off the ground to enable you to work underneath the deck while the base is removed and that you can adjust to ensure the plinth is absolutely level.
You will also need something called a Dial Test Indicator. You can pick them up quite cheaply with a magnetic stand.
If you’re prepared to go this route then I’m willing to write a set of detailed instructions for you.
I’m certain some contributors will tell you you can do it all by feel but it takes experience and in my experience most who set up these decks just by feel don’t often get it right.
I guess I am going to stick to suspended decks, as I now have a TD160 as well courtesy of Hamish which I will hopefully renovate as well once I get the first one set up properly.
When I tried to set the springs intially I just balanced the deck on 4 cans of beer (big ones!) as they were handy and all of a regular height and then checked with a spirit level to check the deck was level before I attempted playing with the springs!
The Vinyl Adventure
27-11-2010, 17:46
I was wondering how far you might have got with it all... Keep us posted :)
I told Hannah about you saying how much you liked our dining room and you recognising the g-plan side board... She was over the moon!! She is talking about packing in her job at the hospital so I have been trying to convince her he should try and get into interior decoration... Poor thing, shed be able to make the louge as nice if it wasn't for the hifi ... Ah well :)
Moko.
I had in mind something a bit more stable than 4 beer cans :eek:
Some record deck shelves that attach to the wall are ideal if the support plate can be removed from the surrounding metal work. That’s what I used to use.
Anyway, let’s see if some kind soul volunteers to come and show you how to do this first before I start typing ;)
DTI
Plunger style rather than lever style might be easier to use for this application
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=dial+indicator&tag=googhydr-21&index=aps&hvadid=6733217461&ref=pd_sl_7zh9673vf9_b
Well Hamish I'm sure they will be Q of people waiting to take it all off your hands.
I've had a bit of a detour in my plans as I was going to go down the MM route and put a Linn Basik Plus on my Thorens 150 when someone offered me a Linn Linto M/C phono stage at a good price.
Hence I then needed an M/C cartridge and the only one avaliable at my budget was a Denon 103 so I am now stuck wether to put the Denon on your old 160 and use the TP16 arm which apparently people have pretty good reports using.
The other alternatives are to put eithier the Linn Basik Plus, or the TP16 or even leave the original TP13 arm on my TD150 and then fit the Denon......god it all get's so complicated when you just want to play some records (and some people think computer HiFi is complicated!)
Dave, where are you when you're needed?? ;)
Marco.
Ill in bed for most of the day :(
Right - the first thing to do is download the Linn LP12 set-up guide, as geometrically, the decks are extremely similar and much set-up info is shared between the two.
The 150's didn't have the cam washers at the bottom of the springs to aid centering, so try not to disturb the springs unless absolutely necessary. If there are sponge dampers inside the springs, remove them with some fine long-nosed pliers. The best place to check for piston-like bounce is about 2" from the centre at 2 o'clock, not the spindle as on the 160.
The next thing is earthing. The chassis of the turntable is connected to the rh channel screen and this link should be removed and replaced with a separate earth wire, either to the amp, or alternatively, replace the mains lead with a three core type - my old Garrards are both earthed to the mains via heavy duty three core cable and the signal wires not connected to chassis and I have no hum whatsoever (I have rumble instead :D).
The belt is by far the weakest thing on these decks and should be regularly replaced with the official part, which is now readily available again for £20 or less. Once replaced, turn the top platter upside down and place on the inner. ALWAYS give the platter a helpful push when starting and watch to see if the belt settles in the middle of its guide. if it doesn't, confirm the sub-chassis is level (on the 160, hold the black cam washers still while rotating the 2BA/M5 nuts for levelling). There is a screw between the motor and platters and this should tilt the motor sufficiently to enable the belt to run in the correct place.
Put some EP80 oil in the bearing wells, too much and you'll get a "hydraulic lock," followed by an overflow, so be careful. I'm not sure if the Crown turbine oil Thorens used is available easily, but either the EP80 or maybe Johnnie's oil (Audio Origami) should be fine (I haven't a clue what's in my TD125, but there's plenty there and the platter on mine runs for well over a minute from 33 to stop with belt disconnected - 55 seconds should be a minimum time I understand.
If you're with me so far and you get the decks) running right, the TD150 works better than ever in a more substantial plinth. A mate had one in an old Linn LP12 plinth and the top plate was a perfect fit (I wonder why?????). The gap on the right was filled with a wood fillet. There may be others now who can make a decent replacement plinth too.
Lastly the arm.. I don't like these arms being written off and junked, as they're really not bad at all, if nowhere near Jelco standards. The M44 in your Td150 could have an N55e stylus fitted to advantage (I want to try the Ed Saunders one, Swiss made and the diamond hand fitted and aligned to his spec). I've used AT's at 1.75 grammes too with no difficulty and the Shure M97Xe should be great if the stabiliser is used (the M75-EJ was extremely popular for these at the time). The Stanton 680 with elliptical tip and the ever popular Pickering XV15/625 would be great as well. Alignment is a doddle and the headshell is tiltable fore and aft for level. A drop of ever popular EP80 in the horizontal arm bearing shaft and thrust-point would be to advantage.
The TD160 arm is rather different. Massy but stable, it can be re-wired one day to advantage. Do the earthing mod above, filing gently any exposed soldering points so the solder will "take" to it. Any bearing chatter in the arm can be adjusted out if you're careful and the friction-less bias correction is good too. Cartridges? Almost any good mm will work and the Denon 110 too. I'd guard against a 2.5 gramme tracker as this will load the drive up too much IMO and cause dynamic wow, the thing that decent idler and direct drives strive to eliminate.
Lastly, try a solid rubber or acrylic mat. If the 150 has the multi-ribbed original mat, this is good IMO and will make a good reference. The TD160 mat isn't as successful at terminating the vinyl IMO.
Good luck :)
Dave.
I think its setting the springs and ensuring the platter centers up properly without fouling that Moko is having problems with, maybe some advice on dressing the arm cable as well. I changed the arm leads originally supplied with my Hadcock and SME’s for something more flexible.
Imo the above two points are what most people unused to suspended sub chassis decks (and a few Hi Fi shops) get wrong.
Thanks for all the info Dave
I have made a heavier plinth using 18mm MDF and veneered it in teak.
http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/MokoMilk/Thorens%20TD150%20Rebuild/IMG00181-20101030-1545-1.jpg
I also got Joels kit from ebay so have oiled the bearings / motor spindle and changed the belt which came with the kit.
So far so good but I didn't know about the mains lead so I might look into this.
The next part is more difficult which is where hopefully someone can give me some prractical help.
So, what’s with the Dial Test Indicator some may wonder (others may think oh god please no he’s going to measure something again :eyebrows:)
Indeed I am, or rather have in the past when setting up decks.
You can gauge the sub chassis spring pressure with a DTI and a known weight; weight on one side of the platter, DTI 180 degrees on the other side.
You can check the concentricity of the platter.
You can check the platter rotates on a plane without wobble.
You can check the motor spindle gives concentric spin.
You can check if the deck is subject to vibration in situ.
You can check any deviation of the platter with regard to spindle and hub.
You can check that the platter returns to the same position for a given sideways force.
You can even check for spindle bearing wear and the effect of different quantities of oil.
Being able to measure these things takes a lot of the guesswork out of setting up your turntable.
Sure, you can do all of the above by eye and feel but most people I know who have suspended sub chassis decks use a DTI to check their setups. It’s a bit like car tuning; there are always tales of the guy who pops the bonnet, cocks his ear and fiddles about producing a perfectly tuned engine. You don’t see an awful lot of that in the pits at a race track though ;)
If you’ve got the deck mounted on a suitable shelf then you can do all this without worrying about disturbing the beer cans as the evening progresses.
I think I may write out a set of instructions anyway over the next few days. They may be of interest to some :rolleyes:
I think your guide wouldbe really useful, the problem I have is that I have no idea when setting up as what to aim for with some ballpark measurements I would at least know I was on the right track.
To use your engine tuning analogy I can adjust the carb but as I have never heard how an engine sounds I have no idea when to stop!
Thats why in my original post I was asking if there was anyone willing to show me in person how to set up a deck.
I’m going to try to explain how I set up a Thorens/Linn style suspended sub chassis decks.
Even if you don’t use my method, you’ll get some idea of what you’re aiming for.
I dare say most, or all of the following can be found elsewhere on the net.
I’m writing this to get what I have done written down in one place in the hope it may help out those who are new to, or uncertain about setting these types of decks up.
I’m not attempting to start a discussion on the topic and there are other ways of achieving the same ends. If you believe you know better, then instead of taking a swipe at my efforts take the time and trouble to write your version of such a guide.
Some people may not feel happy stripping a deck completely believing the will upset the manufacturers settings. The thing is manufacturers don’t set the decks as such. It’s usually the dealer who does this.
In the case of the majority of second hand decks it’s a fairly safe bet that an owner has at some time altered the dealer settings.
I’m assuming the deck is placed on a stable arrangement with the base removed giving access to the inner underside and that the top plate is level.
The object is to get the sub chassis to return to the same position after each disturbance and to absorb vibration through the spring arrangement without the arm board fouling in the plinth cut out and without placing undue strain on the drive belt. If the springs exert too much pressure the sub chassis won’t centre under the weight of the platter and arm assembly and you may find the belt will travel off the platter hub; too loose and every little disturbance will cause the platter to wobble around uncontrollably and you’ll have problems with cartridge tracking and drive belt tension.
You need to have the arm, (and preferably the cartridge with stylus removed) platter and mat all in place to set the deck up.
The arm doesn’t need to be adjusted but it needs to be present with all its attachments because it adds considerable pressure to the closest spring. If the arm leads can be unplugged from the arm pillar base then for the initial settings its best to remove them. If not then ensure that the arm cable to plinth surround clamp is done up and the arm leads are adjusted in such a way that they give minimum restriction to sub chassis movement while adding the minimum weight to the spring that supports the arm. A bit of trial and error will show the ideal arrangement.
The following section is relevant if you plan to strip the decks suspension completely to check component condition.
It is a good idea to check the springs at this point and if you’ve added any weight to the sub chassis, hub or platter consider buying up-rated springs. Up-rated springs used to be available for most makes of decks.
To remove and check the springs its best to scrape off any varnish/paint used to lock the nuts and washers in place. If you don’t do this there is a possibility of unscrewing the entire stud from the top plate which will mean you will have to strip the entire chassis arrangement to access the top securing nuts. Tighten the nut initially (clockwise) to free it from the stud and then undo it.
As you remove stuff it’s a good idea to note the sequence they were assembled in and which bits came from which stud.
On the decks I’ve come across all the springs have the same specification. Some enthusiasts go to great lengths to match springs for direct compression and lateral movement. I personally don’t bother over much as the springs will end up at differing rates of compression in situ.
If you stand the springs on their largest diameter and they are noticeably different in height (unusual) then replacing the lot may be a good idea.
Check the top and bottom of the springs for rough edges. It’s worth rubbing the top and bottom inner and outer edges with some fine emery cloth to give a small radius. Pay particular attention to the spring ends.
Some decks have a flat steel washer and a plastic cam washer, (a washer that looks like a wedge viewed side on). Some have felt/fibre pads between washers (Linns have grommets) and or between spring top and plinth. Some have foam inserts inside the springs. In fact, I’ve seen some fairly bizarre arrangements on second hand decks. Once again, I personally don’t like foam inserts finding they catch on the stud preventing the spring and stud from settling into their natural alignment.
It’s worth replacing anything obviously worn or damaged.
Check the studs look straight and there is no obvious damage to the sub chassis itself. They do get bent!
A steel rule held edge on to the underside of the sub chassis may help to show if it’s been bent.
I think fitting cam washers to any suspended sub chassis deck of the Thorens/Linn type aids alignment. I’m sure others would disagree. What they do is allow you to position the washer so that one side of the spring is under slightly more pressure than the opposite side. This gives a force which can be adjusted so as to push the sub chassis towards a central resting position.
They are easy enough to make from thick plastic spacers using a very sharp hobby knife and to roughly get the angle and then rubbing on a sheet of aluminum oxide paper to obtain a smooth finish. Getting a precise angle isn’t that important but getting a flat finish for the spring to rest on is a good idea if you want everything to stay in place.
I used to make them and then stick felt washers to the spring seat side of cam washers to help stop spring movement in relation to the washer.
Bearing and spindle.
The bearing needs to be perpendicular to the sub chassis. There is no easy way of checking this but with the interference fit bearing housings if it’s taken enough of a knock to dislodge it the marks on the housing should be apparent.
It isn’t that unusual in second hand decks to find no oil at all in the bearing!
The spindle should not show any signs of wear on the shaft or the tip. A decent magnifying glass is handy here. It isn’t that unusual in second hand decks to find no oil at all in the bearing
Dirt does get into the bearing. Clean with a cotton bud with a little bit of sewing machine oil on it if you don’t have the correct viscosity oil to hand.
Part 2 & 3 to follow.
So far so good I have done all the things you have listed when I completly stripped my deck down.
On the Thorens 150 Mk 1 the covering aluminuim plate which hides all the screw heads is only secured all round the edges by double sided tape appprox 2cm wide so it is relatively easy to slowly work something thin under the edge & gently pry it off without bending it.
Can't wait for parts 2 & 3.
Well my Denon 103 arrived today so I decided in the interests of ease of use and after reading around even more to stick with the original TP13 Mk1 arm that the deck came with. So I removed the old cartridge and set up the new one using a Thorens Baerwald arc protractor I downloaded from VinylEngine.
Looking at the null points the stylus is exactly over them at both points and the cartridge to my eyes looks level and even on the graph part.
How tight to do the bolts I guessed at tight but not too tight!
I then used the setup guide in the original manual to set the stylus overhang at 18mm
And finally after a bit of WD40 on the counterweight adjusted the weight to exactly 2.5g using a digital scale from ebay.
My question is what should I do next or is that it should I just go ahead and plug it all in? Sorry if this all sounds dumb but I have never set up a deck before or changed a cartridge.
Its been a day for the postie today as a HiFi News Test Disk also arrived for final tweaking.
Just thought I would attach some photos so you can check over my work so far
http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/MokoMilk/IMG-20101201-00006.jpg
First point
http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/MokoMilk/IMG-20101201-00007.jpg
Graph Bit
http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/MokoMilk/IMG-20101201-00009.jpg
Inner point
If I have done something obviously wrong please let me know:rolleyes:
Well I plugged it all in and intially it sounded fine the music played out of the correct speakers & the cartridge tracked ok.
.....and then something changed the needle now skips about & won't track properly. I have rechecked the weight and it appears to be 2.53
http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/MokoMilk/IMG-20101202-00010.jpg
So what should I be checking to get everything set up correctly?
Any advice would be most gratefully received as I don't have a clue what to do next.
As per Thorens manual setting the overhang to match the edge of the sloping part of 45 adaptor
http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/MokoMilk/IMG-20101202-00011-1.jpg
Hi Moko
The easiest way to adjust tracking is with a Hi FI test record and a multi meter. Basically the record provides two channels of sound at a particular frequency and you measure the voltage output at the end of the arm leads.
Tracking gauges aren’t the most accurate of methods because of parallax.
I will get part 2 finished soon but I’ve been playing with my rebuilt speakers I’m afraid.
With regard to the miss tracking, have you set the bias correctly?
Thanks for the reply, was starting to think that the world had all gone "The Day After Tomorrow" and there was only me left!
Strangely enough it all sounded fine until I put the HiFi News test record on for the first couple of channel tracks and then the cartridge just started jumping / skipping so something must have changed but what and how to correct it I don't know.
The sound was coming out of the correct speakers fine & sounded pretty good but unfortunately I have no idea of how to set bias.
Reid Malenfant
03-12-2010, 13:54
I'm going to mention something that just struck me as a tad obvious & if it's still as pictured it'd really mess things up :doh:
The last picture showing the overhang with a 45RPM adapter happens to show a lead from the cartridge to headshell that looks to me as if it'll be damn near as low as the stylus & if this is the case you really don't need to look any further :eyebrows: Move it upwards ;)
Yes I noticed that and tidied the red lead into the head shell much better.
As to the skipping after going back through & checking everything so that it seemed ok to me it only left one thing that could be causing the skipping....the record....I had purposefully choosen an old record so it didn't matter if it got damaged whilst setting up but I think it was this was causing the skips and when I changed to a new record the tracks played right through with no problems.
Wether this is an optimal set up god knows...but hopefully with some more advice & a copy of the HiFi News LP I should hopefully get there!
Well I am still trying to work out what to do & have been reading around more and having a play with the HiFi News LP, have to say the tunes arn't up to much very minimal techno!
I am starting to pick up the lingo, so I wonder if anyone here can tell me if from the pic below I have the VTA set right?
http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/MokoMilk/IMG-20101204-00013.jpg
And then on this one is the azimuth set correctly?
http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/MokoMilk/Enfield-20101204-00014.jpg
Thanks as always for any suggestions
I'm surprised only three people have offered any help as I would have thought that everybody in the Analogue Art section must have some experience in setting up tonearms & cartridges....well even if they don't have loads of experience they certainly have more than me!
In general if new people coming to vinyl don't receive or can't find any assistance then surely vinyl and everything that goes with it will die out eventually.
A few suggestions of what to aim for and how to use the Hifi News LP would be useful as the instructions that come with it are very minimal and seem to assume the user will know what to do with the various tones.
Thanks hoping a bit more of response will happen after this post
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