View Full Version : Valve experiences (1976 to 1987) The golden years? Err no, not necessarily!
Neil McCauley
11-07-2008, 10:06
Following a kind invitation by Marco, for which I thank him …….
A potted history of my exposure to, and my reactions to various valve amps between 1976 and 1988.
First exposure:
1976. Dave Berriman’s house. QUAD 57’s propped up on chairs, driven by a Radford ST-25 with a Linn / Grace / Supex. Probably a Radford pre too. Can’t remember. Heard Joan Armatrading singing ‘Willow’. Truly thought I was going to faint with the sheer majesty of the sound. She was in the room singing to me. Couldn’t see her though.
Me selling my first valve amplification:
Met the mercurial Antony Michaelson and his then business partner Mr. Austin. Attempted a hard sell on me. No need though because the majesty of the TVA-1 spoke for itself. Not the first time Mr. Michaelson misread me. Odd for such a perceptive man. Concluded I must have been giving out odd signals.
Soon became his UK #1 retailer. Noted that no two units sounded identical – but they all sounded great. Sold the TVA-1 Export too. Can’t remember if there was any true improvement over the standard version. Reliably was intermittently bad, or intermittently good – depending on your standpoint.
Started selling the TVA preamp. Dreadful. Build quality was shoddy. Relationship now coming to its inevitable end.
Enter please, Mr. Bill Beard:
Terrific power amps. Selling 3 a week at one point. P100 Stereo a minor classic. P100 monos a bona-fide full classic. Wonderful sound, beyond my powers of description. Stood comparison with anything from ARC and CJ at that point. And reliable too. The baby Beard P35 was just great.
Start using his pre amp. History repeating itself I think. Not very good at all. At least it didn’t fall apart! Seem to recall Mr. B and his company selling out to one of the McAlpine directors from the construction company of the same name – pending a re-launch. Can’t recall what happened after that.
Concluded that UK makers knew sod-all about designing state-of-the-art valve preamps. Power amps though, an entirely different situation.
Morning Crescent becomes a battleground, and me an unwitting pawn.
My shop Subjective Audio (2 Camden High Street) becomes the chosen site for repeated duelling between Absolute Sound (importers of Audio Research) and Automation Sciences – importers of Conrad Johnson. Ricardo really doesn’t want me to sell CJ. “It’s sheeeeet my friend” I believe Ricardo said. Jakob (Jacob?) Zelinger of Automation Sciences appears unconcerned at this point.
Position complicated by me being for Ricardo, Europe #1 for Krell, Magneplanar and Apogee and for Zelinger, Europe #1 for Burmester.
Considerable initial unreliability with ARC and CJ catalyses a cynicism re the benefits of selling (as distinct from listening to) valve gear from the USA.
Sell Douglas Adams (Hitchhikers Guide …) a £56k system in 1987. Magneplanar Tympani driven by ARC M-300 monoblocks and SP11. After hernia-inducing struggle with monster power amps (£10k the pair), they blow up as soon as they are switched on. Douglas very gracious. Me seriously pissed off, wondering why I didn’t sell him Meridian instead. Got it sorted eventually. Truly outstanding sound. Despite this, faith in valve gear not restored at all.
CJ versus ARC part #2:
Through my adored Magneplanar MG3a speakers and the respected rather than loved Apogee Scintillas, quickly discover that the mid range via the CJ units driven by CJ pre amps are greatly superior to ARC, but the CJ bass is soggy compared to the ARC. Zelinger agrees. Ricardo doesn’t.
Quickly discover the ARC SP11 is the most musical satisfying preamp I had ever heard, other than the Mark Levinson ML6a.
The die is cast. I give up selling ARC power amps and simultaneously give up selling Krell preamp because an ARC pre (any of their range) into any Krell power amp is instant and consistent magic. Ricardo seems perplexed. Wants me (naturally) to sell Krell preamps and ARC power amps. I resist. He seems happy with the increasingly massive payments though.
CJ limps on with me, but I sense Jakob is loosing his grip and/or enthusiasm. Eventually CJ sales dwindle to nothing with me.
Enter stage left, Mr. Tim Paravachini
I never dealt with this unusual individual. However to my dismay I discover that when up against his EAR mono valve power amps (509s I think) my Krells just don’t do it. They are more powerful, certainly – but they just don’t ‘communicate’ like the EAR amps do.
Err, now what?
CJ is now a non starter, no confidence in ARC power amps, Bill Beard is somewhere on a boat (apparently) in the Bahamas, and I have no valve power amps in my suite of tools. Oops. Antony Michaelson at this point is no longer in the valve business. Musical Fidelity is starting to get into its stride, so I go with that. Still no valves though.
History repeats itself – checkmate:
For some reason I neglect on this occasion to find out, prior to visiting a potential customer’s home, what equipment he was using. Stupidity or oversight. No matter though, because the experience proved pivotal re my valve retailing experience. Off I trundle to Putney Hill, Cortina Estate loaded to breaking point with allegedly state-of-the-art pre and power amps.
Entered the house and truly thought there was a string quartet playing somewhere in the house.
I enter the room. Quads and Radford, just like Dave Berriman’s set up all those years previously. And a Linn too. this time with a Mission arm with a wooden arm tube and a Supex SD-901 (surely one of the World’s great cartridges?). I don't even bother to unload my gear. No point at all. I explain why. The majesty of sound cannot, through what I have to offer, be improved. Customer, and not for the first time, seems amazed by my candour. Why lie, I wonder? Checkmate.
Which means that …
I , in 1986 face a dilemma. From a reliability standpoint, and a product inconsistency standpoint, I’ve had enough with valves. I’ve had it up to here (visualise my hand as far above my head as I can reach) On the other hand, done right, the quality of sound via valve amps is unsurpassed. Unusually for me, I fudge it.
I retain the SP11 for demo purposes, and everything else is either solid state or active speakers. And I check every customer to see if they are using a QUAD / Radford combo, or EAR power amps. If they have, then I politely decline the invitation to a home demo. And then I wonder what happened to Radford.
I then go into audio retailing limbo until 2005. My valve experiences after that, will follow on this forum in due course. In a nutshell though, my cynicism re valves is slowly but surely confounded, rather than compounded from 2005.
Hope you enjoyed that!
I'm off to Fairford Air Show on Saturday. Planes to carry weapons designed to kill people. That's really what it's all about.
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And this (IMHO) is the answer to the 'Why buy Vintage' thread....
I enter the room. Quads and Radford, just like Dave Berriman’s set up all those years previously. And a Linn too. this time with a Mission arm with a wooden arm tube and a Supex SD-901 (surely one of the World’s great cartridges?). I don even bother to unload my gear. No point at all. I explain why. The majesty of sound cannot, through what I have to offer, be improved. Checkmate.
Great piece Howard. Notice you just sarted selling valve based equipment again. Do you think reliability issues sorted I got a SAC Glowmaster and had no issues accept at start which was due to me and not the amp
Ps great story about the late Douglas Adams
Neil McCauley
11-07-2008, 11:15
Great piece Howard. Notice you just sarted selling valve based equipment again. Do you think reliability issues sorted I got a SAC Glowmaster and had no issues accept at start which was due to me and not the amp
Ps great story about the late Douglas Adams
As for reliability, too early to tell for me. Just re-entered the valve world by taking on Manley. Considering they picked me rather than anyone else in England, I'm rather pleased. Nothing gone wrong so far. Terrific sound. So i've invested a few grand in 2 more pieces, the 300B preamp and the Steelhead.
Re reliability, back in the 1980s I looked at valve amps like I looked at the Lotus Esprit Turbo. Great performance, but not every day! Better own two, if you can afford to, rather than one!
Looking back on the great sounding and unreliable valve amps of years gone by caused me to remember my own experiences with an Alfa 166 Super. Why the f**k didn't Alfa get Toyota to build the damn thing?
Bye for now.
---//---
Fascinating and entertaining stuff - Brilliant! :clap:
Ali Tait
11-07-2008, 18:10
Howard,interesting stuff! Relevant commentary on great-sounding commercial stuff that costs a bloody fortune and lasts five minutes.Yet another reason to DIY IMHO.I built a 300b PSE WAD kit amp several years ago,and it gave totally trouble-free service all the time I had it,despite all the tweaks I did.I now have a commercial Chinese 845 amp,which again has given trouble-free service despite all my tweaking for over a year now,and sounds superb.Your comments on the Alfa 166 confound me however.I had a 166 Lusso for several years.I can honestly say it was the best and most reliable car I've ever owned,and I've owned a few makes. Given I average around 50k a year,I reckon I've a good idea of which make of car is reliable.I bought it at four years old,and eventually scrapped it with just over 250,000 miles on the clock.It was still in excellent nick and ran just fine,and still had it's original exhaust and clutch! All the electrics still worked,and amazingly it had no rust at all.It was in need of a new clutch unsurprisingly,and a few other things which came to more than it was worth.So I scrapped it.No-one would have bought it with those miles on.I still miss it though.It was a superb driving machine IMHO.It put a grin on my face every time I drove it.Clarkson had it right in this instance,in that you can't call yourself a petrolhead until you've owned an Alfa :) Maybe I just got lucky?
Regards,Ali.
I'm just waiting for the day when Peter C gets round to reviving Radford.
Neil McCauley
11-07-2008, 18:34
I'm just waiting for the day when Peter C gets round to reviving Radford.
BUT ........ Can a revival really, really recapture the original magic?
Dr Bews (LFD), who knows a thing or two about this told me that in his view, based on observation and experience, the original sound of any amp, including his can ONLY be totally recaptured if the components used are the original ones rather than modern replacements. He includes even the solder in this observation. IMHO - a guru devoid of bullshit.
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A fascinating observation Howard, BUT, if I was wiling to put money on anyone reviving a brand with some success, it would be on Peter C.
On the few occasions I've dealt with him I can certainly say he is nothing but a true gentleman. I cannot imagine for a moment that he would revive the name of Radford unless he was able to do true justice to the name.
Just MHO of course.
Mike Reed
11-07-2008, 22:47
I echo Mike's comments, Howard. Wonderful brief history of early hifi retailing.
You mentioned T. de P. and his 509, but did you sell it, or simply audition it against Krell? They do have a reasonable reliability record, I believe, c.f. the other (U.S.) stuff you mentioned.
You stir my memory banks with 'Mornington Crescent' and 'Camden Town'. The latter, Chalk Farm and 'Appy 'Ampstead were where I lived in the sixties, during which period I worked for Laskys, and bought a Heathkit 12 inch speaker kit from nearly opposite in Tott. Ct. Rd. Great times.
sastusbulbas
12-07-2008, 07:09
Superb Howard,
Most of which I agree with myself, I found ARC to be more cohesive across the board than CJ, though I did think CJ offered good value with their lower cost PV10/MV55, until Arc did the LS7/VT60 combo.
My preference was also with valve amps, ARC, EAR and Sonic Frontiers, into solid state power amps. (Arc into Krell was my preference)
I still think I made a mistake selling my valve pre's and getting a solid state pre thinking synergy would prevail.
I still use a Krell KRC 3, and though I think it is very good, I think I would prefer an old ARC LS22 (without the remote) or even better an EAR 912 valve pre.
Valve power amps just never got on with my speakers (Kef R107), saying that if I ever get the opportunity and have the finances I would again look at EAR amplification. I would like an EAR valve pre/power in the bedroom instead of the Classe, though again my choice of bedroom speaker (late Rogers Studio 1) seems to favour the dry tight nature of the Classe bass, I feel they are well matched.
I also liked the part about the home demo, dealers of such nature are few and far between.
Do you know how long the customer kept his Quad/Radford system?
jandl100
12-07-2008, 15:20
Yup, a fascinating read, Howard. Thanks for that. :)
I had a pair of EAR 509/II in the lovely copper finish. TBH I wasn't that impressed with the sound - a bit lacking in rez, I thought. Nice overall 'musicality' though.
I had mine serviced by I can't remember who - and he said I was that close to being electrocuted as 1 of the set of many chassis screws was deliberately made shorter so as not to touch something live inside - and a previous chassis opener had not put the short screw back in the right hole.
What a crazy design. :mental:
Oh, and I thought my ARC SP11/2 was fair-to-middling at best. Maybe the Mk1 was better?
So I should get a Radford STA25 to go with my Quad 57s, then? Hmmm.
Currently using them with either a Krell KSA50 (mk1) or a pair of Chinese OTL monoblocks, all of which sound nice .... but (curiously & very surprisingly) not as nice as my John Bowers Active One speakers (which I have been 'reliably' informed go quack-quack-quack - although I can't hear that).
The Grand Wazoo
12-07-2008, 17:54
I have a Radford STA15, used it for years in my main system, driven by my ARC SP8 - it was pure magic.
I later used it in combination with a Levinson ML11. I had the Radford driving the mid & top & the ML11 driving the bass. That was sweet, but I missed the detail in the top end that the Levinson gave so the best configuration of all came with when I had the Mark Lev driving bass and treble & the Radford doing what it does best - that fabulous midrange.
I changed speakers for a bi instead of tri-wired model and lost the Radford to the 2nd system. One day, I'll get round to dragging it & the old tri-wired SD OBS speakers downstairs & do what was my ultimate aim at the time -My ML9 on the bass, ML11 on the treble and the Radford nestled between. I suspect it will make me seriously consider doing away with my current speakers & leaving it all in situ.
The Radfords are serious amps - no-one should underestimate them - least of all with Quads or LS3/5a's attached (well, the latter if decent mid-range with no bass is your thing, that is!).
anthonyTD
12-07-2008, 20:39
well done howard,
and very interesting, i remember doing a somewhat amusing comparison involving one of the big krell stereo power amps and a little single ended intergrated valve amp that i used to build. needless to say, the guy who owned the krell couldnt beleive what he was hearing when i hooked up the little 3 watt per channel amp to his kef refrence speakers, compared to the krell, the sound stage was huge, and the placement of instruments, and vividness of voices was amazing! needles to say, he gave up on solid state amps after that [about 10 years now] and now uses one of my copper amps.
finaly i would just like to point out to those few who class all hi fi dealers as the spawn of satan, [you know who you are] in my opinion as long as there are guys like howard' in the trade people stand a real chance of going into a hi fi dealership and actually coming away with something that cuts the mustard...
anthony...:)
jandl100
13-07-2008, 07:45
finaly i would just like to point out to those few who class all hi fi dealers as the spawn of satan, [you know who you are] in my opinion as long as there are guys like howard' in the trade people stand a real chance of going into a hi fi dealership and actually coming away with something that cuts the mustard...
anthony...:)
Yep, but for every Good Guy like Howard, there's a whole passle of weasly barstewards out there who'd lie thru their teeth and happily sell their own Granny for a bit of profit. ;) [you know who you are!]
But yes, there are quite a few Good Guys, too.
I had a pair of EAR 509/II in the lovely copper finish. TBH I wasn't that impressed with the sound - a bit lacking in rez, I thought. Nice overall 'musicality' though.
.
Can you expalin what you mean by a bit lacking in REZ
I understand the 509's have quite a unique sound for a valve amplifier. Has all the impact, speed, dynamics and extended frequency range of valves whilst retaining the ephonics and ability to accomodate the high voltage swings of valves. Therefore a compromise for those who want their cake and eat it!!
For me the typical valve sound i've experienced from many of the so called top of the range valves amps has been soggy bass and rolled off treble. A rather thick muddled sound in some respects. I think it really depends on the design and build quality of the amp itself. I have some very poor experiences with these Chinese imports, poor quality, finish and sound quality
So I should get a Radford STA25 to go with my Quad 57s, then? Hmmm.
Currently using them with either a Krell KSA50 (mk1) or a pair of Chinese OTL monoblocks, all of which sound nice .... but (curiously & very surprisingly) not as nice as my John Bowers Active One speakers (which I have been 'reliably' informed go quack-quack-quack - although I can't hear that).
I used to have a full Radford ST 25 many years ago and often regret selling it. I was seduced by Quad to move to their solid state offerings such as the Quad 303 and 405. The real benifit I found was a much lower noise floor. I thought if Quad are moving in this direction with their pedigree it must be the way to go.
So now i've taken the plunge back into valves and just bought an EAR V20 integrated. The V20 is slated by Tim D'P as a small integrated version of his 509's. I believe the 509's are in such demand in some markets that a special edition is available.
Howards comments regarding Tim D'P are interesting as I beleive he does not come over as a shrinking violet!! Like many talented people in all spheres of life you either hit it off or not, a love or hate relationship. Tim is a firm proponent of valves right through the recording and replay chain and if you listen to some of the recordings made by companies who use his kit, he does have a point. Glorious absolutely glorious.
Does anyone have any experience of the American Atma-Sphere valve amplifiers. They have been in business for about 30 years and produce and produced triode, class A, balanced OTL amplifiers
http://www.atma-sphere.com/
Ive also recently come a across a very small Australian company hand building valve amps and preamps. Reputed to be excellent sound and value for money http://www.supratek.biz/
anthonyTD
13-07-2008, 16:16
Yep, but for every Good Guy like Howard, there's a whole passle of weasly barstewards out there who'd lie thru their teeth and happily sell their own Granny for a bit of profit. ;) [you know who you are!]
But yes, there are quite a few Good Guys, too.
hi jerry,
i agree, thats why its so good to read that there are still some dealers out there who have some morals left! but as you say, they do seem to be very far and few between these days.
anthony.:)
Ive also recently come a across a very small Australian company hand building valve amps and preamps. Reputed to be excellent sound and value for money http://www.supratek.biz/
Yuk, more wood :(
You don't like wood, Hans? Nice wood on hi-fi is sexy :)
Marco.
LOL. Note how I said, "nice" wood - there is 'wood' and there is wood (nicely polished, beautiful graining, etc) such as the Rosewood finish on my Spendor SP100s :)
Some stuff is OTT, though, and yes Italian designs often come into that category!
Marco.
LOL. Note how I said, "nice" wood - there is 'wood' and there is wood (nicely polished, beautiful graining, etc) such as the Rosewood finish on my Spendor SP100s :)
Some stuff is OTT, though, and yes Italian designs often come into that category!
Marco.
Or very Bang & Olufson.....
The Chinese are using quite a lot of wood on their HiFi
I seem to remember when i first started in hifi in 1900 and frozen to death wood was obligatory... teak usually!
1900 eh? You seem to be wearing quite well! :lolsign:
I hate teak.
Marco.
1900 eh? You seem to be wearing quite well! :lolsign:
I hate teak.
Marco.
Yes apart from the ear trumpet and the Zimmer frame.... not too bad at all. I think i'm about Howards vintage.
It's a good vintage, rather like that of a fine Claret.
I'll be adding more to this discussion tomorrow in terms of Howard's excellent observations :)
Marco.
jandl100
16-07-2008, 07:03
Can you expalin what you mean by a bit lacking in REZ
Lacking in resolution. Other valve amps I have had (and still own) do a better job in detail retrieval making the 509/II sound a bit vague and amorphous. It isn't the ultimate detail machine which means that the soundstage too is vague and ill-defined (relatively speaking). The overall presentation significantly fails to let through some of the excitement and pizzazz that is in the music.
I understand the 509's have quite a unique sound for a valve amplifier. Has all the impact, speed, dynamics and extended frequency range of valves whilst retaining the ephonics and ability to accomodate the high voltage swings of valves.
Oh dear. I seem to have trodden on someone's toes here and insulted a near relative who they love dearly! :)
No kit is perfect, and imho where the EAR 509/II falls down is in some of the very areas that you mention as being its strong points!
Yes, 'impact' is pretty good and the bass is strong and fairly well defined.
I don't think the 509/II has a unique sound at all - ime it's a rather old fashioned valve amp sound. Perhaps I would call it the 'missing link' between the old fashioned soggy-bass, moderate rez mids and smoothed off treble of all too many early valve jobbies and the new generation of higher rez valve amps that can go face to face with the best solid state and beat them on 'musicality'. "A bit on the slow side, but sturdy" might be a decent summary of my view on the 509/II.
I have no idea where I would place your EAR V20 within the valve sound pantheon as I have no experience of it. It would certainly seem to be a totally different animal to the 509/II.
All the above are just my personal opinions based on fairly extensive experience of quite a few bits of kit. :)
jandl100
16-07-2008, 09:22
hi jerry,
i agree, thats why its so good to read that there are still some dealers out there who have some morals left! but as you say, they do seem to be very far and few between these days.
anthony.:)
Yep, in my time as a hifi buyer I've been lied to, financially swindled and (I am pretty certain) knowingly sold faulty goods - all by established dealers.
Definitely one of the reasons I rarely buy kit from a dealer these days.
Yep, in my time as a hifi buyer I've been lied to, financially swindled and (I am pretty certain) knowingly sold faulty goods - all by established dealers.
Same here Jerry.
And all by the same person,who will be celebrating (next year) 30 years of ripping people off.
Lacking in resolution. Other valve amps I have had (and still own) do a better job in detail retrieval making the 509/II sound a bit vague and amorphous. It isn't the ultimate detail machine which means that the soundstage too is vague and ill-defined (relatively speaking). The overall presentation significantly fails to let through some of the excitement and pizzazz that is in the music.
I don't think the 509/II has a unique sound at all - ime it's a rather old fashioned valve amp sound. Perhaps I would call it the 'missing link' between the old fashioned soggy-bass, moderate rez mids and smoothed off treble of all too many early valve jobbies and the new generation of higher rez valve amps that can go face to face with the best solid state and beat them on 'musicality'. "A bit on the slow side, but sturdy" might be a decent summary of my view on the 509/II.
LOL. I don't know what was going on there, Jerry, but the above is *so* diametrically opposed to the sound of (original 1978) 509s in my mate's system (with DBLs and a Croft pre) that it beggars belief :lol:
Quite frankly, I don't know what to say... Which is somewhat unusual for me!
I agree wholeheartedly with you though about:
the new generation of higher rez valve amps that can go face to face with the best solid state and beat them on 'musicality'
That's exactly what my Yaqin does. However, in my experience 509s don't sound anything like you describe. In my mate's system they are a bit 'dry' and clinical due to their studio pedigree, but are also very lively, detailed, neutral and punchy - a million miles away from the world of "soggy bass" and "smoothed off treble" you have alluded to...
Marco.
Name and shame...
Marco.
Don't know if I should,on an open forum.
I bought a Pathos phonostage (battery powered) and had it running for a week or so.
It sounded seriously bad.Broken.
When I returned it to the shop he said the power cord I was using to recharge the battery's was probably at fault.
:scratch:
Told me one of his JPS mains cords at just under £400.00 would solve the problem.
:lol:
Needless to say this never cured anything.
Next up was his £800.00 i/c's.
A bargain at just £125.00
:lolsign:
Then he gave me a s/h Trichord (can't remember the model) which he claimed was over £1800.00 'new'.
That was broken as well.
In fact years before this,about 1999/2000 or so I bought an Audio Note CD player from him,this was also broken.The drawer sometimes wouldn't go back in the player,so pretty useless.
He told me the problem wasn't his but I should contact Audio Note directly.
When I reminded him who I worked for he soon changed his tune and gave me a different CD player.
Unfortunately,a few months later,Audio Note called to say my CD player was now fixed,could they have my address to send it to,I replied too quickly that it wasn't mine anymore.:doh:
Anyway,I'm sure you can work out who it is by now.
Neil McCauley
16-07-2008, 11:21
Don't know if I should,on an open forum.
I bought a Pathos phonostage (battery powered) and had it running for a week or so.
It sounded seriously bad.Broken.
When I returned it to the shop he said the power cord I was using to recharge the battery's was probably at fault.
:scratch:
Told me one of his JPS mains cords at just under £400.00 would solve the problem.
:lol:
Needless to say this never cured anything.
Next up was his £800.00 i/c's.
A bargain at just £125.00
:lolsign:
Then he gave me a s/h Trichord (can't remember the model) which he claimed was over £1800.00 'new'.
That was broken as well.
In fact years before this,about 1999/2000 or so I bought an Audio Note CD player from him,this was also broken.The drawer sometimes wouldn't go back in the player,so pretty useless.
He told me the problem wasn't his but I should contact Audio Note directly.
When I reminded him who I worked for he soon changed his tune and gave me a different CD player.
Unfortunately,a few months later,Audio Note called to say my CD player was now fixed,could they have my address to send it to,I replied too quickly that it wasn't mine anymore.:doh:
Anyway,I'm sure you can work out who it is by now.
Good clues and a diverting piece of detective work. Yes, I'm pretty sure I know who you mean. Frankly though, very probably not worth the hassle of naming and shaming. I say this not because he is a fellow retailer, but because you and some of my other customers have learned a bitter lesson and the clues are clear. Life's too short. Re-reading this, looks to me like I'm losing my 'edge' - or maybe I'm just growing up a bit. Hard to tell. Hmm.
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LOL. All is now clear, David. Jumping JACK flash ;)
Howard, you're losing nothing, old chap. You are quality, sheer quality, my man!
Marco.
LOL. All is now clear, David. Jumping JACK flash ;)
Marco.
Aye,and he's full of 'Gas Gas Gas'.
jandl100
16-07-2008, 12:45
LOL. I don't know what was going on there, Jerry, but the above is *so* diametrically opposed to the sound of (original 1978) 509s in my mate's system (with DBLs and a Croft pre) that it beggars belief :lol:
Well, you have been known to praise my listening skills .... what was it? .... ah yes, my description of Telefunken 12AX7 tubes. :lol:
And I never said the 509/II had soggy bass and rolled off treble - I described it as inbetween such antiquated beasts and the modern hi-rez valve amps (such as your Yaqin and my OTLs, both Chinese and excellent!).
I stand by my description of the 509/II ;)
It has been known for the Mk2 of anything to be a step (or 2) backwards from the original. Maybe that's the case with the EAR 509. :scratch:
jandl100
16-07-2008, 12:49
LOL. All is now clear, David. Jumping JACK flash ;)
Howard, you're losing nothing, old chap. You are quality, sheer quality, my man!
Marco.
Aha, yup, I know who you are talking about having suffered the blandness of the £125 (£800) cables! :mental:
But to be fair I have bought a pair of used Audiostatic full range stats from these guys and the speakers were precisely as described and rapidly delivered. So a thumbs up for that major (£2k) purchase from Way Oop North. :)
Lacking in resolution. Other valve amps I have had (and still own) do a better job in detail retrieval making the 509/II sound a bit vague and amorphous. It isn't the ultimate detail machine which means that the soundstage too is vague and ill-defined (relatively speaking). The overall presentation significantly fails to let through some of the excitement and pizzazz that is in the music.
Oh dear. I seem to have trodden on someone's toes here and insulted a near relative who they love dearly! :)
No kit is perfect, and imho where the EAR 509/II falls down is in some of the very areas that you mention as being its strong points!
Yes, 'impact' is pretty good and the bass is strong and fairly well defined.
I don't think the 509/II has a unique sound at all - ime it's a rather old fashioned valve amp sound. Perhaps I would call it the 'missing link' between the old fashioned soggy-bass, moderate rez mids and smoothed off treble of all too many early valve jobbies and the new generation of higher rez valve amps that can go face to face with the best solid state and beat them on 'musicality'. "A bit on the slow side, but sturdy" might be a decent summary of my view on the 509/II.
I have no idea where I would place your EAR V20 within the valve sound pantheon as I have no experience of it. It would certainly seem to be a totally different animal to the 509/II.
All the above are just my personal opinions based on fairly extensive experience of quite a few bits of kit. :)
Typical comments ive seen on the 509 are
(They are) quite reliable (only one failure for each amp in 20 years), and cheap to retube. You gave evidence of their exceptional qualities in dynamics. I agree with you; the same when you describe their excellent bass (less extended in the very low region and less punch in respect of best transistor design, but still better than a large majority of tube amps). They also have great detail and a bright balance. I'm not so persuaded of that unnatural quality you mention, but maybe it's a main character of the unusual pentode power tubes employed (PL509/519).
The 509 had two big pluses (and maybe more); an amazing dynamic impact/intensity and their outstanding bass reproduction (especially for tubes). They made most other amplifiers of that time sound like anemic wimps. However, I also felt they were “dirty” sounding and somewhat unnaturally bright. I preferred the earlier Michaelson and Austin TVA-1, which had the same sonic advantages, but was more natural and cleaner sounding. In conclusion, I would seriously consider these only for the bass when bi-amping. I've never done this myself, but based on what I've heard in the past, the results could be well worth the investment.
Stereophile The ten greatest amplifiers ever made
1) Naim NAP250
2) Fi 2A3
3) Conrad-Johnson Premier One
4) EAR 509
5) Audio Note Ongaku
6) Rankin Baby Ongaku
7) Quad II
8) Krell KSA-50
9) DNM PA3ΔS
10) Lamm ML2.1
On the contratry you have not trodden on anyones toes, everyone is entitled to your opinions. I'm very interested therefore in what you might consider to be a modern hi resolution valve amplifier?
Also should these be used with a valve or SS preamp or no preamp at all?
Neil McCauley
17-07-2008, 16:48
.......... should these be used with a valve or SS preamp or no preamp at all?
Manley Stingray. So good that I've just invested in the 'Neo Classic' 300B preamp and The Steelhead phono stage.
My preference is not for valve power amps though. I'll be partnering with the 2 x LFD PA3 mono amps. Very doubtful at my age that I'll go beyond that.
---//---
jandl100
17-07-2008, 19:20
On the contrary you have not trodden on anyones toes
Well, that's good. I've yet to come across a perfect component - if you know of one, please do let me know! :)
To be honest, I'm not sure that the quotes you give are that far away from my own feelings. I was quite complimentary to the 509/II bass saying " 'impact' is pretty good and the bass is strong and fairly well defined.". One of your quotes said that the 509 wouldn't be his choice for anything bit the bass end - kind of similar to me, but I'd not say the mids and treble were bad, just that you can get valve amps that do better these days.
As for the list of Top 10 Amps of all time from Stereophile. That list was never intended as the Top 10 best sounding amps - but those that had most influence on the evolution of hifi. Sure some of them sounded good, too - I currently own a Krell KSA50 - very nice indeed!
I never said the EAR 509/II was a bad sounding amp - just that it is a bit 'old fashioned' in its sound. You really can get higher rez valve amps these days. Some folks would still prefer the EAR 509, and that is fair enough as far as I am concerned.
___
As for pre-amps - I currently have an EAR 802 valve pre and an Audio Synthesis DAX Decade (which is a DAC with a pre-amp section). I prefer my Quad 57 stats using the EAR 802 driving the Krell, but my Bowers Active speakers with the DAX Decade on its own. For me, which to use just depends on system synergy.
jandl100
17-07-2008, 19:29
Hi again, complin.
I see that I failed to answer your question about what would be a better valve amp than the 509/II. Well. I'm happy to take Marco's word about his Yaqin amp.
For myself, I own a pair of Chinese OTL monoblock valve amps that unambiguously and in no uncertain manner blow my excellent Krell KSA50 out of the water in terms of sound quality (presence, palpability, focus, 3D imaging, detail, resolution etc) when driving an easy speaker load. I am totally confident that they would wreak havoc in comparison to the 509/II.
Here they are ... pretty, huh?
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/OTLvalveamp.jpg
Jerry,
what models are they ?
StanleyB
17-07-2008, 19:40
Jeez Jerry, do the lights dim when you switch those things on? Nice winter warmers.
jandl100
17-07-2008, 19:44
Jeez Jerry, do the lights dim when you switch those things on? Nice winter warmers.
Err, yes, actually. ;)
I'm careful to leave a few seconds before switching on the second one!
& yup, they put out a lot of heat - mind you so does my class A Krell KSA50!
... I'm hoping for a cool summer. :)
jandl100
17-07-2008, 19:50
Jerry,
what models are they ?
They are made by a small specialist form in Hong Kong called "Musician". The amp is simply called "Tube Amplifier" !!
They are very nicely made - I bought them on eBay and and once the seller had the power supply rebuilt to banish hum problems, they have sounded simply fabulous - superb with my Quad 57s and my old ProAc Future Point 5s. But being OTLs they don't like low impedance loads, though - with my old Thiel CS2.3 (a notoriously difficult 4 ohm load) they topped out at anything above moderate sound levels.
They are made by a small specialist form in Hong Kong called "Musician". The amp is simply called "Tube Amplifier" !!
They are very nicely made - I bought them on eBay and and once the seller had the power supply rebuilt to banish hum problems, they have sounded simply fabulous - superb with my Quad 57s and my old ProAc Future Point 5s. But being OTLs they don't like low impedance loads, though - with my old Thiel CS2.3 (a notoriously difficult 4 ohm load) they topped out at anything above moderate sound levels.
Thanks I have tried several Chinese amps and to frank found then to be absolute c**p. Prone to hum, poor build quality and components and in one case electrically unsafe!! Given the topology of the one you like have you ever tried atama sphere? http://www.atma-sphere.com/ they have always specialised in OTLs?
http://www.atma-sphere.com/products/s30.html
jandl100
17-07-2008, 21:10
I must admit that I have only had positive experiences with Chinese valve amps .... a Ming Da MC34-A integrated and a Consonance M100 Plus - a 300B integrated. The latter being one of the very few components I regret selling on - a wonderful amp. And now my OTLs. Yup, 3 out of 3 positive Chinese amp experiences!
No, I've not tried Atma Sphere - I've read about them in Stereophile and TAS, though .... long rows of power tubes! Weigh a ton and cost a lot of ££££. I'm happy enough with my Chinese OTLs at a small fraction of the cost. :)
Thanks I have tried several Chinese amps and to frank found then to be absolute c**p. Prone to hum, poor build quality and components and in one case electrically unsafe!!
I'm not disputing your experiences, especially the last bit, but in the interests of balance can I ask what Chinese valve amps you've tried?
I've heard and used quite a few, including the one I'm currently using, and sonically they've all been superb - far better than examples from so called 'hi-end' manufacturers.
Marco.
I'm not disputing your experiences, especially the last bit, but in the interests of balance can I ask what Chinese valve amps you've tried?
I've heard and used quite a few, including the one I'm currently using, and sonically they've all been superb - far better than examples from so called 'hi-end' manufacturers.
Marco.
Yes examples i've tried are Music Angel, Cayin and Audioromy to name but three.
The only one I found quite good was the Antique Sound Lab
I've never tried any of those so can't comment, but I'm sure you're right.
However, I wouldn't make sweeping statements about Chinese valve amps being "crap", as if they all were, as just as many examples (or more) can be given of very good ones other people and I have used :)
I could go on about, for example, the crap valve amps from Unison Research, Graaf, Audio Research, McIntosh, Conrad Johnson, amongst others, I've heard over the years from these so called respected 'hi-end' manufacturers and some of the rip off prices being charged for no more than mediocre sound quality! ;)
It's just like anything else in hi-fi, there are good and bad examples of everything. However, in my experience the Chinese get right far more than they do wrong - and they learn quickly from their mistakes.
Marco.
I've never tried any of those so can't comment, but I'm sure you're right.
However, I wouldn't make sweeping statements about Chinese valve amps being "crap", as if they all were, as just as many examples (or more) can be given of very good ones other people and I have used :)
I could go on about, for example, the crap valve amps from Unison Research, Graaf, Audio Research, McIntosh, Conrad Johnson, amongst others, I've heard over the years from these so called respected 'hi-end' manufacturers and some of the rip off prices being charged for no more than mediocre sound quality! ;)
It's just like anything else in hi-fi, there are good and bad examples of everything. However, in my experience the Chinese get right far more than they do wrong - and they learn quickly from their mistakes.
Marco.
I'm not saying that all Chinese equipment is C**P i'm sure there must be one or two out there that are good. Shanling and Opera Cons come to mind, I believe they have a reasonable reputation. However I think if you were to take a straw poll on many of the forums you would find lots of people who have bad experiences with Chinese equipment. Most likey this would outweigh those who have extoled the virtues of their Chinese amps.
I for one am prerared to forgo some of the performace and pay more in favour of something that
**can be easily reparied
**is spported by the manufacturer
**uses quality components
**is reliable and dependable
**dose not have to be modified to cure inherent problems such as hum
**or be made safe to use
If members have really good experiences with their Chinese equipment spread over a reasonable period, not just a few months then it would be good to know. There are however manufacturers out there who have a 30 years plus of manufacturing and supporting valve amps who might be a better bet in the long run?
I.E.
ARC
Manley Labs
Atama Sphere
EAR Yoshino
Audio Valve
Croft
To name but a few.
At least these Guys dont pass off Chinese made equipment as their own which seems to be a growing trend in the market.
Those are all valid points, but the reality is there are far more than just "one or two" Chinese valve amps that are good. Amongst the commercial designs you could also add Primaluna and Puresound to your list, and there are plenty more. If you decide to buy direct from China you just need to do your research properly and adopt some common sense.
Or you could simply have a reputable and experienced valve engineer (such as our own Nick or Anthony) design something bespoke for you which would fulfil all your above criteria and likely outperform most commercial designs at a fraction of the price, and would also be supported by them, too :)
In my opinion Croft are different because Glenn is basically like Nick or Anthony but just happens to be somewhat more well-known. The prices he charges are also 'real world'. World Designs equipment (ready assembled or in kit form) also offers superb sound-per-pound value combined with a professional and reliable back-up service.
These days, as far as valve amps go, there is simply no need to pay for a desirable audiophile 'badge', providing sound quality is your primary concern.
Marco.
Ali Tait
18-07-2008, 19:59
I would put a vote in for Mr Liang. I've an 845 SE which while was very good indeed out of the box,has become superb with some very simple tweaks. I run it straight off UK mains and it's given totally trouble-free service for I think around 18 months now.
They are made by a small specialist form in Hong Kong called "Musician". The amp is simply called "Tube Amplifier" !!
They are very nicely made - I bought them on eBay and and once the seller had the power supply rebuilt to banish hum problems, they have sounded simply fabulous - superb with my Quad 57s and my old ProAc Future Point 5s. But being OTLs they don't like low impedance loads, though - with my old Thiel CS2.3 (a notoriously difficult 4 ohm load) they topped out at anything above moderate sound levels.
Had a look on the web to see if i can find some more details but drawn a blank. Do you have a URL or any contact details?
I see you use active speakers now so are they now unused?
jandl100
19-07-2008, 10:09
Had a look on the web to see if i can find some more details but drawn a blank. Do you have a URL or any contact details?
Nope, they are a complete mystery to me, too!
Here's a photo of the front fascia which presents all the info I know about them! ...
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/OTLampfascia.jpg
I see you use active speakers now so are they now unused?
Yep, they are sitting alone, forlorn and unused at the moment. :( Most sad.
I must admit that I am reluctant to part with them as they are, imho, the best power amps I have ever heard (and I've heard quite a few in my time ;)). I'm bound to get some more passive speakers that are a fairly easy load sometime and I bet I would regret selling the OTLs when that happens! :doh: (In fact, I've got my eye on an eBay auction at the moment!)
But, of course, for the right offer .... ;)
It is sometimes said that with OTL amps there's a danger that a failing valve will damage the speakers - do you know if that's true ?
It is sometimes said that with OTL amps there's a danger that a failing valve will damage the speakers - do you know if that's true ?
This is what Wikipedia says about this
Output transformerless amplifiers (OTL)
The output transformer (OPT) is a major component in all mainstream valve power amplifiers, and in addition to having a high cost (at least for a good one) they remain engineering compromises that deviate significantly from the idealized form.
One approach to avoid the problems of OPTs is to avoid the OPT entirely, and direct couple the gain device to the output (as is done with most transistor amplifiers for example). Some designs without output transformers (OTLs) were produced by Julius Futterman in the 1960s and '70s, and more recently in different embodiments by others, in an attempt to overcome the problems of transformers.
To do this one must deal with the characteristics of the valve, low current capability for a given anode voltage; consequently very particular valves must be employed. If done with care and the correct configuration, reasonable efficiency and moderate Zout (damping factor) can be achieved.
These effects mean that OTLs have selective speaker load requirements, just like any other amplifier. Generally a speaker of at least 8 ohms is required, although larger OTLs are often quite comfortable with 4 ohm loads. Electrostatic speakers (often considered difficult to drive) often work especially well with OTLs.
The more recent and more successful OTL circuits employ an output circuit generally known as a Circlotron. The Circlotron has about one-half the output impedance of the Futterman-style (totem-pole) circuits; far more important is the fact that the Circlotron is fully symmetrical and does not require large amounts of feedback to reduce output impedance and distortion. The result overcomes the biggest hurdle suffered by the prior art: stability. Thus modern OTLs can be as stable as any amplifier made. Successful embodiments use the 6AS7G and the Russian 6C33-CB power triodes.
A common myth is that a failure (short) in one of the output valves may result in the loudspeaker being connected directly across the power supply, and thus being destroyed (possibly quite spectacularly). In practice, the older Futterman-style amplifiers have been known to damage speakers, not out of shorts but out of oscillation. The Circlotron amplifiers often feature direct-coupled outputs, but proper engineering (with a few well-placed fuses) ensures that damage to a speaker is entirely within the same realm as conventional amplifiers. Certainly it is nearly impossible for the speaker to wind up being across the power supply!
OTLs have been a growing niche, as the Circlotron is so successful that modern OTLs are often more reliable, better performing, better sounding and less expensive than many transformer-coupled approaches. In recent years, the popularity of single-ended triode amplifiers has dramatically increased the range of loudspeakers suitable for OTLs.
Nope, they are a complete mystery to me, too!
Here's a photo of the front fascia which presents all the info I know about them! ...
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/OTLampfascia.jpg
Yep, they are sitting alone, forlorn and unused at the moment. :( Most sad.
I must admit that I am reluctant to part with them as they are, imho, the best power amps I have ever heard (and I've heard quite a few in my time ;)). I'm bound to get some more passive speakers that are a fairly easy load sometime and I bet I would regret selling the OTLs when that happens! :doh: (In fact, I've got my eye on an eBay auction at the moment!)
But, of course, for the right offer .... ;)
Thanks i'll have to keep an eye out on flea bay
Hope the pair of speakers you have your eye on are not the same one's i'm bidding on!
Have you ever tried one of the Radfords STA 15 or 25, they are supposed to have a particular synergy withe Quad ESL's? The Bewitch amps also seem to have some good press and I think are sold under a couple of names in the UK.
There are a few weasle words there:
"A common myth"
And then
"Certainly it is nearly impossible for the speaker to wind up being across the power supply"
Last time I looked nearly impossible wasnt the same as never possible, and if something is occasionaly possible, then it can happen, so is hardly a myth.
It does make a valid point though, many DC coupled SS amps are just as capable of connecting the loudspeaker to the power rails. The unmentioned problem though, is a OTL pushes valves where they are not intended to be, even freak valves like the 6c33c are pushed to the edge, and in that case failure modes can tend to be not of the "gently fade away" form.
They can sound very good though, very speaker dependent, but in the right conditions rather good.
BR makes some nice kits:
http://www.transcendentsound.com/T16OTL.htm
There are a few weasle words there:
"A common myth"
And then
"Certainly it is nearly impossible for the speaker to wind up being across the power supply"
Last time I looked nearly impossible wasnt the same as never possible, and if something is occasionaly possible, then it can happen, so is hardly a myth.
It does make a valid point though, many DC coupled SS amps are just as capable of connecting the loudspeaker to the power rails. The unmentioned problem though, is a OTL pushes valves where they are not intended to be, even freak valves like the 6c33c are pushed to the edge, and in that case failure modes can tend to be not of the "gently fade away" form.
They can sound very good though, very speaker dependent, but in the right conditions rather good.
BR makes some nice kits:
http://www.transcendentsound.com/T16OTL.htm
Perhaps this is why you never see designers like Tim De Paravacini use OTL in their designs. Only Enhaced Triode or conventional push pull.
Perhaps this is why you never see designers like Tim De Paravacini use OTL in their designs. Only Enhaced Triode or conventional push pull.
I stand corrected. I had forgotten about the OTL direct coupled amp he makes for the QUAD ESL 57.......
Esoteric Audio Research: direct-coupled valve amp
Valve (DC coupled OTL)
Huntingdon, England
This is an extraordinary piece of equipment. The EAR output transformerless valve amp is quite different to the Futterman OTL, as it drives the electrodes of an ESL direct. Consequently it is not a stand-alone unit but it is mounted inside the Quad speaker. The main draw back of conventional OTL is that they still need the voltage step-up via the input transformer of the ESL. Beveridge and Acoustat (USA) also had similar amplifiers in their electrostatic loudspeakers (model Beveridge II, Acoustat X). According to Mr. Tim de Paravicini the EAR direct-drive amp is available again, albeit at a price (6.800 GBP).
combwork
19-07-2008, 15:31
This really is an excellent thread, but realistically I'll not be hearing most of the amplifiers talked about. Keeping to vintage equipment (which for my own reasons I prefer) and electrostatic speakers, it sounds as if the Radford power amp, (possibly driven by a Radford pre amp) would sound first class connected to a pair of Quad ESL 57s. I remember having a single Radford amp back in the late 70s and being told that originally you could buy them both new built from the manufacturer, and as a circuit diagram plus chassis. You could source the components from wherever you liked, but the output transformer was to their own design and could only be bought from them. I think it was made by Partridge but I'm not sure. Does that sound right?
I have a pair of Quad ESL57s in very good original condition (dry stored for many years) and a pair of B & W DM70s that once I get the parts from Australia, will (I hope) have rebuilt balanced electrostatic units.
Would a pair of vintage Radfords plus suitable pre amps be happy driving the B & Ws? Of equal importance, would I raise enough selling a pair of Pioneer CS-99As, a pair of Pioneer CS06s, a single Pioneer CS-06A, and a NAD 3020B to be in with a shot of buying them? Or am I whistling in the dark..............:lol:
Ali Tait
19-07-2008, 17:02
Others may know better,but I rarely see Radfords up for sale,and when I have they are not cheap.I can say that the Mr Liang at around 20 w/ch drives my ESL III's very well indeed,so should have no trouble with the Quads.The old wooden-sleeve Sugden (which I still have) is certainly a good match to the Quads (which I used to have) to my ears,and drove them with no problem at 7 w/ch with a tail-wind.I don't know the characteristics of the B&W's so can't comment on ease of drive.I've not heard Radfords but from what I've read,vintage pre amps are generally not as good as modern types,though the Radford may be different.Perhaps Radford owners could comment.
jandl100
20-07-2008, 07:43
This is what Wikipedia says about this
Output transformerless amplifiers (OTL)
.... Successful embodiments use the 6AS7G and the Russian 6C33-CB power triodes.
Yup, my leetle babies use those. :)
jandl100
20-07-2008, 07:48
Have you ever tried one of the Radfords STA 15 or 25, they are supposed to have a particular synergy withe Quad ESL's?
No, not at home.
I heard a (perhaps highly tweaked) STA25 at Len Gregory's place ("The Cartridge Man") and the whole system sounded fantastic.
I'm moving the Quad 57s on, now, though. I'll be bidding against you, Complin, perhaps, for my next pair of speakers! ;)
No, not at home.
I heard a (perhaps highly tweaked) STA25 at Len Gregory's place ("The Cartridge Man") and the whole system sounded fantastic.
Was that through his Quad 63s ?
BR makes some nice kits:
http://www.transcendentsound.com/T16OTL.htm
What's that 'Grounded Grid Pre-Amp' that's on there. It seems very cheap! :scratch:
What's that 'Grounded Grid Pre-Amp' that's on there. It seems very cheap! :scratch:
I haven't heard one for some year but they were highly regarded.
Ali Tait
23-07-2008, 18:47
I've heard one in my system as was a few years ago and yes it was very good indeed from memory.His amps are very good too.I still remember the amazing width of soundstage from I think it was the T8 I heard whan I had a get-together at my place many moons ago.Nick was there,he may remember.
Hmmm..... with the current exchange rate I'm finding it hard to resist tbh! :eyebrows:
Yes, the OTL kit is a very good introduction to the breed as well.
Well... It seems like the ol' grounded grid topic has raised its head again recently, with Anthony's AoS design, and Hamish's valve amp 'epiphany', since this topic was last contributed to ;)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
16-11-2009, 09:28
OK, could I ask a question or two inspired from personal interest and not to interrogate anyone, or to upset anyone please??
Firstly, whatever happened to the Bill Beard designs, or even the man himself?
And lastly, does anyone with technical knowledge know the audio configuration of a "grounded grid" amplifier please, and what are it's virtues and characteristics please??
Regards
Dave
I thought you knew about GG from a previous post elsewhere Dave? Off the top of my head GG where used in audio Freq applications and have high bandwidth, a very low noise floor and are very linear in operation.
They also have low o/p impedance but because the signal is modulating the cathode and not the grid the i/p impedance is also very low so a wide bandwidth buffer stage (like a cathode follower) is needed before the GG stage. Input overload margins are also very good.
As to sound I found they are very neutral, detailed and fast - nothing warm and cuddly about the presentation, in fact a good design like the BR one has little or no 'character' IMHO. The respond well to component tweaks IME.
Dave Cawley
16-11-2009, 17:18
Hi Neal
Sorry no, and still no reply to my question "And lastly, does anyone with technical knowledge know the audio configuration of a "grounded grid" amplifier please, and what are it's virtues and characteristics please??"
So do you use a cathode follower into a grounded grid stage? Can't see why they would have a low output impedance though? Or electrically why it would be better than an ordinary grounded cathode stage? (thus saving one valve)
Nearly there I think?
Regards
Dave
Baffles me too I thought a grounded grid input stage was input to cathode and grid grounded
but it seems you can call a cathode coupled stage anything you like.
See http://www.tubecad.com/2007/05/blog0106.htm
Hi Dave,
Why the sudden obsession with grounded grid - are you planning on building something? :)
Marco.
Glenn's doing something along those lines already *I think.* I'll have to dig his emails out, as he told me how differently he treats the line stage these days and Cathode something-or-other was mentioned.
Forgive my amateurishness here..
OK I've dug out Audio Reality by BR.
He uses a 2 stage 12AU7A configuration. First stage is simple cathode follower, signal fed to grid, 75v plate voltage and cathode tied to negative 200v supply via 51K resistor. (Used for the reasons I stated above)
The signal is derived accross the 51K res and the CF o/p is direct coupled to the cathode of the next stage, the GG. The GG Grid(!) is tied to ground via a resistor and it uses an active plate load in the shape of another 12AU7A. The active load is coupled to the plate of the GG via a resistor and the output is taken from the cathode of the active load....so low o/p impedance.
If you have a look on the BR web site you can download Audio Reality as a PDF for $18, the cct is in the back with full description.
steveinspain
05-08-2020, 12:18
A bit of a thread Resurrection from someone who has not posted on here for 12 years.....
I was chatting with a friend last night about old hifi shops I used to frequent, stuff I'd bought and how things used to be back then, and Subjective Audio came up.
A quick search reminded me about this place, and then I saw mention of Beard gear. I've just searched my old posts and this is from a reply I posted in 2009, about one of my experiences with Howard, must have been back in 1985..
I was a builder, driving a mini van (street cred - I had it in bucket-loads) and a scraggy scruffy mess too (me, and the van)
I went to Howard first to buy a cassette machine,and he opened the shop especially for me on a sunday, which really impressed. It was my first ever hifi shop experience.
A few weeks later, he called me to say he had something that I might be interested in.
So, off I trotted in my van late Saturday afternoon.
I was shown the beard amps and maggies, and told I could take them home for the weekend - now remember that this guy had no address for me, just my Mums address, as I was renting. I went to get my van from where I had parked it, and he got the gear outside the back of the shop. I pulled up, and once he knew I was there, he shot off, as he had a date of some sort. So, I was packing this gear into the back of the van when a copper came round the corner to see a scruffy geezer cramming big expensive boxes into a tatty van. 'Ello' ello' ello, he said, whats all this then. I explained that I had been lent the gear for the weekend, so had no paperwork to prove I hadn't nicked it, and Howard was out of reach (no mobiles back then).
I spent the next few hours at the station until my Mother was contacted and could vouch for me etc, then I was allowed to go.
Now, the maggies came ina big box - it was too long for me to close the doors, so I drove across London with the back doors open, a piece of string holding the gear that was worth 6 months income. Guess what - I got stopped by the police again, and it was only after my tale was verified that I was allowed to go home, finally.
Needless to say, I wasn't about to take the stuff back after all that, so kept it all, and thus began my life with a hifi. Still got the beard, though lent it to a friend many years back, so doubt I'll ever see it again, and the maggies are waiting in Mums attic for when I can bring them down here.
Back to today - The amp is still in use - I gave it to a friend to look after when I was in hospital for a prolonged time following a motorbike smash. My Linn LP12 (which didn't come from Howard) I left with my mum who threw it out as it was not playing at the right speed. The Maggies I gave to someone else a year or so ago as they had lived in my mums attic (if only the LP12 had been put up there) and anyway, I don't have the space for them.
Does anyone know what happened to Mark who worked at Subjective Audio ?
The friend who now has the Beard also knows Howard, but we didn't get round to discussing how.
Sorry for repeating my tale on an already old thread, but hopefully some might find it of some interest..
No need to apologise Steve - it's a good read and a reminder of the time when there was more trust in place.
It reminds me of the time I bought a rug from a carpet dealer in Iran. He couldn't take a card payment, so suggested I leave my home address with him, take the rug and pay him by bank transfer when I returned to the UK. This I did, but it did mean lugging around the rug in a carpet bag which was a bit of an inconvenience as I was touring around Iran at the time. My friend could not believe the trust the seller had placed in me to pay up, but as I said I had left my address and I'm sure if I hadn't paid, he had friends in the UK who would pay me a 'visit'.
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