View Full Version : intrest check wireless USB DAC
Hi, I am new on the forum.
Currently I am involved in the development of a wireless USB DAC, at the moment we do have a working prototype :).
Before we are going to manufacture it I would like to find out if there would be a reasonable demand for such a product, and if so, if our design and feature set fulfills most requirements...
The wireless DAC system compromises:
1. Transmitter/preamp
- asynchronous USB input
- 24/96 support
- volume control
- headphone output
- wireless output
- battery powered (+/- 50 hours runtime / 500+ times rechargable)
- small 'tabletop' footprint (16 cm x 12 cm x 6 cm)
2. Receiver/DAC
- wireless input
- quality DAC
- fixed and variable outputs
- linear AC power supply
- small 'tabletop' footprint (16 cm x 12 cm x 8 cm)
Wireless technology
The wireless technology promises the following:
- guaranteed free from RF interference
- plug & play, no network settings etc.
- 24/96 support
- SNR > 120dB
- true channel separation, 0dB crosstalk
- no latency
- reach about 35 feet
Functionality
The wireless DAC system is useful for those who use, or want to use, a Laptop (or other USB audio device) as source component and want to have control (without wires) at their listening position.
Price
The expected retail price will be about 900 GBP.
I think this might be an interesting product for (computer) audiophiles but I am looking for a confirmation and perhaps some suggestions / comments I did not think about.
Thanks in advance for your response.
Cheers!
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/4486/airdacconcept.png
The Vinyl Adventure
17-11-2010, 21:43
Hi...
Looks interesting ...
What's the thinking behind the preamp at the transmitter end?
Hi Hamish,
'Preamp' is perhaps the wrong word choice, it's just a volume control and we are thinking of adding an S/PDIF input as well, not decided yet.
Ali Tait
17-11-2010, 22:06
What do you call a quality dac?
Hi Ali Tait,
A quality DAC in terms of implementation and chip, the DAC will compete with 'wired' USB DAC's in the same price range.
Will it have remote control? At £900 I wouldn't entertain a pre-amp that didn't - not just because I'm lazy, but an essential item for me, needing to quickly drop the volume when playing a little bit too loud late and night, and as you put it "to have control (without wires) at their listening position."
Stratmangler
18-11-2010, 07:52
Chord Electronics do a rather nice DAC called the Chordette Gem - transmits over Bluetooth.
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products_detail.asp?id=53
Just been looking further into it, and they've improved on the Gem http://www.petertyson.co.uk/ebuttonz/ebz_product_pages/chord_peach.shtml?fshop
The Vinyl Adventure
18-11-2010, 08:21
Hi Hamish,
'Preamp' is perhaps the wrong word choice, it's just a volume control and we are thinking of adding an S/PDIF input as well, not decided yet.
What's the thinking behind a volume control at the sender end, it occurs to me that people sending music from a pc to another room will be cotrolling the volume from the end they are sending the music to?
Ali Tait
18-11-2010, 10:20
Hi Ali Tait,
A quality DAC in terms of implementation and chip, the DAC will compete with 'wired' USB DAC's in the same price range.
What I was asking was what chip do you intend to use,and what type of output stage?
What I was asking was what chip do you intend to use,and what type of output stage?
No decison has been made regarding the chip, the prototype uses a cheap DAC just to proof/test functionality. We are considering to implement the ESS Sabre ES9018 (dual mono) with discrete output stage for production model. But we know that a potentially very nice 24 bit resistor ladder chip will be released in February 2011 by a new company, we will be patient enough to try this one.
Chord Electronics do a rather nice DAC called the Chordette Gem - transmits over Bluetooth.
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products_detail.asp?id=53
Just been looking further into it, and they've improved on the Gem http://www.petertyson.co.uk/ebuttonz/ebz_product_pages/chord_peach.shtml?fshop
The Chord is nice but some of the differences to our system are:
- no 24/96 support
- Bluetooth = compressed signal due to limited bandwidth
- no discrete channels thus no true channel separation
- prone to RF interference
- as far as I can see there is no volume control
Ali Tait
18-11-2010, 12:28
The Sabre would be a good choice IMO, certainly from a commercial point of view, as long as it's well implemented. Would be a good selling point at the moment. The resistor ladder sounds like a good idea too.
Will it have remote control? At £900 I wouldn't entertain a pre-amp that didn't - not just because I'm lazy, but an essential item for me, needing to quickly drop the volume when playing a little bit too loud late and night, and as you put it "to have control (without wires) at their listening position."
This is an interesting suggestion, we will consider it. The idea behind the volume control on the transmitter is that you have your Laptop at your listening position which is connected to the transmitter so the volume control is within reach. A remote control could be useful if you use it in a different setup like when you are having a party or something.
Ali Tait
18-11-2010, 12:34
One thing springs to mind. At the projected price, it will be audiophile types purchasing this rather than the computer-savvy general public, and given there is I think a percieved loss of quality using wireless, or at least a lot of audiophiles have that perception, I'd allow for wired connection also.
One thing springs to mind. At the projected price, it will be audiophile types purchasing this rather than the computer-savvy general public, and given there is I think a percieved loss of quality using wireless, or at least a lot of audiophiles have that perception, I'd allow for wired connection also.
The wireless link is in our opinion 'audiophile proof':
- bit perfect
- lossless
- no latency
- no RF interference
- 24/96 support (unfortunately no 24/192 support yet)
- discrete channels for L + R thus zero crosstalk
- potentially 140dB SNR and 0.0001% THD (limited by DAC and implementation)
Personally I think the only disadvantage will be that it is limited to 24/96 support. I think/hope that a fair share of the users can live with this.
Ali Tait
18-11-2010, 13:17
Looks good, and I don't disagree, but convincing people is another matter!
Why is the wireless reach only 35 feet? Of course a lot depends on the construction of walls and ceilings. Is the reach any different to a typical router/PC connection?
Why is the wireless reach only 35 feet? Of course a lot depends on the construction of walls and ceilings. Is the reach any different to a typical router/PC connection?
The wireless technology we use is not suitable for multiroom applications. Our wireless DAC solution is intended for those who want to use a Laptop/USB audio device at their listening position thus in the same room.
The wireless technology we use is not suitable for multiroom applications. Our wireless DAC solution is intended for those who want to use a Laptop/USB audio device at their listening position thus in the same room.
This seems like quite a restricted market. Once people have ripped their music aren't they likely to branch out to some form of multi-room, if only for music in the kitchen. 35 feet could still be ok though.
This seems like quite a restricted market. Once people have ripped their music aren't they likely to branch out to some form of multi-room, if only for music in the kitchen. 35 feet could still be ok though.
This is one of the issues I am trying to find out, our wireless link is 'audiophile proof' but the trade off is that it is not suitable for multi-room.
I have placed the transmitter on a sidetable near my chair, when I want to listen music I just plug-in the usb cable, open album player and enjoy, truly convenient. And I can use other applications on my laptop at the same time as well if I want some background music while working or just browsing on my laptop. This kind of functionality is of course not unique (Apple Airport Express, Arcam rDAC, and others) but they have their trade off in terms of SQ and potential RF interference.
So your market is the audiophile who uses a Mac/PC for music in the same room as their system but where the computer is too far from the computer for a wired connection.
If the DAC also works with and makes sense for those who want a wired connection then ok. If it's only viable as a purchase in an in-room wireless scenario then the market seems small to me. But what do I know!
One other point, which you must have agonised over....how about an add-on unit for existing DACs? Unless your DAC implementation is very special it's going to have to compete with a lot of DACs out there which sound similar. DACs have to be updated regularly to keep up, even if only for marketing reasons. An add-on wireless module should be much more stable.
Clive,
Personally I think it will be more attractive for Laptop users instead of stationary PC/Mac users, the transmitter is portable and battery powered.
The idea behind it is that you have your music library interface + volume control within reach at your listening position without the need for a fancy music server (+ remote controlled interface). At the same time you keep the flexibility of a Laptop (with external HDD) and there is no compromise on SQ.
One other point, which you must have agonised over....how about an add-on unit for existing DACs? Unless your DAC implementation is very special it's going to have to compete with a lot of DACs out there which sound similar. DACs have to be updated regularly to keep up, even if only for marketing reasons. An add-on wireless module should be much more stable.
This is indeed something we have considered, just offering the wireless link with digital output. However, in that case we can not offer volume control / variable output which we think is a nice feature, besides that, competing with other DACs by improving the product keeps the market alive, which is both good for consumers and manufacturers.
Stratmangler
18-11-2010, 18:23
The Chord is nice but some of the differences to our system are:
- no 24/96 support
- Bluetooth = compressed signal due to limited bandwidth
- no discrete channels thus no true channel separation
- prone to RF interference
- as far as I can see there is no volume control
You are quite correct with your comment about lack of volume control.
The rest unfortunately is bullshit - have you actually tried one their DACs ?
I'm merely pointing out the product you are competing with - rubbishing the competition gains you zero credibility points.
You are quite correct with your comment about lack of volume control.
The rest unfortunately is bullshit - have you actually tried one their DACs ?
I'm merely pointing out the product you are competing with - rubbishing the competition gains you zero credibility points.
I am not rubbishing the competition, just comparing specifications, which I think is fair when competing. In fact I said it's a nice product... you can not blame me for pointing out technical differences as I am here to find out if there is any interest. If my points are bullshit, please correct me where I am wrong and I will sincerely apologize for that.
jantheman
18-11-2010, 19:27
This is indeed something we have considered, just offering the wireless link with digital output.
Put me down for one....providing its better that an Airport express. Not toslink either...
Put me down for one....providing its better that an Airport express. Not toslink either...
Thank you for your response, if we release a 'wireless link only' system this version will at least have toslink and coax output.
Reid Malenfant
18-11-2010, 20:03
Thank you for your response, if we release a 'wireless link only' system this version will at least have toslink and coax output.
If you are going to be serious about this you need to include an AES/EBU balanced digital output.
If you are going to be serious about this you need to include an AES/EBU balanced digital output.
Thanks for the suggestion, so:
- toslink
- coax
- AES/EBU
Perhaps I2S either?
Ali Tait
19-11-2010, 05:49
I would. It's a feature people like to see.
StanleyB
19-11-2010, 08:49
No doubt some people would like to see I2S. But I am yet to find any CD or DVD player in the local shop that has an I2S output. And if it is for connection to a PC, then forget I2S.
In all honesty, I2S is been given more credibility than it deserves. An I2S signal fed into a DAC chip directly cannot be corrected by the receiver/clock IC. So all the errors will be pumped through the DAC chip. On my reckoning an I2S signal is more jitter prone than a signal that is first processed by a receiver chip.
jantheman
19-11-2010, 08:56
If you are going to be serious about this you need to include an AES/EBU balanced digital output.
Is USB possible?.....
No doubt some people would like to see I2S. But I am yet to find any CD or DVD player in the local shop that has an I2S output. And if it is for connection to a PC, then forget I2S.
In all honesty, I2S is been given more credibility than it deserves. An I2S signal fed into a DAC chip directly cannot be corrected by the receiver/clock IC. So all the errors will be pumped through the DAC chip. On my reckoning an I2S signal is more jitter prone than a signal that is first processed by a receiver chip.
In the 'wireless link only' scenario it will be used for connection to a DAC.
If I'm going to use it to send music from my laptop to my hifi, is the transmitter a dongle or a separate unit connected to the laptop via a USB cable? If I'm sitting in a chair with a laptop on my knee browsing TAOS whilst listening to good sounds, the last thing I want is a cable connecting me to a box. A dongle on the other hand would be perfectly acceptable.
@ Shane
It will be a separate, battery powered, unit which will include:
- volume control
- headphone amplifier
So unfortunately I have to disappoint you.
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/4486/airdacconcept.png
Interesting sounding product, make sure I2S is buffered if you choose to offer it as an optional output.
Interesting sounding product, make sure I2S is buffered if you choose to offer it as an optional output.
Thank you Leo, I will forward this to the electronics designer.
If I'm going to use it to send music from my laptop to my hifi, is the transmitter a dongle or a separate unit connected to the laptop via a USB cable? If I'm sitting in a chair with a laptop on my knee browsing TAOS whilst listening to good sounds, the last thing I want is a cable connecting me to a box. A dongle on the other hand would be perfectly acceptable.
For a dongle solution there are several offers:
- http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,Devices,Accessories,rWave.htm
- http://www.iogear.com/product/GUW101A/
- http://www.resolutionaudio.com/pontneuf.html
And if you use Apple iTunes you could also opt for an Apple Airport Express which give you a similar result.
Just out of curiousity, what do you mean with 'browsing TAOS'?
Reid Malenfant
19-11-2010, 19:33
.Just out of curiousity, what do you mean with 'browsing TAOS'?
I should imagine Shane means "The Art Of Sound", this forum ;)
Put me down for one....providing its better that an Airport express. Not toslink either...
Hi jantheman and other interested TAOS members,
We have been calculating and a 'wireless link only' version (thus without DAC), would retail for about 375 - 400 GBP (VAT included).
Summarized you get this for 375 - 400 GBP:
A wireless USB connection for use between Laptop/USB audio source and DAC, compromising:
- 1 x wireless USB transmitter, battery powered (run time 50+ hours, 1.500+ times rechargable LifePO4).
- 1 x wireless receiver with toslink, coax and aes/ebu digital outputs and perhaps i2s.
- 24/96 support
- guaranteed free from RF interference
- reach about 35ft, indoor single room
- < 0.2ms latency
- 0dB crosstalk, discrete L + R channels
- small 'tabletop' footprint (16 cm x 12 cm x 6 cm)
- quality finished enclosure but no overkill
- Plug & Play
My question for those who where interested in this 'wireless link only' system, are you still interested considering the price?
jantheman
02-12-2010, 09:36
Could that also include a USB out for those with USB DAC's?
I will check that with the designer.
Vinyleyes
09-12-2010, 16:48
Hi jantheman and other interested TAOS members,
We have been calculating and a 'wireless link only' version (thus without DAC), would retail for about 375 - 400 GBP (VAT included).
Summarized you get this for 375 - 400 GBP:
A wireless USB connection for use between Laptop/USB audio source and DAC, compromising:
- 1 x wireless USB transmitter, battery powered (run time 50+ hours, 1.500+ times rechargable LifePO4).
- 1 x wireless receiver with toslink, coax and aes/ebu digital outputs and perhaps i2s.
- 24/96 support
- guaranteed free from RF interference
- reach about 35ft, indoor single room
- < 0.2ms latency
- 0dB crosstalk, discrete L + R channels
- small 'tabletop' footprint (16 cm x 12 cm x 6 cm)
- quality finished enclosure but no overkill
- Plug & Play
My question for those who where interested in this 'wireless link only' system, are you still interested considering the price?
Hallo .. I am interested in such a device. But please could you explain why yours is the most "audiophile" solution out there. For instance why is better than this one Which I am considering purchasing at the moment.
http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/Bard-USB-Transmitter/product_2639
You can reply by PM so do not worry about potentially "dissing" the competition. Your comments are welcome and will be treated simpy as someone else's personal opinion :-)
Also what about streaming video content, internet radio and U tube to a home system from our laptops .. what do we need for that .. Can you supply.
Thanks
Could that also include a USB out for those with USB DAC's?
This is not possible, on the 'wireless link only' the digital outputs will be coax, toslink, xlr and i2s (rj45).
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