Recommended floorstanding speakers for <£1000 (inc. s/h)

[monstermoo]

I'm toying with the idea of replacing my Isobariks.

While they can be very enjoyable I quite like the idea of getting something more modern and easier on the eye!

I'd like something that can produce a full sound like the 'briks, while at the same time being faster and more accurate.

I'm thinking a budget of up to £1000 tops - and don't mind if this includes previously used.

I've no idea where to begin, so would welcome any suggestions!

Thanks

[Jason P]

Well if they still have any in, I'd recommend the Dali Suite 2.8s that I have - were originally around a grand, but Sevenoaks were selling them off for £400 plus delivery... would leave plenty of wonga for other upgrades/music/beer!

Depending whereabouts you are in Somerset you'd be welcome to come and have a listen.

Jason

[DSJR]

We did a comparison between old 'briks and some Sonus Faber Concerto mk1's on their adjustable stands using his Naim amps. He traded in the 'briks there and then. I know the SF's were stand mount, but we all felt the music made more sense than via the passive 'briks..

Alternatives? B&W CDM-7's should now be a grand or less. Tannoy Cheviots should still be affordable (budget some for restoration of the cone surrounds though), but will show up a harsh-toned Naim if you have such. Tannoy Turnberry's very occasionally come up and a recent pair sold on fleabay for £1200. these are much more refined than all the 1970's issue models and sound engaging without throwing the sound at you like the older ones could.

Linn's own speakers really need to be active to work at all, sadly. The Espeks boomed like crazy but the extra control when actively driven was clearly audible and they transformed into a very friendly speaker almost in the Spendor mold.

You know, old passive 'briks aren't so bad that they won't sound a heck of a lot better with modern gear. What do you use with them?

[Reid Malenfant]

ATC SCM40 if you can find a pair secondhand at about £1000, they should fit the bill but i'd suggest getting a good listen to them first ;) Just make sure you have a power amplifier with plenty of power as they aren't the most sensitive speakers in the world..

If you want your music accurately reproduced though you won't go far wrong :eyebrows:

[Welder]

A second hand pair of ProAc Response D18’s perhaps.

[monstermoo]

Thanks Jason, I will keep that in mind.

DSJR - I'm currently using a Linn Lk280+spark and LK2 power amp combo, with Caiman and Apple airport express via optical cable and Linn K20 speaker cable.

[Ashmore]

ahem... you could always investigate the purchase of a pair of very fine PMC FB1+ floorstanders from a thoroughly nice chap who sometimes frequents this forum (that would be me)....

Simon

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Simons option is a good one in my books ... Although they are room sensitive, in the right room they are very good with some quite enthusiastic low bass response

[Ali Tait]

I have a pair of ER Audio electrostatics on ebay if you have the room!

[DSJR]

Thanks Jason, I will keep that in mind.

DSJR - I'm currently using a Linn Lk280+spark and LK2 power amp combo, with Caiman and Apple airport express via optical cable and Linn K20 speaker cable.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'Briks of ANY vintage with LK280, will sound grainy and constricted, as the amp is horrid. I should know, as I owned one, sold them when I knew no better (:eek:) and compared it with an original LK2. The original peed all over the LK280, which made the sound as if it was being squeezed through a toothpaste tube - ugghh! The Dirak and Spark made it worse if anything and the shortcomings of the Lk280 were measurable as well, sadly..

PLEASE, instead of flogging the 'Briks, which won't fetch much at the moment, get a modern amp which will drive 4 Ohm loads properly. A Cambridge 840A V2 comes to mind - loads of power, load tolerance and FAR more clarity - and I'm sure there are loads of other amps that would do as good (HK990?). Any of these modern but cachet-less power houses will annihilate that horrid old Linn amp - I've BEEN there and done it, replacing mine with a Nakamichi CA7 and PA5mk2, the preamp of which easily outclassed in the fundamentals of music reproduction by a Croft Micro Basic ;)

To summarise, ANY speakers you buy will be dominated entirely by the amp getting in the way. Harsh words and I profusely apologise, but facts is facts I'm afraid and I lived to tell the tale...

P.S. [edit] - what you should be saving for is a pair of post 1993 ATC 100A's. these will cure all your troubles in one fell swoop I promise you :lol:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/d32505e0.jpg http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/a558bd4a.jpg

I hope Denis Blackham (Skye Mastering) won't mind me nicking this pic...;)

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/f0f03285.jpg

[halvis]

I had a Briks owner around the other month, he liked the sound from my ATC SCM 35's. I know quite a few people think the Briks sound is similar to that of ATC. The 35's are an older model, so it would be 2nd hand only, as the new model are the SCM40's which retail at over £2k. The 35's are around and about your 2nd hand budget though if you can find a pair.

They need a good amp though, but so did your Briks assuming they were passive.

[YNWaN]

I'm toying with the idea of replacing my Isobariks.

While they can be very enjoyable I quite like the idea of getting something more modern and easier on the eye!

I'd like something that can produce a full sound like the 'briks, while at the same time being faster and more accurate.

I'm thinking a budget of up to £1000 tops - and don't mind if this includes previously used.

I've no idea where to begin, so would welcome any suggestions!

Thanks

To be honest, you haven't left yourself enough budget in my opinion (even buying second hand)

I've had ATC SCM40's at my house and they were very good - they don't have the scale of Briks though and are quite wattage hungry (I had the fans on my Nap135's running most of the time) - better in pretty much every other respect mind you.

[monstermoo]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'Briks of ANY vintage with LK280, will sound grainy and constricted, as the amp is horrid. I should know, as I owned one, sold them when I knew no better (:eek:) and compared it with an original LK2. The original peed all over the LK280, which made the sound as if it was being squeezed through a toothpaste tube - ugghh! The Dirak and Spark made it worse if anything and the shortcomings of the Lk280 were measurable as well, sadly..

PLEASE, instead of flogging the 'Briks, which won't fetch much at the moment, get a modern amp which will drive 4 Ohm loads properly. A Cambridge 840A V2 comes to mind - loads of power, load tolerance and FAR more clarity - and I'm sure there are loads of other amps that would do as good (HK990?). Any of these modern but cachet-less power houses will annihilate that horrid old Linn amp - I've BEEN there and done it, replacing mine with a Nakamichi CA7 and PA5mk2, the preamp of which easily outclassed in the fundamentals of music reproduction by a Croft Micro Basic ;)



:stalks: WOW!! Quite a scathing view of the LK280 there!!!
I've always been led to believe that it was a good amp (Linn's version of the NAP250) and the predecessor of the Klout - which is highly regarded.

However, having said that - I don't really have first hand experience to compare it with anything else:lol:

I find the Isobarik bass a bit 'wobbly' without much definition, and various elements of a recording aren't always clearly defined - it can become tiring to listen to.
I suppose, musicality can be lacking at times.
Perhaps the briks are just too big for my 4m x 3m room :doh:

I do wonder what the LK280 etc. would sound like when put through something like the PMC's or Dali's. I'm also considering the Ninka, which had some good reviews in its time...

[YNWaN]

I have first hand experience of the LK280 and, like Dave, I don't rate it. Linn wanted it to compete against the Nap250 for sure; but the reality was a bit different.

[monstermoo]

Is the CA 840A V2 not an integrated amp?

It was always my understanding that 'seperates' are the way to go when looking for a quality sound.

Although the reduced box number and no doubt wider choice of inputs would be better in the living room, and would also keep the wife happy!! :)

[monstermoo]

I really like the look offered by the likes of the Dali Suites, Proac and PMC... it looks as though it could be time for a change! :)

However....I am also wondering if changing the source (thinking Sneaky DS) instead would have a major impact on the sound quality/clarity and sort things out?

hhmmmm, too many things to consider :(

[DSJR]

I'm sorry, i'm in grumpy mode today :mental:

The LK2 blew up into Sara's because the original heatsinks weren't appropriate to the task of driving 3 Ohm loads... Once fixed, these amps were overall the best of the early LK's in my opinion. The LK2-75 traded some grip for more atmosphere and, more importantly, greater reliability. However, the LK280 was a different design and really showed how awful solid state can be - the Intek was even worse, but I won't go there.

The LK1 preamp did get a bit better, although the Dirak made it go ballistic I thought. At this time, Linn didn't really seem to know where they were going, with the LP12 still sounding "fruity" yet the pro version of the Numerik (a large rack mounted thingy with slot in cards as I remember my mate who saw and heard it telling me). Both these extremes sounded totally different from one another. The same thing happened shortly after with Linn's clients, the older vinyl based ones wanting a screamer for a speaker to balance the fruitbox and the new "digital" clients wanting something with a bit more bass and a more natural midband. Linns answer at the time was for a very ballistic sound with tons of midrange "grain" and the early Klout also sugffered from this (I heard many and noted the improvement as the years went on). The Kairn preamp was in a different league to any LK1's out there and the kairn itself is now quite a veiled sounding preamp when compared to the AVI's, Quad's later models and Crofts "everything" of this world.

Standard passive Isobariks may well be a bit coloured and less integrated than the active ones can be, but I promise you that you "haven't heard them yet.."

ATC passives are sailing very close to the wind with that mid dome used this way and they're VERY power hungry. A Quad 606/707/909 will drive them with ease (two of them even better ;)) and a mate has some 35's with two 606's and loves them, having lived for many years enjoying Epos ES14's and, later, ES30's which were badly damaged in a house move, the ATC's replacing and bettering them.

Cambridge make two 840 "versions" I understand, an integrated and also a pre and power. The 840E preamp terrifies me, it's so complex inside, but the power amp seems to be very refined in a "velvet glove" kind of way - totally opposite to a classic Naim from the bad old days. I haven't mentioned the latter make as a second hand set at the right price will need loads spending on it to bring it up to anywhere near decent performance and the results can be so contrived and controlled to me (unless you have 135's). A current Nait 5 whatever will drive 'Briks, but will take your fillings out if it's clipped I found.

Earlier, I mentioned Quad. The 707/early 909 wasn't ever considered by myself for 'Briks, but I understand that these amps (a touch newer and more refined than the 606) are quite happy to deliver 220 Watts into 4 Ohms. if your source is digital only, then one of these for £225 will do the volume and line driving duties...

http://www.spl.info/index.php?id=184&L=1

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/volume2_315x225.jpg

[Welder]

Go and listen to the ProAc’s if you can Steve.
You really don’t need to buy piles more boxes of watts to drive them. They’re well built, unfussy, musical, easily driven and very room tolerant and you should be able to pick up a pair for a grand.
Integrated v separate; you must have been talking to a Hi Fi salesman ;)
In theory, separate pre and power might just give an audible difference in the kind of system I think you’re looking for. Separate pre and power really only becomes meaningful should you want/need a pair of power amps, or for a Valve based set up. A good integrated will be fine with the ProAc’s; fine with most speakers that are well designed and don’t show the amp difficult loads :)

[monstermoo]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

No problem Dave, I appreciate the honesty! I presume that if I got a CA 840A v2 that there would be no need for the Volume2 you pointed out? Or were you suggesting that I use the Caiman just as a DAC as opposed to preamp, and get a seperate volume control?

Do you think that much would be gained at this stage by changing the amps rather than improving the source?

I always planned to go active with the briks, but finding a suitable active crossover is a nightmare and if the amps are a major problem then I would need 3 new ones ££££££! and that's never gonna happen! :D

[Effem]

Another vote for the Dali Suite 2.8s which are the only speakers to date that have coped with my awful listening room's bad dimensions and work well with either solid state or valve amps.

Best speaker I have ever had with no vices, hence no rush to change them :eyebrows:

[DSJR]

If the Caiman to power amp interconnect is short and low in capacitance, you should be fine just feeding a power amp. If Linn is your thang, then a LATE Klout will be fine. The Gator update should be purchased as soon as Stan has them available, as this will significantly upgrade the line-buffer and make the LK1 an unnecessary bottleneck. Interconnects can be made (single phono to XLR one for left and the other for right) and Mark Grant HD1000's would be ideal for this as long as he has the individual wiring details for each mono XLR.

I can't get on with modern Pro-Acs, the deeply recessed sounding midrange giving a false sense of "depth," together with a sparkly top and underdamped bass (Harbeths sound relatively taut and "percussive" by comparison) would be a sideways step IMO and totally the opposite of the whole concept of the 'Brik sound - IMO.....

[monstermoo]

If the Caiman to power amp interconnect is short and low in capacitance, you should be fine just feeding a power amp. If Linn is your thang, then a LATE Klout will be fine. The Gator update should be purchased as soon as Stan has them available, as this will significantly upgrade the line-buffer and make the LK1 an unnecessary bottleneck. Interconnects can be made (single phono to XLR one for left and the other for right) and Mark Grant HD1000's would be ideal for this as long as he has the individual wiring details for each mono XLR.


I'm not using the LK1 anymore, just the Caiman as pre/volume control and DAC of course (although I'm sure it would sound better from the fixed outputs). What is the Gator update and how would it improve things as I've already taken the LK1 out of the equation?

At the moment I'm using phono leads with splitters and XLR-phono adapters.


As a side note, I've been looking around and wonder what are peoples views of the B&W CM-7 and CM-9? Both of these can now be had for <£1000.

[Haselsh1]

I also use Dali Suite 2.8's and love them into my Croft pre/power. They have some serious bass welly with a very generous lump of punch and power. The midrange is to die for especially on good, well played electric guitar courtesy of Mr Weller although I don't doubt that this is helped no end by the Croft combo. OK, so the finish of the Dali's is slightly low spec with no genuine veneer but they look amazing and sound fantastic. I am in North Yorkshire if anyone wants a session.

[DSJR]

The Gator is a semi-discrete output-stage mod and is a plug-in replacement for the board already in the Caiman. It promises to open things up a bit as well as making the variable output stage a "proper" transparent preamp able to drive a hopefully wider load range. The direct cap-coupled output mod should be good too, but the cap value has to be exact for the amp it's feeding.

There are also good quality phono to XLR leads available on fleabay which will enable you to dispense with adaptors. Mark Grant could also make you up a set of his excellent HD1000 cables too, as the LK2 is single ended with XLR sockets using pins 1 and 3 for each channel positive as I remember (it should tell you the configuration on the back of the amp and I believe from memory in the manual too).

[Rare Bird]

Have you got a link to this Gator thing Dave?

[monstermoo]

I like the sound of this Gator mod - if anyone has links to further details on this please feel free to post them here :)

[Alex_UK]

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7623&highlight=gator

(It only became the "Gator" later in the thread.)

[DSJR]

A final thingy for sub £1K speakers - The excellent Spendor S series. The S8's are easily obtainable now for under a grand and the bass-tighter S8e's aren't too far behind this target figure. They do need a lean-but-clear balanced amp though and the later Linn (LK140 and 5125?) and Naim designs are preferred options, together with the assertive silver plated speaker cables we used with them (Chord Odyssey was a favourite).

[campbell mac]

I can recommend the Monitor Audio RX 8 floorstanders but I had to change my Linn LK1 LK2 plus Dirak for Quad 99, then it all made sense and I have been very happy with this set up. The speakers are worth an audition and they look great and are quite sensitive.

[jandl100]

Used speakers for under a grand? ....

My 2p-worth ...

Audio Physic Virgo 2 - stunningly open and dynamic. Walk-in sound stage. Stonking bass. Easy to drive. £700-£800.

Leema Xavier - even more rez and naturalness than the Virgo 2, which is saying a lot!, but bass isn't quite to the same standard. Hard to find, though. £700-£800.

If you prefer a somewhat softer focus, the Vandersteen 1C are very hard to beat in the vfm stakes, imo. Quite rare - but used for £500-ish.

Or why not go for a BIG change? - Quad ESL57 stats! Drive 'em with a small but fast valve amp (Leak Stereo 20, AI500 ... etc) - wonderful! Limited bass and dynamics, though. £400-£500 for a nicely fettled pair.

Loads more choices out there, of course.

Dali Suite 2.8? .... errr, not for me - great vfm, and the bass performance is ahead of the rest of its game, but spend more & you get more, imo.

[Haselsh1]

but spend more & you get more, imo.

That's very true of just about every aspect of life apart from maybe sex where the end result is always the same.

[Marco]

Hi Jerry,

Just a quickie, dude... Could you please add your basic location details to your profile, as is now required by all of our members? :)

Cheers, matey! :cool:

Marco.

[jandl100]

Hi Jerry,

Just a quickie, dude... Could you please add your basic location details to your profile, as is now required by all of our members? :)

Cheers, matey! :cool:

Marco.

Whoops - I missed that.
Now done. :)
... you'll be asking for our credit card details next ... ;)
________________________

More speakers under a grand to ponder on ....

These Neat Petite 2 with matching gravitas bass enclosures look seriously sexy! ....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/neat-petite-2-matching-gravitas-bass-enclosures-/160499059211?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item255e7d4a0b

And I note that the eBay seller will be putting up his Virgo 2 speakers for sale soon. Drop him a line - fabulous speakers!!

[Marco]

Well, if you're insisting...... ;)

Marco.

[Haselsh1]

Whoops - I missed that.
Now done. :)
... you'll be asking for our credit card details next ... ;)
________________________

More speakers under a grand to ponder on ....

These Neat Petite 2 with matching gravitas bass enclosures look seriously sexy! ....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/neat-petite-2-matching-gravitas-bass-enclosures-/160499059211?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item255e7d4a0b

I used to sell those when I worked for Sevenoaks Sound and Vision in Hull. The small standmounts were stunning but the bass units turned the whole thing into a mess. I loved the treble clarity on 'Big Calm' by Morcheeba.

[Haselsh1]

In fact the whole thing reminded me of the LS3/5a's with AB1 subwoofer. Very nice but totally out of control bass on anything other than the most simple of recordings.

[Effem]

Dali Suite 2.8? .... errr, not for me - great vfm, and the bass performance is ahead of the rest of its game, but spend more & you get more, imo.

The Dalis sound much better when you shove some good quality toons up 'em - same as any speaker really :eyebrows:

[monstermoo]

The Virgo 2's look to have some very promising reviews, but placement seems to be critical.

Trouble is, the speakers will be positioned in alcoves either side of the fire place.

The alcoves are roughly 1m wide x 0.4m deep.

Is this likely to be problem, as the Isobariks didn't like being placed in the alcoves very much - it made them sound tinny :(

[jandl100]

The Virgo 2's look to have some very promising reviews, but placement seems to be critical.


Hmm, yes, people do say that.

I've owned Virgo 2 myself, and been to at least 3 other folks' places who had them. They all said placement was critical, but all had them set up completely differently!! :eyebrows:

In my experience, they are not position critical at all - but you do (of course) get a different presentation depending on placement. Having said that, I've not heard Virgo 2 sound anything but excellent, despite the very different setups I've seen.

In a way, the Virgo's are all things to all people - you can make them deliver a big Wall Of Sound type of thing, or make them into 'precision near field monitors with bass'.

Your 0.4m deep alcoves don't seem to present a problem, imho. I'd start by setting them up with about 30cm behind the rear of the speaker. Toe-in is as important as front-to-back positioning, ime.

Note though that the Virgo's are 16 inches deep (Although only about 6 inches wide) so they will stick out a fair way.

[monstermoo]

Out of curiosity, what sort of height do the Virgo's stand at?

TBH I struggle to find much detail on the Virgo II, Google searching tends to bring up Virgo III or 25 - what are the differences?:scratch:

[jandl100]

Here's a review of (I think) the Virgo mk1. No, I'm not sure what the differences are going to the mk2! Not huge, I think, and many people seem to think that the mk2 was the most musical of the Virgos 1, 2 or 3.

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/147/

[monstermoo]

Thanks Jerry.

I must admit that the rather lengthy and complicated positioning process described in the review does put me off, as does the inability to produce good strong bass.

It's a shame that the speaker 'looks' so dated. Although I'm sure that the changes from the Mk II to the current Virgo are probably mostly cosmetic.

Still, I haven't dismissed the idea.

Any opinions on the B&W CM-7 and CM-9, from what I can see they are widely used in surround sound set-ups but I'm only really interested in 2 channel audio at the moment.
So I wonder how they perform in this respect?

[DSJR]

Sucked out in the crossover region from what I remember....

[jandl100]

Thanks Jerry.

I must admit that the rather lengthy and complicated positioning process described in the review does put me off, as does the inability to produce good strong bass.

It's a shame that the speaker 'looks' so dated. Although I'm sure that the changes from the Mk II to the current Virgo are probably mostly cosmetic.

Still, I haven't dismissed the idea.

No, honestly - forget all that obsessive positioning gubbins - as I said before, I've heard several very different Virgo setups and they all sounded great. Also I have much experience with moving a pair around in my own system. I've not heard them sound poor.

The bass? - deep, taut, powerful - superb, in a word.

Do they look dated? :scratch: I must admit that hadn't even occurred to me!

But as you say, lots of other fish in the sea. :)

[monstermoo]

I'm quite taken with the idea of Virgo's, but am concerned that the MkII is getting a bit old now - would they not be getting tired and have lost some of their dynamic capability?

Perhaps I should also consider the MKIII?

[monstermoo]

Right, I think I've decided on AP Virgo II (or III) depending on what comes up for sale.

I contacted the ebay seller of the Neat Petite's about his Virgo II's - but he's got 2 definite buyers already and they haven't even been placed on ebay yet! :(

Anyone here thinking of parting with theirs? :P

[hoopsontoast]

Rega R7's? :)