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Effem
26-11-2010, 22:54
As some of you might know, I do know a thing or two about cables :lol:

I really don't know what made me do it as I have more than enough wires to play with already, but I instantly needed a 2 metre pair so I bought these off ebay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270607356311&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_3672wt_1139

Belkin Pure AV Silver Series interconnects for a massive fiver a pair delivered.

For a mere fiver you get some great sounds and beats by a country mile many costing upwards of £100 and probably more. Most cables play with the audible spectrum so they either have a bass emphasis or a treble emphasis giving the proverbial "bright" or "warm" tonalities, but these cables demonstrate neither trait. Sparkling top end with excellent retrieval of details, clear midrange and a bottom end with plenty of weight, yet remaining taut.

There have been many "flavours of the month" cables which I have tried and been singularly unimpressed with, but these are a true revelation - they even made Bruce Windscreen sound listenable.

Reid Malenfant
27-11-2010, 18:53
Hi Frank, looks very interesting indeed :) I can't work out how come they are so cheap, you couldn't buy the plugs for that money :scratch: Talking about the plugs, i like the fact the centre pin is split to give a more solid contact...

Think i'll have to try out a pair myself, cheers for the link matey :cool: Very much appreciated ;)

MCRU
27-11-2010, 19:03
Free postage as well, must be from the same job lot as the PF30 and PF40 units? Ordered 1 myself, the seller must have got them for free!

MCRU
27-11-2010, 19:07
The seller is called olu olubaji FYI!

Jonboy
27-11-2010, 19:18
just bought 2 pairs, if they are no good i will just re use the plugs with some mic lead

Ali Tait
27-11-2010, 19:28
Even cheaper here-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0007YBFEY/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Reid Malenfant
27-11-2010, 19:30
Not quite sure i like the look of that guys feedback :eek: 96% isn't very hot :eyebrows:

Effem
28-11-2010, 07:53
just bought 2 pairs, if they are no good i will just re use the plugs with some mic lead

The plugs are enclosed in a plastic moulding so they won't be worth much once you have hacked them off.

Jonboy
28-11-2010, 10:15
The plugs are enclosed in a plastic moulding so they won't be worth much once you have hacked them off.


oh well its only a tenner

tommy6206
28-11-2010, 12:54
Well I orderd 4 sets any thing got to be better than what I have now lol

Effem
28-11-2010, 16:03
Just gone to buy another pair and the bugger has increased the price :rolleyes: It's only the postage amount, so this still represent excellent value :eyebrows:

Let me know how you boys get on with your purchases

Ali Tait
28-11-2010, 17:09
Buy the ones from Amazon.

Reid Malenfant
28-11-2010, 18:35
Well I orderd 4 sets any thing got to be better than what I have now lol
Funny that, i did the same thing yesterday :lolsign:

No wonder the guy has decided to up the price with a run on them like that :eyebrows:

serendipitydawg
30-11-2010, 13:01
Thanks for the tip. I ordered a set from the Amazon seller. Less than 48 hours from order to delivery. No need to worry about the feedback.

Haven't tried them yet. Will try to report back later.

Thanks again

Ali Tait
30-11-2010, 13:17
Quicker than the ebay seller! Mine have just been posted today.

Jonboy
30-11-2010, 17:47
Mine too, he must be rushed off his feet with all this sudden interest

aquapiranha
30-11-2010, 17:53
I have been using Belkin Pure AV speaker cable for years, cost me £25 for a 50M reel!

Reid Malenfant
30-11-2010, 17:54
Quicker than the ebay seller! Mine have just been posted today.


Mine too, he must be rushed off his feet with all this sudden interest
Make that all three of us :eyebrows: I'm in no rush though & i like sellers that leave positive feedback before i receive stuff :)

DSJR
30-11-2010, 20:00
Got mine this morning. 3m long and the plugs are a moulded on version of the cheaper Cable Talk ones, with rare split centre pin. Can't break into them as a result, but the construction looks very much like the QED Qnex 2, and that was a better cable for £30 than some contrived sounding £100 interconnects. This Belkin is wonderful value for a fiver or slightly more.

serendipitydawg
30-11-2010, 22:30
Just noticed that the Amazon seller put their price up! Not terribly ethical?? Obviously that's where the 96% feedback comes from.

Effem
03-12-2010, 10:49
Just received my second set and more improvements have been gained.

I dare not tell you the cost of the interconnect it has just replaced :eek:

isuckedmandelsonslemons
03-12-2010, 12:11
Just received my second set and more improvements have been gained.

I dare not tell you the cost of the interconnect it has just replaced :eek:

As the seeker of truth and justice I think you should tell us

Effem
03-12-2010, 13:40
As the seeker of truth and justice I think you should tell us

Oh OK then :lol:

A while back I deal a swap deal for some Furutech mains cable for an interconnect called the "Ultimate Cable" which is purported to have the purest silver and all the ultimate materials within, but I couldn't tell you what the original purchase price was. The intrinsic value of my swap deal was over £80 so even that has made the Belkin cable a good deal for me as I hope to sell on the fancy pants one :eyebrows:

Just looked on the UC website and the prices have been slashed dramatically since I last looked :(

tommy6206
03-12-2010, 15:49
Well mine turned up today and I'm very pleased with them so I just ordered 3 more sets.

Ali Tait
03-12-2010, 18:12
Wish mine would.We've had no post all week.

Reid Malenfant
03-12-2010, 18:19
Mine arrived yesterday along with some other kit :) I couldn't work out what the hell this parcel was until i got the outer wrapping off :scratch:

Dirty great big boxes inside of a thick clear plastic presentation type case :eyebrows: Someone is making a loss somewhere & it's not me ;)

They do look very nice indeed for the money, can't lose in reality :cool:


Hope your turn up soon Ali, fingers crossed for no more snow your way ;) Naff all to speak of here...

Jonboy
03-12-2010, 18:45
Wish mine would.We've had no post all week.


Same as, stuck in snow somewhere

Techno Commander
03-12-2010, 18:58
Just grabbed myself 4 sets as well.

anthonyTD
04-12-2010, 10:52
hi all,
after reading this thread with interest i decided to purchase a few of these leads to evaluate and disect if nescesary to see how good or bad they are in my own system, i started off by using one pair from my power amps to my preamp, and one pair from CD player to preamp, well,,,i must say what i experienced was' as others have found very intersting! they do seem to produce an even balanced sonic presentation and as such produce a musical experience that is comfortable to listen to without reducing musical detail etc, the only real criticism i have from my short period of listening was that over all impact may be reduced but as stated that is my initial findings and a longer period of listening may prove that criticism to be misplaced.
anyway, i decide to disect one to find out their construction and to get an understaning of how it does what it does etc, well, i must say i am impressed at the effort that has gone into its design, first thing you hit when you cut through the outer casing is a quite sparse copper screen which on its own i feel would be of little use as far as over-all screening duties are concerned, the next layer is a foil screen [much better] then you come to the intersting bit, the cable is of a balanced design, ie; using to cables of the same size etc for signal send and return, next is a bit of a shock to be honest, when you strip back each inner conductor insulation you find that each strand configuration is individualy insulated! but thats not it, the strands are of a diffrent construction, some are solid cores, some are of a twisted stranded type!
needless to say, i have a lot of respect for the person or persons who came up with this design as they have clearly done their homework and have managed to produce a cable that [for the price] seems to cover most avenues as far as neutrality is concerned.
Anthony,TD...

Marco
04-12-2010, 11:06
Well, based on what bodgee-boy's just written (lol), I've bought a couple of pairs (before the bloody price goes up! ;)), and when they arrive I'll compare them to my Mark Grants (and Barry's D.I.Y cables he has loaned me) to see what all the fuss is about......

Look out for a full review soon! :)

Marco.

P.S It would be interesting hearing what effect fitting better quality phono plugs to the undoubtedly excellent cable would make, as I suspect this is where the main costs have been cut.

DSJR
04-12-2010, 11:16
They could save a mint on the excessive packaging though. Such a shame when this has to be chucked in the recycling bin once opened. I remember the Cable Talk packing (good but nowhere near as elaborate) costing around a fiver a lead (retail probably, so around a quid all in, in factory terms).

Marco
04-12-2010, 11:24
You chuck your packaging out? :doh:

I don't - every box, packet, wrapper or whatever, that have contained something I've bought for my system, is kept and put up in the loft, so if anything is sold, I have all the original packaging to sell it in 'as new' condition (I always keep everything I've bought absolutely mint), and therefore get more money for it in the end! ;)

Marco.

anthonyTD
04-12-2010, 11:36
Well, based on what bodgee-boy's just written (lol), I've bought a couple of pairs (before the bloody price goes up! ;)), and when they arrive I'll compare them to my Mark Grants (and Barry's D.I.Y cables he has loaned me) to see what all the fuss is about......

Look out for a full review soon! :)

Marco.

P.S It would be interesting hearing what effect fitting better quality phono plugs to the undoubtedly excellent cable would make, as I suspect this is where the main costs have been cut.
:lol::lol::lol:
To be honest daftee the plugs are not that bad, having a good tight fit outer ring, and a split centre pin for added contact pressure!
as stated i disected these cables so you dont have to and of course to get a better understanding of their construction, i have used cables in the past that utilise individualy insulated cores, and have actualy made my own speaker cables of a similar design.
i am not saying that these cables are the be all and end all, but for what they seem to do, they do very well.
Anthony,TD...

DSJR
04-12-2010, 11:43
You chuck your packaging out? :doh:

I don't - every box, packet, wrapper or whatever, that have contained something I've bought for my system, is kept and put up in the loft, so if anything is sold, I have all the original packaging to sell it in 'as new' condition (I always keep everything I've bought absolutely mint), and therefore get more money for it in the end! ;)

Marco.

For an interconnect worth a fiver, I don't usually bother to keep the packing, as this wire will just disappear into the collection. I didn't have the patience to carefully cut round the seal so the outer casing wouldn't have been worth keeping. I have all the rest though, even the Eltax boxes the Spendors were in....

Marco
04-12-2010, 11:53
Lol - I know (I was mostly pulling your leg) but there's a very good chance these cables will go significantly up in price in the near future, due to the huge demand *if* they're as good as is being reported, therefore keeping the packaging will help hold any future increased value they may have ;)

Anyway, that's not why I bought them. The enthusiastic comments about them so far (coupled with Anthony revealing their construction, which I liked the sound of) has merely piqued my interest :)

Marco.

Marco
04-12-2010, 11:59
:lol::lol::lol:
To be honest daftee the plugs are not that bad, having a good tight fit outer ring, and a split centre pin for added contact pressure!
as stated i disected these cables so you dont have to and of course to get a better understanding of their construction, i have used cables in the past that utilise individualy insulated cores, and have actualy made my own speaker cables of a similar design.
i am not saying that these cables are the be all and end all, but for what they seem to do, they do very well.


Hehehe... I don't disagree, double-daftee, but there's nothing to stop me having some WBTs or Furutech plugs (I may try the latter this time) fitted to them to see what happens. It may result in giving birth to another 'giant-killing' cable, just like the Mark Grants ;)

Marco.

Effem
04-12-2010, 12:02
Now I've got the second set they have replaced the resident interconnects so I had a good listen last night. They certainly can scrape a bit more moozik out than their predecessors did, especially in the midrange and that all-important detail but that is at the expense of a TINY bit of fizz way up in the treble. Oddly enough, there was a lot more imaging depth and placement, so that really did please me. With one cable installed the bass was full and extended, adding the second set has reduced the overall bass output slightly and made it tighter in the process. As I listened though, those criticisms were never at the forefront of my listening sesh, in fact I simply sat there and ENJOYED the noises the system was making.

As my initial post said, for a mere fiver they are a total no-brainer and perform infinitely better than the last "flavour of the month" bargain buy cables I bought on the strength of someone raving about how good they were - they are still unloved in a drawer somewhere. As a bonus too I can swap components up, down and sideways now in the rack without worrying if the connects are long enough as these are a very handy 2m in length.

anthonyTD
04-12-2010, 12:13
Hehehe... I don't disagree, double-daftee, but there's nothing to stop me having some WBTs or Furutech plugs (I may try the latter this time) fitted to them to see what happens. It may result in giving birth to another 'giant-killing' cable, just like the Mark Grants ;)

Marco.
:)
I am trying to fit a pair of WBT connectors to the ends i have cut off, but stripping back the individual insulation on the stranded cores is proving to be a bit of a nightmare:doh:
i will let you know how i get on and if i can remember how to put up some picks they too will follow!
Anthony,TD...

Marco
04-12-2010, 12:20
Lurvely - I look forward to that :)

The reason I suggested this is because from recent experience I know just how much top-notch plugs can transform how an (already good cable) sounds. The only thing I don't like the sound of is the 2m length. Unlike Frank, I don't like long interconnects, as experience so far has shown me that they generally sound worse than the 0.5 and 1m lengths I normally use....... We'll see!

*If* the Belkin, fitted with a pair of £200 WBTs, for example, can outperform some of the genuinely 'hi-end' cables on the market, just like the Mark Grants do, then for £205, we'll have something else to get excited about, cable-wise!

Exploring these sorts of possibilities is what AoS is all about ;)

Marco.

JazzBones
04-12-2010, 12:31
You chuck your packaging out? :doh:

I don't - every box, packet, wrapper or whatever, that have contained something I've bought for my system, is kept and put up in the loft, so if anything is sold, I have all the original packaging to sell it in 'as new' condition (I always keep everything I've bought absolutely mint), and therefore get more money for it in the end! ;)

Marco.

Marco mate, thank you, thank you. I showed Bren your posting as she thought I was the only one on this planet who saved boxes etc in the loft... my day has improved as I know I'm not alone now :)

Cheerfully,
Ron

Jonboy
04-12-2010, 12:35
i'm still waiting for mine :(

anthonyTD
04-12-2010, 14:58
hi all,
well, i have finaly managed to fit some new plugs to the one set of cables, i only needed about a 10 inch pair from my power amp to preamp each side, so unfortunetly most of the one pair of 2mtr cable has been waisted in this paticular exercise :(but i think it will be well worth it!
The core's that i originaly thought were twisted pairs turned out to be spiral wound' fine single strands, so as you can imagine trying to strip this already minute core of its plastic insulation was a real chalenge, after many atempts and waisted cable,,, in the end i decided it might be worth a try to burn it off, which is exactly what i did, and as long as you use a small flame and dont leave it under the strand for too long it will work, leaving you with a very fine spiral of copper [3 in total] to twist to the more robust solid core. I also, decided not to re-connect the outer screen at the amp end as i know this can sometimes interfere with things, so left it connected at the preamp end only which is standard practice on some cables.
anyway, i thought i would add my thoughts here incase anyone else decides to change the plugs, i hope it helps.
Anthony,TD...

Marco
04-12-2010, 15:05
Lol - very good, but what does it SOUND like, daftee? :doh:

Has there been a sonic improvement over the stock cable, and if so, in what way? :)

Marco.

anthonyTD
04-12-2010, 18:33
sorry!!!:doh:
yes, they sound very good, i think changing the original plugs on the one end has improved things a little, voices are very neutral on this cable but top end still has all the detail and speed etc, bass weight is to my ears a little lacking at the moment but obviously they will need to be run in a wee while before i can make any serious judgement, but i think especialy for the money that these cables have real potential over many in their original price range and i suspect a few at well over!!!
Anthony,TD...

DSJR
04-12-2010, 18:42
I've put mine on the croft - Quad II interconnect route and agree that the bass is lighter in texture. However, the Quads love this presentation as do the BC2's it seems. The mid is lovely I think.. I still prefer the various Van Damme's as what I regard as the very best cheapies (made up on eBay for £15 - £20 for a stereo pair), but for £6 to £7 all in, these Belkins are daft value IMO.

Alex_UK
04-12-2010, 20:49
will... not... buy... one...

do... not... need... more... cables...

I'm still resisting! I'm very impressed though with the standard of product that Belkin seem to be producing.

Jonboy
04-12-2010, 21:28
will... not... buy... one...

do... not... need... more... cables...

.

go on you know you want to

DSJR
05-12-2010, 09:20
He will, I can assure you :D

Marco
05-12-2010, 09:54
sorry!!!:doh:
yes, they sound very good, i think changing the original plugs on the one end has improved things a little, voices are very neutral on this cable but top end still has all the detail and speed etc, bass weight is to my ears a little lacking at the moment but obviously they will need to be run in a wee while before i can make any serious judgement, but i think especialy for the money that these cables have real potential over many in their original price range and i suspect a few at well over!!!


Sounds interesting. Bring them up on Friday then daftee and we'll have a listen :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
05-12-2010, 23:51
OK then folks, here's a way to get what is (I think the same cable) even cheaper if you want more than one pair.

This is advertised as a video cable - it's 75 Ohm, but just because the ones in the OP aren't described as such doesn't mean that they're not. Judging a book by the cover, I know, but they look to be identical except for the plug colour coding.

These are sold as single cables.
The price is £1
Postage is capped at £4.99, no matter what you buy from this site.

So it's a little cheaper than the other options if you want two pairs, but it gets progressively better, the more you get.

http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.php?product=BELKIN-01398&cat=1&sub=&cat_title=Pound+Shop&prod_title=Belkin+Pure+AV+Silver+Series+-+Video+cable+-+Mal...

They take Paypal.
Go on Alex, you can't wriggle out of this one now!

By the way, the website is basically an online pound shop - all sorts of shite for next to nothing!!

Spectral Morn
06-12-2010, 00:03
Marco mate, thank you, thank you. I showed Bren your posting as she thought I was the only one on this planet who saved boxes etc in the loft... my day has improved as I know I'm not alone now :)

Cheerfully,
Ron

Me too :) Roof space full of equipment, speakers, cable boxes.


Regards D S D L

Alex_UK
06-12-2010, 07:45
Another box hoarder here, though I lost a lot of my original hifi boxes when I split up from my first wife 10 years ago, but I am terrible for keeping boxes - even for a lot of my daughter's toys - you'd be surprised how much toys with their original boxes can be worth in years to come.

hornucopia
06-12-2010, 17:23
Not quite sure i like the look of that guys feedback :eek: 96% isn't very hot :eyebrows:
I've only got 95% feedback. After 450 @ 100% some idiot with only 2 bought some PS1 games from me (I'd got with a PS1 player and never used.)
Rather than tell me, he just zapped me with "The games don't work" Neg feedback! After all that time going the extra mile to be a good seller!

Reid Malenfant
06-12-2010, 17:39
I've only got 95% feedback. After 450 @ 100% some idiot with only 2 bought some PS1 games from me (I'd got with a PS1 player and never used.)
Rather than tell me, he just zapped me with "The games don't work" Neg feedback! After all that time going the extra mile to be a good seller!
I know exactly what you are saying, it must be bloody annoying :steam: I always check peoples feedback if i'm going to bid on an item they are selling, you can spot the idiot buyers that mess things up for sellers 99% of the time ;)

A single negative wouldn't generally put me off. When there are a few though & recent from different buyers alarm bells start ringing :eyebrows:

I think i was refering to feedback of a seller on Amazon which i don't deal with..

Effem
06-12-2010, 19:56
It's amazing how different people can give you negative feedback for minor issues.

I sent a Sony turntable a while back and the couriers managed to smash the dust cover into smithereens. The buyer sent me photos of the deck and packaging, I sent off the claim form to the courier company and a month later I got the cheque, which was forwarded on to the buyer. Buyer was so very patient and understanding, no negative comments at all.

Contrast that to the clown that gave me a negative because a turntable wasn't packed to his satisfaction. No damage to the turntable whatsoever, be he still went off on one nevertheless. Errrm, "inadequate packing" results in damage, yes? :doh:

Welder
10-12-2010, 19:11
Okay, okay, I admit it; I bought a pair.
(jeez, cant believe I’ve bought these. I swore I wouldn’t EVER but another pair of interconnects :mental:)
Trouble is, I couldn’t make a pair as specified at the price :doh:

John
10-12-2010, 20:19
John you keep playing every now and again with the dark side Lol

Welder
10-12-2010, 21:53
Pah, you may laugh John but look at it from my side.

I’ve got a narrow minded, cynical, and objectivist reputation to maintain and hiccups like this just aren’t healthy, particularly for my wallet which shakes and cringes in a corner the instant I mention Hi Fi :eyebrows:

Many more like this and someone might take me seriously and then the shit will hit the fan :eek:

Reid Malenfant
10-12-2010, 22:02
Many more like this and someone might take me seriously and then the shit will hit the fan :eek:
I couldn't take you seriously, but you have some very interesting & possibly enlightening pictures on here :eyebrows:

Looks like a good life ;) What's a few cables between friends :lol:

serendipitydawg
13-12-2010, 19:22
OK then folks, here's a way to get what is (I think the same cable) even cheaper if you want more than one pair.

This is advertised as a video cable - it's 75 Ohm, but just because the ones in the OP aren't described as such doesn't mean that they're not. Judging a book by the cover, I know, but they look to be identical except for the plug colour coding.

These are sold as single cables.
The price is £1
Postage is capped at £4.99, no matter what you buy from this site.




I ordered some of these and have to report that going by the picture on the packaging they seem not to be identical to the 2.4 metre ones mentioned earlier.

The conductors appear to be different also, with no mention of the hybrid conductor of differing dimensions. It specifically mentions silver plating whereas the audio specified cables don't. The video cables also have a thicker dielectric, so although they appear to be the same diameter as the audio cable the actual conductors are thinner.

I am deeply impressed with the audio cable. I'll try the video cables soon. Presumably they are sutable to be used as SPDIF cables??

Reid Malenfant
13-12-2010, 19:27
Presumably they are sutable to be used as SPDIF cables??
Yes, they should be as they should have a 75 ohm impedance which is exactly what you'd need for S/PDIF ;)

I had a feeling the internal construction would be different, audio cables don't need a specific impedance so it give free reign to experiment with multiple conductors etc, video doesn't unless you like dodgy pictures :eyebrows:

The Grand Wazoo
13-12-2010, 19:49
I bought 10 of these video cables (to make 5 stereo pairs) and also a quantity of the type in the original post. Yikes - cable spaghetti!
I've made listening comparisons between the 2 types and both are good. I found the video cables to offer slightly less definition and detail overall than the audio cables. I also noticed that the bass went a smidge deeper, but was not quite as taught.

I'm very impressed indeed with the audio interconnects, though - the way they treat drums (and especially tom drums) is beyond my experience - I now have a renewed respect for Keith Moon & have listened to Live at Leeds countless times in the last week just to hear the maniac at work!

I'll be revealing more on my experiments with these cables later - I've also got myself some of the speaker cables from the same range.

Reid Malenfant
13-12-2010, 19:55
Just out of interest Chris how long are the video cables? I mean't to ask this before but it slipped my mind (nothing unusual) :eyebrows: I only ask as when i looked at the link you put up i didn't recall any mention of the actual length of them :scratch:

The Grand Wazoo
13-12-2010, 20:01
They're either 1 or 1.2 metres (the latter, I think).

Reid Malenfant
13-12-2010, 20:09
Cheers :)

Effem
13-12-2010, 20:16
I am still "truly amazed" at these interconnects. A couple of nights ago I hooked the cables up to a valve amp I have here and was really impressed some more. This valve amp was now producing awesomely clean deep bass and throwing it well out from the speakers into the room in a holographic way. I have sat on the fence about valve amps for a very long time because I have always felt while a valve amp has many fine attributes that an SS amp will easily "out bass" a bottle amp by a fair margin with a real kick in the guts level of power and depth, but by gum boys I really have changed my tune after fettling this amp up with the Belden wires.

serendipitydawg
13-12-2010, 20:54
I've made listening comparisons between the 2 types and both are good. I found the video cables to offer slightly less definition and detail overall than the audio cables. I also noticed that the bass went a smidge deeper, but was not quite as taught.

I'm very impressed indeed with the audio interconnects, though - the way they treat drums (and especially tom drums) is beyond my experience - I now have a renewed respect for Keith Moon & have listened to Live at Leeds countless times in the last week just to hear the maniac at work!
.

Chris, were you listening to Live at Leeds on vinyl or CD? I'm moved to dig out the relevant version and compare notes.

I am still amazed at the "major sound quality upgrade for less than a fiver" aspect of these cables

The Grand Wazoo
13-12-2010, 22:04
It was on CD. No special claims made about remastering just cheapo bog standard issue as far as I'm aware. There's also a track we listened to - I really can't remember who by or what, but there was a rhythm where a tom featured heavily & we could hear, not just the strike but you could clearly discern the different tone as the skin recovered from the initial whack - something I've never, ever heard so clearly before on any system.

monstermoo
20-12-2010, 16:04
Due to how subjective the topic of 'improvements' offered by various cables can be, I would not normally comment, but I must admit to buying a couple of pairs of these cables and have found the improvements gained in my system nothing short of amazing. I was VERY surprised. A much clearer presentation throughout and the bass is no longer flabby and boomy - it's taut and precise. Initially I was concerned that the cables had resulted in 'brighter' sound which was not to my taste at all. But even after just a couple of hours in getting used to the sound I have decided that IMO it is without doubt vastly improved.

Effem
20-12-2010, 18:22
Due to how subjective the topic of 'improvements' offered by various cables can be, I would not normally comment, but I must admit to buying a couple of pairs of these cables and have found the improvements gained in my system nothing short of amazing. I was VERY surprised. A much clearer presentation throughout and the bass is no longer flabby and boomy - it's taut and precise. Initially I was concerned that the cables had resulted in 'brighter' sound which was not to my taste at all. But even after just a couple of hours in getting used to the sound I have decided that IMO it is without doubt vastly improved.

Now you know why the title of this thread is called "TRULY AMAZED"! :eyebrows:

When a former cable manufacturer (Krystal Kables) says these are MUST HAVE cables for a mere fiver, then bury your scepticisms in the sand and buy some :lol:

magiccarpetride
20-12-2010, 19:45
As some of you might know, I do know a thing or two about cables :lol:

I really don't know what made me do it as I have more than enough wires to play with already, but I instantly needed a 2 metre pair so I bought these off ebay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270607356311&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_3672wt_1139

Belkin Pure AV Silver Series interconnects for a massive fiver a pair delivered.

For a mere fiver you get some great sounds and beats by a country mile many costing upwards of £100 and probably more. Most cables play with the audible spectrum so they either have a bass emphasis or a treble emphasis giving the proverbial "bright" or "warm" tonalities, but these cables demonstrate neither trait. Sparkling top end with excellent retrieval of details, clear midrange and a bottom end with plenty of weight, yet remaining taut.

There have been many "flavours of the month" cables which I have tried and been singularly unimpressed with, but these are a true revelation - they even made Bruce Windscreen sound listenable.

OK, so I'm not in the UK, and I'm wondering which model are you talking about? I found this one on amazon: Belkin Audio Cable RCA 2.4m AV RCA.

Is that the one I should order?

Thanks!

The Grand Wazoo
20-12-2010, 21:08
Alex,
The ones I bought don't actually have model number on the packaging. As far as I can tell, from a quick Google session, in the US it may be:
AV50300 followed by 08 for an 8ft pair, 04 for a for a 4ft pair, 16 for a 16ft pair.

MCRU
20-12-2010, 21:17
Not had chance to listen to mine yet as still catching up on orders but will hook them up on Christmas eve and have a listen through my Roksan CD & Amp, thx for the tip Frank.

magiccarpetride
20-12-2010, 21:18
Alex,
The ones I bought don't actually have model number on the packaging. As far as I can tell, from a quick Google session, in the US it may be:
AV50300 followed by 08 for an 8ft pair, 04 for a for a 4ft pair, 16 for a 16ft pair.

Thanks Chris, I'm just about to order Belkin PureAV AV50300-08 8-Foot RCA Audio Cable ($14.95). The only additional question I have is whether 8ft is the most optimal length, or should I go for a different length? I'm exclusively focused on the sound quality, convenience be damned!

Also, since I'm going from Touch via digital coax into the Caiman and then from Caiman into my preamp, I only need one pair of the cables, right? Or should I also order another pair from preamp into power amp?

Effem
20-12-2010, 21:21
OK, so I'm not in the UK, and I'm wondering which model are you talking about? I found this one on amazon: Belkin Audio Cable RCA 2.4m AV RCA.

Is that the one I should order?

Thanks!

I have replied to your PM Alex :)

Belkin do TWO different version of audio RCA cable. The "SILVER SERIES" has a white outer sheath and the cable diameter is almost as large as the plug. The cheaper RCA audio cable has a grey or black outer sheath and the diameter of the cable is much less than the plug.

magiccarpetride
20-12-2010, 21:23
I have replied to your PM Alex :)

Belkin do TWO different version of audio RCA cable. The "SILVER SERIES" has a white outer sheath and the cable diameter is almost as large as the plug. The cheaper RCA audio cable has a grey or black outer sheath and the diameter of the cable is much less than the plug.

I TOTALLY can't wait to audition these babies! If I'm reading you correctly, Frank, these could possibly outperform many of the pricey high end interconnects that the snobbish staff at my local dealerships keep pushing on me?

If that turns out to be the case, I owe you a round of beer, Frank. Call me when you get into town!

Many thanks,

Alex

The Grand Wazoo
20-12-2010, 23:25
Yes Frank, you've amplified my concern about getting the wrong cable's model number in my reply to Alex. The other type that I got (described as 'for video') were the grey type & though they did sound good, they were not the same.

I wonder whether the white ones have been completely discontinued - hence the low price we all took advantage of.

Alex, if you find them & you have a choice - get the white ones. If you have a choice over length, get the shortest ones your system can accommodate.

magiccarpetride
20-12-2010, 23:40
Yes Frank, you've amplified my concern about getting the wrong cable's model number in my reply to Alex. The others type that I got (for video) were the grey type & though they did sound good, they were not the same.

I wonder whether the whit ones have been completely discontinued - hence the low price we all took advantage of.

Alex, if you find them & you have a choice - get the white ones. If you have a choice over length, get the shortest ones your system can accommodate.

Yes, Frank already communicated to me in his PM that I must go only for the white ones. Stands to reason that the shorter the better...

Alex_UK
21-12-2010, 11:06
This Alex has still resisted... I am rather proud of myself! (But can't help wonder if I am missing out... But then really the only interconnect I would be replacing in my main system would be from DAC to amp - which is a Mark Grant G1000HD and I'm not sure anyone is saying the Belkins are better than Mark's HD cables - are they? :eek: )

Welder
21-12-2010, 11:27
My interconnects turned up finally; one 1.2m white set and one 1.2m a sort of light grey colour.
The white set was bought from Frank’s original ebay link (thanks Frank) and the grey set from Amazon.
I gave up buying cables years ago having dismantled a few and found that those I looked at were basically bits of cable from a cable manufacturer with some pretty plugs (read expensive) and a different type/colour covering. Why people report that what is often a length of standard screened co axial cable for example sounds wonderful with a different covering on and a particular plug sounds far better than the standard offering in white say is beyond me. I get particularly incredulous when people start reporting deeper base or more detail etc.
The cable I’m interested in is the cable you can’t hear.
I can’t hear either of the Belden cables. If anything, they are quieter than my self built semi balanced and at their price cost less than the materials alone would cost me.
That imo is about as good a recommendation as one can get.

anthonyTD
21-12-2010, 13:14
hi all,
one thing i have to clear up, [having dis-assembled a few pairs] the silver series do not have silver conductors or even silver plated, their still copper, i think the "silver" element is just a marketing aspect to explain that these are the better versions than the standard!
i too still marvel at their performance for the price!
Anthony,TD...

Welder
21-12-2010, 13:41
AnthonyTD
Have you dismantled one of the grey audio smaller wire diameter cables and if so, what was inside?

anthonyTD
21-12-2010, 15:01
AnthonyTD
Have you dismantled one of the grey audio smaller wire diameter cables and if so, what was inside?

hi John,
unfortunetly not, i dont have any of that type.
Anthony,TD...

magiccarpetride
21-12-2010, 17:50
Yes Frank, you've amplified my concern about getting the wrong cable's model number in my reply to Alex. The other type that I got (described as 'for video') were the grey type & though they did sound good, they were not the same.

I wonder whether the white ones have been completely discontinued - hence the low price we all took advantage of.

Alex, if you find them & you have a choice - get the white ones. If you have a choice over length, get the shortest ones your system can accommodate.

There is a pair for sale on Audiogon: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablintr&1297324084&/Belkin-Pureav-rca-audio-cable-

The Grand Wazoo
21-12-2010, 17:53
They look like the grey ones to me Alex - the white ones have white grips on the plugs as well as the white braided sleeve.

magiccarpetride
21-12-2010, 18:00
They look like the grey ones to me Alex - the white ones have white grips on the plugs as well as the white braided sleeve.

Shit, don't tell me I've ordered the wrong ones!

Reid Malenfant
21-12-2010, 18:09
They look like the grey ones to me Alex - the white ones have white grips on the plugs as well as the white braided sleeve.
They certainly aren't the video cable version though, the phono plugs are colour coded for left & right ;) There is a serious possibility that they have the same internal construction as these white ones we have.

Shit, don't tell me I've ordered the wrong ones!
The fact is the description looks to be a match so i wouldn't get too upset yet Alex :)

magiccarpetride
21-12-2010, 18:38
They certainly aren't the video cable version though, the phono plugs are colour coded for left & right ;) There is a serious possibility that they have the same internal construction as these white ones we have.

The fact is the description looks to be a match so i wouldn't get too upset yet Alex :)

Oh, good, I was getting all worked up for nothing... The only thing that gets me antsy right now is that this is the worst time of the year to be ordering stuff to be shipped. God knows when will I get them, and whether they'll be able to beat the Christmas rush.

I can't wait to report back on my listening experiences once I install them. Squeamish people be forewarned: a blowhard review is imminent!

Reid Malenfant
21-12-2010, 18:44
Yeah, i know what it's like wondering if stuff will get delivered before the holidays :rolleyes: I'm waiting on all sorts that should have been here by now :steam:

Unfortunately the only way you'll ever really be able to tell if they truly are the same as these white ones we have is to chop off a plug & take a look, not recommended :eyebrows:

The description is the same though from what i read on AudioGon, i wouldn't get too hung up on a sleave colour as it's just a piece of plastic ;) From what i have seen Belkin tend to make things a tad different for the American market & still give them the same model number etc as UK stuff so anything is possible.

magiccarpetride
21-12-2010, 19:55
Yeah, i know what it's like wondering if stuff will get delivered before the holidays :rolleyes: I'm waiting on all sorts that should have been here by now :steam:

Unfortunately the only way you'll ever really be able to tell if they truly are the same as these white ones we have is to chop off a plug & take a look, not recommended :eyebrows:

The description is the same though from what i read on AudioGon, i wouldn't get too hung up on a sleave colour as it's just a piece of plastic ;) From what i have seen Belkin tend to make things a tad different for the American market & still give them the same model number etc as UK stuff so anything is possible.

Yeah, the "silver series" moniker probably hints at the white, or light greyish color on the outside (people claim that there are no silver wires inside).

Please don't shoot the messenger, but some reviewers claim that it takes 15 to 20 hours of burn in time before these cables are ready to be auditioned. Snake oil or honest-to-god truth?

Ali Tait
21-12-2010, 20:02
I think the "silver" refers to the silver solder used in these cables.

Reid Malenfant
21-12-2010, 20:05
Please don't shoot the messenger, but some reviewers claim that it takes 15 to 20 hours of burn in time before these cables are ready to be auditioned. Snake oil or honest-to-god truth?
I'd certainly suggest that they will improve over a period of time & as they are non active (no powered electronics) it won't take too long for them to get to there best.

I don't think it's snake oil at all. The very same thing happened when i installed a Mark Grant HDMI cable between my blu ray player & TV (i know it's digital & a video picture but the same thing applies). The difference between the MG cable & the original was obvious as soon as i tried it, but over a period of a few days the picture kept on improving :eyebrows:

The same can be said of audio cables imo. You'll notice (hopefully) differences between what you are using now & the new cable when first installed. Things will improve further given a suitable amount of use. I'd suggest 20 hours will get it to where it's going to be ;)

DSJR
22-12-2010, 10:15
I've been distressed recently by how my Crowns have been sounding compared to either of the Quads and have been pointing a sneaky finger at the little used replacement Neutrik equipped MG cables (course it's not the amps ;)). I carried on with the 303 and connected the MG cables to the phono outs on the CD player, switching the Crowns on with no speakers connected in the hope that several months of disuse hadn't upset anything (any viewers from the HDD forum will be having heart failure about now). I returned the Crowns fully back in the system yesterday and thought things were "on the mend," with some of the spatial info returning - no problems at all about timbre and fine details, just the way these three amps have with "3-D" information - a valve strong point in any case and something the Crofted II's are really strong on.

I didn't really care about cable burn-in as it's the least of our audio worries tbh, but I HAVE found that any disturbance in a system seems to need some hours playing for everything to settle back down, and this even if one isn't listening to it, so I doubt it could all be classed as imagination/expectation..

anthonyTD
22-12-2010, 10:35
I've been distressed recently by how my Crowns have been sounding compared to either of the Quads and have been pointing a sneaky finger at the little used replacement Neutrik equipped MG cables (course it's not the amps ;)). I carried on with the 303 and connected the MG cables to the phono outs on the CD player, switching the Crowns on with no speakers connected in the hope that several months of disuse hadn't upset anything (any viewers from the HDD forum will be having heart failure about now). I returned the Crowns fully back in the system yesterday and thought things were "on the mend," with some of the spatial info returning - no problems at all about timbre and fine details, just the way these three amps have with "3-D" information - a valve strong point in any case and something the Crofted II's are really strong on.

I didn't really care about cable burn-in as it's the least of our audio worries tbh, but I HAVE found that any disturbance in a system seems to need some hours playing for everything to settle back down, and this even if one isn't listening to it, so I doubt it could all be classed as imagination/expectation..

hi Dave,
i agree about the disturbance thing,:) this is why i think its difficult to know at first listen if a cable or indeed another piece of equipment substituted in is actualy better or worse, as you say you need to give your system time to settle again before making a final assesment, by that time it is easy for one to forget how the system sounded before, hence this is i feel the main reason why people keep swapping back and forth.
Anthony,TD...

Welder
04-01-2011, 18:31
I was wondering how everyone else got on with these Belkin cables.
I bought 3 sets; one from Frank’s original link, silver series 1.2m AV, quad shielded.
The others I bought (Ali’s link) are the RCA Audio Silver Series (1.2m & 2.4m) double shielded, a full mylar foil and outer braid polyethylene dielectric and similar hybrid conductors.
They are not the same cables!

The two cables types sound different; annoying isn’t it :scratch:
I prefer the RCA audio cables (not AV) in my system. The quad shielded AV cables may suit the softer, faster and more coloured sound of a valve/analogue setup better.

I dissected a pair of the 2.4 RCA audio cables (I only want a 0.4m pairs, so it was going to happen anyway) and re-plugged one end. I’m not sure why, but I expected to find a semi balanced construction but these are completely unbalanced. I was wondering if the AV quad shielded were also unbalanced (AnthonyTD?) I don’t really want to hack these up.

I made two sets of cables from out of the 2.4 metre RCA set.
I used these connectors to replace one end for each pair I made.
http://www.thatcable.com/acatalog/info_2_rca_male_audio_connectors.html

I used solder with silver content on all joints. I made both sets 0.4 metres in length but one set semi balanced. The idea is that with the screen connected at source any RFI crap the shield picks up isn’t transferred to the amp and on to the speakers. Anyone else tried this and if so what do you think; any noticeable difference in sound? :doh:

The Grand Wazoo
04-01-2011, 18:40
I tried the 75 ohm quad shielded ones and found them to be not as good in my system as the silver series ones. I haven't hacked any of them about, though.

magiccarpetride
04-01-2011, 20:18
I was wondering how everyone else got on with these Belkin cables.
I bought 3 sets; one from Frank’s original link, silver series 1.2m AV, quad shielded.
The others I bought (Ali’s link) are the RCA Audio Silver Series (1.2m & 2.4m) double shielded, a full mylar foil and outer braid polyethylene dielectric and similar hybrid conductors.
They are not the same cables!

The two cables types sound different; annoying isn’t it :scratch:
I prefer the RCA audio cables (not AV) in my system. The quad shielded AV cables may suit the softer, faster and more coloured sound of a valve/analogue setup better.

I dissected a pair of the 2.4 RCA audio cables (I only want a 0.4m pairs, so it was going to happen anyway) and re-plugged one end. I’m not sure why, but I expected to find a semi balanced construction but these are completely unbalanced. I was wondering if the AV quad shielded were also unbalanced (AnthonyTD?) I don’t really want to hack these up.

I made two sets of cables from out of the 2.4 metre RCA set.
I used these connectors to replace one end for each pair I made.
http://www.thatcable.com/acatalog/info_2_rca_male_audio_connectors.html

I used solder with silver content on all joints. I made both sets 0.4 metres in length but one set semi balanced. The idea is that with the screen connected at source any RFI crap the shield picks up isn’t transferred to the amp and on to the speakers. Anyone else tried this and if so what do you think; any noticeable difference in sound? :doh:

Still waiting on mine to be delivered (I've ordered a couple of pairs on December 20th:steam:)

Ali Tait
04-01-2011, 20:49
Just put two more pairs into the system. AFAIK all the ones I have are silver series (can you tell the difference by looking at the cables?). I'll leave them in for a while and then go back to the MG's to see what's what.

Welder
04-01-2011, 21:18
Which ones did you order Alex and what may I ask are you using now?

Ali, the quad core AV are white and a bit thicker than the RCA twin shielded audio cables. If you’ve bought from the Amazon link you originally posted you’ve bought the RCA audio. They are all called Silver Series.

magiccarpetride
04-01-2011, 21:24
Which ones did you order Alex and what may I ask are you using now?

Ali, the quad core AV are white and a bit thicker than the RCA twin shielded audio cables. If you’ve bought from the Amazon link you originally posted you’ve bought the RCA audio. They are all called Silver Series.

Yes, I've ordered from that Amazon link. I can't remember off the top of my head which interconnects I'm using; me think something I bought nine years ago, some Nordost crap....

Ali Tait
04-01-2011, 21:51
Which ones did you order Alex and what may I ask are you using now?

Ali, the quad core AV are white and a bit thicker than the RCA twin shielded audio cables. If you’ve bought from the Amazon link you originally posted you’ve bought the RCA audio. They are all called Silver Series.

Cheers, all the cablers I have are white and the same, so I either have 4 AV's or 4 audio! Immediate impression with the two new ones feeding the amps is deeper bass.

Ali Tait
04-01-2011, 21:56
Just had a look at the boxes the two new ones came in- they are AD80300qn2M, which I think are the audio ones?

Reid Malenfant
04-01-2011, 21:57
Just had a look at the boxes the two new ones came in- they are AD80300qn2M, which I think are the audio ones?
That sounds familiar :)

The Grand Wazoo
04-01-2011, 23:07
The audio ones are white.
The others are grey.

Welder
04-01-2011, 23:12
Nope, sat here looking at two grey sets of Silver Series RCA audio, twin shilded, split centre pin, hybrid construction.
The AV set from Franks original link are white, quad shielded etc.

The Grand Wazoo
04-01-2011, 23:18
Yours experience is obviously different from mine.
All I know is that my system sounds better with the arrangement I now have. The grey 75 ohm quad shielded ones are in a box beside me now & the white ones are plugged in. That's how it will stay.

Welder
04-01-2011, 23:26
I’m not on about the experience Chris, or which sounds best. I’m talking about the colour designation of the particular types of cable.
The white ones may well sound better to you but to the best of my knowledge they are the AV quad shielded cables Frank linked to and not those Belkin designate as RCA audio.

The Grand Wazoo
04-01-2011, 23:31
Something's awry. I bought 4 of the sets that the original post linked to. They were white. They remain plugged in.
I also bought some others from another source. They were grey. I posted a link to them. They are set aside.

Welder
04-01-2011, 23:39
I’m not being awkward Chris honestly :) but there has been quite a lot of confusion over which type of cable is which and my concern is people here don’t buy the RCA grey, twin shielded cables thinking they are the same as the AV quad shielded that you prfer and Frank originally linked to :doh:
I don’t think the white AV cables you prefer and Frank originally linked to are available any more.
The grey, thinner twin shielded RCA audio cables are.

Interestingly I prefer the grey ones but that’s for another time ;)

The Grand Wazoo
04-01-2011, 23:43
I'm not suggesting you're being awkward, I'm just trying to understand for myself the various different configurations that are/were available.

I'm rather confused as I'm sure others are. Maybe this is why all these different types came onto the market so cheaply at the same time - the range(s) were not clearly differentiated in the packaging & they needed rationalising?

Reid Malenfant
04-01-2011, 23:51
I'm rather confused as I'm sure others are.
No kidding, i have a few of the OP (Effem) cables sitting here though & one day i'll get round to using them, soon hopefully :eyebrows:

Obviously i can't comment now, but given there cheapness it really was a no brainer as pieces of crap could cost more :eyebrows:

Effem
05-01-2011, 06:18
Ooooooer missus, I didn't realise such confusion could arise :scratch:

As far as I was aware the audio cables came in 2 variants, one was of a decent diameter covered in a white shroud and a cheaper variant with a smaller diameter covered in a grey shroud. Both are called RCA audio cables and I thought the "Silver Series" referred only to the white covered type, but it seems even that simple notion isn't quite correct :doh: I have 2 pairs of the white covered ones and none of the grey type.

Welder
05-01-2011, 14:50
Belkin Silver Series RCA audio, twin shield, grey.
Imo where cables get interesting is when differing materials, diameters and cable shapes get used, hollow tube, multi and solid core mixes, build geometry, etc.
Whether such hybrid cables add something to what should be a neutral component is a matter of debate and test but, for me at least, it is easier to rationalise why such cables may sound different.

My custom interconnects have are simpler version of different diameter twisted conductors pairs in an air gapped dielectric and also have a mylar foil and braided screen. I only have one set of analogue interconnects in my system. This makes “cable tuning” a lot easier and cheaper than in a system where a series of components are joined together.
.
If your speakers have matched drivers an interesting cable test is to use a reference cable in one channel and the test cable in the other and play both tones and music. I find it is easier to pick out differences this way than trying to remember how something sounded while I swap cable about :doh:

There are a couple of things that are worth considering if you’re thinking about these cables.
Reluctance to carve up an expensive set of cables is understandable but at these prices experimentation is cheap and informative ;)

If your speakers are capable of producing tight controlled bass, then initially you may find these cables reduce bass impact but what I lost in impact I gained in tone, depth and detail. I think the overall the sound of these cables is probably nearer to the recording than the others I have used, including my favorite custom cables. The cables’ overall sound is, neutral and detailed without getting sweet and doesn’t tend to exaggerate differences in recording quality or mask the limitations of the rest of the system.
Sat directly between my speakers for example, these cables don’t mask the tendency my system have to throw certain frequencies (notably some cymbals and cow bells) on particular recordings too far behind the sound stage or hide the limitations of my amp in deciding where to present instruments in very complex pieces of music.

Given my amps strengths verge on enthusiastic in the mid range frequencies and my treble drivers tend towards accurate but not particularly extended treble (I can’t hear past 16kHz anyway), the loss of bass impact, for my listening preferences, needed to be addressed :(

I attenuated treble by 1.5 db and added a further attenuation of midrange drivers 1.5db with an L pad using non inductive resistors on the drivers rather than in the crossovers and then adjusted the amps output impedance to match cable/speaker. What works for you will depend on how well you know your system and how it performs in your listening environment.

Conventional wisdom has it the shorter the cable the better; doesn’t seem to work like that in my system where 1m length gave a better sound than a 0.4m. I can’t explain it any better than this; it seems that a shorter cable increased impact but reduced tone and it’s the tone I most enjoy with these :mental:

While I’m destroying my objectivist reputation I want to mention connectors :eyebrows:
Every cable I have measured has a marked difference in electrical characteristics between signal and ground. The only connectors I can think of that have attempted to address this problem are Eichman Bullit RCA connectors with apparently great success. Audiophiles seem to love large pieces of shiny metal and while they may look impressive I’m not convinced they are good for sonic performance.
I built a set of 1m cables (semi balanced) using a set of Nuetrik connectors which have a fairly minimal amount of metal and instead of using the supplied connector shroud/case I wound PTFE tape, first around the individual solder joints, and then around the whole internal body and finally slid a cable support ferule of a suitable diameter over the PTFE packed internals. While a bit fragile and far from pretty I prefer the sound of this cable over the others I made.
You may roll around laughing now if you wish :lol:

Imo good HiFi is about getting the components in the system to work together to produce a sound that is not only as accurate as possible, but more importantly, a sound is enjoyable to listen to. Every change I’ve made to my system seems to require a change elsewhere to maintain that balance and these cables were no exception :doh:

Unfortunately the speaker tweaks put a noticeable hump in bass response and aggravated the low frequency standing wave problem I get in the room.
I recently salvaged a few continental quilts that had been thrown out. My sofa is in direct line and approximately the same width as my speaker placement so I stuffed them into the base and back of the sofa with a layer of acoustic foam glued onto the back frame making a vertical absorption panel of sorts. This seems to have soaked up the worst of the hump (miked at 2.9m, my listening position) while not sucking the dynamics out.
That’s about as audiophile, informative and anal as I get on a forum. You don’t want to know what happens when I change a major component.

I prefer the Belkin cables to the Chord Crimson Plus set I have, the Atlas Equator I borrowed and all but my reference custom set which I’m still trying to decide upon but atm it sounds like the Belkin will stay.
My feeling is both these cables (even in their stock form) will easily outperform any coaxial style cable. Given they are less than £1.50 per foot it gets very hard to see how some cable manufacturers can justify charging £20+ per foot for some very basic configurations and materials :steam:

I look at it like this: you can establish the sound you like and strive through experimentation to get it, or, follow the herd and buy the stuff that others rave about and learn to like that.

I feel I should point out here that in no way do I take this audio business seriously ;)


(Now where did I put that lump hammer, just need to tweak the amp output caps a bit :eek: )

magiccarpetride
10-01-2011, 19:36
Ooooooer missus, I didn't realise such confusion could arise :scratch:

As far as I was aware the audio cables came in 2 variants, one was of a decent diameter covered in a white shroud and a cheaper variant with a smaller diameter covered in a grey shroud. Both are called RCA audio cables and I thought the "Silver Series" referred only to the white covered type, but it seems even that simple notion isn't quite correct :doh: I have 2 pairs of the white covered ones and none of the grey type.

This is simply beyond belief, but although I've ordered two pairs of these cables back in December 20, I still haven't received them. The vendor is not responding to my enquiries, so I'm thinking about pulling the plug on the order.

However, I'm dying to hear these cables, so I was wondering if some of you would be interested in selling yours to me (in case you have some spare, or have moved on to something better)?

anthonyTD
11-01-2011, 09:53
I was wondering how everyone else got on with these Belkin cables.
I bought 3 sets; one from Frank’s original link, silver series 1.2m AV, quad shielded.
The others I bought (Ali’s link) are the RCA Audio Silver Series (1.2m & 2.4m) double shielded, a full mylar foil and outer braid polyethylene dielectric and similar hybrid conductors.
They are not the same cables!

The two cables types sound different; annoying isn’t it :scratch:
I prefer the RCA audio cables (not AV) in my system. The quad shielded AV cables may suit the softer, faster and more coloured sound of a valve/analogue setup better.

I dissected a pair of the 2.4 RCA audio cables (I only want a 0.4m pairs, so it was going to happen anyway) and re-plugged one end. I’m not sure why, but I expected to find a semi balanced construction but these are completely unbalanced. I was wondering if the AV quad shielded were also unbalanced (AnthonyTD?) I don’t really want to hack these up.

I made two sets of cables from out of the 2.4 metre RCA set.
I used these connectors to replace one end for each pair I made.
http://www.thatcable.com/acatalog/info_2_rca_male_audio_connectors.html

I used solder with silver content on all joints. I made both sets 0.4 metres in length but one set semi balanced. The idea is that with the screen connected at source any RFI crap the shield picks up isn’t transferred to the amp and on to the speakers. Anyone else tried this and if so what do you think; any noticeable difference in sound? :doh:

hi John,
the cables i disected were the white pure AV series, they had a red and white pair inside with 4 or 5 individualy insulated cores one being a solid core the others being of the sprial or helics [spelling ?] wound type, the screen was made up of a foil and a very sparse brading which was only connected at the source end!
hope this helps.

Anthony,TD...

Welder
11-01-2011, 14:42
Hi AnthonyTD

Thanks for the info.

These cables are starting to annoy me. I dissected my white AV set and what I found seems to be slightly different to your description.
For a start my AV quad shielded set are fully balanced (I made an error in my description of the RCA grey set as these are also fully balanced)
The differences between the two sets (AV white, RCA grey) that I have are the extra shielding around the individual conductor pairs. The conductor arrangement is the same, 4 individually transparent coated spiral wires, one spiral pair coated, one larger diameter plain solid coated wire and one uncoated rectangular twisted strip but the braid outer shielding in the AV white set is much sparser than on the RCA grey set which has a very dense tinned copper braided shield. Both sets have the Mylar foil (?) shield.

Anyone want to try to give me a rational explanation as to why what amounts to just extra shielding on one set makes these cables sound different given the shielding on both sets would seem more than adequate to completely reject any RFI?

Just in case anyone else is thinking about messing about with these cables be warned, they are a total pin in the arse to work with :steam:

anthonyTD
11-01-2011, 18:40
I totaly agree about them being a pain in the arse to work with.:lol:
i cant recal there being a seperate foil screen on each of the red and white cores but i will recheck that and confirm, also inside each of the spiral wound cores is a strand of what looks to be some form of plastic or nylon, which is around the thickness of a human hair!

Anthony,TD...

magiccarpetride
14-01-2011, 17:56
This is simply beyond belief, but although I've ordered two pairs of these cables back in December 20, I still haven't received them. The vendor is not responding to my enquiries, so I'm thinking about pulling the plug on the order.

However, I'm dying to hear these cables, so I was wondering if some of you would be interested in selling yours to me (in case you have some spare, or have moved on to something better)?

I don't fcuking believe this! The cables finally arrived yesterday, but they delivered ONLY one pair! Where the hell is the other pair? No one seems to know, no one seems to care. It says clearly on my order that I've paid for two packages. Oh, the humanity!

So my question now is: should I even bother trying to listen to one pair only? If yes, should I install the interconnects between the DAC and the pre-amp, or would it be better to place them between the pre-amp and the power amp? Or does it even matter?

Please help, I'm getting very frustrated...

Reid Malenfant
14-01-2011, 18:11
Stuff the new cable between the DAC & pre amp ;) Garbage in - garbage out & all that, i guess it makes some kid of sense to use it on the front end :)

magiccarpetride
14-01-2011, 18:21
Stuff the new cable between the DAC & pre amp ;) Garbage in - garbage out & all that, i guess it makes some kid of sense to use it on the front end :)

Thanks Mark, makes sense to me as well. I'm just so disappointed to be forced to conduct this half-assed evaluation of these 'truly amazing' cables. Oh well...

Ali Tait
14-01-2011, 18:23
Try it in both places, going back to the original cables. See what, if any, difference there is.

The Grand Wazoo
14-01-2011, 18:24
Alex,
I deliberately only added one pair at a time, starting at the source end & working my way through the system. At every stage things got better.

MCRU
14-01-2011, 19:05
Is this 13 pages all about a £5 pair of interconnects guys? Wow.

Ali Tait
14-01-2011, 19:57
I have to say, they do sound pretty good, and they were only that price as they were outdated stock.

MCRU
14-01-2011, 19:58
I did get a set myself and plugged them in then had to take them back out whilst I moved things around and not listened since as I am in vinyl mode at the moment.

magiccarpetride
14-01-2011, 20:52
Is this 13 pages all about a £5 pair of interconnects guys? Wow.

Precisely. You'll never get a 13 pages worth of discussion about a pair of cables that retail for £5000. Why? Because no one gives a shit about those overhyped, overpriced wires.

Effem
14-01-2011, 20:55
Is this 13 pages all about a £5 pair of interconnects guys? Wow.

Too right it is all about a £5 pair of cables David, that's why the thread title is . . . . . . . "Truly amazed" :eyebrows:

If they were £100 there would be nowt to shout about :doh:

If they were £250 we would say "Are they worth £250?" :scratch:

If they were £500+ someone would be yelling "Snake oil alert!!!" :stalks:

MCRU
15-01-2011, 11:12
Too right it is all about a £5 pair of cables David, that's why the thread title is . . . . . . . "Truly amazed" :eyebrows:

If they were £100 there would be nowt to shout about :doh:

If they were £250 we would say "Are they worth £250?" :scratch:

If they were £500+ someone would be yelling "Snake oil alert!!!" :stalks:

yes you are exactly right mate, spot on.

magiccarpetride
16-01-2011, 07:15
Try it in both places, going back to the original cables. See what, if any, difference there is.

Hmmm, just tried it from the variable Caiman outs straight into the power amp. Couldn't hear any noticeable difference (???)

After that, tried from the fixed Caiman outs into the pre amp, and after level matching, fancied hearing just a tiny bit better bass. But definitely not blown away.

I must say I'm confused. I was expecting to be blown away by these interconnects. In both cases, I had to really strain to try and squeeze some differences, but in reality I wasn't hearing them.

I am usually very sensitive to any differences in sound (my friends sometimes even make fun of me for claiming to hear tiny differences between components), and most of the time the changes I make to my configuration are a reason for celebration. No cigar this time:(

I'll have to wait until I get the second pair of these cables before I make my final verdict on them.

Edit: some claim that these cables need 20 hours burn in time. I'll give them the world...

Welder
16-01-2011, 13:55
I think you may be missing the point here Alex :)
Interconnects shouldn’t and in my experience don’t give “blow you away” sonic differences.
The point about these interconnects is the performance they give at the price.
Nobody has written that these are the best interconnects you can buy and nobody has written anything about astounding improvements in sound.
How much did you pay for the interconnects you’re replacing with these?

magiccarpetride
17-01-2011, 16:55
I think you may be missing the point here Alex :)
Interconnects shouldn’t and in my experience don’t give “blow you away” sonic differences.
The point about these interconnects is the performance they give at the price.
Nobody has written that these are the best interconnects you can buy and nobody has written anything about astounding improvements in sound.
How much did you pay for the interconnects you’re replacing with these?

You're suggesting that the title of the thread -- "Truly amazed" relates to the low price, not to the amazing sound quality these cables offer?

That's not the impression I get when I read other people's description. There are many posts in this thread that extoll the sonic virtues of these interconnects. Barely anyone discusses the low price.

I don't know how much I paid for my old interconnects, as the dealer threw them in with the purchase of my separates.

Welder
17-01-2011, 17:11
From the man himself: ;)
“Too right it is all about a £5 pair of cables David, that's why the thread title is . . . . . . . "Truly amazed"

If they were £100 there would be nowt to shout about

If they were £250 we would say "Are they worth £250?"

If they were £500+ someone would be yelling "Snake oil alert!!!" ”

I can see you’re going to have problems with anything that isn’t “the best” and any mention of “value” is likely to prejudice your listening.
Perhaps you ought to re read the comments because what I understand from them and from my own experiences is you could pay a lot of money for something esoteric and expensive and not get the same performance……......


Oh never mind…………God help us when you get a serious upgrade or mod :doh:

Effem
17-01-2011, 17:13
You're suggesting that the title of the thread -- "Truly amazed" relates to the low price, not to the amazing sound quality these cables offer?

That's not the impression I get when I read other people's description. There are many posts in this thread that extoll the sonic virtues of these interconnects. Barely anyone discusses the low price.



I started this thread on the basis they were cheap AND sounded very good on two systems I have here, one solid state and the other valve.

I bought a single set out of curiosity based upon my findings with the Belkin PF30 and the results I obtained from that pair induced me to buy a second set without any hesitation and the two sets together in the chain yielded far better results than even I had anticipated.

Being the former owner of Krystal Kables I have had more cables through my hands than I could care to remember, some of which had some lofty price tags too I might add, so it completely took my breath away that these poverty budget wires could produce an almost ruler flat frequency scale that emphasised no element of the sound spectrum, inasmuch as they didn't have any bass or treble uplift or attenuation at all, or having a recessed midband as the overwhelming majority of cables tend to exhibit. At the same time giving increased top end detail and bottom end welly, which sounds like contradicting the previous sentence, but that is where the english language has it's own set of inadequacies.

magiccarpetride
17-01-2011, 20:54
I started this thread on the basis they were cheap AND sounded very good on two systems I have here, one solid state and the other valve.

I bought a single set out of curiosity based upon my findings with the Belkin PF30 and the results I obtained from that pair induced me to buy a second set without any hesitation and the two sets together in the chain yielded far better results than even I had anticipated.

Being the former owner of Krystal Kables I have had more cables through my hands than I could care to remember, some of which had some lofty price tags too I might add, so it completely took my breath away that these poverty budget wires could produce an almost ruler flat frequency scale that emphasised no element of the sound spectrum, inasmuch as they didn't have any bass or treble uplift or attenuation at all, or having a recessed midband as the overwhelming majority of cables tend to exhibit. At the same time giving increased top end detail and bottom end welly, which sounds like contradicting the previous sentence, but that is where the english language has it's own set of inadequacies.

True. And it is really amazing that such cheap cables manage to fit so nicely in a well balanced high end audio system. Like, if I had a very pricey pair of interconnects, and if after replacing them by these cheapo babies I couldn't detect any degradation in sound quality, I'd waste no time waiting to sell the pricey ones.

It is actually a good thing that I wasn't able to hear any difference once I replaced my old interconnects with these. But I was hoping (naively, as it seems), that I'd be getting some improvements. There's no free lunch, sadly.

Two things remain to be seen, though:

1. The burn in for the Belkin RCA (I'm now sitting at approximately 10 hours, waiting to make the 20 hour mark)

2. I'm still waiting on the other pair to arrive (the one needed for connecting my pre amp to the power amp)

Once these 2 things happen (and after a proper burn in for the second pair), I'll be in the position to give a more level-headed feedback.

magiccarpetride
18-01-2011, 18:59
I started this thread on the basis they were cheap AND sounded very good on two systems I have here, one solid state and the other valve.

I bought a single set out of curiosity based upon my findings with the Belkin PF30 and the results I obtained from that pair induced me to buy a second set without any hesitation and the two sets together in the chain yielded far better results than even I had anticipated.

Being the former owner of Krystal Kables I have had more cables through my hands than I could care to remember, some of which had some lofty price tags too I might add, so it completely took my breath away that these poverty budget wires could produce an almost ruler flat frequency scale that emphasised no element of the sound spectrum, inasmuch as they didn't have any bass or treble uplift or attenuation at all, or having a recessed midband as the overwhelming majority of cables tend to exhibit. At the same time giving increased top end detail and bottom end welly, which sounds like contradicting the previous sentence, but that is where the english language has it's own set of inadequacies.

Another thing I forgot to mention is the directionality of these cables. I see that on one end they have an arrow pointing away from the plug, while on the other end they have an arrow pointing towards the plug. I'm assuming that I should plug the away pointing arrow into the analog out (from the Caiman), and the toward pointing arrow into the analog in (into the pre amp). Correct?

Does the directionality affect the sound quality? If I were to plug it incorrectly, would it sound worse?

And btw, what's the theory behind directionality? How does it work?

I've tried to take a snapshot last night, but I have such a snake nest mess of coiled cables that it didn't turn out that well. Here it is, anyways:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7438755/Belkin%20interconnects.jpg

Jonboy
18-01-2011, 19:23
some cables are direction marked some are not, perhaps this is the way they may have been pre burnt in or the maker intended them to be run that way, just try swapping them around and see if YOU hear any difference, then YOU will find YOUR answer.

Effem
18-01-2011, 19:26
Directionality of cables is the biggest non-event ever.

The reason is perfectly simple; music is an alternating current so electrons pass BACK AND FORTH along the cable, hence it changes "direction" many thousands of times per second :eyebrows:

It was theorised way back in the 80's that a reviewer could allegedly hear a difference between the cable being plugged in one way or the other and never had any basis in fact, despite claims of the way the metal is drawn through the die during manufacture having an effect, or there was some mysterious "diode effect" going on within the wire.

I have all my cables going every which way in my system and couldn't give a toss about "directionality" ;)

Welder
18-01-2011, 19:31
It looks to me from your pic Alex that you have the Dual RCA audio cables rather than the AV cables.

If this is right they are fully balanced and it doesn't matter which way round the arrows go.
If on the other hand you do have the White AV cables then apprently according to AnthonyTD these are semi balanced (shield not connected at one end)
Ideally with semi balanced cables the end where the shield is attatched to the plug should go to source. If you read the other posts on these cables properly its been explained.

Barry
19-01-2011, 00:11
Directionality of cables is the biggest non-event ever.

The reason is perfectly simple; music is an alternating current so electrons pass BACK AND FORTH along the cable, hence it changes "direction" many thousands of times per second :eyebrows:

It was theorised way back in the 80's that a reviewer could allegedly hear a difference between the cable being plugged in one way or the other and never had any basis in fact, despite claims of the way the metal is drawn through the die during manufacture having an effect, or there was some mysterious "diode effect" going on within the wire.

I have all my cables going every which way in my system and couldn't give a toss about "directionality" ;)

+1 , assuming they are symmetric.

Directionality might only matter with 'directional' cables, that is cables that have an asymmetric construction. An example would be the so-called semi-balanced cable, where the screening is connected to the outer conductor of the RCA connector at one end only. Ideally, this should be at the point of lowest electrical potential (usually the source, but not always).

Regards

Marco
19-01-2011, 05:35
Hi Frank,


Directionality of cables is the biggest non-event ever.

The reason is perfectly simple; music is an alternating current so electrons pass BACK AND FORTH along the cable, hence it changes "direction" many thousands of times per second :eyebrows:

It was theorised way back in the 80's that a reviewer could allegedly hear a difference between the cable being plugged in one way or the other and never had any basis in fact, despite claims of the way the metal is drawn through the die during manufacture having an effect, or there was some mysterious "diode effect" going on within the wire.

I have all my cables going every which way in my system and couldn't give a toss about "directionality" ;)

Fairy muffs... I can't dispute what you're saying, but I'm afraid that it's completely contrary to my own experience. With almost every cable I've owned, when connected to equipment, there has always been one way that has sounded significantly better than the other, my current Mark Grants included.

Don't ask me why, but I can clearly hear the difference - and I'm not someone who's prone to imagining things... :)

Marco.

Ammonite Audio
19-01-2011, 07:15
Some years ago I bought some Kimber PBJ cable off the reel from the other side of the Atlantic. RA always puts direction markers on the same cable, which is sensible to ensure that each piece is used the same way, but these had nothing so I asked Kimber about directionality. Back came the straightforward reply that the cable is not directional as such, but "becomes" directional after about 2 weeks of use, and if turned around, will take another 2 weeks to become directional in the other direction. So direction does matter, but not for long. I hope that makes sense.

Effem
19-01-2011, 08:18
Back came the straightforward reply that the cable is not directional as such, but "becomes" directional after about 2 weeks of use, and if turned around, will take another 2 weeks to become directional in the other direction. So direction does matter, but not for long. I hope that makes sense.

It could also make sense that pulling the plugs out and reconnecting them removes tarnish and creates a clean contact ;)

I am still having trouble qualifying Kimber's statement that it takes two weeks to "become directional" because how do they test that hypothesis? The second they yank the plug out, the build-up of directionality suddenly vanishes :scratch:

Ammonite Audio
19-01-2011, 09:33
Sure, pulling plugs out does have an effect; also dressing cables in a different way around the rack, but in the latter case I'm buggered if I can explain why that can have such a profound effect on listening satisfaction.

Kimber's point is probably the same phenomenon as new solder joints taking a while to sound "right", which is something that I have most definitely noticed for myself. Surely you have too, Frank? That aside, I don't particularly care about the issue, but was happy that as long as I used the Kimber cables the same way round, they'd be delivering the best performance, thus allowing me to forget about cables, directionality etc.


I am still having trouble qualifying Kimber's statement that it takes two weeks to "become directional" because how do they test that hypothesis? The second they yank the plug out, the build-up of directionality suddenly vanishes

Maybe you have misunderstood what I meant by Kimber's remarks. They are not suggesting that the directional effect, built up over two weeks of use, evaporates as soon as the cables are disconnected; and it is somewhat mischievous to imply that. They said that the directional effect is permanent until the cables are used in reverse, in which case the cables will settle down and become directional, the other way round, as it were. As for Kimber's "hypothesis", I do like to think that they know a thing or two about metallurgy, cable construction etc. Maybe they listen to their products too!

Welder
19-01-2011, 10:12
I think we need to be a bit careful here when talking about directionality of cables.
Some most definitely are and measurably so. Not all cables are built with the same wire and screen configuration.

Plain wire interconnects DNM Reson for example.
Two equally spaced conductors, one signal wire and one ground wire both connected at plug. Directionality shouldn’t be an issue with this type.

Coax style cables.
These have a centre conductor for signal and often use the shield for ground. Signal and ground (Shield) connected at both ends.
A lot is going to depend on how the RCA sockets are connected at each end and the connected components ability to filter out noise. But, I would be surprised if directionality was an issue.
My feeling with this type of cable is due to the ground/screen conductor having a much larger surface area than the signal conductor wire any RF noise the cable picks up, (that’s what the screen is for, it stops RF reaching the signal/centre conductor) may be introduced into the system; probably not an issue for balanced input/output components if balanced input has a transformer.

Separate signal conductors (one signal hot and one ground cold) plus screen.
These tend to come in three configurations.

Unbalanced.
Signal and ground conductors connected at both ends, screen not connected to plugs at either end.
I can’t see why these should be directional.

Semi Balanced.
Signal and ground conductors connected at both ends and screen connected at one end only.
These most definitely are directional. Whether the directionality is audible is another matter.
Any noise the screen picks up is grounded at one end of the cable. It is generally accepted that it is preferable to return any noise the screen picks up to source and ground it there, rather than sending it on to the receiving component and ground it there.
Once again a lot is going to depend on the input and output configuration of the relevant components.

Fully balanced.
These have signal and ground and shield connected to the plug at both ends; the shield is connected to the ground at both ends. This is the Pro audio favorite.

Its quite interesting to have a look inside the component enclosures and see how the ground is connected. Very few domestic Hi Fi components I’ve seen are fully balanced and even fewer are balanced and even fewer have a transformer (no physical connection from one side to the other) balancing stage.

One method of grounding shield I’ve used is to run the shield to ground using a long lead to my power condition box earth. In theory all noise picked up by the shield doesn’t enter the signal path in any of the components but you really need to do this with every shielded cable and equipment chassis earth. If its not done right you may get ground loop hum.

Effem
19-01-2011, 10:43
Kimber's point is probably the same phenomenon as new solder joints taking a while to sound "right", which is something that I have most definitely noticed for myself. Surely you have too, Frank? That aside, I don't particularly care about the issue, but was happy that as long as I used the Kimber cables the same way round, they'd be delivering the best performance, thus allowing me to forget about cables, directionality etc.

There is no doubt in my mind that things like burn in do occur with any new cable. Even more surprising is if you leave a cable in a drawer unconnected for any length of time, you have to start the burn in process all over again. I have a mains lead here that sounds dreadful for the first few minutes of being connected up after not being used and gradually improves over a few hours.



Maybe you have misunderstood what I meant by Kimber's remarks. They are not suggesting that the directional effect, built up over two weeks of use, evaporates as soon as the cables are disconnected; and it is somewhat mischievous to imply that. They said that the directional effect is permanent until the cables are used in reverse, in which case the cables will settle down and become directional, the other way round, as it were. As for Kimber's "hypothesis", I do like to think that they know a thing or two about metallurgy, cable construction etc. Maybe they listen to their products too!

I knew my comments would be misconstrued as I was typing them :) It's the nature of that AC signal current flow back and forth through the cable that still leaves a big nagging doubt in my mind about directionality properties.

Now if we were talking about a DC current flow from one component to another then I wouldn't be quite as sceptical about the directionality issue. Part of that problem too is I have not heard the "directionality effect" despite the large number of dealings I have had within the cable business, that others say they have heard and perhaps if I did, my stance would of course be rather different.

magiccarpetride
19-01-2011, 19:58
I started this thread on the basis they were cheap AND sounded very good on two systems I have here, one solid state and the other valve.

I bought a single set out of curiosity based upon my findings with the Belkin PF30 and the results I obtained from that pair induced me to buy a second set without any hesitation and the two sets together in the chain yielded far better results than even I had anticipated.

Being the former owner of Krystal Kables I have had more cables through my hands than I could care to remember, some of which had some lofty price tags too I might add, so it completely took my breath away that these poverty budget wires could produce an almost ruler flat frequency scale that emphasised no element of the sound spectrum, inasmuch as they didn't have any bass or treble uplift or attenuation at all, or having a recessed midband as the overwhelming majority of cables tend to exhibit. At the same time giving increased top end detail and bottom end welly, which sounds like contradicting the previous sentence, but that is where the english language has it's own set of inadequacies.

Well I'll be damned! Last night, sat down for a listen, and hey! -- I thought that everything sounded even better than usual.

Could it be that the Belkin had finally burned in? I haven't made any other changes since I've installed the Belkin interconnects. I honestly thought I was hearing MORE (and this sorta coincides with hitting the 20 hour burn in milestone for this cable).

Now I can't wait to get my hands on another pair of these (still sitting somewhere in the USPS purgatory), to connect them from the pre amp into the power amp.

Effem
19-01-2011, 20:52
Well I'll be damned! Last night, sat down for a listen, and hey! -- I thought that everything sounded even better than usual.

Could it be that the Belkin had finally burned in? I haven't made any other changes since I've installed the Belkin interconnects. I honestly thought I was hearing MORE (and this sorta coincides with hitting the 20 hour burn in milestone for this cable).

Now I can't wait to get my hands on another pair of these (still sitting somewhere in the USPS purgatory), to connect them from the pre amp into the power amp.

It could be that you put your expectations away for a moment :) My best tip with any hi-fi purchase is to unpack it, plug it in to make sure it works OK then switch off and leave it alone, then actually listen to it a good few hours later - next day is even better if you have the patience. I have to go through this process tomorrow in fact when hopefully my new toy arrives :eyebrows:

All that excitement of the doorbell ringing, grabbing the box from the courier, signing the docket, then ripping all the packaging open and shoving it into the rack, all plays havoc with your adrenaline and stress levels, so you can easily make incorrect snap judgements about new components. This is the very same reason why blind ABX tests are doomed to fail once the word "test" is mentioned and/or having a strange environment to cope with as well stuffs it right from the outset.

MartinT
19-01-2011, 21:33
Back came the straightforward reply that the cable is not directional as such, but "becomes" directional after about 2 weeks of use, and if turned around, will take another 2 weeks to become directional in the other direction. So direction does matter, but not for long. I hope that makes sense.

Somewhere in Russ Andrew's documentation, he said the same thing. It may have been one of his useful system guides.

If you don't believe in cable directionality, try reversing just one channel. :eek:

The Grand Wazoo
22-01-2011, 01:10
Just as an aside to all this technical banter, if anyone is interested in finding out what the fuss is all about, there may be an opportunity for you to get some of the cables that started all of this off here:

http://www.bigoffers.co.uk

......as far as I can understand, the one in the original post are double shielded, all copper with silver solder:
4.9 metre pair for a fiver:
http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.php?product=BELKIN-01618&cat=119&sub=&cat_title=Coming+Soon&prod_title=Belkin+Pure+AV+Silver+Series+(AV50300QP 08)...

2.4m pair for three quid:
http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.php?product=BELKIN-01621&cat=119&sub=&cat_title=Coming+Soon&prod_title=Belkin+Silver+Series+PureAV+Dual+Audio+ Cable+RCA...



There are also these:
http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.php?product=BELKIN-01618&cat=119&sub=&cat_title=Coming+Soon&prod_title=Belkin+Pure+AV+Silver+Series+(AV50300QP 08)...

And these:
http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.php?product=BELKIN-01621&cat=119&sub=&cat_title=Coming+Soon&prod_title=Belkin+Silver+Series+PureAV+Dual+Audio+ Cable+RCA...

For all the above, it's £4.99 maximum p+p charge for whatever you buy from the site - up to a pallet load!!!!

Alex_UK
22-01-2011, 08:50
Just as an aside to all this technical banter, if anyone is interested in finding out what the fuss is all about, there may be an opportunity for you to get some of the cables that started all of this off here:

Curses, you pesky lumberjack, I'd have been alright if it wasn't for you and your tempting links... pair of each duly ordered, (plus a "tadpole" mobile phone thingy (http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.php?product=HOMEWEA-01120&cat=1&sub=&cat_title=Pound+Shop&prod_title=Tadpole+Call+Sensor+-+Orange...) which I couldn't resist for a quid - passed on the Ear Pick Earwax Remover (http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.php?product=GADGET-01093&cat=1&sub=&cat_title=Two+Pound+Shop&prod_title=Ear+Pick+Wax+Remover+Curette+Earpick+Gr een+with+...) though - yeuch! - some others might find it useful though - could be the next big upgrade!) Theres some great Belkin computer cables on there too, firewire etc.

Looks like Dave DSJR was right after all, in that he knew I'd cave in, but I did pretty well at holding out for nearly 2 months I think!

The Grand Wazoo
22-01-2011, 09:34
Ha! I knew I'd getchyer Alex.
There's all sorts of stuff on that site - take a look at the Boffer (http://www.boffer.co.uk/)sister site where they reveal a new much reduced bargain with limited availability at 11:59 pm every night. could be a laptop or it could be a covert recording device cunningly concealed in what looks like a lipstick!

Also appealing to my bargain sniffing proclivities is the thing they called the 'Bag of Crap' but has now changed into the 'Sack of Crap' - One minute to midnight on an unspecified day close to Chrimbo, they unleash the sack of crap offer which is 50 items. Here's what you get for a fiver postage:

"The rules of the sack of crap are as follows.

1) You expect nothing more than 25 crappy items.

2) You should not whine and complain when some people`s crap turns out to be less crappier.

3) You should take a moment to consider whether you might be better off just not buying this crap.

We make absolutely no promises about the quality or the desirability of these bags or their contents, except to promise that their quality will be low and their desirability will be non-existent. We will take your hard earned cash and send you literal crap in return.

Your sack will contain at least 25 items.

At least one of the 25 items you will receive will count as the sack so in other words one of the items you will receive will be a sack or bag of some description. It may be a laptop bag, a school bag, a blow up beach bag, my Alexander Mcqueen handbag .If you are really unlucky you may get a pack of bin bags or a colostomy and they will count as your sack!!"

People have posted videos of them opening their sack - there's usually something pretty valuable in there -and the lucky one or two get something like an ipod, computer monitor or something like that.
The address of the website is:

http://www.crapshop.co.uk



Enjoy playing with your cables Alex

keiths
22-01-2011, 11:05
The address of the website is:

http://www.crapshop.co.uk

Proprietor one Reginald Iolanthe Perrin I presume ?



Sent from my HTC Tattoo using Tapatalk

Stratmangler
22-01-2011, 19:20
passed on the Ear Pick Earwax Remover (http://www.bigoffers.co.uk/product.php?product=GADGET-01093&cat=1&sub=&cat_title=Two+Pound+Shop&prod_title=Ear+Pick+Wax+Remover+Curette+Earpick+Gr een+with+...) though - yeuch! - some others might find it useful though - could be the next big upgrade!)

This device is quite alarming - you shouldn't attempt to put anything smaller than your elbow into your ear canal:eek:

synsei
22-01-2011, 21:45
Righto fellas, I've had a 2m pair of these Belkin cables(same as Alex MCR's) sitting around at home doing sod all for about 5 months now. I bought 'em from eBay simply due to the description: "Double shielded, Silver soldered, balanced cable construction etc, etc", they looked rather good too, and for £2.99 for 2x2m lengths I thought, "Why the hell not".

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/15mCRC07Interconnects.jpg

After stumbling over this thread tonight I whipped out the cables above which cost £11.99 from Gear City in Hong Kong and are no mean performers in their own right, and slotted the Belkin's in between my Pre/Power amps.

I began with an excellent lossless recording of ELO's Discovery played via VLC player on my netbook which is connected to my Caiman via an excellent quality Belkin shielded USB lead with gold plated connectors. First impressions are mixed: Clarity and definition throughout the frequency range is excellent. As noted in an earlier post, drum skins in particular took on an almost ethereal quality, as if the drummer was sitting in the room with me. Depth and breadth of the soundstage is staggering and can only be put down to the Belkin leads. The theory as to how cables can make such a difference is beyond me, but these Belkin's certainly do. As commented previously, I've lost a little bass weight, but it is so much more tuneful.

I then moved on to the Happy Feet OST (don't laugh, it's a terrific production and a fun listen too, hehe), which is also a lossless recording (wav). This fared much better. There is some excellent percussion recorded on this album and it was delivered with amazing clarity and impact. Both Mrs 'S' and myself were tapping away with our (webbed?) feet to every beat. I'm currently listening to Aerial by Kate Bush. This is a 320kbs mpeg file and it too is sounding new and improved, although not to such an extent as the two lossless recordings. I'm sure this isn't down to the Belkins though. It's probably due to the difference in quality between the two formats.

I should qualify these comments by saying I have only been running these IC's for about 3hrs so I am fully expecting further improvements over the next 16 to 17 hours. I have another 2 pairs on order from a seller on the 'Bay so I will offer further insights once they have arrived and been installed in my system... ;)

Alex_UK
25-01-2011, 14:52
Curses, you pesky lumberjack, I'd have been alright if it wasn't for you and your tempting links... pair of each duly ordered

Well, cables arrived today. One was in a proper Retail pack, and is the 2.4m (8ft) one, but there is no mention of them being "silver" series or any reference to silver soldering or anything on the pack. The cables are grey in colour, with a kind of "net" covering - exactly the same as Alex's (Magiccarpetride) photo.

The second cable just came in a polythene bag, and was supposed to be the 4.9m pair, but in actual fact they are exactly the same length as the 2.4m pair... which is slightly annoying as I didn't really want either 2.4m pair, although I wanted to have a play, and the 4.9m one was going to replace a crappy cable from TV to stereo and so needed to be that long... Oh, and the tadpole "mobile phone alert thingy" doesn't work, either! Can't be bothered faffing around complaining (in any case I hadn't realised how bloody thick these cables are - running one from TV to amp and still maintaining some domestic aesthetic isn't going to happen!)

So, not overly impresses with bigoffers, but then I suppose there's no such thing as a free lunch, and 2 x decent quality 2.4m interconnects for less than £15 delivered isn't to be sniffed at, I guess. Not sure I can be bothered to pull the system apart to try them, so I might stick them in the second system which is easier to mess around with, or wait until we have the wood floor fitted and I have to take it all apart then.

Effem
25-01-2011, 15:45
Well, cables arrived today. One was in a proper Retail pack, and is the 2.4m (8ft) one, but there is no mention of them being "silver" series or any reference to silver soldering or anything on the pack. The cables are grey in colour, with a kind of "net" covering - exactly the same as Alex's (Magiccarpetride) photo.



They differ from the cables I have here :(

Mine are covered in a WHITE "net" and have WHITE mouldings on all the plugs :scratch:

I did say there are TWO variants of this interconnect; The grey one I believe is a plain RCA audio interconnect and the "Silver Series" has the white shroud with white plugs. Mind you, it also seems all the latest "Silver Series" interconnects have grey mouldings on the plugs, so I am confused as heck now :scratch:

Welder
25-01-2011, 16:07
Are you sure you lot are allowed out shopping without mums :lolsign:

If you look at the cables; either type, what the cables are is written on the jacket (that’s the bit under the anti scuff mesh) :doh:

Effem
25-01-2011, 19:19
Are you sure you lot are allowed out shopping without mums :lolsign:

If you look at the cables; either type, what the cables are is written on the jacket (that’s the bit under the anti scuff mesh) :doh:

I have looked and then looked some more, but I am donald ducked if I can see any markings under the braid :confused:

Reid Malenfant
25-01-2011, 19:50
Just remember, white is right :eyebrows:

Jac Hawk
05-02-2011, 14:24
ok guys these cables are back on ebay again but from a different seller, i ordered a set, they arrived the next day in a sealed plastic display box, they are light gey in colour, and have a mesh covering each cable, after reading the blurb on the back of the box i notice they are silver soldered here's the link http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BELKIN-Pure-AV-2-4m-GOLD-PLATED-Dual-RCA-Audio-Cable-/350314108554?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item519059168a

Barry
05-02-2011, 17:26
Sod it! I just can't stand it any more: 16 pages and 160 posts concerning a £4 pair of inteconnects? I have just bought a pair to see what all the fuss is about.

Regards (your's, a cable sceptic)

Reid Malenfant
05-02-2011, 18:45
Wrong type Barry, the OP Frank was on about the white cables with white plastic sleeving & silver soldered. It appears that they are not all the same, someone took some apart & discovered this ;)

The type you are looking for if interested in getting the same as the OP is:- AD80300qn2M

keiths
05-02-2011, 19:04
The type you are looking for if interested in getting the same as the OP is:- AD80300qn2M

The last two characters of the product code is the length, so could also end 1M or 5M

Reid Malenfant
05-02-2011, 19:05
The last two characters of the product code is the length, so could also end 1M or 5M
Agreed, i should have mentioned that ;)

Barry
05-02-2011, 21:32
Wrong type Barry, the OP Frank was on about the white cables with white plastic sleeving & silver soldered. It appears that they are not all the same, someone took some apart & discovered this ;)

The type you are looking for if interested in getting the same as the OP is:- AD80300qn2M

Frank’s cables were advertised as the ‘Belkin Pure AV Silver Series Super premium Audio Dual RCA cable’, type AD80300qn2M and claim the following:

“PureAV Silver Series RCA Audio Cables give you exceptional clarity and a more natural-sounding midrange using superior-grade materials and advanced technologies.”

Their features are (with spelling corrected):

· Drastically reduces signal distortion for unrivalled audio clarity using 99.9997% oxygen-free, PCOCC conductors and high-purity, silver solder joints
· Optimizes performance at all frequencies for consistent, exact sound reproduction using hybrid-conductor technology
· Maintains stronger signals that yield superior sonic accuracy with precision-formulated, polyethylene dielectric material
· Isolates from outside noise for superior clarity through double-shielded construction
· Protects against wire damage for consistently high-quality audio with integrated strain relief
· Creates precise contact for low loss with split-tip, centre-pin, and 8-cut, 24k gold-plated connectors
· Provides comfort and ease of install with non-slip rubber grip and integrated colour-coding


And here is the description of the cables I’ve bought: the ‘Belkin “Silver Series Pure AV Dual Audio cables’, type AV50300ea08 (again with spelling corrected): -

“Pure AV Silver Series RCA Audio Cables give you exceptional clarity and a more natural-sounding midrange using superior-grade materials and advanced technologies.”

These cables feature:

· Drastically reduces signal distortion for unrivalled audio clarity using 99.9997% oxygen-free, PCOCC conductors and high-purity, silver solder joints
· Optimizes performance at all frequencies for consistent, exact sound reproduction using hybrid-conductor technology
· Maintains stronger signals that yield superior sonic accuracy with precision-formulated, polyethylene dielectric material
· Isolates from outside noise for superior clarity through double-shielded construction
· Protects against wire damage for consistently high-quality audio with integrated strain relief
· Creates precise contact for low loss with split-tip, centre-pin, and 8-cut, 24k gold-plated connectors
· Provides comfort and ease of install with non-slip rubber grip and integrated colour-coding

Spot the difference? The important parts are the quality of the conductors and of the soldering to the connectors, and the type and quality of the dielectric insulation. I don’t think the colour of the external sheath or anti-abrasion webbing will make any difference.

Anyway we shall see.

Regards

Reid Malenfant
05-02-2011, 21:33
Hi Barry, the internal construction may well be different though chap ;)

Barry
05-02-2011, 21:44
Hi Barry, the internal construction may well be different though chap ;)

Yet the wording describing the construction is identical.

Are the covers of the phono plugs easy to remove so as to inspect the internal assembly? If one is a true coaxial and the other 'semi-balanced', there might be a difference.

You measure the capacitance/unit length for your 'white' cables and I'll do the same for my 'grey ones'. Also do the same for the resistance/unit length for both the inner and outer conductors (to a resolution and accuracy of a mOhm). We'll compare notes.

Regards

Reid Malenfant
05-02-2011, 21:48
Yet the wording describing the construction is identical.

Are the covers of the phono plugs easy to remove so as to inspect the internal assembly? If one is a true coaxial and the other 'semi-balanced', there might be a difference.
From what someone posted on here that is indeed the case. The white beasties are also quadruple shielded if i remember correctly. I don't think you'll be able to remove the covers without destroying the things :rolleyes:

The rest i can do without a problem :)

MCRU
05-02-2011, 22:06
Yet the wording describing the construction is identical.

Are the covers of the phono plugs easy to remove so as to inspect the internal assembly? If one is a true coaxial and the other 'semi-balanced', there might be a difference.

You measure the capacitance/unit length for your 'white' cables and I'll do the same for my 'grey ones'. Also do the same for the resistance/unit length for both the inner and outer conductors (to a resolution and accuracy of a mOhm). We'll compare notes.

Regards

you are gonna do all that for a £4 pair of interconnects, :)

MCRU
05-02-2011, 22:06
Has anyone asked anyone why they are so cheap?

Reid Malenfant
05-02-2011, 22:08
Has anyone asked anyone why they are so cheap?
Who gives a monkees if they do a good job :eyebrows:

Ali Tait
05-02-2011, 22:09
Stock that was sold off I guess, much like the PF30's. I have several pairs, and actually prefer them to my MG's.

MCRU
05-02-2011, 22:13
Cannot see how these and the PF30 and 40's can be sold so cheap and be profitable, after all why would anyone sell something at less than cost, unless belkin are going blob and getting rid of stocks? The PF30 cannot possibly be manufactured for £25

My white ones were used for a while but are back in the box now, must get time to do a proper listening session with them.

Are there any white ones left then?

Barry
05-02-2011, 22:26
you are gonna do all that for a £4 pair of interconnects, :)

Yes why not? I have the gear to do it.

I don't believe cables have an intrinsic sound of their own, rather it is probably due to how the cables interact with the items between which they connect. In that respect it is the intrinsic properties such as capacitance per unit length and possibly their loop resistance that is important.

I shall of course listen to them and will compare them with cables I made myself.

Reid Malenfant
05-02-2011, 22:29
I have several pairs, and actually prefer them to my MG's.
That is the first time i have actually seen someone say that! It has been inferred by another member though on a couple of occasions :)

The Grand Wazoo
05-02-2011, 22:43
I've completely re-plumbed my system front to back with them (except for tonearm & mains cabling) & am very, very happy indeed.

Reid Malenfant
05-02-2011, 22:52
I've completely re-plumbed my system front to back with them (except for tonearm & mains cabling) & am very, very happy indeed.
& strangely that is precisely the impression i kept getting Chris :) Nice to see another one back it up.

I'll be honest, i haven't tried them yet as i was going to use them in other systems & I run mainly balanced this way on the main one, perhaps they ought to be tried in place of my homemade single ended stuff where i do use it :eyebrows:

I reckon yes, mad not to at least try the stuff :cool:

Ali Tait
05-02-2011, 23:21
I've completely re-plumbed my system front to back with them (except for tonearm & mains cabling) & am very, very happy indeed.

Yep, me too!

Barry
05-02-2011, 23:23
Must admit I'm becoming excited about hearing mine, though I expect they will make my system a bit 'grey sounding'! :eyebrows:

Regards

MCRU
05-02-2011, 23:37
I am using these at the moment and they are very good for me anyway, pays your money and takes your choice................
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/BONI/IMG_2834.jpg

Ali Tait
05-02-2011, 23:47
That is the first time i have actually seen someone say that! It has been inferred by another member though on a couple of occasions :)

I speak as I find mate. I always have. :)

Welder
05-02-2011, 23:56
Made 5 sets now; 2 sets from the quad shielded and 3 from the AV RCA twin shield and I think they’re amazing. I just wish they weren’t such a pain in the arse to work with. You have to be really careful stripping the plastic coating off the individual conductors :(

Ali Tait
06-02-2011, 00:33
I have some Eichmann bullet plugs. Might try them on one of the sets to see if I can hear any difference.

WAD62
06-02-2011, 12:21
I have some Eichmann bullet plugs. Might try them on one of the sets to see if I can hear any difference.

Stupid question time...are you guys chopping these cables up or using them as standard?

At 2.4m they're a bit long to be ideal aren't they (I have bought a set by the way at £5 it's worth a punt) ;)

Ali Tait
06-02-2011, 12:43
All as standard at the moment, though as I said, I may try the Eichmanns on one pair to see if there is any improvement.

The Grand Wazoo
06-02-2011, 12:48
I'm sticking with the plugs as they come.

WAD62
06-02-2011, 12:53
How hard is it to put new plugs on, at 2.4M I could make 5 sets!!! ;)

The Grand Wazoo
06-02-2011, 13:14
Pretty tricky, by all accounts. Read Anthony's experiences way back up there.

Maximum
06-02-2011, 13:36
I thought you guys might be interested in a deal I found yesterday at Microdirect in Manchester, although looking on the site it looks available online too.

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Home/Product/50228/Belkin-Digital-Coaxial-Audio-Cable-3-6m

Not sure how good these are, they look like the blue series but for £1 they seem pretty good.

Ali Tait
06-02-2011, 13:53
Worth a punt at that price.

Jac Hawk
06-02-2011, 15:39
Wrong type Barry, the OP Frank was on about the white cables with white plastic sleeving & silver soldered. It appears that they are not all the same, someone took some apart & discovered this ;)

The type you are looking for if interested in getting the same as the OP is:- AD80300qn2M

Sorry mate ther ARE the same cables the blurb on the back of the pack says "99.9997% pcocc conductors anh high purity silver solder joints drastically reduce signal distortion for unrivalled audio clarity" i think they have just been playing with the cosmetics, it actually says as well that they are "Pure A/V Silver series interconnectors"

Barry
06-02-2011, 15:42
Sorry mate they ARE the same cables the blurb on the back of the pack says "99.9997% pcocc conductors and high purity silver solder joints drastically reduce signal distortion for unrivalled audio clarity" i think they have just been playing with the cosmetics, it actually says as well that they are "Pure A/V Silver series interconnectors"

:lol: See my post (#165) :)

Regards

Reid Malenfant
06-02-2011, 15:43
Mike, Anthony has taken apart both the White & Grey cables ;) Anthony says they are different, as far as i know the White cables are quadruple screened & the Grey cables are double screened :) The White cables are semi balanced, meaning they are directional where as the Grey cables are just standard coaxial...

Therefore they are not the same ;)

Jac Hawk
06-02-2011, 15:50
Mike, Anthony has taken apart both the White & Grey cables ;) Anthony says they are different, as far as i know the White cables are quadruple screened & the Grey cables are double screened :) The White cables are semi balanced, meaning they are directional where as the Grey cables are just standard coaxial...

Therefore they are not the same ;)

Strange then, why do my cables have direction arrows on them if they're not directional :scratch:

WAD62
06-02-2011, 15:54
Pretty tricky, by all accounts. Read Anthony's experiences way back up there.

Ah...in which case I have single 2.4 M cable, oh well we'll see how it sounds anyway. ;)

Reid Malenfant
06-02-2011, 16:04
Strange then, why do my cables have direction arrows on them if they're not directional :scratch:
I bought a load of twin core screened cable from Maplin to make a load of balanced interconnects, this cable also has directional arrows on it & yet it doesn't even have connectors :D

Make your own mind up :eyebrows:

Welder
06-02-2011, 16:24
"Mike, Anthony has taken apart both the White & Grey cables Anthony says they are different, as far as i know the White cables are quadruple screened & the Grey cables are double screened The White cables are semi balanced, meaning they are directional where as the Grey cables are just standard coaxial..."

Nope, wrong, try again ;)
Ffs, how can this be so difficult.
1) every Belkin cable I've come accross has the cable details written on the jacket.
2)I've taken both types to bits and they are differnt but niether is coaxial.
3)Everything you could possibly want to know about these cables has been written in earlier posts.

Reid Malenfant
06-02-2011, 16:27
Look John, have you considered the possibility that there are more than one type of grey cable?

Nope, i see not :doh:

Welder
06-02-2011, 16:30
Yep, but not under the links originally posted.
See 1) ;)

Reid Malenfant
06-02-2011, 16:38
Is your name Anthony? I didn't think so :lol:

It doesn't matter to an extent what you found John, as i say another forum member took a pair to bits & found different things to what you did on your grey cable - that's what i said earlier :cool:

Welder
06-02-2011, 16:43
I’ve had both the quad shielded and the twin shielded to bits Mark.
What the f**k had AnthonyTD got to do with it?

Reid Malenfant
06-02-2011, 16:44
He's had some to bits as well as far as i know & found differences to what you are describing - simples :)

Calm down dear :eyebrows:

Jac Hawk
06-02-2011, 16:44
Anyway if there's a difference i will never hear it cos it doesn't look like these mystical white coaxial cables are available any longer, on a lighter not there is a guy on ebay trying to auction off a load of the 2.4m grey variant, his problem is that he has set delivery at £6.99 so no one is bidding, which is my good fortune cos he lives just down the road, so lets see if i can get a few more sets but this time at only 99p

Welder
06-02-2011, 16:53
No mate, it’s not “simples”.
I am cool, but then again, I know what I’m talking about.
The implication from your earlier post is I’m some halwfit that cant read and don’t know shit and AnothonyTD is the only one to be trusted on this subject.

If you want to call me a twat, that’s fine, but don’t expect not to get a slap for it ;)

Jac Hawk
06-02-2011, 17:21
Ok guys put your handbags down lets not fall out over £5 worth of cables, anyway i've gone through all the posts and unless Anthony has taken apart a set of grey cables and not submitted a post, then it would seem that he has only taken apart a set of the whites, now i'm not disputing that there may be a difference in the cables, but they are both branded as Pure A/V Silver Series, my guess is that 1 type is the old model and 1 is the new, at the end of the day which ever you have got, at £5 a pair that's still fantastic value in my book.

keiths
06-02-2011, 18:10
Anyway if there's a difference i will never hear it cos it doesn't look like these mystical white coaxial cables are available any longer

Mike - I've got a spare pair of 2.4m white ones. PM me your address and I'll stick them in the post.

Welder
06-02-2011, 18:25
What a kind chap that Kieths is. :)
I was about to offer a set of the twin shielded RCA (grey, not coaxial) but they are only 0.5 metre and don’t have the original plugs on.

Stratmangler
06-02-2011, 20:42
I thought you guys might be interested in a deal I found yesterday at Microdirect in Manchester, although looking on the site it looks available online too.

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Home/Product/50228/Belkin-Digital-Coaxial-Audio-Cable-3-6m

Not sure how good these are, they look like the blue series but for £1 they seem pretty good.

I bought a few sets this afternoon - so far I've replaced the S/PDIF from Squeezebox Touch to Caiman DAC - I'll get round to doing a proper A/B test between this and my original lead later on in the week, but so far things are sounding good.

I'm also going to give them a run as analogue interconnects, hence the buying a few sets - at a quid a run it's £2 per stereo pair.

Mark Grant
07-02-2011, 13:22
I have several pairs, and actually prefer them to my MG's.
No problem :)

My cable has a flat measured response, an image of some measurements from ages ago:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5299/5424432101_74d5f1e6bb_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/yo43yo/5424432101/)
G1000HD flat response (http://www.flickr.com/photos/yo43yo/5424432101/) by Mark G. in England (http://www.flickr.com/people/yo43yo/), on Flickr

(I have cropped some stuff out as cant give too much away.)

Comment from an old email from someone that measures lots of stuff that produced the measurements above :

I tested the cables last Friday and, no surprises here, they are perfect. By that I mean absolutely flat to 40kHz+, no phase shift at all anywhere...

certainly flat.:cool:

All that matters is that people like how anything sounds in their own systems of course.:)

Mark Grant
07-02-2011, 13:37
Cannot see how these and the PF30 and 40's can be sold so cheap and be profitable, after all why would anyone sell something at less than cost, unless belkin are going blob and getting rid of stocks? The PF30 cannot possibly be manufactured for £25


Made in China, where wages are very low.

I doubt the ebay sellers will be selling the cables or PF30 etc at a loss.

An old thread where a dealer mentions margins etc:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1572

I am low margin...:scratch: :eek:

Mark.

Ali Tait
07-02-2011, 14:03
No problem :)

My cable has a flat measured response, an image of some measurements from ages ago:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5299/5424432101_74d5f1e6bb_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/yo43yo/5424432101/)
G1000HD flat response (http://www.flickr.com/photos/yo43yo/5424432101/) by Mark G. in England (http://www.flickr.com/people/yo43yo/), on Flickr

(I have cropped some stuff out as cant give too much away.)

Comment from an old email from someone that measures lots of stuff that produced the measurements above :


certainly flat.:cool:

All that matters is that people like how anything sounds in their own systems of course.:)

Not saying your cables are not very good Mark, they are! I have these as well as one of your HDMI cables, which was a big upgrade on my previous cable.

Things like this are always very system dependent, in mine I did prefer the slightly better top end with air and space of the Belkin, but to be fair there was very little in it. Other systems may find the opposite.

Marco
07-02-2011, 17:43
Hi Ali,

Indeed. I'm not at all surprised that Mark's cable measures as flat as a witches tit.

However, aside from that, any adverse sonic effect, however slight, you heard with the G1000HDs, I would suggest is not as a result of the characteristics of cable itself, but rather of the Canare plugs supplied. I should've made that clearer in my post on your ad. I will amend it shortly.

I can say this because I've heard exactly what you describe, and it is completely absent in the G2000HDs, or the G1500HDs supplied with Neutrik Pro-fi plugs.

The Canare plugs are of good quality (and Mark could hardly fit any better on his already excellent value for money entry-level cable), and are well constructed, but they do contain a large amount of metal, which a number of us have discovered recently is, sonically, a no-no.

It's to do with metal storing eddy currents. There are papers about this on the web, should you wish to read them.

This effect was discovered recently when comparing WBT 0102cu plugs (which contain metal in their internal construction) and WBT 0110cu plugs (which contain no metal, other than on the necessary conductors).

The 0102s are slightly more expensive, due only to the metal contained in their construction, yet when used in conjunction with Mark's excellent G1000HD cable, the sound is notably worse than with the 0110s...... Basically, high frequency extension is curtailed, and so the overall sound is somewhat 'softened'.

You can clearly hear the effect on a high quality, neutral-sounding system.

As for the Neutrik Pro-fi plugs, I can't recall their internal construction, but I suspect that overall there will be less metal used than on the Canares. Plus, in any case, the design is better, in terms of how contact is made.

Therefore, what I'm saying is not necessary to attribute what you've heard as being an effect of the G1000HD interconnects as a whole, but rather of the Canare plugs used.

It's something that I'd ask others and you to consider. It's long been my belief that the sonic effect of cables in a hi-fi system is more often than not attributable to the plugs used than the wire.

To that end, Mark should perhaps consider supplying his G1000HDs as standard with Neutrik Pro-fis (as priced on his site) and perhaps drop the Canares, making the choice offered then between the G1500 and G2000HDs. I'm sure that most people willing to spend £65 on interconnects would stretch to £90 for the same ones with much better plugs, and consequently significantly improved sonic performance.

This would then improve the quality of Mark's best selling entry-level cable, and the overall reputation of his products accordingly.

I'd be interested to hear what Mark's thoughts are on this? :)

Marco.

MartinT
07-02-2011, 18:17
I'm going for the upgrade from G1000HD to G2000HD as my step-up to phono preamp is such a sensitive run and you've convinced me that I will hear the benefit.

Marco
07-02-2011, 18:24
In your system, Martin, which acts as a wide-open window, you'll hear it no problem! :)

Marco.

Ali Tait
07-02-2011, 18:39
Hi Ali,

Indeed. I'm not at all surprised that Mark's cable measures as flat as a witches tit.

However, aside from that, any adverse sonic effect, however slight, you heard with the G1000HDs, I would suggest is not as a result of the characteristics of cable itself, but rather of the Canare plugs supplied. I should've made that clearer in my post on your ad. I will amend it shortly.

I can say this because I've heard exactly what you describe, and it is completely absent in the G2000HDs, or the cables supplied with Neutrik Pro-fi plugs.

The Canare plugs are of good quality (and Mark could hardly fit any better on his already great value for money entry-level cable), and are well constructed, but they do contain a large amount of metal, which a number of us have discovered recently is, sonically, a no-no.

It's to do with metal storing eddy currents. There are papers about this on the web, should you wish to read them.

This effect was discovered recently when comparing WBT 0102cu plugs (which contain metal in their internal construction) and WBT 0110cu plugs (which contain no metal, other than on the necessary conductors).

The 0102s are slightly more expensive, due only to the metal contained in their construction, yet when used in conjunction with Mark's excellent G1000HD cable, the sound is notably worse than with the 0110s...... Basically, the top-end is curtailed, and so the sound is somewhat 'softened'.

You can clearly hear the effect in a high quality, neutral-sounding system.

As for the Neutrik Pro-fi plugs, I can't recall their internal construction, but I suspect that overall there will be less metal used than on the Canares. Plus also, their design is better, in terms of how contact is made, in any case.

Therefore, what I'm saying is not necessary to attribute what you've heard as being an effect of the G1000HD interconnects as a whole, but rather of the Canare plugs used.

It's something that I'd ask others and you to consider. It's long been my belief that the sonic effect of cables in a hi-fi system is more often than not as a result of the plugs used than the wire.

To that end, Mark should perhaps consider making his G1000HDs come supplied as standard with Neutrik Pro-fis (as priced on his site) and consider dropping the Canares. I'm sure that most people willing to spend £65 on interconnects would spend £90 on the same ones with much better plugs, and consequently significantly improved sonic performance.

This would then improve the quality of Mark's best selling entry-level cable - and the overall reputation of his products accordingly.

I'd be interested to hear what Mark's thoughts are on this? :)

Marco.

I'd like to compare the different types sometime Marco.

Marco
07-02-2011, 18:44
No worries, dude - I'm sure we can do that :)

Marco.

Mark Grant
08-02-2011, 22:23
Not saying your cables are not very good Mark, they are! I have these as well as one of your HDMI cables, which was a big upgrade on my previous cable.

Things like this are always very system dependent, in mine I did prefer the slightly better top end with air and space of the Belkin, but to be fair there was very little in it. Other systems may find the opposite.

No problem Ali, all that matters is how your system sounds to your own ears :)

Marco
09-02-2011, 00:43
Hi Mark,

What do you think of the suggestion I made above? :)

Do you think if you could obtain the best price possible on a quantity purchase of Neutrik Pro-fis, you could provide them as standard on your entry-level cables at not too much more cost than what you charge at the moment for the G1000HDs with Canares?

If you could, I think in the long term it would be a winner for you.

Just a thought, dude! :cool:

Marco.

WAD62
09-02-2011, 12:31
My 2.4m belkin cable arrived today, I also purchased a 1m length, which sould be with me shortly...I know a good bandwagon when I see one ;)

My DAC (Audiolab 8000DAX) has 2 sets of analogue outputs which feed into an 8000Q, so I've inserted it alongside the Chord Chameleon (0.5M) I normally use. So when it's burned in a bit I should be able to do some nice A/B comparisons...at £3.50 (2.4M) Vs £120 (0.5M) it should make for an interesting test ;)

I actually bought it to feed my AV amp into my pre amp, but I'll try this little comparison first...:)

Effem
09-02-2011, 12:36
Hi Mark,

What do you think of the suggestion I made above? :)

Do you think if you could obtain the best price possible on a quantity purchase of Neutrik Pro-fis, you could provide them as standard on your entry-level cables at not too much more cost than what you charge at the moment for the G1000HDs with Canares?

If you could, I think in the long term it would be a winner for you.

Just a thought, dude! :cool:

Marco.

Neutrik Profi? Not the easiest plug to solder and the wire has to be trimmed JUST SO otherwise it looks a mess. As for an O/D of cable above 5mm it gets mighty tricky to fit in the shell with that daft cable grip. It's made out of plated brass, so nowt special about it from the electrical point of view.

Just my opinion of course :eyebrows:

Mark Grant
09-02-2011, 12:42
A bit of thread drift :)


I'm not at all surprised that Mark's cable measures as flat as a witches tit.

You have a way with words :)


However, aside from that, any adverse sonic effect, however slight, you heard with the G1000HDs, I would suggest is not as a result of the characteristics of cable itself, but rather of the Canare plugs supplied. I should've made that clearer in my post on your ad. I will amend it shortly.

I can say this because I've heard exactly what you describe, and it is completely absent in the G2000HDs, or the G1500HDs supplied with Neutrik Pro-fi plugs.

The Canare plugs are of good quality (and Mark could hardly fit any better on his already excellent value for money entry-level cable), and are well constructed, but they do contain a large amount of metal, which a number of us have discovered recently is, sonically, a no-no.

It's to do with metal storing eddy currents. There are papers about this on the web, should you wish to read them.

This effect was discovered recently when comparing WBT 0102cu plugs (which contain metal in their internal construction) and WBT 0110cu plugs (which contain no metal, other than on the necessary conductors).

The 0102s are slightly more expensive, due only to the metal contained in their construction, yet when used in conjunction with Mark's excellent G1000HD cable, the sound is notably worse than with the 0110s...... Basically, high frequency extension is curtailed, and so the overall sound is somewhat 'softened'.

You can clearly hear the effect on a high quality, neutral-sounding system.

Although for hundreds of people the Canare connector is just fine, dont forget you have a really high end valve amplifier and huge bassy speakers.

good comments here:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0710/mark_grant_g1000hd.htm

http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/02/06/2010/mark-grant-g1000hd-are-these-cables-as-good-as-some-say-they-are/



As for the Neutrik Pro-fi plugs, I can't recall their internal construction, but I suspect that overall there will be less metal used than on the Canares. Plus, in any case, the design is better, in terms of how contact is made.
The Neutrik Profi are great plugs and do fit very tightly to sockets, not much of a solder area for screening to be connected, the design could be improved slightly by Neutrik. I do like them :)

Neutrik Profi NF2C-B/2 Professional Phono Plug (http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=67_71&products_id=221)


Therefore, what I'm saying is not necessary to attribute what you've heard as being an effect of the G1000HD interconnects as a whole, but rather of the Canare plugs used.

Could be :)



It's something that I'd ask others and you to consider. It's long been my belief that the sonic effect of cables in a hi-fi system is more often than not attributable to the plugs used than the wire.

There does appear to be a pattern with the high end revealing systems of different connectors making a difference.


To that end, Mark should perhaps consider supplying his G1000HDs as standard with Neutrik Pro-fis (as priced on his site) and perhaps drop the Canares, making the choice offered then between the G1500 and G2000HDs. I'm sure that most people willing to spend £65 on interconnects would stretch to £90 for the same ones with much better plugs, and consequently significantly improved sonic performance.

This would then improve the quality of Mark's best selling entry-level cable, and the overall reputation of his products accordingly.

I'd be interested to hear what Mark's thoughts are on this? :)

Marco.

The Canare are perfect for most people but are fairly expensive now:
http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/43-069_CANARE-RCAP-C53-RCA-PHONO-PLUG-Group-Y that is + VAT so about £5 each if bought in small quantities :eek:
They are consistently high quality which is important, nothing worse than batch variations with the really cheap stuff from China.

There was a thread on the forums here about cheap plugs,
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9256

Johns comments saying "The outer cases are all over the place, (fast machined ally) and the internal threads have all needed cleaning out and de- burring.' so that not ideal." puts me of cheap stuff as that is the kind of consistency sometimes.


I do have some different low cost connectors that I will try and see what people think of them. Might be able to stay at the same price even though will take longer to assemble.
Only of they really are better though.

Mark.

WAD62
09-02-2011, 12:59
flat as a witches tit.


Quite a common turn of phrase up north, I'm from Gretna, but down here in the midlands the phrase seems to be 'As cold as a witch's tit'...

We obviously need to recalibrate Witches Tits, as an internationally recognised unit of measure ;)

Ali Tait
09-02-2011, 13:15
Be interested in what you think about the Belkin Will.

WAD62
09-02-2011, 13:19
Be interested in what you think about the Belkin Will.

Hi Ali,

In your experience how long would you recommend for the Belkin burn-in?...that is if you believe in such a thing ;)

I suppose the other variable is that I'm running it into my 'tuner' input, which I don't think I've ever used before, I suppose the thing would be to compare them for a couple of days as is, then switch them round and repeat the test. :eyebrows:

Edit; The only other thing to add is that at £3.99 it's a very impressive bit of hardware, if a cable can ever be described as physically impressive :)

Ali Tait
09-02-2011, 13:31
I didn't really notice any to be honest, but then I replaced all the cables in my system with the Belkins.

Mark Grant
09-02-2011, 13:32
Do you think if you could obtain the best price possible on a quantity purchase of Neutrik Pro-fis, you could provide them as standard on your entry-level cables at not too much more cost than what you charge at the moment for the G1000HDs with Canares?

If you could, I think in the long term it would be a winner for you.

Just a thought, dude! :cool:

Marco.

That's a possibility although as Frank said ( post gone ?) they are a bit fiddly to fit.
Not cheap even in fairly large quantities, they are good though. :)

Mark.

WAD62
09-02-2011, 14:13
I didn't really notice any to be honest, but then I replaced all the cables in my system with the Belkins.

The plot thickens, the postie's just arrived with my other 1M Belkin Cable (singular) :doh:

...I've quickly ordered another one...at £9 per cable, (or £18 for a pair, if you're one of those wierdos that listens to that new fangled stereo malarkey), it's beginning to mount up a bit...still not too bad if they're good ;)

First thing to report, the 2.4M is indeed grey, the 1M one is whiter than white.

I've attached some photos of the box blurb, they are indeed of different construction, and as stated earlier in the thread, grey are advertised as double shielded, whereas the white are labelled as quadruple, amongst other construction differences...

We'll have to wait for a couple of days for the white comparison...:doh:

The Grand Wazoo
09-02-2011, 14:29
Just to add a little more thickener to your plot:

The grey 1 metre ones I have (single run) of which I bought 10 to make up 5 stereo pairs are different again.
Bad scan I'm afraid - the only ones I have left with the diagram are still fully packaged up. But you can just make out a single drain wire which doesn't feature on your ones.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/3183/imgdl.jpg

Ali Tait
09-02-2011, 14:32
The plot thickens, the postie's just arrived with my other 1M Belkin Cable (singular) :doh:

...I've quickly ordered another one...at £9 per cable, (or £18 for a pair, if you're one of those wierdos that listens to that new fangled stereo malarkey), it's beginning to mount up a bit...still not too bad if they're good ;)

First thing to report, the 2.4M is indeed grey, the 1M one is whiter than white.

I've attached some photos of the box blurb, they are indeed of different construction, and as stated earlier in the thread, grey are advertised as double shielded, whereas the white are labelled as quadruple, amongst other construction differences...

We'll have to wait for a couple of days for the white comparison...:doh:
Be good to know if there's much sonic difference between the two Will. All of mine are the white ones.

anthonyTD
09-02-2011, 14:33
hi all,
bit late commenting on the latest findings with these cables since my last post on them. Anyway, it would seem that the latest grey versions are of the same construction as the original white ones i disected, [and yes it was just the one cable i dismantled] The new 1mtr white version is completely diffrent to both the old white and new grey, hope this makes sense, in simple form, the new grey one is the one to go for as far as the hybrid conductor construction is concerned.
Anthony,TD...

Reid Malenfant
09-02-2011, 14:33
Cheers for that post & picture Chris & Will :) this is precisely what i have been attempting to get accross - there is more than one type of each coloured cable :eyebrows:

Some people just don't listen :doh:

The Grand Wazoo
09-02-2011, 14:42
My 'old whites', bought from the original Ebay ad that was on the OP here didn't have a construction diagram on the box (I still have those boxes), or I'd have scanned that too.

WAD62
09-02-2011, 15:32
Chaps I think I've dropped a proverbial bollock!

The white single one, is a Digital Coax cable :doh:

Hence only one in the box, I was looking for analogue RCA, oh no, and I've ordered another :doh::doh:

One assumes these are not appropriate as analogue interconnects :scratch:

Can anyone please advise before I go begging to the vendor?

Reid Malenfant
09-02-2011, 15:40
They'll be 100% fine for an audio interconnect ;)

Barry
09-02-2011, 15:42
'Digital' cables will work perfectly well as audio interconnects.

To be a good digital cable, the cable ought to have a characteristic impedance of 75 Ohm and have low loss, appropriate to the high frequencies it handles. All of these attributes are largely irrelevant at audio frequencies, but certainly do no harm.

Use with confidance.

Regards

keiths
09-02-2011, 15:43
The 'new' grey ones appear to be the same contsruction as the 'old' white ones (which were different to the 'old' grey ones). As far as I'm aware, all the white analogue ones are the same (the picture Will posted is the white digital co-ax, which isn't the same construction as the white analogue cable). I've got white ones with and without the construction shown on the box.

Are the 'new' grey ones designated AD80300qnXM (where 'X' is 1, 2 or 5 depending on the length)?

The Grand Wazoo
09-02-2011, 15:44
My grey ones are supposed to be 'composite video' cables, they do the job just fine!

WAD62
09-02-2011, 15:46
They'll be 100% fine for an audio interconnect ;)

Cheers Mark, that's a relief as he's already dispatched the second one :)

So what if any would be the difference between the white digital coax, and the white analogue...apart from the fact that analogue would come as a pair :doh:

The wording on the box, or something more fundamental :scratch:

WAD62
09-02-2011, 15:47
Cheers to everyone for the reassurance...my day is re-made ;)

The Grand Wazoo
09-02-2011, 15:55
I posted somewhere way up there about the difference I found between the two types I have. (Not the ones you want to compare, but I'd imagine the differences would be of the same order of magnitude).

Reid Malenfant
09-02-2011, 15:59
My grey ones are supposed to be 'composite video' cables, they do the job just fine!
They would do perfectly well for digital cables as well Chris, again video needs a 75ohm specific impedance so in effect they are both :eyebrows:

Cheers Mark, that's a relief as he's already dispatched the second one :)

So what if any would be the difference between the white digital coax, and the white analogue...apart from the fact that analogue would come as a pair :doh:

The wording on the box, or something more fundamental :scratch:
I guess it depends on the internal design. With a digital or video cable they are really stuck with just a standard layout with a centre conductor & outer screen both connected at each end. Because audio cables do not need to have any specific impedance the manufacturers are free to mess about with alternative designs :)

WAD62
09-02-2011, 16:01
The 'new' grey ones appear to be the same contsruction as the 'old' white ones (which were different to the 'old' grey ones). As far as I'm aware, all the white analogue ones are the same (the picture Will posted is the white digital co-ax, which isn't the same construction as the white analogue cable). I've got white ones with and without the construction shown on the box.

Are the 'new' grey ones designated AD80300qnXM (where 'X' is 1, 2 or 5 depending on the length)?

Grey 2.4M; The selling code/barcode is labelled as AV50300ea08, so it doesn't conform to your mask :scratch:

White 1M; Selling Code is AD80100qn1M, which does fit the format

The Grand Wazoo
09-02-2011, 16:04
They would do perfectly well for digital cables as well Chris, again video needs a 75ohm specific impedance so in effect they are both :eyebrows:

Yes, it works fine in all applications I've tried, I was just trying to reassure Will a bit!

WAD62
09-02-2011, 16:16
Yes, it works fine in all applications I've tried, I was just trying to reassure Will a bit!

Thanks to both of you, it's only £9, but it's more the principle...

Now then, I might have yet again blundered myself into a positive situation

Prior to using a Squeezebox to feed my DAC, I ran a BNC/BNC cable between my CD player and DAC (Audiolab CDM/DAX).

Currently this is being used with a BNC/RCA adaptor at the SqueezeBox end, presumably the use of the adaptor removes any benefits of the BNC connection...or does it? And if so might I not be better off using the Belkin Coax instead, with an RCA/BNC adaptor.

FYI the DAX has 3 BNCs, 3 Toslinks, and one AES/EBU which I currently use for the CDM

Cheers in advance for all the help :)

Effem
09-02-2011, 21:43
That's a possibility although as Frank said ( post gone ?) they are a bit fiddly to fit.
Not cheap even in fairly large quantities, they are good though. :)

Mark.

My comment was post #220 Mark.

I have a couple of silver cables here fitted with Profi's and one has already fallen apart after light usage :( I don't rate them at all to be honest and the ones I have here were left over from a retermination job I did last year converting some very long Audio Synthesis cables into 1m sets which drove me demented after the first set, so I used some other plugs which were easier to fit and solder.

Marco
09-02-2011, 21:59
Hi Frank,

Lol - well the ones Mark has soldered for me on a pair of his cables are fine. And I've got DIY cables from Barry, with Neutriks on, and they're fine, so if the job's done right, I don't see there being a problem :)

My recommendation of them was solely on their sonic effectiveness, not how hard they are (or otherwise) to work with....

Mark, I'll comment later on the post you wrote :cool:

Marco.

WAD62
10-02-2011, 09:20
Right after yesterday's shambles lets try to make some sense of things...

The 2.4M Belkin grey is exceptionally good, fantastic for the price, but just not quite as good as the 0.5M Chord Chameleon, not quite the same detail, but most certainly not £110 worth of difference. I'm now using it to connect my AV amp to my Pre-Amp, which was my original intention.

I then tried the white 1M coax between my SqueezeBox and DAC with a maplins BNC adapter (a better one is on the way) at the DAC end, and what a noticeable improvement, a more realistic sound. The original BNC cable (see my earlier post) may have been OK with a BNC/BNC connection, but must have been compromised by using an adapter at the SqueezeBox end. (see my earlier post)

The white one is staying where it is, the second one I ordered will be saved for the next DAC :eyebrows:

Effem
10-02-2011, 09:23
Hi Frank,

Lol - well the ones Mark has soldered for me on a pair of his cables are fine. And I've got DIY cables from Barry, with Neutriks on, and they're fine, so if the job's done right, I don't see there being a problem :)

My recommendation of them was solely on their sonic effectiveness, not how hard they are (or otherwise) to work with....

Marco.

Nae bother big man, I did say it was just my opinion ;)

Jac Hawk
11-02-2011, 21:06
Well i got a set of the original white ones sent to me by kieth (cheers mate) so i set 2 identical cd players (pioneer pds503's)one with white cables the other with the grey ones up to my pioneer a400 amp, i ran 1 cd player from tape one and the other from tape two and used 2 identicle copies of Dire Straits Comunique as sample music, they are both the bloody same or if there is a difference i can't hear it.

magiccarpetride
11-02-2011, 22:15
Well i got a set of the original white ones sent to me by kieth (cheers mate) so i set 2 identical cd players (pioneer pds503's)one with white cables the other with the grey ones up to my pioneer a400 amp, i ran 1 cd player from tape one and the other from tape two and used 2 identicle copies of Dire Straits Comunique as sample music, they are both the bloody same or if there is a difference i can't hear it.

Good to hear:)