View Full Version : Equipment Synergy
How important do people consider this aspect of system building?
It's my view that one of the reasons why many people are dissatisfied with the performance of their hi-fi systems is because not enough care is taken with component and cable selection in terms of sonic presentation and thus how each item knits together (or not) to form a musical whole. If this isn't done properly then the system is ultimately unrewarding as a tool for appreciating music at its best.
And the so-called ‘bargain’ buys on EBay, and trying to successfully piece together a mish-mash of disparate components, are to blame for much of this dissatisfaction! But more on that later...
Marco.
WarJarrett
22-01-2008, 12:27
As an audiophile for over 35 years, I feel that equipment synergy is the most important factor that determines the overall pleasure of building a system as well as the overall satisfaction in the system's sound. So, the process of learning one's preferences and obtaining the sound one wants is a big part of the hobby. Then, appreciating the strong points in performance that one individual has achieved through his effort, and understanding the sonic compromises he had to make to achieve those strong points is tjhe next big part of the hobby. In other words, its not just about enjoying the music. But, of course, this is the ultimate goal.
Filterlab
22-01-2008, 12:35
But, of course, this is the ultimate goal.
Good point, and one that is oft forgotten. I think it's very easy to get carried away with continuous upgrades, but as I've learnt in the past, sometimes less provides more results.
For years I was bi-amplifying my MLs, at the point I decided to change the speakers for a pair with only single terminal I removed one of the power amps to pop it on ebay.
With only one amp driving the speakers the sound was much clearer - better synergy I guess, but I'd bought two as I thought "one's good, two MUST be better!".
But nope. :)
Steve Toy
22-01-2008, 16:06
Synergy to me is having a series of components pulling in the same direction to achieve similar sonic goals. It is not about mixing bright with warm, hard with soft to somehow meet in the middle, but then my priorities may not be the same as everyone elses.
On the subject of amps, has anyone noticed how a really good preamp will usually make a system sound more involving, dynamic and generally enjoyable than a system with volume control from, say a CD player, directly into a power amp? Theory says this should not be so, especially if you believe in maintaining the purety and directness of the signal path, but practise says different.
Vinyl Grinder
23-01-2008, 03:26
Been into Vintage gear for over 25 year. + I can honestly claim that Pre amps/Phono stages are the weak link. im not going into this as it would take pages, but im sure many could build on what i've quoted!
It's extremely hard getting a vinyl system to mingle with CD but the obvious output is getting rid of CD altogether as i did..My life is so much easier on the ear & brain....
Hi Vinyl Grinder, If you haven't already heard a Non oversampling DAC you might be surprised, mine is very analogue sounding uses a pair of TDA1541A dacs.
It's fed from a Clocked Pioneer transport with 3 power supplies, it has none of the typical CD sterility and harshness, and I'm able to flip flop between it and my Oracle Delphi / Rega/ Kiseki, with no obvious drop in quality.
jimdgoulding
26-01-2008, 04:52
To the above I would just add that the room in which a system is to be heard should be factored in when selecting speakers. I know that one's room is subject to change but there is a principle that won't fail you. Speakers need to be at one end of an equilateral or equidistant triangle with your listening position at the triangle's apex on the other end. Now comes the hard part, well away from your room boundaries. And if your listening in the near field as I think you might be if you follow the above, I think it's important that you audition speakers with their drivers tightly grouped. I have a preference for two ways for coherence and imaging free of their enclosures. That ain't all. If possible, take anything massive or bulky out of the room and cover the floor. The side walls should mirror each other if at all possible. Open legged tables. And no queen anne or high back chairs unless you are seated against the back wall, preferably not, in which case there may be a theoretical advantage. All the best.
On the subject of amps, has anyone noticed how a really good preamp will usually make a system sound more involving, dynamic and generally enjoyable than a system with volume control from, say a CD player, directly into a power amp? Theory says this should not be so, especially if you believe in maintaining the purety and directness of the signal path, but practise says different.
Here we have an example of technology applied the wrong way.
Volume controls on CD-players often act the "digital way", meaning that bits are thrown away resulting in worse sound quality.
Using a "passive preamp", mostly a potentiometer of some kind, also may have a negative influence on sound quality. The reason there is that most power amps are designed to be connected to a low impedance at the input. So noise and distortion will rise doing it this way.
Most power amps sport a rather low input impedance, be it 10 kOhm or lower. Most CD-players cannot cope with that impedance. The op amps at the output have to deliver "current" when designed to deliver voltage. The higher the input impedance the better the sound. In my experience a minimum impedance, as "seen" by the CD-player, is 100 kOhm. Probably this is the reason why a lot of tubed preamps will present a more "musical" way handling CD-sound.
John
Filterlab
26-01-2008, 21:08
...In my experience a minimum impedance, as "seen" by the CD-player, is 100 kOhm. Probably this is the reason why a lot of tubed preamps will present a more "musical" way handling CD-sound.
John
On my set up the output from the DAC is 50 Ohms and the amp's input is 50 KOhms, at 1000-1 everything seems to behave itself very well, no unusual artifacts and no high frequency roll off.
Of course, this could all be to do with component synergy. ;)
It's NOT the HF-roll-off you'll hear but just some distortion and agressiveness. The problem is that most op amps "hate" delivering current. Some manufacturers recognized this problem and added a discrete kind of small power amp in their CD-players.
D/A-converters hardly show this problem.
John
Lowrider
30-01-2008, 11:34
Most people disregard this, then they spend their time and large amounts of money, trying to make their systems sound good...
There is no amplifier, or player, or cables, that are going to make the wrong speaker sound good in the wrong room, etc...
Most people disregard this, then they spend their time and large amounts of money, trying to make their systems sound good...
There is no amplifier, or player, or cables, that are going to make the wrong speaker sound good in the wrong room, etc...
Is there any "wrong" loudspeaker? I don't know. What I know though is that guys at hifi shops always try to sell Loudspeakers first if a customer comes into the shop looking for "better sound quality". IMHO that's by far the wrong way and most customers will be disappointed after having bought some expensive (mostly big) loudspeaker to their 300 Euro custom amplifier.
The other way around is an entirely different story. You may have a 20.000 Euro costing stereo single ended amplifier and connect it to two simple Diamond loudspeakers from Wharfedale. Then there's music! Oh you'll be missing some lower octaves but what you get is lots of "space" and "musicality".
John
Lowrider
31-01-2008, 12:37
Then, if you use an ineficient speaker with a SET you get small sound, the sistem is as bad as the weakest link, not meaning the cheapest link, of course...
max-greece
31-01-2008, 13:57
Put me in the synergy is critical camp.
Start with the basics:
What music do you listen to?
What volume do you listen at?
What room is the system going in?
What kind of sound are you looking for? (I want it to feel live / I want a relaxing system for background music etc.)
Once you have those in place then start hunting against this list. Most people start with the speaker and work backwards with the front end being viewed as a separate entity (wrongly in my opinion but you can get there in the end).
For component synegy (starting with an analogue front end):
Does my cartridge match my arm? Low compliance - low mass arm = bad news, High compliance - high mass arm similar etc.
Does my combo of arm and cartridge match my TT?
Do I have a phono stage that will boost my cartridge output sufficiently for my pre-amp?
Is there an impedance mismatch between my pre-amp and my amp?
Does my amp drive my speakers to the volume levels I need?
Obviously for each item in the list there is the added question - do I like the sound?
Does the whole match my room. A small pair of bookshelf speakers is not going to fill a ballroom. That might be fine for someone who does not want a wall of sound. Equally controlling large full range speakers in a small room can be a nightmare - might not be of course - depending on both room and speakers.
Bottom line - try everything you buy at home in your system with your music and let your ears decide - not the salesman's.
There is too much to cover here in a single post of course -this is just skimming the surface - but it is probably a start.
I agree with the synergy concept as well.
Too often I see people buying components from hifi reviews, putting together a class a component and an award winning component thinking that alone will make a winning system.
I've tried to explain to our readers so many times, that all we can hope to do is point them in a direction when reviewing a component. You still have to investigate for yourself and see if it's all working with your room and the rest of your gear.
I had a similar experience just this week. I have a Luxman 590II integrated in my second system and it has an onboard MC phono preamp with a set loading of 100 ohms. I've been trying a few cartridges with no great luck and of all things, my Dynavector 17D3 is a perfect fit for this!!! Most musical sound I've heard compared to cartridges costing a lot more, but on this amp, it's perfect.
It takes a long time to get it right!
Toners,
What's your web address for the magazine? We will put up a permanent link to the site in our 'Creative Collections'. I'd like to read some of the discussions you have with your members. Perhaps some of them would like to join The Art of Sound?
Two great posts, btw, from you and Max. I'm a great believer in synergy, and will add to the discussion in due course.
Oh, what's your proper first name again? I've forgotten! That's why we ask people to sign their posts with their first names, if you've read our announcements section {wink, wink} :p
Marco.
Brad - Virtual Dynamics
01-02-2008, 15:51
Well, It's clear that the biggest barriers are time, money and education.
I think it's important to note that not all electronics are created equal, and not all electronics are created the same. When it comes to analog, some have balanced circuits, some have unbalanced, many of these units try to do too much, and have overcomplicated poor quality circuit paths as a result. When you sit down with a little knowledge and think "What do I need to do to create a simpler and more elegant solution" THAT is the key to great design.
It's hard for someone who is just starting out in Hi-Fi to really understand what they are buying because the industry is so full of noise. Most of the time they have trouble even understanding what something like a DAC does, never mind the differences between the ways that different DACs process the signal...
Unfortunately for them, this information IS important and throwing money at it will generally NOT solve the problem.
:)
sastusbulbas
03-02-2008, 04:16
Synergy is very important, its not about the cost of the boxes but how well they compliment each other.
For me bass performance is important, with a neutral mid and unobtrusive treble, sadly I think my treble is one of my main systems weak points, as is its ability to highlight noise such as hiss or hum.
As an example of synergy, I replaced a Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista 300 power amp with a Krell Kav-250, sure they are both of similar RRP, but the Nu-Vista did have better kudos and the Krell was going for a song, sadly though superb, the Nu-Vista was also larger than life, suffered noise through the Kef, and to be honest didn't seem as fleet of foot, compaired to Classe and Krell amplification. To be honest I feel the Kav-250 is one of Krells sleepers, it is rated at 250w but puts out over 300w (over 600 into 4ohm) drives every speaker in absolute silence (inc 103db sensitivity with no noise evident at the tweeter) and due to less complex circuitry, I think it seems a little faster of foot than some of the more complex Krell models (I did go to buy an FPB model second hand, but had just missed it and was offered the 250 for a couple of weeks demo, and at a good price if I wanted it).
Its turn of speed, slam and absolute control suit the Kef R107 to a tee, many big power amps can over egg the puddin with large full range speakers, not so the Kav-250 with KRC 3.
Then again, I do miss the Audio Research pre's, and I prefered their higher gain/output.
The Theta/Krell/Kef set up I use is pretty much doing more than the sum of its parts and I feel has good synergy. Though it may be better with Transparent Audio cables I have been told.
I also feel my Classe amplification suits my Rogers Studio 1 well, with the Mana soundbases also improving bass performance.
The Classe is rather dry and controlled in the bass, which suits the slightly full sound the Rogers can be guilty of with the wrong amplification and setting, the sounbases seem to lessen bass being transfered through the floor and clean up percieved pitch and definition, adding a drier punchier quality to the Rogers.
And I feel that the amount of time I have had most of my kit shows its all still capable of entertaining me and that I chose well, I have not heard much I would consider changing to, and I don't go for changing for the sake of it, (not just because I am a tight scotsman with a rubbish wage and two kids), though I did like the PMC/Bryston BB5/XBD active speaker package some time back. Oh and there are a few other pre amps I would like to own...
Steve
Thebiker
05-02-2008, 17:18
It is all about synergy. Anyone that has been in the hobby for an extended period has probably learned this the hard way. Whether you are into valves or solid state, it is all about the correct amp with the correct speakers for the room. My two primary 2-channel systems are both integrated valve amps. One system is a Cary SLI-80 with a pair of Paradigm Studio 20's (2 way on stands) with a Rotel 1072 HDCD player and a Sony 770SE for SACD. A wonderful system hooked together with Kimber speaker cables and Audioquest interconnects. Music just sounds right.
The other integrated valve piece is a Manley Stingray with another Rotel 1072 and a pair of Focal 816's. Audioquest interconnects again, but this time Cobalt speaker cables. Once again, smooth, clean and detailed.
I tried reversing the amps once and the magic just went away. The Manley did not match well with the Kimber cable and Paradigms, a trifle bright rather than balanced. The Cary was a little too laid back and lacked bite when it should be present.
I do consider myself fortunate that I have been able to bring my amps home for a 3 to 4 day demo prior to purchase....it makes all the difference.
Walt
A$$A-Pub
17-02-2008, 01:27
Synergy is one of the most difficult points of audio, as it depends so much on individual experiences. The difficulty is that it it incredibly rare for two people to have the same set of mixed components. Therefore, the ability to depend on others experiences lessons tremendously.
In all my years in audio and on the various audio forums I have never chatted with another person who had the same setup of an Adcom GFA-555 amp and a Conrad-Johnson PV-7 pre-amp. I can testify that was far and away the worst personal experience of non-synergy in my life. I made the mistake of blaming the pre-amp. Only a few years ago did I recognize the value of synergy and stop blaming one or the other piece for being at fault.
It goes back to the need of all audio fans to make sure they get to have in-home experience with any new piece of equipment they purchase.
A$$A-Pub
17-02-2008, 01:28
Synergy is one of the most difficult points of audio, as it depends so much on individual experiences. The difficulty is that it it incredibly rare for two people to have the same set of mixed components. Therefore, the ability to depend on others experiences lessons tremendously.
In all my years in audio and on the various audio forums I have never chatted with another person who had the same setup of an Adcom GFA-555 amp and a Conrad-Johnson PV-7 pre-amp. I can testify that was far and away the worst personal experience of non-synergy in my life. I made the mistake of blaming the pre-amp. Only a few years ago did I recognize the value of synergy and stop blaming one or the other piece for being at fault.
It goes back to the need of all audio fans to make sure they get to have in-home experience with any new piece of equipment they purchase.
The Grand Wazoo
08-05-2011, 23:25
From The Grave
So what does the membership know about this subject that wasn't mentioned back then?
'Peaches and Cream' or 'Dog's Dinner' - what's the key to finding the magic recipe?
Synergy is everything. You can't take a load of award-winning components and hope to make a good sounding system. Home demos and careful system building are a must. This is why component reviews are only a guide as their performance will depend on other aspects of the system, as well as the room they are placed in.
Thing Fish
08-05-2011, 23:36
I haven't read the whole thread but its obvious to me that regardless what equipment you own the room plays a very important part.
As an ex studio recording engineer (starlight express etc...) this is so apparent its not even funny.
People spend a fortune on components but neglect the room!!!! Crazy.
Components obviously play an important part but the room plays an equal part.
Rather than spending several hundred pounds on a cable or a mains conditioner. Spend a few hundred pounds on your room! this will stand you in good stead whatever upgrade you choose.
A bad room is a bad room regardless what you are playing in it.
You can spout all the crap you like but those who know, know...
Rather than spending several hundred pounds on a cable or a mains conditioner. Spend a few hundred pounds on your room! this will stand you in good stead whatever upgrade you choose.
Yep, totally with you on the importance of room treatment.
Rare Bird
09-05-2011, 00:13
I'm not into stereo's like you guys so never had a problem really.
Look people - mono guy! :)
Source first: start with a good room in the first place, and you won't need to 'treat' it much! ;)
It's one of the reasons why I'd never live in a modern house. Martin certainly gets a good sound in his room (and modern house), for lots of reasons, not least of which is because he's successfully addressed the issue of room treatment.
However, in my experience, very few rooms in modern homes are as acoustically optimal as those in older properties, with their massively thick and solid walls, and often non-rectangular shaped rooms, with wooden beams, etc, breaking up standing waves.
I'm not saying that the sound I get in my room wouldn't be even better after using some room treatment (although I'm not exactly sure where whatever it was would go), but I get a superb sound in there now, with having done bugger all in terms of room treatment, simply through achieving equipment synergy and using very effective equipment supports (in terms of how they deal with sinking vibration).
However, speaker/room interaction is the single most important factor in obtaining a good sound from a hi-fi system. No equipment, stands or cables (or even 'fancy' room treatment) can turn a bad room into a good one.
When we next move house, one of the most important considerations will be it having a suitable room to put the system in. Having lived with suspended wooden floors (having my system upstairs in the house) for the last 10 years, I'd like to try a big room with a solid floor downstairs, for a change :)
Marco.
Thing Fish
09-05-2011, 00:46
I recently spent a few days addressing my room. Acoustic panels, floor screws and the like. and i would suggest i got the same upgrade as changing an amp or cartridge. Now i don't expect sceptics to agree but don't poo poo it because you don't agree. Just try it and hear the results.
I'm not saying that I don't agree, Dave - in fact I very much agree with you! :)
All I'm saying is that if you have a good room to start with, then the need to 'treat' it isn't as critical. In that scenario, you may in fact obtain a bigger sonic improvement by spending the money instead on the actual system components and ancillaries (as I have).
Glad you've had some good results with your recent room treatment. It's very satisfying when you achieve a significant upgrade with little expenditure :cool:
Marco.
"It's my view that one of the reasons why many people are dissatisfied with the performance of their hi-fi systems is because not enough care is taken with component and cable selection in terms of sonic presentation and thus how each item knits together (or not) to form a musical whole. If this isn't done properly then the system is ultimately unrewarding as a tool for appreciating music at its best.
And the so-called ‘bargain’ buys on EBay, and trying to successfully piece together a mish-mash of disparate components, are to blame for much of this dissatisfaction! But more on that later...
Marco."
I think you are absolutely right, again.
I believe that a lot of my dissatisfaction and frustration with some of my previous expensive systems consisting of very good individual parts stemmed from a lack of synergy.
The reasons for this were manifold.
Suffice it to say that when I finally lucked into some gear very specifically designed to come together as satisfying systems, I was much happier.
I think wrong cable choices probably play a big part.
And the ebay, audiogon mentality, as you say.
But there are others, too.
Sometimes the problem is simply a lack of enough first hand experience with a variety of equipment.
No real substitute for that.
I would say listen to manufacturers recommendations on things like cable matching ,at least to begin.
And I agree that well put together systems shouldn't and don't usually need much room treatment. If you need a lot, some wrong choices have been made upstream.
Narrow dispersion speakers help there,too.
Hi Cliff,
Glad you agree. Basically, I'm dead against any form of what I call 'bandage application' in audio....
Got a bright sounding system? No problem - mask the effect with some dull sounding cables. Job done.
Does your CDP player sound hard and thin? No problem - mask the effect with a warm and coloured sounding tube output stage. Job done.
Got some shit recordings in your music collection? No problem - mask their effect by using an amp with tone controls (or a graphic equaliser). Job done.
Does that supermarket soup you're eating taste bland? No problem - mask the effect by adding some salt and pepper. Job done.
Got a crap sounding room? No problem - mask the effect with some room treatment! Job done.
You get the idea ;)
Where possible, I prefer to tackle issues at source, without the need to apply a 'bandage'.
Unfortunately though, when it comes to rooms, most folk are stuck with what they've got, and so effective room treatment, where a hi-fi system is used, can be a MAJOR sonic upgrade.
Marco.
I get where you're coming from Marco but the stark truth is that room selection is something of a compromise when considering a house purchase. I did check the room when I was viewing the empty house but it had reverberation and flutter echo issues. However, good dimensions and a concrete floor convinced me that it would respond to treatment, and indeed it did.
Come retirement, or a lottery win, I'll be able to go for an older property with an even better room :)
I'm with you on that, Martin, but I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from :)
When it comes to most areas of the sound reproduction chain, unless absolutely necessary, applying a 'bandage' is a cop out!
Marco.
Marco,
I really agree a lot with what you are saying.
For a while now I have been of the mind that source is king.
Start with the best source I would usually say.
But then I had to downgrade my system considerably, hugely in terms of dollars spent. I sold most everything, including source, but kept my speakers.
And now I am continually surprised at how good the system still sounds, and, as I tell my wife, it is because of the speakers, mainly.
Hard to come up with absolutes in audio, it seems.:scratch:
But also I guess I still have some synergy going, which has helped. The challenge has been integrating the Technics sl 1200 into the system as a synergistic component. It is working, and the process (of upgrades and modifications) is interesting and instructive. And fun. Did I mention that?:)
Cliff
Upgrading the SL1200 is always fun. The good thing about it is, it can also bring amazingly good sound quality to your system. I am constantly surprised at how much more the Techie can reveal, depending on what has been done to it. It must be one of the most upgradeable components ever.
"It must be one of the most upgradeable components ever."
Yes, I think you might have something there.
It is a marvel to me that so much musicality or performance can be coaxed out of a TT which starts off so humbly, in its purely stock form.
As to Marco's apparent incipient thesis regarding synergy and "bandages", after a little thought I will just posit that, although I agree with the direction I think he his heading, maybe in reality what I believe is that most if not almost all recorded music is recorded/consumed in formats which are inherently too bright, too stark, or just amusical; and that in reality what is needed to more fully enjoy home audio are systems which reintroduce the "bandage" of musicality in an artful and persuassive way.
We need synergistically conceived whole system audio bandages to cover the wounds inflicted on recorded music, if we really want to enjoy music for its own sake and not for the sound.
That's ok as a viewpoint and I understand that many (most) users don't know room treatment from Swahili. However, there is scope to further approach the true sound on the recording and that involves stopping your room from joining in and introducing further colourations.
Do one test for me, Andr'e. Stand in the middle of your room and snap your fingers. What do you hear?
Rare Bird
09-05-2011, 13:01
I hear a dead atmosphere like it's suppose to be
Do one test for me, Andr'e. Stand in the middle of your room and snap your fingers. What do you hear?
The banging on the walls from the old b*stards next door, because the noise is too loud!! :lolsign:
;)
Marco.
I hear a dead atmosphere like it's suppose to be
No reverb, no flutter echo? You were doing it in the quiet? If so, then you have a very well damped room, which is unusual.
Rare Bird
09-05-2011, 18:37
No reverb, no flutter echo? You were doing it in the quiet? If so, then you have a very well damped room, which is unusual.
I do it's very heavily furnished, the wall behind the listerning sofa is one big rug
I see a lot of comments on room acoustics and ways to improve it. Also someone was mentioning the difference between old and new houses.
Mostly the difference, apart from materials, is in dimensions. Old houses often are built according to the "Golden Rule". And some audio designers when designing a loudspeaker cabinet still use that Golden Rule.
When talking with architects one might find that the young generation don't even know about the Golden Rule and its application in house building.
John
Old houses often are built according to the "Golden Rule". And some audio designers when designing a loudspeaker cabinet still use that Golden Rule.
Agreed, John. I think mine is pretty close to the golden rule except for the ceiling, which always seems lower in modern houses. Another interesting point is how you fire your speakers, whether along the length or across the short side. I have done the latter for a while now as I find side reflections more damaging and harder to deal with than other room problems and prefer to keep the side walls away from the soundstage.
For room treatment, Acoustic Sciences (TubeTraps) are the best in the business. You can send them room drawings, dimensions and speaker placement and they will do a full analysis for you with product and positioning recommendations. They did this for me and made mine in a material of my selection to match the room. Not cheap, but no more expensive than one of my system components.
http://www.tubetrap.com/
Reid Malenfant
10-05-2011, 19:14
Actually it's known more commonly as the golden ratio ;)
Room dimensions of 0.62:1:1.62 or if you like 1 to 1.61 to 2.61 will result in far less standing waves :)
Thing Fish
10-05-2011, 22:36
What about the spinosa effect. Not to mention the golden calf phenomenon...?
You guys haven't thought of everything have you?
There are so many considerations it seems almost impossible to keep up!!!
Hi Cliff,
maybe in reality what I believe is that most if not almost all recorded music is recorded/consumed in formats which are inherently too bright, too stark, or just amusical; and that in reality what is needed to more fully enjoy home audio are systems which reintroduce the "bandage" of musicality in an artful and persuassive way.
That's rather insightful - I like it! :)
With me, I just try to use my experience and judgement of what real instruments and voices should sound like, and replicate that effect in my system.
I shun artifice whenever I detect it in equipment or ancillaries in favour of what I perceive as realism or accuracy, and I believe that I have achieved good results.
This is why, for example, I would never use an amp with tone controls (sorry Andre! ;)), as to my ears, any superficial 'improvement' gained with poor recordings would always be outweighed by the increased distortion imposed by the effect of the tone controls...
Quite simply, the 'sound' of tone controls would bother me far more than the deficiencies of any poor recordings. Therefore, I let the music speak for itself, regardless of recording quality, and use kit that allows even bad recordings to be enjoyable.
With audio, I will always seek to keep the signal as pure as possible, and dislike equipment, speakers or cables which has a distinctive sonic signature.
I'm a perfectionist at heart, and purist - first and foremost. And therefore, as a music lover, I appreciate hearing the talent of my favourite performers and musicians reproduced as faithfully as possible, and with the minimum of artifice :cool:
Marco.
What about the spinosa effect. Not to mention the golden calf phenomenon...?
Que?
This is why, for example, I would never use an amp with tone controls (sorry Andre! ;)), as to my ears, any superficial 'improvement' gained with poor recordings would always be outweighed by the increased distortion imposed by the effect of the tone controls...
I'm right with you, Marco. I've lived without tone controls since my early twenties and have never missed them. You can't make a bad recording sound any better by frigging with the frequency spectrum, best just to reproduce it as cleanly as you can and enjoy what comes through.
Ammonite Audio
11-05-2011, 06:49
I'm right with you, Marco. I've lived without tone controls since my early twenties and have never missed them. You can't make a bad recording sound any better by frigging with the frequency spectrum, best just to reproduce it as cleanly as you can and enjoy what comes through.
I'll agree with you up to a point; however tinkering with the DSP settings in my Lyngdorf TDA2200 amp has shown that modest frequency domain adjustments can correct errors made in the recording/mastering etc, and can improve listening pleasure. Of course. DSP is a much finer tool than tone controls usually are, but it's nice to have some option of user adjustment.
The best use of DSP for me, though, is in applying specific corrections to vinyl equalisation curves typically used by many labels. I'm amazed at how many do not conform to IEC/RIAA standard. It's a bit difficult to perform the same sorts of adjustments with simple tone controls.
It’s tempting to dismiss system synergy as a load of Hi Fi sales patter but in my experience it matters more than the price/performance of the individual components.
Its one of the reasons I’m fairly dismissive of the Hi Fi Press/equipment reviews and even component forum advice.
The fact is, no one knows what’s going to work for you. It doesn’t matter how many bits of kit, or combinations of, they’ve heard. The point about synergy that is often overlooked is it doesn’t stop at the end of the component chain; you and your environment are a major link of this chain.
Half the battle is knowing what type of sound you want, very few people seem to be clear about this.
There are some components that are unlikely to be electrically compatible with each other and others that collective experience has reduced to improbable compatibility.
My goal for example isn’t quite the same as Marco’s. I don’t really care if a recording doesn’t match my perception of the live instruments, mainly because I accept that what I am listening to is a recording which has probably had a great many alterations made to it during the recording process. Also, I’m not convinced I, or anyone else would find the sound of live instruments reproduced in stereo in their listening environment a pleasant experience.
My aim is to have a system that provides a pleasing experience of an illusion; if detail and outright fidelity suffers a bit on route then no worries. It’s a bit like a computer constructed work of art, it may be technically perfect but often it’s the imperfections that attract.
That’s what system synergy can achieve, attractive audio.
I absolutely agree with John (Welder) on this. In my opinion,reviews,even if the reviewer is knowledgable and trustworth,are meaningless,even though we all tend to dissagree lol
What matters most,is a good dealer who can and will help you setup a good system.
Remember,what matters most is synergy and home audition after you first listen to a system you believe you'll like at home and when you bring that system at home,make sure your dealer will let you keep for more than just a weekend.From personal experience
most components need many days to perform at their best even if they're well run-in.
Once you remove a component from the mains and keep it a few days off,it will take many days to "sing" again.Just rememeber,everythig in a dealer's room sound good.What matters,is how they sound in your own room !
As for "synergy" per se,let me give you a simple example and remember,we're not talkinf here about if a certain component is bad or good sounding.Two of my moving coil cartridges and two phono stages were almost state-of-the-art in their days (Koetsu urushi sky blue and vanDenHull Black Beaty , E.A.R. 324 and Tom Evan's The Groove.
Remember,i said ALMOST state-of-the-art,so,no comments please :) The Koetsu works wonder with the 324 but sounds terrible the "groove",no wonder here since the "groove" was factory setup for the Black beauty.The strange thing is,The VDH sounds terrible with the 324 but absolutely gorgeous with the "groove",again for the above reason.
Perhaps it doeasn't like transformers but nevertheless,the point is,you simply can't take 2 good componets,put the together and expect to seduce you.This is what synergy is. In other words,the exact opposite is : component missmatch.
I let the music speak for itself, regardless of recording quality, and use kit that allows even bad recordings to be enjoyable.
With audio, I will always seek to keep the signal as pure as possible, and dislike equipment, speakers or cables which has a distinctive sonic signature.
I'm a perfectionist at heart, and purist - first and foremost. And therefore, as a music lover, I appreciate hearing the talent of my favourite performers and musicians reproduced as faithfully as possible, and with the minimum of artifice :cool:
Marco.
Yes, I, too, have chosen equipment which will allow the music I enjoy the most, and which almost invariably is not the best recorded, to sound good to me. In the past I made mistakes and got to a point where excellent recordings of "adult" music(think audiophile approved) often sounded amazingly real. It could be quite impressive and the audiophile in me often marveled at what he had put together.
But my inner music lover began to rebel. The music i had grown up with almost without exception fell short of satisfying or just plain sucked on that system.
So I went warm and mostly analog. I definitely achieved better synergy, with things like cables from my equipment's manufacturer or approved by same. And the same with speakers and amp.
But I also embraced strategies, or prejudices to some, which feed the warmth and musicality I desire, like wood and lots of it, and alnico, and nos tubes, etc.
Works for me and I really enjoy all of my music now, but there is what some would call artifice there, and the best audiophile recordings don't and didn't sound quite as real as before. But I am ok with that.
I can just put on my Big Country album and enjoy.
I never really liked "Favorite Chinese Instrumentals" that much anyway.
Marco,
I just want to comment on some cables which might be of interest to you and might be a very synergistic match to your system and tastes.
I don't know your thinking on cables, and I know many are opposed to elevating their importance in system building, but I see that you are running some Tannoy drivers and know you really enjoy the A23 SUTs, so I am talking about the A23 cables-- as you might have already guessed.
In my experience, they are very good, very musical, and totally lacking in artifice. Apparently everything Keith makes is very good (at least in my experience it is), and both the speaker cables and interconnects are no exceptions.
Don't want to bash here, but my switch from Nordost Valhalla to A23 speaker cable was a very important step on my road to audio happiness.
I can just imagine that a set of the speaker cables would really mesh with something called a copper amp and speakers employing Tannoys, for instance
Just a thought.
Cheers,
Cliff
Hi Cliff,
Good call! I've thought about that before when I've looked at Keith's website, so at some point I may well try the speaker cables, although the Van Den Huls I have at the moment are rather good, and have been carefully chosen with synergy in mind :)
Trust me, there isn't one part of my system, even down to the choice of solder used in the WBT plugs on my interconnects, which hasn't been very carefully considered ;)
Incidentally, I totally agree with your sentiments above - there's a big difference between obtaining a 'hi-fi sound', and one that resembles real music. For some, that can be quite a difficult thing to understand, let alone achieve.
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Oh, I am certain you have everything carefully matched and well thought out--that is apparent from your system listing and many of your thoughts and comments I have read here.
But I am a proponent of Keith's works and do feel that you might really enjoy some of his other goodies.
I think the speaker cables allow for more body to come through than maybe many other "high-end" cables and, probably most importantly, are very balanced, not seeming to favor or highlight any frequency spectrum.
Also I personally believe that a significant part of their "magic" simply comes from the connectors he uses which are the Z-plugs, low mass, large surface area, as you probably know.
His connectors are all low mass, which is one of their secrets to success, I believe.
One comment about the T1 SUT, if you don't mind.
It is unbelievably good. Compared to my previous SUT at the time, which was/is really, really good, the T1 was like inserting a new amp into the system which has very similar sound/flavor to the original, but with much better and bigger power supply and reserves, if you know what I mean.
I am very limited in audio funds these days, but I look forward to eventually getting an A23 Denon SUT and maybe moving up to the EMT as a nice big slice of the magical sound I previously had with the SPU and T1.
Cheers, Cliff
What about the spinosa effect. Not to mention the golden calf phenomenon...?
You guys haven't thought of everything have you?
There are so many considerations it seems almost impossible to keep up!!!
You can find some explanation in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
You may find a lot of buildings and houses being built according to the Golden Ratio (or Rule). Also lots of musical instruments are constructed that way (mostly using the pentagram).
Some loudspeaker designers, like myself, used it as well.
The GR is a "natural" relation having influences on what we "see" and "hear".
John
I agree with the system matching but as for the cables i find no difference and i have tried many.
I think I always notice a difference anytime I change cables. I don't think I've ever thought 'That sounds exactly the same'. One of us must be wrong I guess;)
Do you still think you would know if someone changed them without you knowing?
Thing Fish
12-05-2011, 17:59
What matters most,is a good dealer who can and will help you setup a good system.
Remember,what matters most is synergy and home audition after you first listen to a system you believe you'll like at home and when you bring that system at home,make sure your dealer will let you keep for more than just a weekend.From personal experience
most components need many days to perform at their best even if they're well run-in.
This is exactly what happened to me. I was allowed to take equipment home to try. The dealer even came home to help me set it up. He also advised me on upgrades and called me when something second hand came in as he knew I wasn't a millionaire.
Which dealer if you dont mind me asking.
This is exactly what happened to me. I was allowed to take equipment home to try. The dealer even came home to help me set it up. He also advised me on upgrades and called me when something second hand came in as he knew I wasn't a millionaire.
Sounds like a good one.
Thing Fish
12-05-2011, 18:11
Unfortunatly the shop closed some time ago as he retired. It was called 'Audio Venue' and was in church street Crystal palace.
Church street :eek:
I used to run a shop on the upper norwood triangle and Church street was full of junk shops and charity shops. Im amazed it once had a hifi shop.
Thing Fish
12-05-2011, 18:25
Small world!!! It was a great shop run by two guys, Ian and I forget the others name?
I can't remember exactly when they closed but it would be around 1994. That said I could be years out as my brain seems to fail me often these days!
It was a great shop run by two guys, Ian and I forget the others name?
Matilda.
Reid Malenfant
12-05-2011, 18:33
:lolsign:
Only on a Saturday, though! :kiss:
Marco.
Do you still think you would know if someone changed them without you knowing?
I think that after a while I would notice the change. A while might be up to 20 albums and then I think would be pretty sure something was different. That's only speculation though, you make a fair point.
Sometimes macca i wish i could hear a difference so it would give me something to fiddle with but i just don't.
Only once have i heard something and that was changing a cheaping and putting a chord cobra 2 in it's place micromega to naim amp.
If someone were to try Nordost SPM speaker cable in their system and then switch to cheap, plain fat copper wire cable and say they hear no difference, they are either deaf, delusional, or have the most unresolving audio equipment on the planet. In my opinion, nothing personal to anyone, etc... ;)
Cliff
Sometimes macca i wish i could hear a difference so it would give me something to fiddle with but i just don't.
Only once have i heard something and that was changing a cheaping and putting a chord cobra 2 in it's place micromega to naim amp.
Depends what kit you are using I suppose. This is only speculation but I think the Croft pre I am using shows up every little tweak, maybe, and I am only speculating , because it is such a simple, low component design.
My philosophy is that if you don't feel the need to fiddle and you are playing a lot of music and loving it then that's good. If you aint , that's bad. And if you are not happy and you have to fiddle and it doesn't make any difference then maybe you are not fiddling enough?
If someone were to try Nordost SPM speaker cable in their system and then switch to cheap, plain fat copper wire cable and say they hear no difference
Some might say the cheap cable sounds better :)
I can't say I've ever liked Nordost cable much. Far too edgy.
But anyone should hear the difference, it would be obvious, which was my point.
I know Nordost gets a bad rap in a lot of places--and i don't use it anymore--but spm with a nice 300b amp and the right speakers could be and was spectacular in a lot of ways. It was the fastest sounding cable I ever used and, to get back somewhat to the theme of the thread, WAS a synergistic match with my amp at the time--but not really with my speakers:(
Cliff
Yes, point taken Cliff. I agree that you certainly would hear the difference and I can also see how Nordost and 300B amps would work well together.
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