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View Full Version : Mains conditioners - worth it or not?



Ashmore
25-11-2010, 23:22
Opinions please on mains conditioners - specific recommendations or general tips on what to look for and what not to bother with.

Is there a test I can do to see if my mains is 'noisy' or whatever conditioners are designed to cure?

I resent spending money on stuff that doesn't have buttons and at least one little light, but if it makes a real difference...

Ta

John
26-11-2010, 05:01
My advice would be to get a home demo sometimes they make a huge difference other times not a lot Keep away from the amp use a good lead to the condictioner and consider Balanaced mains

Effem
26-11-2010, 07:40
I bought a cheap secondhand Belkin PF30 on ebay recently and it is worth every penny, trust me.

The Vinyl Adventure
26-11-2010, 09:37
I bought a new Belkin pf30 for about £40 with postage ... Stuck it on the things with cheap pays that are in my racks and it's worked a treat removing some of the grain from my hifi... And that's without even using a filter on the hifi bits it's self ... I'd say give one a go if you can still get them cheap ... It has a switch, and 3 green lights AND a blue light!

lovejoy
26-11-2010, 13:53
I agree with the advice that you need to get a home demo. I bought a Supra mains block and a load of mains cables to go with it when I had my Musical Fidelity A3.2 pre-power amps. It was a real improvement in that system.

Move forward a couple of years and with the Dynavector amps in place of the MFs, the Supra block and cables completely kill the life and dynamics in the music, so I'm back to the standard issue mains block and cables now.

Ali Tait
26-11-2010, 17:14
The Belkins are well worth it if you can still get the PF30 cheap.It really works,and even if you don't think so, £30 or 40 is not too much wasted. As John said,keep the amp away from it.Plug your telly into that high power socket instead-a real picture improvement.

Alex_UK
26-11-2010, 17:16
+1 for a PF30 - have a search around the forum and a read - I liked it so much I bought another for the TV/Sky HD/PS3.

Try searching for Tacima too, as they've been discussed extensively as well, may be another option but no switch and only one light! ;)

Ali Tait
26-11-2010, 17:17
I have three now!

MCRU
26-11-2010, 17:18
I also managed to get a PF30 Belkin for about £30, what a beast, I still think the Isotek Aquarius is amongst the best solutions personally for the money. I have tried quite a few conditioners and filters over the years, the Belkin does a decent job and if your budget is under £100 I would say get one if still available, PF30 or PF40, if you can justify more then there are other solutions which can bring dramatic improvements and are not classed as conditioners. I spent a great deal of time perfecting a 4/6/8 way mains extension block with silver plated wall sockets in it like a toblerone shape, I fitted a Furutech IEC inlet with a built in filter and wow, it worked a treat, I was able to internally wire all the sockets to the IEC and used it myself for about 3 months to really give it a good burn in, makes a good mains block and a mains filter/conditioner in 1!

Reid Malenfant
26-11-2010, 17:19
I have three now!
You think you're bad Ali :eyebrows: I have 3 PF40s & a PF30 :eek: :doh:

Needs must as they say :)

Well worth investing in either model imo ;)

Ashmore
26-11-2010, 17:48
thanks guys. I agree: 40 notes is in the 'give it a go' league.

I'm struggling to find it that price online. Is there a magic mains conditioner shop where you all go?

John
26-11-2010, 17:50
Very unlikely to get it at that price again They use to go cheap on ebay but as you see from the post they sold quite quickly

Reid Malenfant
26-11-2010, 17:51
Ebay & patience needed :eyebrows:

Sorry, but that's what it boils down to imo

SimontY
28-11-2010, 13:19
Simple mains filtering is usually just capacitors (typically with the appropriately safe X rating for Live-Neutral connection) across your mains supply. This may reduce some high frequency noise. There are also Y-rated caps to go across Live-Earth and Neutral-Earth. The y-caps are much smaller and, due to safety reasons, can't be large values. Belkin and other strips are just normal cheap strips with some of these caps installed along with some spike protection.

The spike protection in the cheap products consists of MOVs - metal oxide varistors. These reduce in impedance with increasing voltage to "clamp" the spikes. If they take too much energy they fail short-circuit, tripping your MCB or blowing the ring's fuse if that's what it uses.

Better spike protection may incorporate other devices such as transient diodes or other items, the names of which now escape me. They're used in telecomms. The more protection the better as it's less likely to blow, because the load is shared amongst the devices to some extent.

A simple mains filter can be made by buying a motor-run or flourescent lighting capacitor that is rated for constant mains use. This is installed across Live-Neutral. Something like 10uF seems to provide an audible benefit. This is many times larger than the cheap strips contain, and more audible too. With this type of mains filtering you can expect a subtle improvement in grain reduction in higher frequencies, more "bloom", a bigger soundstage and deeper bass.

Mains filters in series usually have a detrimental effect on audio quality. These typically contain an undersized series choke and are a terrible thing to use if you have a class A/B amplifier, which will demand large burst of current in normal use. Some are sold for hi-fi use like this, but they are a joke.

Another thing you can try is to run your kit through a large isolation transformer. You can find these used on Ebay. At one point I ran my CD player through a 500VA iso tx and it did give good improvements in smoothness and space. I also tried running my main amp at the time through a (very large) 2KVA transformer. It sounded more mellow and warm and spacious but it seemed to lose a little snap. Perhaps it was a problem, perhaps I just wasn't used to the less distorted sound... I'll mess with such things again some day but the large ones can really hum loudly if not toroidal types (and they won't be on Ebay). There are commercial products like this and they cost £1000 or so. They obviously come with an LED and brushed aluminium front but it's the same thing....

As has been mentioned, balanced mains seems to offer massive benefits. I'll let you Google that one as I've not tried it myself yet :)

Another thing to consider is replacing mains cable fuses with copper rods (it only protects the cable). If you don't understand this, don't do it. Lowering the mains impedance seems to be key to good sound. A thick, dedicated ring main for the hi-fi would be ideal. A good unswitched wall socket will also help. MK ones are very good. Expect a cleaner and louder sound with deeper bass and less grain.

Simon

John
28-11-2010, 14:00
Dedicated earth mains seem also to help but needs to be done by a qualified electrician as could prove fatel if not done right

SimontY
28-11-2010, 14:37
In one house I lived in I hammered an earth rod into the ground and wired that up. It seemed to help! In another, I dug a huge trench in the garden and buried a copper pipe and attached it to my earth near the hi-fi using 3 x 10mm2 earth cables. The funny thing was I heard no difference whatsoever that time! It was a good laugh though, and when we moved out (shared house) the landlord asked us why he found a pipe and cables buried under the patio!!!! lol

John
28-11-2010, 15:14
:lolsign:
I tried both reginarated mains and Balanced both really good and can make a real difference if you have mains issues
I have a big 3kva balanced transformer but still find if I put my valve amp through this it decreases performance but on my 2 plate amps and DAC/Pre it really helps

SimontY
28-11-2010, 16:05
Ahha, very interesting. I'd like to build a balanced mains filter one day :)

Spectral Morn
30-11-2010, 19:11
Another thing to consider is replacing mains cable fuses with copper rods (it only protects the cable). If you don't understand this, don't do it. Lowering the mains impedance seems to be key to good sound. A thick, dedicated ring main for the hi-fi would be ideal. A good unswitched wall socket will also help. MK ones are very good. Expect a cleaner and louder sound with deeper bass and less grain.

Simon


*NB*Under no circumstances follow this advice unless you have a death wish and want to have your questions about eternity answered quicker than you might like.

Always use the correct fuses that are rated for the mains box and your equipment.


Regards Neil

Reid Malenfant
30-11-2010, 19:29
*NB*Under no circumstances follow this advice unless you have a death wish and want to have your questions about eternity answered quicker than you might like.

Always use the correct fuses that are rated for the mains box and your equipment.


Regards Neil
I must agree with this, however the original poster is quite correct ;) The fuse in the mains plug is only protecting the cable & all hifi equipment should have fuses built in that will likely be of a lower rating. If it isn't lower then the fuse in the mains plug is wrong :doh:

As Neil says i wouldn't recommend it except under certain circumstances. One of which would be if you happen to use a mains regenerator that will already have current/power limiting. I have a PS Audio P600 which will actually only output just over 2Amps or so... Using this it'd be quite safe to do away with a fuse in the mains lead feeding any equipment downstream of it. The thing couldn't supply enough current to melt a 3Amp cable so there would be no need to fit a fuse & frankly it'd only make the audio worse :eyebrows:

Sketchy
30-11-2010, 19:49
I use APC line interactive Uninteruptable power supplies on everything, 3x 2200VA in total

they filter the mains aswell as providing a fair bit of time to shut everything off if the power goes, and the line interactive ones switch to battery so fast it wont even drop a phone call or drop internet connection.

Vinyleyes
10-12-2010, 11:59
The Belkins are well worth it if you can still get the PF30 cheap.It really works,and even if you don't think so, £30 or 40 is not too much wasted. As John said,keep the amp away from it.Plug your telly into that high power socket instead-a real picture improvement.

Ali .. do you mean here that you should not use the Belkin for the amp ... Or just position the amp some distance from the Belkin.
If we do not use the belkin for the amp then what is a good budget solution .. I am looking at the Tacima.
Thanks

The Grand Wazoo
10-12-2010, 12:08
Plug your amp straight into the wall, or into a normal unfiltered block. To find something that will filter the juice for your amp without sitting on the sound will cost a lot!

SimontY
10-12-2010, 12:11
Dalek Supreme, as someone representing the forum you're right to post safety concerns. I would like to say, though, that your statements are completely over the top, wrong even. The fuse is only protecting the cable from being cut. And if it is cut the circuit's MCB will almost certainly trip. Also, why would you go around cutting hi-fi mains cables? It's the job of the internal fuses to protect the equipment and user, not the mains lead.

Anyway, I do agree with your sentiments. I should have been clearer about the risk level ie. the mod does increase safety hazards a tiiiiny amount.

Edit: I'd also recommend having a fuse in the extension block as an extra safety measure if you're going to "kill yourself" with this highly lethal mod.

Vinyleyes
10-12-2010, 12:40
Plug your amp straight into the wall, or into a normal unfiltered block. To find something that will filter the juice for your amp without sitting on the sound will cost a lot!

Thanks for that ... Here are some Belkins on Ebay ... is this the one : "http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Belkin-PureAV-PF30-Surge-Suppressor-AP20500UK3M-/130409502965?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e5d0318f5

Beobloke
10-12-2010, 13:00
Dalek Supreme, as someone representing the forum you're right to post safety concerns. I would like to say, though, that your statements are completely over the top, wrong even.

No they are not. They are correct and carrying out the modification that you recommend is not only pointless (sonically) but downright dangerous.

Yes, the fuse protects if the cable is cut, but what about when you're moving your loudspeakers, for example, and manage to put a spike through a lead - not close enough to cause a direct short but just close enough to give a nice thinning of the insulation to start a good chunky leakage current to flow between the live and neutral conductors? Your 3A fuse will blow - your copper rod will not.

DO NOT MESS WITH ELECTRICITY.The regulations may seem a little over the top to those of us who know what we're doing (and before you ask, yes I do - I am licensed to work on single and three phase electrical systems up to 10,000V) but they are there to protect the enthusiastic bodgers who will read statments like yours and think them a good idea, which they most emphatically are NOT.

SimontY
10-12-2010, 13:08
I feel so sorry for every other country that doesn't use this fuse in their leads, their poor citizens must be dropping like flies every single day :)

Joking aside now, this is an audible mod (I'd not bother to don my finest flame-proof jacket and mention it otherwise). I think people have been adequately warned now and, for the record, I'm NOT a qualified electrician so proceed at your peril armed with the above warnings from these eminently sensible chaps.

Ali Tait
10-12-2010, 13:16
Ali .. do you mean here that you should not use the Belkin for the amp ... Or just position the amp some distance from the Belkin.
If we do not use the belkin for the amp then what is a good budget solution .. I am looking at the Tacima.
Thanks

Hi, I found plugging the amps into the Belkin sounded poorer than feeding them straight off the mains,and so have a lot of folks here. As ever though,try it for yourself before making your mind up.

The Grand Wazoo
10-12-2010, 13:19
Like Adam said:

DO NOT MESS WITH ELECTRICITY.The regulations may seem a little over the top to those of us who know what we're doing.... but they are there to protect the enthusiastic bodgers who will read statments like yours and think them a good idea, which they most emphatically are NOT.


Sometimes we lose sight of the fact that despite the things we say on internet fora between ourselves (most of whom are fairly knowledgable and sensible people) feel like an almost real-time conversation, they are there for the longer term and are visible to anyone who is interested enough to read them. They may not ask you for clarification of a point and they may just selectively read the parts that interest them.

It should be abundantly clear to all, that if you don't know exactly what you are doing with mains electricity, then you should leave it alone.

SimontY
10-12-2010, 13:19
Some people apparently object to the presence of MOVs on the line. This is not something I've really experienced myself but it's food for thought. Those Belkin strips are basically stuffed with MOVs and a few small, appropriately-rated capacitors.

SimontY
10-12-2010, 13:20
Sorry guys, I should've realised mentioning fuses was a mistake. Let's pretend it didn't happen.

Ali Tait
10-12-2010, 13:35
Thanks for that ... Here are some Belkins on Ebay ... is this the one : "http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Belkin-PureAV-PF30-Surge-Suppressor-AP20500UK3M-/130409502965?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e5d0318f5

Yes that's the one,though cheaper here-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Belkin-PureAV-Home-Theatre-Power-Console-PF30_W0QQitemZ110619748117QQihZ001QQcategoryZ294QQ cmdZViewItem#ht_599wt_654

There is also the PF40 for £99.

SimontY
10-12-2010, 13:39
That PF40 job looks very fun!

Ali Tait
10-12-2010, 13:44
Aye,they could be had for 40 quid when all this kicked off,but they're all gone now. I ended up with three '30's!