View Full Version : Garrard vs Michell
Hi guy's, I hope someone can help I am thinking about getting a garrard 301 with sme arm old type. I have at the moment a Michell gyro se spider, upgrades are orb platter hr power supply arm is rega rb300 rewired, with techno weight. I just wondered if anyone could rate both these decks pro' and con's. The reason I am thinking about the garrard is I have owned vintage hi fi in the past rogers cadet,valve amps esl 57s and they sounded excellent better than most modern hi fi I have listened to, so I guess I am thinking a vintage turntable like the garrard could be better than my michell:scratch:
I dare say your Gyrorb will be by far the quieter of the two, but may have a slightly "swimmy" sense of pitch as I remember. Suspension fettling is very difficult with these and can make matters worse unless Michell have improved things in recent years.
Garrards are, well, Garrards, with this huge warm hearted sound mainly favouring the centre mono image over extreme left and right. Motor noise and the harmonics thereof will always be there in the very background and exactly how much will depend on plinth suitability, power supply (or not) and the tolerances in manufacture, something all Garrards post early sixties suffered from (could even have been the bean counters at Plessey having something to do with it for all I know).
I love the 401, its styling and the feeling I get whenever I see one (seeing Alex's 401 in white painted HW plinth recently reminded me). 301's are similar but possibly better in one or two ways. The pre "Improved" SME 3009's are lovely too and can take most modern cartridges with ease, as long as either a modern Sumiko style headshell is used, or the SME shell loaded with the blac-tac they provided for the purpose of cartridge coupling - worked too...
Jason, I moved from a Gyrorb with HR PS and Tecnoarm to a 301. Getting enough treble from the 301 was a fight but it can be done. Generalizing greatly I would say the Gyrorb sounds thin in comparison to the rich sounding 301 which also pounds out the bass in a propulsive way.
Hmm, I would be a bit careful here not to let the wood and nostalgia brigade rule out what I believe is a fine turntable in the SE Spider.
A lot is going to depend on the arm and cartridge combination you settle on.
One of my main Hi Fi conspirators has the SE+HR power supply with a haddcock GH242SE with an Ortofon rohmann and if the Garrard 301 with an SME 3009 outperforms that I would be surprised.
When I’ve listened to this combo it’s sounded delightfully musical with all the weight one could wish for.
While “newer” isn’t necessarily “better” than older, the reverse doesn’t necessarily apply either.
I would be very careful here and try some combinations out before you take anyone advice.
301? lack of treble energy?
Get a decent unipivot arm like a NAS and...
GET A BLEEDIN' DECCA!!!!!!!!! :lol:
A 301 really comes into its own with a London Decca, I KNOW these things :)
Dave, check my signature....
Re arms, it's great with the airbearing T3Pro too.
Dave, check my signature....
Re arms, it's great with the airbearing T3Pro too.
That makes three or four of us then :lol:
Beobloke
21-10-2010, 14:46
The Gyrodec is one of my absolute favourite modern turntables. It has a big-hearted sense of musicality, fine timing and some of the best lateral soundstaging you are likely to find from a vinyl spinner. Every time I see one I remind myself that I really MUST add one to the Beobloke collection one day and, believe me, I will!
That said, I absolutely adore my 301. The treble can be a bit veiled with the wrong partnering ancillaries but it times like nothing else out there and has the sort of bass grunt that can cause pain! That said, though, it's not all boom and bang, with a detailed and fleet-of-foot upper bass and a superbly focused midrange.
As far as i can see, though, your two options will sound quite different and it depends what you really want to achieve. The Gyro and RB300 is a fine combo and the 301/3009 is a classic one, but ultimately the 3009 will limit the performance available from the 301. The old SME is a lovely thing but it really has been somewhat surpassed sonically.
I'd go one of two routes, personally -
(1) Forget the 301, sell the RB300 and put the funds towards an SME V (just like fish & chips, beef & Yorkshire pud and toast & Marmite, Michell & SME are just MEANT to be!).
(2) Sell the GyrOrbe, buy a 301, stick it in a decent plinth and bung something like a Jelco SA-750D, Roksan Nima or Consonance ST-988 arm on it.
Either way, you'll have a storming turntable.
Re John's (Welder) wood comment....there's no wood near my 301, it's on a twin tier slate plinth.
BTW, the Salvation significantly outperforms the 301, it would destroy a Gyrorb. All IMO and to my personal taste.
To my ears the Salvation beats even the mighty Brinkmann LaGrange
Clive.
Oh arr, no wood then………..:rolleyes:
“Significant”, “destroy”; as you say, depends on who is listening doesn’t it (?) :eyebrows:
Thanks to everyone here who has replied alot of pros's and con's as I thought. I guess it's just down to taking the plunge or not, I would have to sell my deck to hear a 301 so I'm stuck there, its a shame we don't all live on the same street LOL. I will have to have a good think and do a bit more reading up, when the girlfriend is out as she say's I'm not getting rid of the gyro for that pile of junk women Ha Ha. Thanks again
I will keep you posted and any more advice would be great, I listen to mostly jazz
Cheers
Jason
The Grand Wazoo
21-10-2010, 18:19
If you place soundstaging highly then stick with your Michell & get another arm & cartridge.
If bass is your thing then go for the Garrard.
My Gyro does me fine.
Hi Chris thanks, any recommendations for a arm cartridge. My arm/cart has had a rewire, the techno weight added, vta adjustment, decoupling kit, cartridge is a goldring elite. Cheers Jason
The Grand Wazoo
22-10-2010, 19:24
I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment on that really - I've always used mine with the same combination - a Zeta & Koetsu Black. I've used my Gyro since about 1992 - bought when they were still deeply frowned upon by many as being nothing poor sounding but rather 'pretty'. I compared it to the usual suspects at the time & for me it won hands down because of what it did rather than what it looked like. The Zeta goes a little way towards plumbing the depths of bass that the 301 is capable of.
John Michell had a bit of a thing for SME's and they do seem to mesh together pretty well. Plenty of folks get on well with the Rega based options like you have, though.
Ali Tait
22-10-2010, 21:47
Thanks to everyone here who has replied alot of pros's and con's as I thought. I guess it's just down to taking the plunge or not, I would have to sell my deck to hear a 301 so I'm stuck there, its a shame we don't all live on the same street LOL. I will have to have a good think and do a bit more reading up, when the girlfriend is out as she say's I'm not getting rid of the gyro for that pile of junk women Ha Ha. Thanks again
I will keep you posted and any more advice would be great, I listen to mostly jazz
Cheers
Jason
Jason,
There will be one of our DIY get-togethers at the social club of Eggborough Power Station on the 6th Nov.Not sure what everyone is bringing,but there's a good chance there will be at least a 401.See the thread started by SPS (Steve) who is the nice man that sorts these do's out for us.It's a great day out,and you will probably get to hear a Garrard of some description at least!
If you want to stay with the Gyro and create the best of both worlds you might want to look at the synergy issue and partner it with an arm and cartridge that will give you something that approaches the bottom end performance of the Garrard while maintaining all the Gyro's strengths.
I'd suggest that this might do it for you:
A Jelco 750D (tweaked to get into the 25 gram range with effective mass) combined with a modified Denon 103R (either in an ebony body as in the photograph, or to keep the costs down an aluminum body) with either a Soundsmith line contact retip or perhaps the Expert Stylus paratrace.
Put this together with an excellent phono stage and I don't think you'll find much to be lacking.
I can attest to the fact that this is a great jazz table. Actually, it does pretty much everything well:)
My feeling is that using differing arms to change tonal balance is just coving up the main issue.
Jason, you need to decide whether your preference is for idler/rim, direct or belt drive. The 1st two have more in common than does belt drive with them. It's not just about tonal balance, it's about the way these different transmission methods deliver music. Which you prefer will depend on your priorities. You need to hear idler and DD, you already know what a good belt drive sounds like.
I think if you can get to the DIY event you will hear many good idler drives and this would allow you to make the best choice and totaloly agree with Clive you really do need to hear these different methods and go for what you perfer
Looking at his thread, why not an Orbe kit and SME 309 at least I reckon? best of everything in that idea I think..
The Gyrodeck was always a bit "soft focus" for me, unless fitted with an SME, a Spacecdeck showing it a very clean pair of heels when both were fitted with Rega arms. Hifi dave informs me that the Orbe is on a different and far higher level though and as hyou have some of it already..
If you want to stay with the Gyro and create the best of both worlds you might want to look at the synergy issue and partner it with an arm and cartridge that will give you something that approaches the bottom end performance of the Garrard while maintaining all the Gyro's strengths.
I'd suggest that this might do it for you:
A Jelco 750D (tweaked to get into the 25 gram range with effective mass) combined with a modified Denon 103R (either in an ebony body as in the photograph, or to keep the costs down an aluminum body) with either a Soundsmith line contact retip or perhaps the Expert Stylus paratrace.
Put this together with an excellent phono stage and I don't think you'll find much to be lacking.
I can attest to the fact that this is a great jazz table. Actually, it does pretty much everything well:)
Hi blake, thanks for your reply sorry I have taken a few days to reply back had to work:(. thanks for the info I like the look of the modified denon very nice, there is so many choices I have decided to come to the DIY get together. Do you know the times and is there a admission fee. Cheers Jason
I think if you can get to the DIY event you will hear many good idler drives and this would allow you to make the best choice and totaloly agree with Clive you really do need to hear these different methods and go for what you perfer
Thanks again for everyone's advice on the deck, I think making the DIY get together is a good idea:) anyone know the times and if there is a admission fee. Cheers Jason
Jason,
There will be one of our DIY get-togethers at the social club of Eggborough Power Station on the 6th Nov.Not sure what everyone is bringing,but there's a good chance there will be at least a 401.See the thread started by SPS (Steve) who is the nice man that sorts these do's out for us.It's a great day out,and you will probably get to hear a Garrard of some description at least!
Please refer to this Everyone is really friendly and lots of great gear
Steve (SPS) is a really nice guy. Some of the sounds these guys get is amazing
The one I went to think cost £10 but sure Ali will be along latter to confirm
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8069
Best to email Steve (SPS) or add to this thread
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8069
Best to email Steve (SPS) or add to this thread
Hi John, will do mate thanks for replying. Jason:)
Hi Jason, the meet is not far from you.. eggborough power station social club
its on the power station grounds.. we will kick off around 9.30- 10.30 on
sat 6th november..
the cost should be around a £10 or so..
i should have my thorens 124 with me.. i'm sure Will's 401 will be there along with a few more..
i also have a couple of 301's that you could listen to, but that would not be at eggbrough..i live near the humber bridge
i would need to put them in a plinth 1st.. i also have a few gl75 & 78's, they too can make a nice sound with a little fettling for not alot of outlay
and a couple of 88's thinking about it..
Hi Jason, the meet is not far from you.. eggborough power station social club
its on the power station grounds.. we will kick off around 9.30- 10.30 on
sat 6th november..
the cost should be around a £10 or so..
i should have my thorens 124 with me.. i'm sure Will's 401 will be there along with a few more..
i also have a couple of 301's that you could listen to, but that would not be at eggbrough..i live near the humber bridge
i would need to put them in a plinth 1st.. i also have a few gl75 & 78's, they too can make a nice sound with a little fettling for not alot of outlay
and a couple of 88's thinking about it..
Hi Steve, that's great mate thanks for the info. Can I just ask if this is a men only event, reason I ask is my girlfriend enjoy's hi fi too and would like to come along, she says she will understand if its men only though:lolsign:.. Cheers Jason:)
Hi Steve, that's great mate thanks for the info. Can I just ask if this is a men only event, reason I ask is my girlfriend enjoy's hi fi too and would like to come along, she says she will understand if its men only though:lolsign:.. Cheers Jason:)
she is more than welcome... i need to know for sure by tuesday as i have to sort lunch for us all... we will share the costs on the day... she will be included in that... it will be around £10 or so
she is more than welcome... i need to know for sure by tuesday as i have to sort lunch for us all... we will share the costs on the day... she will be included in that... it will be around £10 or so
Hi Steve, just to comfirm we will both be coming:).
Cheers
Jason
Hi, just like to say I enjoyed the meeting at eggborough thanks Steve,,,, I never got to listen to a Garrard but I did get to listen to some amazing systems, Led Zepplin on Steve's was unreal. I have so much hi fi going through my mind at the min I cant think straight there is just so many different ways to go................Nice to meet the rest of you guys there as well. Jason
Yes Steve has some crazy speakers that really rock
glad you enjoyed the day Jason...
it will get you realising there's more than one direction with hi fi
and the speaker / amp combo is by far the most important to getting the sound you like..
up grading decks etc is then the icing on the cake...
I've just got my system set up tonight after eggy
it still rocks... i alway expect to break something...
no one would believe 5 watts of single ended triode would do that..
there where lots of good systems there... it was a good day
cheers
steve
glad you enjoyed the day Jason...
it will get you realising there's more than one direction with hi fi
and the speaker / amp combo is by far the most important to getting the sound you like..
up grading decks etc is then the icing on the cake...
I've just got my system set up tonight after eggy
it still rocks... i alway expect to break something...
no one would believe 5 watts of single ended triode would do that..
there where lots of good systems there... it was a good day
cheers
Hi Steve, yes its definitely got me thinking:scratch:, just painting at the minute so the system is packed up:steam:.... I will keep posted on any changes I make ,,, 5 watts :stalks::mental: Cheers Jason
steve..................
Hi, I have Gyrodec SE with SME 309 and Ortofon 2m black.
I have fitted Truepoint suspension upgrade and although I was quite happy already now blown away.
This upgrade is massive, see posts on here and other groups.
I would also say that the above TT and arm respond very well to fiddling and fettling.EG remove bridge from arm, spend an hour or more on set up etc
I have heard Garrard and modern direct drive and they sound different but are they better.
You've probably gathered that the Gyro is going nowhere.
Even if I had 5k or more to spend it's staying.
I think the Gyro has a lot more to give you than you think!
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