View Full Version : My new Nick Gorham Phono Stage
The Black Adder
25-10-2010, 13:23
Hello all.
Well, my new phono stage arrived on Sunday afternoon with the very nice Nick Gorham. I have to say, it's an absolutey superb job.
The sound is absolutly superb, fantastic sound stage... what a job man!
First time hooked up to my refurbished Schopper TD 124 MKII deck and my new/old Radford amp set up... for the last few months I've been without my vinyl. Cold Turkey.... had got me.... on the run! Ow!
:)
Here are the pics:-
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04151.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04153.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04155.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04156.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04161.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04165.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04167.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04168.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04170.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04171.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04175.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Nick%20Gorham/ResizeofDSC04188.jpg
Cheers for the pic's. Yep, I am very happy how it turned out, its partly the stage Marco (and co) heard at Owston, but split out as a standalone stage, with an active loaded follower on the end. JFET cascode with ECC88 at front, ECC88 second stage, CCS loaded 5687 output driver. Power supply is cap. choke, cap, then split to two chans of CCS loaded gas regulators (0A2). Single stage RIAA using selected caps and resistors (buy a big bag then use the LCR meter to match to within 0.1%), do the same with the JFET at the front. Overall gain 62dB, overload at 42v RMS output (not clipping, but starting to limit) so lots of headroom. I was rather sad that Joe was so keen to get it as I was enjoying listening to it at home. I need to build myself one now :-). The casework is by Modushop, I think I might make the next one using the all ali case with machining and lettering on the front and back, but I think the plain front has something going for it. Joe, I think when you get a better match between the amp and speakers you will find the extra octave of bass thats in there as well you will be even happier :-)
The Black Adder
25-10-2010, 14:05
Looking in to that right now matey... Still, I put Roxy Music on last night and I was stunned. I like sez I.
Reid Malenfant
25-10-2010, 15:18
Now what are the chances of that :scratch: Joe, not only do you have a phono stage in a case that's identical (but deeper front to back) than the one i'll be using for a phono stage, but the thing has the same switch that i purchased for mine from Hong Kong :eyebrows:
Looks neat, i'll be using rechargeable batteries & solid state components though. Mains will go off when the phono stage comes on ;)
I must say i do like the case, nice to see one in one piece :doh:
That unit looks amazing. Well done to the maker :)
Lovelly work in the furture I hope to get Nick to make me one too ....funds permitting
Ali Tait
25-10-2010, 16:16
Lovely job! and if I know Nick it sounds even better than it looks..
Lovely job! and if I know Nick it sounds even better than it looks..
Cheers all. I wasnt joking Ali when I said I needed to build myself one. Ok, it doesn't do that magic thing a LCR stage can do (but neither is it 3k and years of twiddling), but bullshit aside, its got me wondering if I had actually heard what a 103R can do before hearing that stage through this balanced pre I have at the moment. Normally we hear low output moving coils through a SS stage or a valve with stepups. Without starting a war, SS units are not for everyone, but the combination of valve with just the single JFET might just be a good compromise.
Reid Malenfant
25-10-2010, 17:00
Hi Nick, have you ever considered using SUT but with a balanced input & using the output to go into a single ended stage. Balanced to unbalaced?
Obviously the balanced input would need a bit of re-wiring in the record deck where the tonearm cable wires to the stereo single ended cables. There are huge advantages though regarding hum & noise by going balanced at these kind of voltages ;)
I'm sure you know this for yourself, i just wondered if you'd ever considered the above :scratch:
By the way, nice job, apologies for not mentioning this earlier.
I must confess I haven't tried it, but I agree, its a no brainer with an inherently balanced source like a cartridge, The main reason I have not tried it is because of all the swapping and changing that goes on here. If I had a nice stable system in a nice stable living room I would have certainly tried it :-).
Ali Tait
25-10-2010, 17:53
Cheers all. I wasnt joking Ali when I said I needed to build myself one. Ok, it doesn't do that magic thing a LCR stage can do (but neither is it 3k and years of twiddling), but bullshit aside, its got me wondering if I had actually heard what a 103R can do before hearing that stage through this balanced pre I have at the moment. Normally we hear low output moving coils through a SS stage or a valve with stepups. Without starting a war, SS units are not for everyone, but the combination of valve with just the single JFET might just be a good compromise.
Will the pre be going to eggy?
Will the pre be going to eggy?
I hope so yes.
Ali Tait
25-10-2010, 18:17
Good stuff,look forward to hearing it.
Canetoad
25-10-2010, 19:04
Ali, Eggy??
Ali Tait
25-10-2010, 19:27
Our diy get-together,this year at Eggborough power statiion social club.
pure sound
25-10-2010, 20:04
looks very nicely done even down to the power switch! fine work.
Ammonite Audio
26-10-2010, 05:33
...........Without starting a war, SS units are not for everyone, but the combination of valve with just the single JFET might just be a good compromise.
Paul Hynes may have to correct me here, but I think that the phono amp that he's making for me has this sort of topology.
Paul Hynes
26-10-2010, 11:10
Hi Shuggie,
My older designs used a low noise fet (originally 2SK147 then 2SK170 when the 2SK147 became obsolete) with a cascode military 6922 for the input stage. I agree with Nick, it is a good compromise, as this hybrid stage can be set up for high gain, with a noise level low enough for MC cartridges, at a reasonable cost level as no additional power supplies are required to power the FET. Sonics are good too, but I still prefer valve all the way through in the voltage gain stages. Unfortunately the cost goes up with an additional valve head amplifier and it’s associated power supply system for MC cartridges, as you need four parallel low noise valves to get the noise level down for an MC input. However, connecting the MC cartridge to a valve triode input device just sounds more natural musically and dynamically to me, so I live with the cost.
I think you may have forgotten the discussion we had about this initially, but the preamp I am preparing for you is in fact two preamps. The first, which should be on the way to you this week, is a two-stage, passive RIAA, MM preamp with just over 40 dB of gain. This is suitable for all MM and high output MC cartridges. The two voltage gain stages use current source loaded triodes. The second is the MC valve head amplifier with four parallel current source loaded valves giving 30 dB of gain but this additional preamp will not be ready until after New Year.
Regards
Paul
Yep, the best sound I have got was by using two parallel E810F valves at the front, but they are not that easy to get hold of now, tend to be somewhat microphonic and prone to oscillate in their box. Power supplies become problematic (both heater and B+). You can use ECC88 types if you parallel enough, but then you face the matching problems (though CCS in each anode as Paul said helps there, but again complexity grows like topsy), and it just takes one noisy triode to wreck the result. 6C44Pi has the gm and low noise to do a good job but the need for high current low noise anode loads add further to the problem. The JFET gives 95% of the sound at 5% of the cost, and the single SS device avoids wrapping many more solid state devices around the valves in the support roles. This stage was aimed at making a practical design, folk who know me know of some of the insane things that have been tried between cartridge and speakers :-)
Phono stages are a fun problem to solve, it would be good to have a comparison some time, there are a lot of folk out there doing interesting things in the area.
Please excuse my ignorance, but valve radios have to amplify significantly lower signals than that of a low output moving coil cartridge don't they? Could any of this technology be applied for high gain and low noise?
Please excuse my ignorance, but valve radios have to amplify significantly lower signals than that of a low output moving coil cartridge don't they? Could any of this technology be applied for high gain and low noise?
The peak of wide band valve noise figures was produced by the telecoms industry for repeaters and the like, valves like the E810F and D3a, EC8020 and WE437. But the key that addresses your question is the wide band bit. Radio receivers have (or at least had) a high Q tuned circuit at the front that increases the sensitivity many times, and increased the voltage the following stages had to deal with by orders of magnitude. Low noise design gets a lot simpler if you don't have to cover 10 octaves of signal.
Just to add also, the voltages are not that different either. Simply (and not entirely accurate) If you have a 350uV cartridge and would like 60dB of signal above the noise, thats down to 350nV, so about the sensitivity of a typical short ware receiver. A typical FM tuner sensitivity will be in the 3uV and maybe 20uv For stereo quieting.
Paul Hynes
26-10-2010, 12:37
Hi Nick,
It’s good to meet another phono stage enthusiast. Looks like you have done much fettling in your time and have a wide experience with different valves and their use. As you point out one of the biggest issues with optimising valves for MC use is finding suitable valves that are readily available. Setting up the support circuitry is do-able but can be complex. For me it is worth it. I still do the cascode input circuit preamps where budget is limited, as the performance is very good for the cost, and it is relatively simple and easy to make. I’m not sure I would agree with your percentages though, as there is so much that can be done with topology and power supplies that can affect the overall outcome.
Because I design for others in the industry I have to look for solutions using readily available components, and if valves are in the design this usually means current production valves, so it is rather limiting in this respect. It does tend to stimulate the grey matter to look at valve optimisation techniques and power supply issues more than valve types. I have tried a fair number of valve types over the years for personal projects and it is great when a valve turns out to be exceptional for a given function, but because of availability problems I have not moved these particular designs into commercial use.
It would be nice to see more high performance current production valve options available at a reasonable price. Sadly this relies on economics so it looks like we are stuck with mainstream valve types.
Regards
Paul
Yep, I think the production of high gm valves is pretty much a dead art, at least in the west. So the only way to get the same effect is to parallel a bunch, then miller starts to be a problem (though not at audio with the source impedance of MC carts). Its all fun :-)
Ali Tait
26-10-2010, 17:22
Yep, the best sound I have got was by using two parallel E810F valves at the front, but they are not that easy to get hold of now, tend to be somewhat microphonic and prone to oscillate in their box. Power supplies become problematic (both heater and B+). You can use ECC88 types if you parallel enough, but then you face the matching problems (though CCS in each anode as Paul said helps there, but again complexity grows like topsy), and it just takes one noisy triode to wreck the result. 6C44Pi has the gm and low noise to do a good job but the need for high current low noise anode loads add further to the problem. The JFET gives 95% of the sound at 5% of the cost, and the single SS device avoids wrapping many more solid state devices around the valves in the support roles. This stage was aimed at making a practical design, folk who know me know of some of the insane things that have been tried between cartridge and speakers :-)
Phono stages are a fun problem to solve, it would be good to have a comparison some time, there are a lot of folk out there doing interesting things in the area.
Insane? Some of them weren't that sensible! :lol:
Paul Hynes
26-10-2010, 17:50
Can't be as whacky as Ali's in-car, or should that be out-car horn sub-woofer.
Regards
Paul
Maybe not, but I tried. The 150th SET did its best.
Ali Tait
26-10-2010, 19:18
Paul,visit Audio-Talk and check out some of the photos of our past diy meets.
Very, very nice indeed - how much is one of those though (with a black faceplate).
Ali Tait
26-10-2010, 21:27
I'd guess a fair bit less than his LCR stage, though that is very good indeed!
Very, very nice indeed - how much is one of those though (with a black faceplate).
(this is where I start shuffling and kicking tires).
I have been wondering what the answer to that very question is since first hearing the one I just built, and based on the time it takes to build one, and comparing the results to some very expensive commercial stages I have had across the bench (and seen inside them) I have come to the figure of £850 + delivery, thats with fully ali casework, all valves and machined and lettered front and rear panel, the box makers (modushop) can do either black or silver fronts.
And what have you compared it with Nick, and how did it compare?
(I assume those are loading plugs shown on the back?)
That particular one, very little directly, mostly its against the remembered sounds of things like a upgraded Lector stage (I have one in for repair), and a Modwrite that I had here some time ago. Mainly I am comparing it against what I and what others have built in the past. A similar circuit compared well against Marcos Croft + assorted mods, (I don't know just what was done to it, I am sure Marco can comment). So in terms of what does it sound like, its bugger all use. Its new owner may get some more opinions later. My current plan is to build myself one which I can keep hold of for more than a week (I had plans of spending this week listening to it, but its owner was too keen :-)) Hopefully mine can be used as a demo unit if anyone is interested or just curious.
And yes, those are for loading the cart.
Ali Tait
27-10-2010, 07:30
For those that don't know Nick, he's extremely modest about his creations. He'll say he's built such and such, and say it sounds "Allright" which means it sounds great. If he says it sounds "Quite good" then you know you are in for a treat. Nick's stuff deserves a much wider audience than it gets imho.
Cheques in the post Ali :-)
The main reason I find it hard to make meaningful comparisons to a lot of commercial boxes (especially phono stages) is that on the whole compared to some of the DIY creations of folk like Will and all the audio talk crew who are not on here they are decidedly average. (I don't include the Croft kit in that, as IMHO, they are basically DIY done by GC on your behalf, and it sounds like the Paul Hynes ones are in the same camp, but having not heard I can say for certain, the ideas certainly fit).
Ali Tait
27-10-2010, 09:24
I speak as I find Nick. :-). I'd agree with that assessment,but then it's true for a lot of stuff the chaps build- it's far superior to anything commercial that's available at sane prices. Just imho.
With respect to Glenn, I feel his products are rather more than *just* DIY-for-you... His products are built the old fashiond way, but are commercial none-the-less :)
However, to see such wonderful pieces built in very low numbers to such high standards gladdens my heart and long may it continue. After doing some basic re-wiring to me Garrard just now, I know how difficult it can be to get a neat job that looks half way professional.
With respect to Glenn, I feel his products are rather more than *just* DIY-for-you... His products are built the old fashiond way, but are commercial none-the-less
Well, I am not entirely sure what you mean by that, but then again you are not sure what I mean by "DIY-for-you" either so no point in arguing about it.
They are certainly commercial in that you pay for them, but there is no magic dust that is only available to "commercial" designers, so the electrons dont know or care.
Well, I am not entirely sure what you mean by that, but then again you are not sure what I mean by "DIY-for-you" either so no point in arguing about it.
They are certainly commercial in that you pay for them, but there is no magic dust that is only available to "commercial" designers, so the electrons dont know or care.
I like that nick... no magic dust...
that about sums hi fi up for me.. i have a large collection of valve and solid state amps.. but continue to use simple diy amps... and like you, i've heard plenty of other stuff
that phono looks fantastic...
Hi Nick,
That particular one, very little directly, mostly its against the remembered sounds of things like a upgraded Lector stage (I have one in for repair), and a Modwrite that I had here some time ago. Mainly I am comparing it against what I and what others have built in the past. A similar circuit compared well against Marcos Croft + assorted mods, (I don't know just what was done to it, I am sure Marco can comment)
Well done - your phono stage looks superb, and for £850 is likely (knowing the standards of your builds) to be an unmitigated bargain! :)
It certainly compared very well to my Croft (easily as good), and including all the modifications the Croft has cost me just under £3k, which of course tells its own story....
I would therefore thoroughly recommend your phono stage to anyone looking for a genuinely 'hi-end' design at a distinctly less than 'hi-end' price! :cool:
Joe, I must pop round for a listen sometime, as you're not that far away!
Marco.
selfaddict
30-10-2010, 11:01
I can also recommend Nick, hand in my hearth:trust:.
The information and knowledge what he has what comes to phono stages is just amazing. I can only comment on the phono stages, but I know he is able to built preamps, power amps...
We have agreed for some time ago that he will be building a phono stage to suit my "special needs":lol:. All the parts have been ordered and paid :eek: and then it will be just time to get it built and fine adjust the sound to suit my ESCo modified Denon DL-103. It will be something special :)
The Black Adder
30-10-2010, 17:13
Hi Nick,
Well done - your phono stage looks superb, and for £850 is likely (knowing the standards of your builds) to be an unmitigated bargain! :)
It certainly compared very well to my Croft (easily as good), and including all the modifications the Croft has cost me just under £3k, which of course tells its own story....
I would therefore thoroughly recommend your phono stage to anyone looking for a genuinely 'hi-end' design at a distinctly less than 'hi-end' price! :cool:
Joe, I must pop round for a listen sometime, as you're not that far away!
Marco.
You will be very welcome matey... Just let me know.
It's sounding superb, I'm writing a much more in depth review too, so watch this space.
I now need to get some more compatible speakers with my new/old amp and we will be rockin.
I thought I'd resurrect this thread.
Yesterday at Scalford I bumped into Nick, who I've known since the WAD (World Audio Design) days. I mentioned I'd seen this thread about his phono stage and it looked interesting. I am still using the WAD II albeit modified, with CineMag SuT loaded on the primary.
Nick and I briefly discussed some of the issues relating to SuTs (well Nick knew what he was talking about, I was just pretending and trying to look intelligent!!)
Well the upshot of the discussion was that Nick had built his second phonostage and had it with him. He very kindly offered it to me to try out...well dog, bone; pope, catholic etc!!
I have installed it....it is large! My initial impression is very positive.
It is very quite. I had some hum issues but I think they may be resolved, just slight at full volume, but I think this is a location issue.
Currently loaded at 100R being fed by a AT33EV ( I will try others later). The interesting thing is this is (as I understand it) JFET front end.....no coils/trannies/SuTs which is very much against my preconception of what I should like (bit like Class D amps...until yesterday!!!...not that I cold even think of affording them!).
I'm not sure on the specs but I would guess the gain on the front end is in the region of 1:6 rather than my usual 1:9 which is not really a problem, just means moving the volume a little.
The sound is very clear, fresh.... unveiled even. It is dynamic and has valve warmth as they are in the later stages of the phono. If you had suggested that my previous phone rig was veiled I would have suggested you get your ears cleared out, but know I wonder and I am sure Nick has something here. He said that the reasoning behind the phono stage "....was so that someone could actually hear what a moving coil cartridge was doing and capable of." That, from first impressions, certainly seems to be valid.
Anyway more will follow...I need to go back and compare.
JFETs again..
I wish I knew what I was going on about, but I understand that JFETs in a sympathetic circuit can offer nice high input impedances to a buffer stage, thus removing many of the impedance-matching difficulties with domestic-audio.
Glad Mr Lurcher is still doing the bizz. one day...one day.......:)
The Black Adder
08-03-2011, 09:52
Hi Gerry... That's great.
I'm still amazed what this thing does. It's sound is absolutly superb. I'm well happy!
Good to know it survived the journey Gerry, just FYI, as you have it the stage has a gain of about 65dB. It can be increased or decreased by maybe 6dB either way, but 65 seemed a good center point.
If anyone knows some of the things I have built in the past, anything that fits on a rack is small by comparison, so I am trying :-). I think the contents could be fitted into a smaller case, but then things would be closer together than I would prefer, but its possible. The one Gerry has is what I said I was going to build after making Joe's example. Its there for folk to have a listen and see what they think. So if anyone else wants to have a listen to it after Gerry, just let me know and it can have a journey around the country on its way back to Halifax. No pressure, I am more interested in just what folk think of the sound, it wont be to everybodys liking, SUT's add something positive to the sound as well as taking something away. And I think some will value what they add more than what is lost. The phono I made for Juan is the other way round, that was designed explicitly to be drivern by MM or SUT's. Both work, but not always for the same people :-).
Nick, yes it did survive!
Could it be spilt with the psu separate, like the WADs? or would horrendously complicated and detrimental to quality?
Yes, it could, which is what I did with Juan's stage, its in two boxes. One box containing the power supply, rectifier, B+ regulator and lots of chokes, the other box the phono stage (well in this case two phono stages). Like everything else its a set of compromises. The design you have was aimed at being possible to produce at a target price of £850 (and make it worth me spending the day and a half that it takes to put together). Still not cheap by any standard, but adding a second box (especially if the case work is machined and non Fe) pushes the cost up quickly. Just the multi pin locking connectors to work at the voltages adds the best part of £60 in parts, and then you have (or at least I have) to make sure that its safe as two boxes, so the power supply won't start up with the cable disconnected, and so both ends are safe if its unscrewed while its running.
All that can be done without compromise, but not just by splitting it into two cases and running a wire from one to the other. (I know you were not suggesting that)
Thinking about it, other than the extra case cost and the interconnect, two boxes would work nicely for that. The B+ as it is is regulated by a handfull of CCS fed VR tubes (feel free to have a look inside), so moving the power supply into a second box would not stand much chance of introducing noise (I have a nice reel of 18 way shielded mil cable). And as you know the power control board in there is designed to handle two box situations. But I could never get it to the size of the WAD circuit. Well, maybe it could get that small if everything was pushed onto a couple of PCB's I will think on that further (dot dot dot).
Mere mortals like me would be interested to know:-
Does it take a pimped up SL1210 to another level?
I can tell this guy means business as he is only 1 of a few people I have ever seen who has fitted an IEC inlet with a filter built in, most others use the 79p jobby from farnells, nice job mate.
Well, it won't alter the turntable at all, but it may be better, worst or the same than your existing phono stage. No way of saying which one without trying :-)
Shame, given your location its a lot further away from you now than it was this time last week, otherwise I would say give it a try, maybe when it gets closer to home again.
My target price is £850 with machined and lettered non ferrous casework. Either black or silver front panel. +shipping. Time will tell if thats a good price or not. At the moment only the one exists. Joe's stage is electrically similar but in plain ferrous casework.
I should get a photo of the thing to put on the web site, but my pictures always look worst than reality, which is not what you need in such cases :-)
Nick, if you have a phonostage that one may try - I would still be very interested in doing so; is this an option please?
Yep, I remembered you were interested before. Maybe when Gerry has had enough of it it can go your way. PM me your address and I will see what we can organize. But its with Gerry till he has lost interest (so no rush Gerry, I am interested in what you hear).
Ah well, perhaps if/when Gerry has had enough - we shall see.
Yep, the "Maybe" in my answer wasnt conditional on anything other than it being available. If you want to hear it you certainly can, I just can't say when at this time :-).
Well I've had Nick's phono stage for a while now and have been comparing it to my WAD Phono II (modified) with CineMag step-ups.
Nick said to me that his aim was to build a phono stage which allowed you to hear what a moving coil was capable of. I can honestly say he has succeeded!
I tried it first with my AT PTG 33EV and it was a definite improvement. The bass was much tighter and deeper, the mid range less grainy.
The a Benz Micro ACE (L) again much clearer across the spectrum This is quite a forceful cartridge and it tamed the top end a lttle too.
Denon 103R...work very well with this. Tight bass and enhanced the midrange without promoting the top end to a point of being ragged.
The only cartridge I'm not sure it gelled with, in the sense it wasn't a chalk and cheese improvement was the Shelter 501. But I think this was really designed to work with trannies rather than active stages.
It gets a real thumbs up. I don't believe it can be bettered by a commercial unit at the sub £1000 mark...if it I can I have yet to hear one this good.
My only criticism is the size, but I understand why Nick has built it as such, but will be exploring a 2 case option with him...separate PSU. It is sensitive to position (well in my system) in order to eliminate hum.
A real gem......who is next in line to try it?
Is anyone going to offer to buy it at some stage in it's journey mi wonders?
A real gem......who is next in line to try it?
It would seem that I am :) and Nick has already been in contact to arrange delivery. I must say that I am very much looking forward to hearing it. I have quite recently had both a Linn Uphorik and Naim Superline on loan and it will be interesting to compare it to my memmory of these.
I have sent Gerry your contact details to send it on to you.
\if possible I love to try it too, I understand if this is not possible
\if possible I love to try it too, I understand if this is not possible
Yep, entirely possible, it was built to go on a road trip and gather opinion. Its going to mArk next as he asked when I built the original prototype about a year ago.
Sorry I've been busy with the South Suffolk Show for the last few days. I will get it off to Mark this week and send a pm when it has left.
No worries, thanks Gerry.
Well, very well packaged (thanks to Gerry), I have now received Nick's phonostage. I must admit that I am very much looking forward to listening to this unit.
Now I must admit that I am very much of the 'flat earth' ethos and, as such, some may believe that is strange that I should be keen on listening to a valve phonostage. In actual fact, just looking at the specification, this stage appeals to me; it takes moving coil cartridges directly, it uses a relatively simple circuit, there are no IC's, it is almost entirely hard wired - the fact that it uses valves rather than transistors is irrelevant to me.
I'm going to plug it in now :)
there are no IC's
Well, there are a couple of regulators in the heater supply :-)
Reid Malenfant
13-05-2011, 19:54
Well, there are a couple of regulators in the heater supply :-)
That doesn't count, they aren't in the audio chain :eyebrows:
Well I have plugged it in - no drama there - the blue button blinks for about 20 seconds and then it is on - simple as that. In fact, I have found it to be very easy to use so far. The transformers don't hum, the unit isn't noticeably microphonic and the gain seems quite appropriate for my Naim based pre-amp and noise levels are different, but no greater, than from my usual transistor based unit.
It's warming up in the system now but I have listened to a few records (5 or 6). But I tell you now, my first impressions are extremely positive - it sounds excellent. It's sweet but not soft in any way - great dynamic and projection - very well controlled when a lot is going on and great bass depth that is tight in a way that valve stages seldom are.
I will have a proper listen tomorrow.
Is there a waiting list as I would like to be on it please, I missed Nick tonight as he dropped me off a new toy at my house while I was out, I have a nice gap in my rack!
Thx
The Black Adder
14-05-2011, 09:18
Well I have plugged it in - no drama there - the blue button blinks for about 20 seconds and then it is on - simple as that. In fact, I have found it to be very easy to use so far. The transformers don't hum, the unit isn't noticeably microphonic and the gain seems quite appropriate for my Naim based pre-amp and noise levels are different, but no greater, than from my usual transistor based unit.
It's warming up in the system now but I have listened to a few records (5 or 6). But I tell you now, my first impressions are extremely positive - it sounds excellent. It's sweet but not soft in any way - great dynamic and projection - very well controlled when a lot is going on and great bass depth that is tight in a way that valve stages seldom are.
I will have a proper listen tomorrow.
Great to hear you have gone for one. :)
And it gets better... After a few weeks the valves seem to loosen up somewhat bringing even better timing and even more focus in bass and midrange.
Umm..I haven't actually bought one (yet), this is one that has been kindly loaned to me.
Do you think it is OK to leave it on all the time?
It will be happy if you do so, but like all valve kit the valves have a working life. None of the valves in it are rare or expensive (JJ ECC88 * 2 + Philips JAN 5687), but its not like a SS amp where it needs to be on 24*7 or it sounds pants. The valves should be good for at least 5,000 hours, but I only turn them on when I need them,
Nick, I've just been having another listen and I have to say that I think your design has not entirely received the full praise it deserves; it's not just good, or very good, it's blooming excellent - outstanding even. In fact, it is rather as I had hoped the Naim Superline would sound (but doesn't). It's really dynamic, big and bold - but also delicate and nuanced - organic in a way the (otherwise excellent) Linn Uphorik failed to be (note that the Superline and Uphorik are respected 2K designs - more for the Superline with its power supply).
My current phonostage loads my cartridge with a 1nf capacitor and a 560r resistor - how does that compare with what I am listening to at present? I've had a bit of a listen with, and without, the loading plugs and prefer the sound with them fitted.
Seems to cope with the very low output of my MC cartridge (Troika) very well indeed - in fact, this phonostage is an extremely easy swap into my system.
I'm going to do a couple of needledrops later if that's OK - to compare to my normal phonostage?
My current phonostage loads my cartridge with a 1nf capacitor and a 560r resistor - how does that compare with what I am listening to at present? I've had a bit of a listen with, and without, the loading plugs and prefer the sound with them fitted.
Modesty means I won't quote your praise, but thanks. I was very happy with it when I built the first, thats why I thought I would make another :-)
The amp as it stands, presents 1k and 220pf to the cartridge. The loading plug can contain whatever you want. As you have it the loading plugs give 100R+220pf. by just make up a pare of phono plugs with 1k2 and a 820pf cap and you have much the same loading.
I think I will do that then - do you just add the capacitor across the hot and cold of the phono plug in the same way the resistor is fitted (I guess you do)? So, is the setting without the plugs currently closer to my own phonostage than when the plugs are fitted?
The top plate is a bit rattly and when the music is playing the whole top plate vibrates like a bugger (I think I might put some magazines on it).
Make sure the screws holding it down have not come loose.
I think I will do that then - do you just add the capacitor across the hot and cold of the phono plug in the same way the resistor is fitted (I guess you do)? So, is the setting without the plugs currently closer to my own phonostage than when the plugs are fitted?
OK, will check
What about this bit Nick?
Yep, the answer was yes, so I left it as the "I guess you do" sort of already answered it :-)
Ah...I'm off to the shops then.
OK, I've made up the plugs with 1k2 resistors and a 820pf capacitors - nothing fancy, got them from Maplins - cheapo resistor and ceramic cap - am listening now.
Edit: Delivery of vocals is absolutely first class.
chris@panteg
14-05-2011, 17:26
Sounds tasty Mark ' what sort of money are we talking with this phono stage ?
(this is where I start shuffling and kicking tires).
I have been wondering what the answer to that very question is since first hearing the one I just built, and based on the time it takes to build one, and comparing the results to some very expensive commercial stages I have had across the bench (and seen inside them) I have come to the figure of £850 + delivery, thats with fully ali casework, all valves and machined and lettered front and rear panel, the box makers (modushop) can do either black or silver fronts.
£850 plus delivery apparently.
chris@panteg
14-05-2011, 18:08
£850 plus delivery apparently.
That's competitive and great value , if as good as you say .
You can jugde for yourself in a bit :) - just uploading my needledrops of it now.
Blooming typical - I seem to prefer the mid to top with the loading plugs I made and the mid to bottom with the plugs supplied!
OK, for those interested, here is a zipped file containing eight tracks - four from my phonostage and the same four from Nick's - the identity of the phonostages isn't stated, but I am happy to reveal it if people would prefer.
http://www.mediafire.com/?bu78zx9ljo2xuh5
Stratmangler
15-05-2011, 09:48
I had a listen to the six tracks, nothing special used for playback, just a pair of headphones plugged into my laptop's headphone output, and I prefer the B tracks.
Consistently there was less audible tracing noise and thus a lower noise floor, so dynamics seemed to be greater.
There seemed to be greater subtle detailing about the snare drum on the Talk Talk excerpt. There was also a touch more body to rim shots.
The balance was also better with the B tracks - there was a slight left channel bias to the A tracks, but it's something you probably wouldn't notice over speakers.
So it's B as far as I'm concerned.
The Black Adder
15-05-2011, 10:27
Umm..I haven't actually bought one (yet), this is one that has been kindly loaned to me.
Do you think it is OK to leave it on all the time?
My mistake but... me thinks that you will buy one though! - :)
I had a listen to the six tracks, nothing special used for playback, just a pair of headphones plugged into my laptop's headphone output, and I prefer the B tracks.
Consistently there was less audible tracing noise and thus a lower noise floor, so dynamics seemed to be greater.
There seemed to be greater subtle detailing about the snare drum on the Talk Talk excerpt. There was also a touch more body to rim shots.
The balance was also better with the B tracks - there was a slight left channel bias to the A tracks, but it's something you probably wouldn't notice over speakers.
So it's B as far as I'm concerned.
Very interesting Chris - thank you for taking the time to listen and comment.
Would anybody else like to comment?
chris@panteg
15-05-2011, 11:22
Just downloading now , Mark .
Download speed is good , 850 kps
Cool - looking forward to your thoughts
Thanks for the uploads, always enjoy listening to these things :) just noticed though File B's seem to be a fair bit bigger with higher bitrate than A
Will have a good listen though
chris@panteg
15-05-2011, 11:42
Mark , just had a listen to all the tracks , and there is a clear difference , A has a vivid , slightly forward quality but with a touch of hardness .
B sounds warmer and perhaps even a touch soft maybe , both sound good , at first i thought i preferred A , after another listen , I'm liking B .
To me A sounds like solid state and B is clearly a valve stage .
Was going to try them with PS3 running into dac but the PS3 won't play file B's (says unsupported data) , A's play ok though :doh: Will try them using modded Duet into dac sometime after dinner
According to the PC B have been upsampled to 96k , the A's are 44.1k :eyebrows:
chris@panteg
15-05-2011, 11:52
Damn , wrong footed again LOL :eyebrows:
Not surprised you found B sounding smoother, I always find upsampling 44.1 makes the sound warmer :)
Stratmangler
15-05-2011, 12:03
Now one thing I didn't do was look at the playback bitrate, which is something I'd normally do.
Still doesn't have any bearing on my comments about the recordings though.
According to the PC B have been upsampled to 96k , the A's are 44.1k :eyebrows:
Ah yes - could well be - sorry about that, it wasn't my intention to deceive - I can sort it out if you would like?
Not surprised you found B sounding smoother, I always find upsampling 44.1 makes the sound warmer :)
Hmm..that's interesting.
No probs Mark, were grateful you went to the trouble of uploading them :), only reason I mentioned it because the PS3 didn't want to play the 96k ones for some reason, will use the Hiface instead, the Duet won't play 96k either :lol:
Cheers Leo - I'm just uploading another file though; it's the same thing but with everything as equal as possible (if you know what I mean).
OK - try again :). Here are the same recordings (though, in actual fact, none of the files are the same) of the two phonostages - this time a bit more care has been spent ensuring the playing field is absolutely level :). However, I would say that the differences between these files and the previous ones is not very pronounced.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ekugki4jorbmseu
P.S. Sorry for the arsing about.
Just had a listen through the headphone system macbook/pm/ibassoD1,AKG 701 and I can barely tell any difference.
If I had to choose it would be D as these had a touch more warmth but it's hardly noticeable.
Currently loaded at 100R being fed by a AT33EV ( I will try others later).
Did you try any other loading Gerry, and if you did, what were your thoughts?
What is your phono stage by the way?
Ah, well, it's a bit cobbled together (looks neat enough though). It's in two boxes and is based on the Naim phono circuit. The main boards are Naim 323K boards with some of the components replaced. The power supply is based on a Naim Snaps, but only the transformer remains, the storage caps are different and so are the regulators - it feeds each of the phono boards with its own supply. The way the whole thing is earthed has been tweaked a bit as well.
It's not unlike a Naim Stageline powered by a Hi-Cap (but not exactly the same either) - which would cost £1145.00.
So...is that it then....all persons who wish to pass comment have done so?
Well..I guess the answer is yes :), sooo....
On the first set of recordings, the A recordings were made using Nick's phonostage and the B recordings were made using my own, all transistor, phonostage. On the second set of recordings, Nick's phonostage was D and mine was E.
Best to put em up on the other place I think;)
Yes, I did consider that - but then I will have to create a whole thread which Nick may not want me to do (as far as I am aware no thread about this phonostage has been created in that other place you mention). Of course, If Nick would like me to create such a thread, I would be happy to do so.
Well, I am not sure what the other place is, but sure why not :-)
Well, it has been posted and one of the industry trolls had already taken it as an opportunity to have a go - pathetic.
______________________________________________
So, what are my conclusions regarding Nick's phono-stage - well, I have already expressed them to Nick but here is the essence of it. There is a slight problem with comparing this phono-stage, at least there is for me, and that is that the output is quite high, Now this is no bad thing in itself but care must be taken to level match (something I did not start of doing). However, what Nick's phono=stage does have is a well projected mid and a strong bass, it also has good dynamic swing. These qualities make for a very enjoyable listen. In addition, the sound is never hard, bright or congested. On a negative side, despite having good detail, I never felt the sound was really as transparent as I would like and I actually found images to be better focused on my own phono-stage and it had greater sense of air around instruments. There was a bit of noise (not a lot) on Nick's stage and this sounded rather like mains interference. Perhaps of this noise were to be reduced the transparency would improve - I don't know.
A friend of mine came over for a listen and in rather stark contrast to my largely positive view, his reaction was quite negative. He instantly identified the mid projection and strong bass, but felt these were non-linearities and particularly that this left the mid bass unbalanced. I heard the same as him, bit it's all a matter of interpretation, absolute neutrality is not as important to me as it is to him.
So, on balance, I'm sticking with what i have for now. I do think Nick's stage was good and very good value for money. If it had a slightly greater sense of 'hear into the music' transparency I would probably feel otherwise - as I said, tonal neutrality is of less interest to me.
Thanks for the feedback Mark, very helpful. Yes, this one does have a little hum above the noise floor. Annoyingly the first one didn't, I never got the chance (yet) to find the cause or solution. I think its the flow of the hum fields from the TX, or it may be eddy current being set up in the casework. I may try a C Core TX instead of the toroid. The hum in question disapears is the case is removed. And is not there in the first example that had steel instead of al top and bottom plates. More investigation required.
My felling for the next thing to try when its finished its road trip, is some better coupling caps. At the moment it has Clarity Cap SA in there, good caps, but a little dark possibly. I have in mind to try a combinaion of SCR teflon and Clarity Cap MR next, problem is that adds £200 to the parts cost. But I will give it a go I think.
YNWOAN (mArk), your inbox is full.
Oops, sorry about that - sorted now.
fiddlemaker
28-05-2011, 13:01
Cheques in the post Ali :-)
The main reason I find it hard to make meaningful comparisons to a lot of commercial boxes (especially phono stages) is that on the whole compared to some of the DIY creations of folk like Will and all the audio talk crew who are not on here they are decidedly average. (I don't include the Croft kit in that, as IMHO, they are basically DIY done by GC on your behalf, and it sounds like the Paul Hynes ones are in the same camp, but having not heard I can say for certain, the ideas certainly fit).
Could you clarify what you mean by that remark?
Well, I think its not that hard to understand. DIY means you can make choices of parts and circuits based on sonic preferences. Most commercial kit seems to me to be built to a price, and the designer then works back from that point to a collection of parts. I sometimes wonder if there is a silent agreement between the manufactures that a £500 item, can only be so good, and can't compete with items in the £1000 or £2000 price range. God forbid if someone make a £500 item that is as good as a £5000 one, the sky may fall. Or at least the PR departments will send out death squads.
:lolsign:
Exactly! Full-on DIY or 'judiciously modified small, specialist, manufacturer commercial' gear (such as Croft, Beresford, etc) is where it's at in audio...
Unless 'badge-fi' gives you a hard-on, and you have more money than sense! ;)
Marco
Ali Tait
29-05-2011, 01:30
Well, I think its not that hard to understand. DIY means you can make choices of parts and circuits based on sonic preferences. Most commercial kit seems to me to be built to a price, and the designer then works back from that point to a collection of parts. I sometimes wonder if there is a silent agreement between the manufactures that a £500 item, can only be so good, and can't compete with items in the £1000 or £2000 price range. God forbid if someone make a £500 item that is as good as a £5000 one, the sky may fall. Or at least the PR departments will send out death squads.
Yep, have to agree totally with this. I keep trying to say how much more cost effective a diy approach can be, some folk listen, some don't. C'est la vie. You can lead a horse to water.......
Oi, daftee, have you tried that bloody Supra yet? ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
29-05-2011, 01:56
Nope, I've not been home! You may recall the storms earlier in the week. A considerable percentage of Scotland's population were off supply for a while. I've been at work till the early hours every day this week trying to get folk back on tap.
Oh right, sorry to hear that, mate. My parents live in Glasgow and they were unaffected, so perhaps it was more up where you are?
Marco.
Haselsh1
29-05-2011, 10:55
I am at the moment in talks with Nick Gorham about building me an EL34 based valve rectified amplifier sometime toward the end of this year as funds will then permit. The plan is to have the amplifier in a walnut chassis of similar design to the original Pink Triangle plinth but with either an aluminium or copper top plate. I found that I didn't want to re-invent my Croft pre/power as the one I had last year I had some serious issues with that I didn't want to repeat so on the advice of Ali Tait I contacted Nick. I'll keep in touch regarding this project as things progress.
Ali Tait
29-05-2011, 11:06
Oh right, sorry to hear that, mate. My parents live in Glasgow and they were unaffected, so perhaps it was more up where you are?
Marco.
Aye, it was more the north west and also Inverness way. About 300,000 people were off supply.
Nightmare. You should've opened a market stall selling candles! ;)
Marco.
I am at the moment in talks with Nick Gorham about building me an EL34 based valve rectified amplifier sometime toward the end of this year as funds will then permit. The plan is to have the amplifier in a walnut chassis of similar design to the original Pink Triangle plinth but with either an aluminium or copper top plate. I found that I didn't want to re-invent my Croft pre/power as the one I had last year I had some serious issues with that I didn't want to repeat so on the advice of Ali Tait I contacted Nick. I'll keep in touch regarding this project as things progress.
nick will build you a very good amp, what ever valves/ casework you choose
there are far more choices than most realise
it would be worth wasting a day at our diy meet in june, you would hear all sorts of kit, and you would have a far better idea of what you want nick to build you.. unfortunatey the money spent on casework does not make for a good sound, getting the innards, transformers and the valve choice right
is by far the most important aspect.
Steve can you let us know when you meet is; it be nice to go if I can Its a good journey but I like to go and I try and presuade Vic to come along (Trans-Fi)
Ali Tait
29-05-2011, 12:22
Yes agreed, it would be very educational, and you'd get to hear a wide variety of valve amps. Probably the only meet in the UK where you could do this.
Ali Tait
29-05-2011, 12:22
Nightmare. You should've opened a market stall selling candles! ;)
Marco.
Aye, could have made a killing!
Ali Tait
29-05-2011, 12:23
Steve can you let us know when you meet is; it be nice to go if I can Its a good journey but I like to go and I try and presuade Vic to come along (Trans-Fi)
Be great if you could both come John, it's the 18-19th June.
Ali Tait
29-05-2011, 12:44
Sorry :o
Here-
http://owston.site50.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=29
No promises will just depend when off in th new job
If I can make it I will
Ali Tait
29-05-2011, 13:57
Look forward to it John.
Ali Tait
29-05-2011, 13:59
A lot of us stay here on the Friday and Saturday nights. It's one of the highlights of the weekend to be honest, a chance to have a chat and a laugh-and a few beers of course!
http://www.booking.com/hotel/gb/owston-hall.en.html?aid=311076;label=owston-hall-ajQ0wfBSsVjXifJY6RYrngS3875498250;ws=&gclid=CO77tI2pjakCFQUOfAodohDCog
Yes I can understand that
When I was Marco and Nick at Scalford we had a great laugh after setting up
would be nice to see you john, thanks for posting the info Ali
should be a good do again.. only a couple of weeks off now
i'm hoping i still have my estate car to bring my latest speakers, othewise i dont know what i'll bring, i hoping i can get some of my other baffles in
... or the quad corner ribbons may just fit in the new car..
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