Mix 'n' match... valve w/tranny???

[JazzBones]

:whistle: Morning all, am starting this new thread (with possibly a bit of needle) brought over from the tail end of my 'Earth Wire' bit.

Now, I know there are bods out there who adore the glowing bottles and would cross to the other side of the road, or leave the country, if the satanic solid state tranny was fast approaching them and of course this goes the other way as well. I've always hankered after the best of both worlds wherein my pre amp would be valves, eg. Croft, and my power amp/s would be solid state along the lines of the 1970/80 successful marriage twix ARC and Krell...I don't know if that marriage still lasts, but change is always with us, yes?

Now our beloved leader, Marco (no I'm not North Korean) :), informed me that he once used exactly the set up I'm heading for, viz; Croft pre and Naim 135s and also pointed me in the direction for a suitable interconnect to link the two together, thanks Marco.

This pre-amble leads me to asking AoS brethren their experiences, thoughts, pros or cons, and so forth on the headlined subject? Looking at various pictures of kit here shows me what an Aladdin's cave of goodies that are out there, drool.

Finally, are there others (other than Marco) who have travelled this audio route of Croft plus Naim, or any other pre plus Naim?

Thanks, in advance, to all who share their experience on this subject.

Ron

[Techno Commander]

I have used a valve pre and transistor power amp combination for almost 10 years and have been supremely happy with such a mix. None of the amps were Naim though.

[colinB]

I have a Icon valve phono going though a Rotel and im very happy with the results. The valve sound with the power of the rotel seem to be a perfect match for me.

[DSJR]

Ron, do you still have a 72? If so, you can substantially improve and update it - to make it more neutral and universal - with Avondale 821 cards. Substitution of the 135's for something else would also enable you to dispense with the tone control/filter (729?) boards in the 72 by removing them and adding links and this would substantially improve things further IMO, taking away yet another active stage inside the preamp..

Yes, I do remember the slagging off I gave to Avondale in the very early days - how DARE Les bodge around with my then Guru's products, but I've learned a heck of a lot since and am beginning to understand why Naim is so damned in audio-engineering circles (including the backwards polarised input/coupling caps giving them reverse bias thus shortening their life on the Naim poweramp circuit even now and also on the NCC200's apparently).

A "sorted" Naim preamp will happily drive any reasonable power amp out there quite safely. Using a-n-other's preamp with 135's isn't such a good idea IMO, as the risk of matching problems regarding bandwidth may rear their heads if the preamp is a wide bandwidth design - the Croft is pretty wide open to well over 100KHz IIRC.

Sorry mate. I don't want to come over all blinkered and insensitive as I could often be in the past. I just want you to get the best sound from your system as possible - and even 20 years ago it weren't bad at all in any shape or form, actually quite the opposite as I'd never heard old passive SBL's sound so sweet and well balanced until then, confirmed a decade later in Northampton. The passive SBL crossovers could be re-capped to definite advantage - those old electrolytics could be easily improved upon I reckon and more modern amps like the Arcam FMJ stereo model (for ss) and Glenn's Series 7R (for hybrid) may just hit the spot, believe it or not.

For the pre, Marco knows how much I love Glenn's product - and you may remember too from first time round, but I'd contemplate nothing less than a Series 25R for the standard (or higher) you require.

HiFi dave on here is the man to go and listen with. He has current Naim and is a dedicated stockist of Glenn's gear too and with no emotional baggage, unlike me where "Salisbury" is concerned.

Hope this doesn't totally confuse you - "we'll" get there in the end :)

[Gerry]

For years I mixed n' matched with a Rose RV23 pre into a Quad 606 feeding SD Acoustics SD1s which had Ribbon tweeters. These could be harsh but the valve front end smoothed it all very nicely.
IMHO a great way to go if you don't want the hassle (and expense) of valve power and need more than 60-70 watts.

Regards
Gerry

[Marco]

For the pre, Marco knows how much I love Glenn's product - and you may remember too from first time round, but I'd contemplate nothing less than a Series 25R for the standard (or higher) you require.


Indeed. I should mention that the Croft preamp I used with the 135s was a Charisma-X; a rather more upmarket model than perhaps Ron had in mind.

Reading the most recent replies, I would agree that superb results can be obtained with a valve preamp and solid-state power amp combo. I too ran a set-up like this (Croft with ECS 200W monoblocks) for a few years with pretty good success.

However, once people truly 'get' what high-quality (total) valve amplification is about, and get a taste for it, then the sonic limitations (mainly the graininess and 2-dimentionality) of 'affordable' solid-state amps (pre or power) becomes all too apparent, and the SS power amp is very quickly replaced by one with glowing bottles ;)

That's precisely what happened with me when I first of all heard a £300 30W Chinese valve amp (a Yaqin) totally outperform (in any area you care to mention) my £6k 200W ECS monoblocks, which in turn pissed all over my 135s, and is why I now use one of Anthony TD's copper valve amps, which to my ears are sonically superior to almost ANY solid-state power amps I've heard to date.

As such, I doubt I would ever go back now to a solid-state pre or power amp.

There are many genuinely high-quality valve power amps available, both single-ended and push-pull, but the problem is that seeking them out instead of finding the usual 'cosy' sounding 'pipe & slippers' mainstream monstrosities, which give the side a bad name, requires a certain level of knowledge and no small degree of lateral thinking.

Get it right, though, and you *can* have the best of BOTH worlds (providing complimentary speakers are used)!

Marco.

[John]

Like Marco I would encourage you to hear both set ups Valve pre and power plus valve pre and tranny power Just spend time listening to as many different set ups and then decide which route you wish to take

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I might know of a valve power amp quite similar Marcos thy might just be available... Although I know that really has nothing to do with the original question ... It did bury a naim nap 180 alive though :)

I use a valve pre with active solid state (obviously) speakers with results I could not be happier with!

[Marco]

Indeed, Hamish. It does help though that your amps are specifically matched to your speakers, and so the 'interface' is optimised. Ultimately, it's all about synergy, and active speakers are a different kettle of fish.

It's also all too easy getting into the mindset (based on what seems like good 'common sense') that the 'ideal' sonic combination is a valve preamp with an SS power amp.

However, once you hear what a top-notch properly designed valve power amp sounds like (when matched with the right speakers), one quickly realises the fallacy of the above notion, and that it is mainly based on a stereotypical view purported by the the hi-fi press and some users.

That's not to say that ALL valve amps are better than ALL SS amps, which is of course nonsense, but rather the results that might be imagined by putting the above notion into practice *may* turn out to be different to what was expected ;)

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

It's also all to easy getting into the mindset (based on what seems like good 'common sense') that the 'ideal' sonic combination is a valve preamp with an SS power amp.

However, once you hear what a top-notch properly designed valve amp sounds like, one quickly realises the fallacy of the above notion, and that it is based on little else other than a stereotypical view purported by the the hi-fi press and some users.

Marco.
I really think you need to compare like with like in this situation ;) 99% of all solid state amplifiers are class B or AB (even my Krell KSA250 only manages 28W RMS into 8 ohms class A) & no matter what's done with them they'll never sound "outstanding". If low feedback is used you'll get crossover distortion, if high feedback is used it'll distort less but sound emasculated to a greater extent - you simply can't win :eyebrows:

However, once you hear a top-notch properly designed solid state class A amp that doesn't need high feedback to correct the inevitable crossover distortion & see what it sounds like, you'll quickly realise that valves aren't the only way to go in the power amp department which is purported by some users :eyebrows:

:lolsign:

[John]

I would tend to agree Mark but not many solid state amps that meet those high demands and tend to be a bit costly

[Marco]

Hi Mark,

I totally agree. No way are quality valve amps the ONLY way to listen to music; I'm simply stating from my perspective that they are currently. I love big Class A SS amps, and I've heard plenty of good ones, but I'd still not swap any of them for my Copper amp.

That doesn't mean though that one day I might hear an SS amp that would change my opinion - I'll always remain open-minded! :cool:

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

I would tend to agree Mark but no many solid state amps that meet those high demands and tend to be a bit costly
As do amplifiers the kind of which Marco owns, not everyone can afford to buy a custom made amplifier ;) As i say, you must compare like with like ;)

Marco, you may well indeed chap ;) One day i might hear a valve amp that gets my juices flowing as well, it works both ways - there is no one way that is correct as you just pointed out :)

Open minds, the best way :eyebrows:

[Reid Malenfant]

Anyway, getting away from the SS/Valve debate you could try something that really might be the ticket - a hybrid like some of the power amps by Pathos :) These have tended to have excellent reviews so might be worth at least a thought ;) They have valve inputs & voltage gain stages (from what i can gather) & only the output stage is solid state..

[John]

i have nice valve amp and costs a lot less than Marco Copper amp and they do everything really well I am sure Marco amp would beat it but the SAC Glowmaster is a lovelly valve amp that does good bass and totally destroyed my Gamut D200 mk3 in every area so a few decent valve amps at realistic prices The Icon mono blocks are also pretty special

[Marco]

Hi Mark,


As do amplifiers the kind of which Marco owns, not everyone can afford to buy a custom made amplifier. As i say, you must compare like with like


Yes that's absolutely the case, and there are definitely more crap sounding valve amps around than genuinely good ones - at least ones I would consider as 'good' :)


Marco, you may well indeed chap. One day i might hear a valve amp that gets my juices flowing as well, it works both ways - there is no one way that is correct as you just pointed out.

Open minds, the best way.


Damn tootin'! :cool:

What I was getting at was that I set out with the same notion once of the 'ideal' amp combo being a valve preamp with an SS power amp, hence why I had the Croft/ECS combo for a few years, and it sounded great, but only until I heard what a really good valve power amp was capable of, which then caused me to completely re-evaluate my notion of "ideal", if you see what I mean ;)

Btw, see the edit on my earlier post. It reads somewhat differently now, and conveys the point I was trying to put across rather better! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Btw, see the edit on my earlier post. It reads somewhat differently now, and conveys the point I was trying to put across rather better! :eyebrows:

Marco.
Agreed :) There are good & bad & a lot of middle of the road in both, it's a question of finding, building or having someone build you the good stuff ;)

[Marco]

You're dead right, Mark! :)

To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have discovered what I know now about what constitutes as a genuinely top-notch valve amp if I hadn't met Glenn Croft and Anthony TD and learned from their extensive knowledge - and *crucially* going to the Owston D.I.Y fests organised by Steve Sheils on the audio talk forum, where I got to hear first hand just what is possible from non-commercial 'no compromise' designs built by some very talented people, particularly Nick G who is a quite exceptional valve amplifier designer.

I then took that experience and used it to my own system's advantage by going down the modification route myself (although not actually handling the soldering iron, as such!) I leave that to selected people I trust ;)

The fact is, commercial hi-fi designs only get one so far, as performance is ultimately governed by profit margin - it's a whole different ball game when YOU are in charge of selecting the quality of components used 'under the hood', and not company accountants dictating the 'bottom line' to a manufacturer - the former is where the real magic lies with equipment, either valve or solid-state........ That unfortunately, people, is the brutal truth!

Marco.

[JazzBones]

Ron, do you still have a 72? If so, you can substantially improve and update it -
.............


HiFi dave on here is the man to go and listen with. He has current Naim and is a dedicated stockist of Glenn's gear too and with no emotional baggage, unlike me where "Salisbury" is concerned.

Hope this doesn't totally confuse you - "we'll" get there in the end :)

Hi Dave, bit late getting back here as I have spent all day cleaning the system.still Naim :eek: with NAC72. thanks for the info on upgrading the 72, that was one alternative I was considering and probably the least expensive option..the Avondale route. You would not recognise my Linn as basically I have modded it (sub chassis/Sole..good) and the Ekos has had a complete rebuild and silver through Kondo wiring by Johnnie Nielsen of Audio Origami including arm damping and a gold plated decoupled counter weight.. if I knew how to post pics I'd show you, and all, how it looks now. Everything on the LP12 is burning in at the mo but sounds bloody beaut... my Tekko's got a hell of a battle on her hands if its going to take number one spot, it was only bought, brand new, as a TT for my second system in the cubby hole office upstairs. Will give them both time in No1 slot with the same Ekos (AOkos now) and AT OC9II and will decide which is going to be premier turntable after a lengthy listen. Bren reckons the LP12 sounds beaut so I played her some Suzanne Vega which is more to her liking than Jazz. The SBLs are really sweet, augmented by Townshend Maximum super tweeters (setting 1) and on Mana speaker platforms, they are keepers. I had my 135s and hicap fully serviced by Naim over three years ago, total bill c.£850.00p :steam::stalks:, could have bought a new amp for that kind of money!!! The Salisbury mob are a weird lot, and a few years ago I had an altercation with someone in the sales team who was completely up himself... you probably know who? Anyway, I guess I'm out of step here but I also like CDs, different but nice.

Thanks again for your advice, its like old times mate.

And to the others who have added their experience a big thank you too.

Ron
I'm a happy chappy right now.:)

[Batty]

I'm using a Copland integrated amp ECC88s in the pre amp and a SS power amp stage, been using this since 1995 and am very happy with it.

[JazzBones]

Thanks to all for their advice and input. Another option might be to go for a good valve INTERGRATED jobby with a bit of puff as apposed to only huff.. what say all? It would certainly reduce the box count, I'm sure the buggers breed when I'm asleep?:sofa:

Ron

[markf]

I'm sure a valve pre-amp will be fine with your NAP135s, not sure what DSJR is banging on about
(think he uses a Croft with a pair of Crown monos to good effect).

If you only change one thing ( the pre amp ) it will give you a good idea of how the valve pre compares
to what you have now, give you a chance to judge for yourself.

If you do try it, just keep an eye on the power amps, if they get unusually hot or if the fans operate more
than usual that might be a sign that the power amp is misbehaving, but I don’t expect any problems.

I've often though that a Hovland HP-100 would be a good valve pre-amp to try with a quality solid state power amp.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

It's this naim-with-other-kit thing dave is banging on about when I tried my nac82 with valve power amp it didn't work ... The bass sounded all bloated ... I know it's the other way round but when it happened loads of people commented "yeah that's because it's because your trying to make name kit work with other kit" ... Dave was one of those people and he was spot on...

[JazzBones]

Thanks guys for your input. The only prob with Naim gear is that they use different lead connections, ie: DIN plus BNC which makes it damn difficult to just slot in another make for an easy comparison. I think the only other make that were difficult were NVA with their use of 'sound pipes' connections? Many years ago I complained to Julian Vereker (founder of Naim) at a function sponsored by Studio 99, London, that their (Naim) banana speaker inputs always eased themselves out of the amps due to the extremely non flexiability of NA5 and that I had substituted Arcam gold plated plugs, the look and reaction to my statement was as if I had done a hand stand and farted in his face:rolleyes:. The Arcam banana plugs are still in use today and, sadly, Julian is long gone to a place where they may dispute his mantra..who knows? Also, there was no degredation in performance that my ears could detect!

By the way is Richard Dunn/NVA still around? He use to produce a good sound with his amps etc at the Heathrow shows... Maybe if he's around he might have a top of the audio tree intergrated?

Ron

[Marco]

Hi Hamish,


It's this naim-with-other-kit thing dave is banging on about when I tried my nac82 with valve power amp it didn't work ... The bass sounded all bloated ... I know it's the other way round but when it happened loads of people commented "yeah that's because it's because your trying to make name kit work with other kit" ... Dave was one of those people and he was spot on...

Like I said before, there wasn't a problem when I once used my Croft preamp with my (then) Naim NAP135 monoblocks - the combo sounded superb!

Maybe it's different doing it the opposite way round by using a Naim preamp with a valve power amp.....?

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Thanks guys for your input. The only prob with Naim gear is that they use different lead connections, ie: DIN plus BNC which makes it damn difficult to just slot in another make for an easy comparison. I think the only other make that were difficult were NVA with their use of 'sound pipes' connections? Many years ago I complained to Julian Vereker (founder of Naim) at a function sponsored by Studio 99, London, that their (Naim) banana speaker inputs always eased themselves out of the amps due to the extremely non flexiability of NA5 and that I had substituted Arcam gold plated plugs, the look and reaction to my statement was as if I had done a hand stand and farted in his face:rolleyes:. The Arcam banana plugs are still in use today and, sadly, Julian is long gone to a place where they may dispute his mantra..who knows? Also, there was no degredation in performance that my ears could detect!

By the way is Richard Dunn/NVA still around? He use to produce a good sound with his amps etc at the Heathrow shows... Maybe if he's around he might have a top of the audio tree intergrated?

Ron

Yes Richard is still around. He sells on ebay now, so just do.a search for NVA.

[JazzBones]

Since my first posting on the subject of valve pre 'n ' SS power I thought I owed it to myself to try out an Avondale mod on my NAC72 as Les W has been working on Naim amps/PSU since before my hair turned grey and I grew a beard. So prior to a valve preamp try out (those Crofts do look good) I have ordered the 821A modules, skipping the 821. Okay I know this means more money but Les does have a 60 days try out facility and you can't ask fairer than that? I'm looking forward to delivery but not switching off the Naims (powered = 24/7/365) and taking apart the amp as the input/outputs aren't easy to get to being shoe horned into an alcove. I do suffer for this hobby of ours :(

After amp settling in period I will let interested members know my findings. I haven't shelved the idea of a valve pre but will re-valuate the idea of the mix after a few hours absolute listening.

Anyone else using 821A's? By the way what are the alternative modules out there and are they better than Avondale's?


Ron

[DSJR]

Once again, my typing doesn't explain the emotions and, hopefully, knowledge behind it...

The ancient Naim 12S preamp sounded great into Beard and EAR 509 amps back in the day, so doing it this way is safe IMO...

The issue as I understand it, and I'm not being malicious or hyper-critical here, is the even more ancient circuit design that Naim use/still use I think. The preamp driving their power amps has to be crippled in frequency response (and therefore phase response on many of them) so that the signal feeding the power amps isn't too "fast," which would cause summat called "slew-rate-limiting." Now, this latter may not be an issue at all, but it has stood as a recommendation not to use modern super-wide range preamps with old valve power amps, although the AVI MP+P seemed happy with the Crofted Quad II's I use. The thing is, old Naim power amps are run *almost* to the point of ringing, using the A5 speaker cable to "finish" the circuit and without the over-stability of a Zobel network on the output as "everyone else" does except NVA...

I'm sorry I can't make the above paragraph clearer. Hopefully Les W himself or Mr Malenfant will expand on this and put me right. I'm just worried that a twenty five year old pair of 135's run 24/7 and which are probably almost knackered now and in dire need of a tune-up (unless you've had 'em re-capped recently Ron) may not like a wide-bandwidth preamp feeding them.

I'm trying to guide an old mate here, not slag off his choice of amps. The 135's were by far the best of the old school stuff and if running right may be fine with alternative preamps feeding them. A Croft "R" would be lovely I think.


P.S. Ron, have you looked at the SBL crossovers? HERE is where you could make a large improvement, as Naim wanted SBL users to go active with them and only used basic electrolytic caps in the passive crossovers as I recall.......

Good luck with the 821A boards.

[Barry]

Put simply, all electronics in the play-back chain should be such that items following one another should have increasingly wider bandwidths, and hence be faster. for example the power amp ought to have a wider response than the pre-amp, which in turn has a wider response than the CD player.

That way, one ought not run into the problem of 'slew rate limiting'.

Regards

[JazzBones]

From, DSJR.................

. I'm just worried that a twenty five year old pair of 135's run 24/7 and which are probably almost knackered now and in dire need of a tune-up (unless you've had 'em re-capped recently Ron) may not like a wide-bandwidth preamp feeding them.

I'm trying to guide an old mate here, not slag off his choice of amps. The 135's were by far the best of the old school stuff and if running right may be fine with alternative preamps feeding them. A Croft "R" would be lovely I think.


P.S. Ron, have you looked at the SBL crossovers? HERE is where you could make a large improvement, as Naim wanted SBL users to go active with them and only used basic electrolytic caps in the passive crossovers as I recall.......

Good luck with the 821A boards.[/QUOTE]



Dave, I had the 135s fully serviced at Naim/Salisbury just over three years ago, took them down personally and also collected them, cost a big bundle of notes too.:eek: The HiCap was done at the same time so hopeful that everything will be stable?

I have a spare, unused SBL cross over in the loft so maytbe I could experiment with this?

I appreciate your help Dave, its just that I've had most of my gear for so long, its a known quantity and I sit comfortably with it although it is a hate product for others and I am aware that there people out there who will jump on the band wagon of vilifying a product such as Naim and Linn but it was really mags like the Flat Response who are to blame by stating all else was donkey shit. Remember the statement that a basic Linn MM of the time absolutely thrashed a Koetsu Black, yeah, like hell it did!!!!?

It cost money to dump what you have and buy new and maybe down the road one might not like the new? Pages and forums are full of people saying, 'I wish I hadn't sold my.....'. Also, look at peeps going retro into yesteryear gear, makes ya fink do it not?

Have not abandoned the idea of a Croft, just seeing or hearing what others have done to their 72s.

Thanks for your advice and help mate, much appreciated:)

Ron

[Barry]

From, DSJR.................

. I'm just worried that a twenty five year old pair of 135's run 24/7 and which are probably almost knackered now and in dire need of a tune-up (unless you've had 'em re-capped recently Ron) may not like a wide-bandwidth preamp feeding them.

I'm trying to guide an old mate here, not slag off his choice of amps. The 135's were by far the best of the old school stuff and if running right may be fine with alternative preamps feeding them. A Croft "R" would be lovely I think.


P.S. Ron, have you looked at the SBL crossovers? HERE is where you could make a large improvement, as Naim wanted SBL users to go active with them and only used basic electrolytic caps in the passive crossovers as I recall.......

Good luck with the 821A boards.




Dave, I had the 135s fully serviced at Naim/Salisbury just over three years ago, took them down personally and also collected them, cost a big bundle of notes too.:eek: The HiCap was done at the same time so hopeful that everything will be stable?

I have a spare, unused SBL cross over in the loft so maytbe I could experiment with this?

I appreciate your help Dave, its just that I've had most of my gear for so long, its a known quantity and I sit comfortably with it although it is a hate product for others and I am aware that there people out there who will jump on the band wagon of vilifying a product such as Naim and Linn but it was really mags like the Flat Response who are to blame by stating all else was donkey shit. Remember the statement that a basic Linn MM of the time absolutely thrashed a Koetsu Black, yeah, like hell it did!!!!?
It cost money to dump what you have and buy new and maybe down the road one might not like the new? Pages and forums are full of people saying, 'I wish I hadn't sold my.....'. Also, look at peeps going retro into yesteryear gear, makes ya fink do it not?

Have not abandoned the idea of a Croft, just seeing or hearing what others have done to their 72s.

Thanks for your advice and help mate, much appreciated:)

Ron


Oh yes, we remember that scurrilous rag. The editor had his head so firmly up the arses of both Linn and Naim (and that takes some doing) he certainly couldn't see the light, nor think objectively. The most nauseating and sycophantic ravings from a hopeless Linn - Naim groupie I have ever read. The editor of the Flat Response seems to have disappeared and hasn't been heard of for some time. Fortunately audio magazines these days are much better balanced in their reviews.

Regarding your NAP135s Ron, I would certainly keep them. I think you are wise to wait and see what others have done to their NAC72s before you take the plunge and buy a Croft. I would say, however, that I have heard Marco's Croft preamp, and if Marco found a distinct improvement in running the Croft into his 135s of the time, I would place a lot of credence in that observation.

Regards

[The Grand Wazoo]

Yes - it was a £16 Linn Basik that was compared to the Koetsu. That review actually made me want to hear a Koetsu & I'm now on my 3rd one!
He also thought the NAD 3020 was far better than an ARC SP8............

I always wondered what a pair of 135's would be like when combined in a bi-amped configuration with a sweet valve amp ...........

[Marco]

Hahaha... Linn Basiks outperforming Koetsus - what a laugh! :lol:

I guess it complimented the bollocks perpetrated from the same era of Rega P2 T/Ts doing the same thing to Goldmunds!!

How on earth did people fall for that sort of pish? Talk about gullible! :mental:


I would say, however, that I have heard Marco's Croft preamp, and if Marco found a distinct improvement in running the Croft into his 135s of the time, I would place a lot of creedence in that observation.


Why thank you, sir. It did work rather well, although my benchmark in those days for what was considered as excellent is somewhat different to now.

Marco.

P.S You may wish to remove the superfluous 'e', above, in 'credence' ;)

[Spectral Morn]

Anyway, getting away from the SS/Valve debate you could try something that really might be the ticket - a hybrid like some of the power amps by Pathos :) These have tended to have excellent reviews so might be worth at least a thought ;) They have valve inputs & voltage gain stages (from what i can gather) & only the output stage is solid state..

If you can pick up a Pathos Twin Towers integrated (S/H) it is the cheapest Inpol2 design on their product roster but you must match speakers to it as you would a single ended triode valve amplifier. It says 35 watts Class A but it really needs to be treated as 5 watts....so speakers must be 90 DB+. Get it right though and it is amazing. I never could which is why I didn't buy one. The Pathos Classic one mk Two (ignore Mk1 and Mk3 which are not as good imho) is worth looking at too but its not a Twin Towers or TT Reference as Pathos call it now. A new one is made to order for the customer. You need a strong table for it as it weighs about 28kgs....ever wonder what lifting a crushed car might be like :eek:

One other option is a good solid state pre and a valve power amplifier. I have played around with this type of combination and it can work very well...as long as the input and output impedances match okay..mismatches are possible when trying to put kit together like this.

I agree with Mark about Class A solid state this can be very nice indeed.



Regards D S D L

[DSJR]

Quick note..

Ron, glad you've had the amp "system" overhauled in recent years. Did it sound better than ever afterwards as usually happens?

I'm kicking convention here, but i don't think you need to keep the amp on all the time now. I found an hour or so is all a well matured set like yours needs from cold, as all the caps will have formed properly by now and the voltage re-sets your amps have had shouldn't drift now after all this time. Why not give it a try and if it doesn't do as suggested, just don't turn 'em off again ;)

[anthonyTD]

hi all,
hybrid amps can be made to work very well if you use each topology for what its good at.

I chose to use solid state front end and valve output in the soul power amps, i did this to prove that you can get single ended to work ie, have bass, mid range, and top end! usualy with single ended its that mid range that gets you and you almost forgive them for what they dont do. However the soul amps [even the 15 watt version] had a flat frequency response from 7hz to well over 120khz.and would therefore drive real world speaker loads! To get these kind of figures from single ended valve output stages you have to control all parameters of the valve very tightly and also you have to be able to drive it consistently at all frequencies.
when you compare the figures acheived with this type of arangement to those of a typical conventional single ended circuit ie; 50hz to around 18khz then it can be seen that when solid state and valve circuitry are used in conjunction to gain the best from each other then pretty much anything is posible.
Anthony,TD...

[JazzBones]

Quick note..

Ron, glad you've had the amp "system" overhauled in recent years. Did it sound better than ever afterwards as usually happens?

I'm kicking convention here, but i don't think you need to keep the amp on all the time now. I found an hour or so is all a well matured set like yours needs from cold, as all the caps will have formed properly by now and the voltage re-sets your amps have had shouldn't drift now after all this time. Why not give it a try and if it doesn't do as suggested, just don't turn 'em off again ;)

First off DaveO, sorry about the lousy Germanic accent, the devil made me do it:eyebrows:

I was thinking that when/if I get the Croft I will have to switch the 135s off because a valvey can't be left on 7/24 or can it? My sequence of firing up the Naims has always been pre-amp first, wait awhile, any Naim sources such as CD or tuner, and then last of all fire up the power amps. To power down I do the opposite and this proceedure has been with me ever since my first pre and power. The amps did indeed sound better and progressed to better still after a few days of the innards bedding in.

I was drooling over Glen's pre's today, I do like the clean, no nonsense industrial look for amps, they always come into their own once placed in an oak equipment rack me thinks. I don't know if your memory can kick back that far but I remember Kevin, the ex copper, who had a Croft + Quad IIs and ESL57s, that gave out some serious good music repro?

Everybody else who has come up with advice from their experience a big thank you, I was warned that this was a helpful place to be and so it has proved to be.

Cheers all
Ron

[worrasf]

I have been down this path. I used a Croft Vitale with a NAIM 250 and also a Chord SPM 800 - all worked fine together but IMHO nowhere near the synergy as when I partnered it with a Croft Series 4s. I now use a Croft 25R preamp into the 4s and am very happy :)

Steve

[JazzBones]

I have been down this path. I used a Croft Vitale with a NAIM 250 and also a Chord SPM 800 - all worked fine together but IMHO nowhere near the synergy as when I partnered it with a Croft Series 4s. I now use a Croft 25R preamp into the 4s and am very happy :)

Steve

Thanks Steve, I'm beginning to realise that a valve (Croft) will work with a Naim power amp. Up until recently I was unable to get a clear yes or no but the experiences of yourself and others has confirmed that it can be done and works well. I have no doubt that Croft pre and power would work very well as the two were made for each other to start with. Looks like the Croft comes first and eventually it is reunited with a Croft power amp, can't beat that logic:)

Ron

[DSJR]

First off DaveO, sorry about the lousy Germanic accent, the devil made me do it:eyebrows:

I don't know if your memory can kick back that far but I remember Kevin, the ex copper, who had a Croft + Quad IIs and ESL57s, that gave out some serious good music repro?

Everybody else who has come up with advice from their experience a big thank you, I was warned that this was a helpful place to be and so it has proved to be.

Cheers all
Ron

I'm now the custodian of "Kevan's Quads." I won't say owner as he passed them into my care on condition that I would never sell them. After more than ten years in storage and a replacement valve, they're working beautifully :)

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/43efb26a.jpg

TBH, the Crowns are rather better overall, but I just love the warm glow inside and outside the Quads give me ;)

My Croft pre, bodged under Glenn's guidance by moi, which is the predecessor of the current "R" model..

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Croft4PPrecap1.jpg

[JazzBones]

G'day again Dave,
Didn't think Kev would ever part with the Quads, has he gone into MP3s now or does he use a modded ex -police walky talky? I remember Mark I... having a Garrard 301 and Leak 12s (?)... what 'appened to those? Sorry folks for the DSJR and JazzBone show but I'm catching up with an old mate whose profession and lively hood was in quality audio reproduction.

Question and guidance required now: How would you suggest I connect a Croft pre to my Naim 135s (CB) and will a PSU such as the HiCap still be required to be in circuit? What brand/ make-up of lead would be best suited? Needless to say Salisbury won't give me info on this so I'm not going to bother on that one! Does the Croft have provision for vinyl and cassette input, does MC/MM need an outboard phono stage? Marco has given me his advice on pre to power linking already and has actually been through the process himself, thanks Marco.

I should be getting my 821As from Avondale this Tuesday/Wednesday, should be interesting... who is Ben at Avondale by the way?

Do you still drink Groeling beer, yuk:pub:

Ron

[DSJR]

I barely drink at all these days Ron. A beer or two at weekends or the odd bottle of wine is all..

Since I left S82 in 1998, I've had little to no contact with any of 'em, although I've resumed contact with a couple of the other full time staff members (MI and AK). Amazing how many industry people are your best friends when they think you can be of use to them and then drop you abruptly off their radar the minute you're not...

Regarding interconnects - Marco suggested Flashback Sales, who have a good expertise regarding all things related to connecting Naims to each other and to other things. They sell online at "trade" prices, so saving you the 300% markup that dealers can make on wires. They can do you a pair of 4-pin-DIN to phono leads, wired for Naim and I doubt it'll cost you much over thirty quid all in. You'll need to keep a power supply and Avondale also make a modded regulator part that is easy to fit in replacement inside a HiCap. See how you feel about the 821's after a few days and then look again at their site ;)

[JazzBones]

Ron, do you still have a 72? If so, you can substantially improve and update it - to make it more neutral and universal - with Avondale 821 cards. Substitution of the 135's for something else would also enable you to dispense with the tone control/filter (729?) boards in the 72 by removing them and adding links and this would substantially improve things further IMO, taking away yet another active stage inside the preamp..

Yes, I do remember the slagging off I gave to Avondale in the very early days - how DARE Les bodge around with my then Guru's products, but I've learned a heck of a lot since and am beginning to understand why Naim is so damned in audio-engineering circles (including the backwards polarised input/coupling caps givi as possible - and even 20 years ago it weren't bad at all in any shape or form, actually quite the opposite as I'd never heard old passive SBL's sound so sweet and well balanced until then, confirmed a decade later in Northampton. The passive SBL crossovers could be re-capped to definite advantage - those old electrolytics could be easily improved upon I reckon and more modern amps like the Arcam FMJ stereo model (for ss) and Glenn's Series 7R (for hybrid) may just hit the spot, believe it or not.

For the pre, Marco knows how much I love Glenn's product - and you may remember too from first time round, but I'd contemplate nothing less than a Series 25R for the standard (or higher) you require.

HiFi dave on here is the man to go and listen with. He has current Naim and is a dedicated stockist of Glenn's gear too and with no emotional baggage, unlike me where "Salisbury" is concerned.

Hope this doesn't totally confuse you - "we'll" get there in the end :)

Its been well over a month since I first started this thread and this is the situation at the present. I have gone for the Avondale 821A (audiophile grade) boards, replacing the Naim 321. I have removed the Naim 729 boards and inserted the wire links provided by Avondale. I also took the opportunity whilst the NAC72 was undergoing open heart surgery to disconnect and then reconnect all the daughter boards thus cleaning the prong and socket connections. I also made sure that everything was securely connected... all this activity took about 10 to 15 minutes:) It took alot more time disconnecting Naim DIN and BNC leads etc, a job I detest as my equipment is shoe horned into an alcove and does not have easy access. To make sure that I am listening only within the Naim frame work (no pun) only sources used are my CDX2/XPS2 and my NAT01/NAPST (Ron Smith ariel). First thing noticed (on cd) was that my listening comfort level had gone from 9 0'clock to nearer 12 O'clock on the NAC72, further for the tuner. Avondale did say that a wider use of the dial could be used? Initial reaction was, 'humm, I like this but has alot changed and do I like that change'. Answer: the change was subtle and I did like it but it was NOT a gee wizz wow I like this type of conclusion. Not worried about this as Avondale have a 60 days return policy.
After a week of day long play, cd on repeat I am now saying to myself, 'I really like this and the Avondale boards are staying'. Looking at Avondale 821A and Naim 321 boards side by side the workmanship and components used by the former make the latter 321 look very basic. I'm really enjoying what I hear now and the new boards are staying..... now I must look to see what Avondale can do for my old HiCap power supply (serviced by Naim three years ago)?

[JazzBones]

Avondale say it takes about 60 days of running in, can't wait. Sorry about plugging a trade member as such but good things must be given their accord.

Ron:)

[JazzBones]

Avondale say it takes about 60 days of running in, can't wait. Sorry about plugging a trade member as such but good things must be given their accord.

Ron:)

I should have said 60 HOURS not days... el stupido, no?

[SteveW]

Just to add... come upstairs from working whilst tapping my toes to a couple of clones in a second office system.
Swampy's Kondo valve pre clone, and Duncan's (Tubehunter) Avondale Naim 135's two in a box clone
Sounds absolutely great. The pre has a bit too much gain and would probably suit a single ended valve really, but doesn't worry me too much. Might even play around with some attenuators.
The two together work wonderfully, with loads of detail and bags of punch.

[DSJR]

Well done Ron. No offense whatever to Messrs Pardo and Jadman, but I do respect very much what Les is able to do (although I'm told that the NCC200 boards still feature two caps the wrong way round...). The HiCap will be similarly tamed by his mods I promise you. The only issue with his 821's could be the gain on tuner and phono, but 2 o'clock for both these and 11 o'clock for CD isn't a bad compromise I reckon (maybe Naim could have looked at modern transistors and re-designed their phono boards for lower noise and greater gain, but they didn't).

Ron, do you still have a cassette deck plumbed in? If not now, there are other buffer boards in the 72 that can be removed as all they're doing is sapping a tiny amount from the supply.

[JazzBones]

Thanks for past and present advice DaveO, CD replay can now be taken to 9 or 10 O'clock, tuner from 12 - 2 O'clock, the old 321 would have taken mirrors and pictures plus plaster off the walls at that level :rolleyes: I still have my Nak 7CE but it needs a long overdue overhall so have not tried the tape input... incidentally I have my cd inputted into the 72's tuner input via Naim's Highline interconnect. As for TT duties both my Tekko and LP12 are on the 'service bench' as it where. I don't know whether to use my Jelco 750D or my AO rewired Ekos 1 on the DD turntable, I also have an unmodded Ittok II black I could try but I don't want to drill holes in the Tekko for the arm rest for the Ittok!

As an aside, I'm not totally convinced by the Naim Highline interconnect, and suggestions on this one, anybody???

Thanks:)

Ron

[DSJR]

Have you "massaged" the Hi-Line? Such is the religious rubbish spouted, a massaged Hi-Line makes as big a difference as changing your speakers :mental: Still, the construction may be affected of the conductors bind internally..

I still rate van damme wires as excellent for audio and this one is fine for your better half to solder into a couple of DIN plugs for you... -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Van-damme-Blue-Series-Studio-2-pair-Multicore-per-metre-/350370220500?pt=UK_Consumer_Professional_RL&hash=item5193b149d4

Use the drains at one end only..

[JazzBones]

Have you "massaged" the Hi-Line? Such is the religious rubbish spouted, a massaged Hi-Line makes as big a difference as changing your speakers :mental: Still, the construction may be affected of the conductors bind internally..

I still rate van damme wires as excellent for audio and this one is fine for your better half to solder into a couple of DIN plugs for you... -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Van-damme-Blue-Series-Studio-2-pair-Multicore-per-metre-/350370220500?pt=UK_Consumer_Professional_RL&hash=item5193b149d4

Use the drains at one end only..

Nah Dave, I draw the line on wankin' a wire no matter how good the outcome... besides, it could put hairs on the palm of me hands :lol: If the Van Damme wire is any good I will look to having CDX2 output as per Din connection and the NAC72 BNC connection if this is poss? Can Van Damme be bought off the reel and how much per metre? Which end would the drain connection be made?

Thanks again for the info mate.

Ron :santa:

[DSJR]

The link takes you to the ebay page and it's around £3.50 per metre. I'm open to correction, but I use the coloured wires of each pair as positive, the white conductors of each pair as return and the drain wires connected at source (twisted together neatly inside the DIN plug). The phono end I strip the outer jacket back a few inches and use a combination of heat-shrinks, one on each channel and a sticky larger one where the outer jacket is cut back to lock it all in place. The BNC's may need some improvisation, as I've only used Neutrik/Rean phono plugs, but I'm sure herself could do summat for you. This wire doesn't seem overly directional either and soon settles down once soldered up and in use. I've also used their twin "shotgun" screened cables and these are good too, sounding "quietly confident" to me -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Van-Damme-LC-OFC-Hi-Fi-Signal-Interconnect-Cable-/380275560270?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item588a308f4e