MC vs MM?

[magiccarpetride]

I'm slowly starting to plot and plan my comeback into the vinyl arena. One thing that I vaguely recall from my pre-digital days is the moving magnet vs. moving coil debate. I know that moving coil cartridges are supposed to be way superior, but is the price/performance ratio worth it?

Any insight you guys can offer, along with recommended products, would be mucho appreciated.

[hifi_dave]

What is your turntable, arm and phono stage ?

[magiccarpetride]

What is your turntable, arm and phono stage ?

Like I've stated above, I'm just beginning to plot my way back into the analog arena. Meaning, I don't have the gear, which is why I'm asking the question here. I thought I should start with the flavor of the cartridge (MM or MC) first, which will then inform my purchasing decisions with regard to the turntable, arm, phono.

Actually, I do have some gear, but I think it might be sub-standard. Basically, it's the Dual 505 turntable with Audio Technica MM cartridge into the QED Discsaver phono. Should I work with that gear, or should I start from the clean slate?

Also keep in mind that this is mostly an experiment, to get me to see how far can I get in terms of squeezing decent sound from vinyl, and so my budget is limited.

[Stratmangler]

Stick with an MM.

[DSJR]

The Dual 505 tonearm won't work with a MC type except possibly the Denon 304, which tracks at 1.25grammes and even then, the deck won't allow more than a hint of what this cartridge can do.

You really would be better off looking out for either a Pro-ject 1 or 1.5 if you can find one under a ton, or a Rega Planar 3 with R200 arm although prices are climbing sadly. Either of these options would be an easy and painless upgrade from the 505. Thorens TD150's and 160's need more knowledge and care in setup, but an early TD160 with massy TP16 arm and headshell will take the more tolerant MC types.

Me, I'm going back to late ceramic cartridges and have Acos GP96-1, GP104 and Sonotone 9TAHC and 16TAF ready to go. All I need now is a Garrard KS41C/Sonotone 3559 and I'll be complete........ ;)

[AlanS]

Actually, I do have some gear, but I think it might be sub-standard. Basically, it's the Dual 505 turntable with Audio Technica MM cartridge into the QED Discsaver phono.
Also keep in mind that this is mostly an experiment, to get me to see how far can I get in terms of squeezing decent sound from vinyl, and so my budget is limited.

So have you fired up the Dual with a disk. May answer many of your questions. Then you can tell us all about it.
Beware of burn/wear out though.

[magiccarpetride]

So have you fired up the Dual with a disk. May answer many of your questions. Then you can tell us all about it.

Not yet. Would like to learn from you whether it's even worth the trouble looking into such sub-standard gear?


Beware of burn/wear out though.

What do you mean by that?

[magiccarpetride]

Stick with an MM.

You saying that MM sounds better?

[Stratmangler]

You saying that MM sounds better?

Nope.
The arm will not work well with MC, so fugeddaboutit !

The DUAL is/was a good starter deck.
I had one for a while.
Give it a nice MM and it will reward you with nice sounds.
And that's the problem - it'll sound nice, but a bit pedestrian.
A small step up the 2nd hand TT ladder would probably yield much better and more interesting results.

Here's a good one for starters http://cgi.ebay.ca/Rare-THORENS-TD-150-M-K-II-Turntable-Atomic-Era-WORKS-/160504543284?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item255ed0f834

[blake]

Like I've stated above, I'm just beginning to plot my way back into the analog arena. Meaning, I don't have the gear, which is why I'm asking the question here. I thought I should start with the flavor of the cartridge (MM or MC) first, which will then inform my purchasing decisions with regard to the turntable, arm, phono.

Actually, I do have some gear, but I think it might be sub-standard. Basically, it's the Dual 505 turntable with Audio Technica MM cartridge into the QED Discsaver phono. Should I work with that gear, or should I start from the clean slate?

Also keep in mind that this is mostly an experiment, to get me to see how far can I get in terms of squeezing decent sound from vinyl, and so my budget is limited.


If the budget is limited, as others have said, stick with MM. If you're going to do anything, you may as well do it right, and with MC that means low output MC. Low output MC in many cases requires specialized (read more $$) matching up with respect to tonearm and phono stage (and turntable of course). All of it adds up to more $$ to really do it well. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing well.

MM is much easier to maximize performance with with limited $$. Do as much as you can with MM and then, if you really want to take to the plunge and move into maximum performance territory, look at low output MC.

[DSJR]

Deck first, then the tonearm and only THEN, the cartridge ;)

[hifi_dave]

MC cartridges are generally more expensive than MM's and they are more demanding of the arm. Your Dual won't allow a MC to work properly.

To dip your toe in the water you could put a decent MM on your Dual but you won't get good sounds until you change the turntable/arm for something better like a Rega.

Rega have just introduced the RP1 which comes complete with Ortofon cartridge for £225 all in. This will sound far better than the Dual and be a good base from which to start your adventures in vinyl.

Alternatively, there are some s/h turntables which might suit but you would probably need to re-furbish before using.

[AlanS]

Not yet. Would like to learn from you whether it's even worth the trouble looking into such sub-standard gear?



What do you mean by that?

Why not try it what have you got to loose? Is it snobishness? I am forming the impression this is more in your head and thoughts than ears. Simply setup the Dual etc and listen - this is subjective land - form your own ideas, just accepting others opinions is :doh:. It isn't going to harm you or your equipment is it. You will have a reference point for if you ever try anything else.

You do realise that unless you a) spend 1,000s or b) are very lucky you will have a noticably inferior sound to your much applauded Caiman DAC? So what is your budget? Lets cut to it and see what you are up for paying because it may just not give you comparable sound to Caiman (before burn-in).

Burn-out ? Think about it DAC man - all of vinyl playing is mechanical, bearings, drive mechanisms, stylus. What do mechanical things do (think cars) - they wear out. You may get a bit of burn-in for a new stylus but apart from that it is downhill - could you cope?

Tip - visit a dealer and ask to listen to a really high end turntable/arm/cartridge vs a DAC system (through same amp/speakers). May give you an idea of what can be done, allow you to decide if it is worth it, then consider/listen to kit at your budget level.

Bet you can not live with affordable vinyl, you've fallen in love with the idea. He woke up and it was all a dream. :scratch:

And we haven't even mentioned media quaility

[Welder]

Hi Alex.

“I'm slowly starting to plot and plan my comeback into the vinyl arena.”
Why?

Vinyl can give you a really great sound, but it comes at a price and that price isn’t cheap; not in financial terms or in troublesomeness.
I think from what I can recall about your digital equipment you’re going to be hard pressed to get an equivalent quality of sound with a Dual 505 and a MM cartridge and then of course you’ll need records!

I have to agree with Alan, you’re just not going to hack it under £1000.
You could buy a very competent Dac at that price.

[magiccarpetride]

Hi Alex.

“I'm slowly starting to plot and plan my comeback into the vinyl arena.”
Why?

Three reasons:

1. My recent forays into the brave new world of high definition audio (24 bit/96 kHz) have whetted my appetite for analog sound. I am now starting to recall how my kit sounded 20 years ago, before I switched to digital, and I am starting to crave that smooth analog sound.

2. My desire to listen to the copious amount of out-of-print music that I have at home on vinyl. I'm not holding my breath that these rare LPs will ever be properly remastered in high def and offered on the market, so the only way back into that music is via analog gear.

3. The ability to get tons of great music on the cheap (there are many used LPs stores around here; one just across the street from where I live). Good vinyl can be had for loose change in my town.

[magiccarpetride]

Why not try it what have you got to loose? Is it snobishness? I am forming the impression this is more in your head and thoughts than ears. Simply setup the Dual etc and listen - this is subjective land - form your own ideas, just accepting others opinions is :doh:. It isn't going to harm you or your equipment is it. You will have a reference point for if you ever try anything else.

You do realise that unless you a) spend 1,000s or b) are very lucky you will have a noticably inferior sound to your much applauded Caiman DAC? So what is your budget? Lets cut to it and see what you are up for paying because it may just not give you comparable sound to Caiman (before burn-in).

Burn-out ? Think about it DAC man - all of vinyl playing is mechanical, bearings, drive mechanisms, stylus. What do mechanical things do (think cars) - they wear out. You may get a bit of burn-in for a new stylus but apart from that it is downhill - could you cope?

Tip - visit a dealer and ask to listen to a really high end turntable/arm/cartridge vs a DAC system (through same amp/speakers). May give you an idea of what can be done, allow you to decide if it is worth it, then consider/listen to kit at your budget level.

Bet you can not live with affordable vinyl, you've fallen in love with the idea. He woke up and it was all a dream. :scratch:

And we haven't even mentioned media quaility

It's not snobbishness, it's merely logistics and inconvenience. The way I have my gear set up now, there's just no way I could fit a turntable in. I would have to do some serious rearranging, which my take a lot of my time, only to give Dual a spin. I was trying to preemptively learn whether it's even worth the trouble.

Plus, I like tweaking. And nothing is more endlessly tweakable than the cartridge/arm combo. I remember spending hours on end dicking with my Thorens TD124 (this was during the pre-digital era, when the dinosaurs were still roaming the earth).

[magiccarpetride]

Deck first, then the tonearm and only THEN, the cartridge ;)

Hmmm, okay, I'll take your word for it. But isn't this kind of backward? I mean, what if you, by choosing a turntable first etc., realize down the road that you'd prefer MC cartridge, but the tt/arm won't support it?

[hifi_dave]

The turntable is the most important item, followed by arm and cartridge. As I said previously, you don't need to spend a fortune to get a good sounding, well made turntable/arm which will take a MM or MC if and when you feel it necessary.

Some idea of your budget will aid us to suggest record players for you to consider.

[Reid Malenfant]

The turntable is the most important item, followed by arm and cartridge.
This makes perfect sense to me ;) If the TT does a poor job then it doesn't matter how good the arm or cartridge are as it'll do a poor job of detail retrieval etc. Logically the next most important item must be the pickup arm, with the cartridge last on the list.

Obviously if all else is good & right then it's worth investing in a good MC cartridge, but not before it is or it'll be money wasted :)

[magiccarpetride]

This makes perfect sense to me ;) If the TT does a poor job then it doesn't matter how good the arm or cartridge are as it'll do a poor job of detail retrieval etc. Logically the next most important item must be the pickup arm, with the cartridge last on the list.

Obviously if all else is good & right then it's worth investing in a good MC cartridge, but not before it is or it'll be money wasted :)

So what you're saying is there is no way to end up with high quality turntable/arm only to realize that it cannot support high quality MC cartridge?

[Reid Malenfant]

No, what i'm saying is you'd be wasting your time & money investing in an expensive low output moving coil cartridge unless the turntable & arm are up to the same kind of quality as the cartridge.

As an example, you could have some of the best quality loudspeaker drive units in the world, but put them in a crappy enclosure & they'll sound like crap. On the other hand you could have cheaper drive units & build a quality enclosure & totally out perform the expensive drivers in the crappy ones.

[Welder]

Alex.
1)
I can’t argue with that. But, I think you’ll be needing a bit more than a Dual 505 to scratch that particular itch and that means heavyweight arm and a MC cartridge. MM just don’t give what I can only inadequately describe as the same depth a Moving Coil does.

2)
Ah yes, I can empathise with that particular problem. I’ve got loads of music on tape (reel to reel) and at first glance transferring it to digital would seem fairly straightforward, but the more you look into it the less satisfactory the affordable option s seem to be. I wish I had kept my old Revox now :(
3)
Hmmm, sure there is a lot of second hand vinyl out there but audiophile condition/recording standard is still expensive; the vinyl kiddies have probably got there way before you. The price of good quality records was one of the reasons I finally gave up on vinyl.

I think your “price to scratch that itch” has just gone up another £1000 :eyebrows:

[magiccarpetride]

Alex.
1)
I can’t argue with that. But, I think you’ll be needing a bit more than a Dual 505 to scratch that particular itch and that means heavyweight arm and a MC cartridge. MM just don’t give what I can only inadequately describe as the same depth a Moving Coil does.

That's the kind of an answer I was expecting from you guys. At least I now know that polishing the turd (i.e. Dual 505) won't get me anywhere. OK, check!


2)
Ah yes, I can empathise with that particular problem. I’ve got loads of music on tape (reel to reel) and at first glance transferring it to digital would seem fairly straightforward, but the more you look into it the less satisfactory the affordable option s seem to be. I wish I had kept my old Revox now :(

Yeah, the jury is still out on whether high definition vinyl rips are worth the trouble. From what I've heard so far, not even close. I'm now thinking that the only way to listen to the out-of-print vinyl is to spin it on a turntable. Rips don't seem to reach it, for whatever reason.


3)
Hmmm, sure there is a lot of second hand vinyl out there but audiophile condition/recording standard is still expensive; the vinyl kiddies have probably got there way before you. The price of good quality records was one of the reasons I finally gave up on vinyl.

I think your “price to scratch that itch” has just gone up another £1000 :eyebrows:

Ouch! Can one of you gentle souls here tell me what's your opinion on this deal:

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/ele/2049981864.html (Systemdek IIX w/Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge -- $400.00)

Also, this one: http://victoria.en.craigslist.ca/ele/2053800702.html (Unity Audio Rotary Platform turntable with a well matched Grace tonearm and Denon 110 high output moving coil cartridge and a MusicMat isolation mat, all for $275.00)

[Welder]

The Systemdeck was a nice midrange deck in its day. It will take an arm more suited to a Moving Coil.
Don’t know anything about the other except the Grace arm isn’t really suitable for a MC.

The bottom line is Alex, I just cant see a mid range vinyl settup giving you the kind of sound quality you get with your touch and Caiman.
A good vinyl setup on the other hand will, but imo it’s going to cost.
I think for people like myself who aren’t particularly “high end” audio, this is where file audio is at it’s strongest per pound spent.
I had a Thorens TD160S decently modded and a haddcock gh242 with various MC cartridges and while I’m the first to admit there are far better vinyl spinners out there, it was pretty musical at that price range but still mid range.
File audio, as I now have, tore it to shreds I’m sorry to say feeding the same amplification and speakers.
Yes, the vinyl system did at a casual listen sound good but by the time the record condition had made its bit of noise and then the step up transformer its bit etc, etc, I got analogue sound but the dynamic range and normal analogue shortfalls at that price range just didn’t match the file based kit.
Sad but true.

[magiccarpetride]

The Systemdeck was a nice midrange deck in its day. It will take an arm more suited to a Moving Coil.
Don’t know anything about the other except the Grace arm isn’t really suitable for a MC.

The bottom line is Alex, I just cant see a mid range vinyl settup giving you the kind of sound quality you get with your touch and Caiman.
A good vinyl setup on the other hand will, but imo it’s going to cost.
I think for people like myself who aren’t particularly “high end” audio, this is where file audio is at it’s strongest per pound spent.
I had a Thorens TD160S decently modded and a haddcock gh242 with various MC cartridges and while I’m the first to admit there are far better vinyl spinners out there, it was pretty musical at that price range but still mid range.
File audio, as I now have, tore it to shreds I’m sorry to say feeding the same amplification and speakers.
Yes, the vinyl system did at a casual listen sound good but by the time the record condition had made its bit of noise and then the step up transformer its bit etc, etc, I got analogue sound but the dynamic range and normal analogue shortfalls at that price range just didn’t match the file based kit.
Sad but true.

Thanks John, you've been mighty helpful, and I appreciate your advice.

Yeah, it's very hard for me to envision how could a vinyl system, any vinyl system, beat Touch into Caiman playing well mastered 24/96 files. Unless, like you say, I sell the house and then burn tens of thousands of dollars on some esoteric analog shit.