Expensive CD players - worth it?

[Pigmy Pony]

My Marantz CD6006 (UK edition) has been a bit of a dick lately, drawer refusing to open, opening and immediately closing, closing and immediately opening again, and now skipping like mad towards the end of discs.

So I'm going to take it to be repaired (probably Mike Powell at Bolton). I took it off the shelf, and just for the hell of it decided to put in my temperamental Densen Beat B-400 Plus. Which, for the moment, is surprising me by actually working :)

But what also surprised me was that I could hear no difference in sound between this and the Marantz player. The Densen retailed for £1400 in 2003 (about £2800 in today's money), compared to £350 for the Marantz. Don't get me wrong, I'm just glad the bloody thing is working, but surely that 8x the cost should bring some kind of improvement...

So when it comes to CD players, what does your extra outlay really get you?

[walpurgis]

So when it comes to CD players, what does your extra outlay really get you?

Probably less and less. I'm sure the law of diminishing returns applies massively.

[Pigmy Pony]

Probably less and less. I'm sure the law of diminishing returns applies massively.

Certainly looks that way with CD players. £200 amp vs. £2k amp, big difference. £200 CDP vs. £2k, not so much. Maybe a quicker opening/closing drawer? My Densen certainly does that. And it does have a visual symmetry, which appeals to me.

[Lawrence001]

If you're plugging them in to your Matsui mini system maybe it's just not resolving enough to hear the difference?

[Pigmy Pony]

Matsui broken. It blew off the shelf in a strong draught :( But I've since upgraded to Alba. Onwards and upwards :)

[Lawrence001]

Is it one of these? You could sell it to a hipster for a few ponies.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20261014/7c017392e52fb8662ba92613fc463d8e.jpg

[Pigmy Pony]

Is it one of these? You could sell it to a hipster for a few ponies.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20261014/7c017392e52fb8662ba92613fc463d8e.jpg

Hard to tell from that pic - Ours has genuine wood-look formica top plate, not the cheap crap iron-on stuff.

[Macca]

My Marantz CD6006 (UK edition) has been a bit of a dick lately, drawer refusing to open, opening and immediately closing, closing and immediately opening again, and now skipping like mad towards the end of discs.

So I'm going to take it to be repaired (probably Mike Powell at Bolton). I took it off the shelf, and just for the hell of it decided to put in my temperamental Densen Beat B-400 Plus. Which, for the moment, is surprising me by actually working :)

But what also surprised me was that I could hear no difference in sound between this and the Marantz player. The Densen retailed for £1400 in 2003 (about £2800 in today's money), compared to £350 for the Marantz. Don't get me wrong, I'm just glad the bloody thing is working, but surely that 8x the cost should bring some kind of improvement...

So when it comes to CD players, what does your extra outlay really get you?

Since it looks like you've not had a proper answer to this question I'll have a go.

Differences in CD Players:

Frequency response - not all players have a flat frequency response. Mostly the difference is very small, maybe 0.1 to 0.5dB, but across a wide bandwidth this can be audible.

Output voltage - CD Redbook states 2.0 Volts as the standard for single ended output but many players have lower, or higher output voltage. For the same position on the volume dial one player can sound louder (and therefore 'better') than another. Even a very small difference in output level can do that, even though our impression is that the volume level seems to be the same.

What do expensive players offer? Well, what should they offer?

Better build quality, longer lifespan, better ergonomics, better ability to read damaged discs without skipping or drop outs.

Is this always the case? No. Some expensive players use cheap slot loading drives. Sound quality will be fine but other parameters may not be.

Will a cheap player offer the same sound quality as a really expensive one? Bearing in mind the exceptions and variables mentioned above, and generally speaking, yes it will.

[Marco]

Some valid points, but I disagree with your conclusion, based on experience. It doesn't take into consideration the effect of transport mechs, engineering and PSU arrangements, all of which cost money and the best examples of that are generally found on more expensive players.

It's not a given though, especially among the 'badge-fi', posing as hi-end CDPs, which often feature a cheap plastic DVD-ROM, as opposed to a die-cast metal dedicated CD transport, and again experience there tells me there's an audible difference. Also, it depends on what you mean by "really expensive".

There's a reason (indeed there are several) why I use a vintage Sony CDP, as a transport - and it's not just because I like the look of it!;)

Marco.

[Macca]

Some valid points, but I disagree with your conclusion, based on experience. It doesn't take into consideration the effect of transport mechs, engineering and PSU arrangements, all of which cost money and the best examples of that are generally found on more expensive players.

It's not a given though, especially among the 'badge-fi', posing as hi-end CDPs, which often feature a cheap plastic DVD-ROM, as opposed to a die-cast metal dedicated CD transport, and again experience there tells me there's an audible difference. Also, it depends on what you mean by "really expensive".

There's a reason (indeed there are several) why I use a vintage Sony CDP, as a transport - and it's not just because I like the look of it!;)

Marco.

I didn't want to write a long essay no-one would read hence why I said 'generally speaking.' There's always exceptions if you look hard enough.

There is quite a few expensive (costing thousands) CD players out there that are just a cheap mech in an adequate case, made in China for ten bob. They'll sound fine but you're not getting anything for that money over an Onkyo or similar that you could get in Richer Sounds for a few hundred.

High end Sony is a whole different ballgame but there is no more high end Sony and I wouldn't recommend getting a vintage one unless you can fix them or know someone who will.

[Marco]

A good EE can fix most stuff, and I know a few; not that I need one, as the Sony has performed faultlessly for the 20 years I've had it, and it was second-hand when I bought it! You can't beat bombproof engineering:)

However, I agree with your basic point. The days of great CDPs (new) are over, and have been for some time.

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

Hmm, a lot more to CD players than I thought... Marco, I take your point about many of the more expensive players having better build quality. Just how much effect that will have on sound quality will no doubt be measurable, but whether that difference is audible will be up to the user. You can tell with your bat's ears, but probably not me.

Of course nothing lasts for ever, so it would be up to the individual user to decide whether the nth degree of sound improvement is worth the potential future pain of expensive parts being scarce or even impossible to find.

I suppose my question should have been: should I get the competent and relatively low cost Marantz player fixed, or get the Densen (which to be fair uses a readily available and inexpensive Sony laser mechanism) repaired.

Sod it, I'll get them both fixed, so I then have a spare player. And maybe with further plays the Densen will reveal why it should cost six times that of the Marantz.

[Marco]

I don't think the Densen, although a good player, is sufficiently special to show up the difference of what's possible. Therefore, I'd choose the player you like the look of the most and use that:)

Marco.

[Barry]

Most CD players, even some of the most expensive will use a fairly basic Philips laser mechanism. If you want the best find a player that uses a laser disc reader designed for CD juke boxes. They were designed to be in use for hours at a time, and hence are robust enough to have long-term reliability.

I forget the type number of the reader, save to say my Levinson ML 390 player uses the same.

After that it is all down to the electronics: how much oversampling is done; the size of the buffer and speed of input/output. That is what makes the biggest difference to the sound quality; and as others have said, the technology has probably already reached optimum quality.


I've just checked - the Levinson ML 390 uses a Philips CD12 IND disc reader, having a substantial die-cast chassis, metal swing arm guide rails and glass (not plastic) lenses. It was designed to be used in CD juke boxes amongst others.

[Idlewithnodrive]

Hmm, a lot more to CD players than I thought... Marco, I take your point about many of the more expensive players having better build quality. Just how much effect that will have on sound quality will no doubt be measurable, but whether that difference is audible will be up to the user. You can tell with your bat's ears, but probably not me.

Of course nothing lasts for ever, so it would be up to the individual user to decide whether the nth degree of sound improvement is worth the potential future pain of expensive parts being scarce or even impossible to find.

I suppose my question should have been: should I get the competent and relatively low cost Marantz player fixed, or get the Densen (which to be fair uses a readily available and inexpensive Sony laser mechanism) repaired.

Sod it, I'll get them both fixed, so I then have a spare player. And maybe with further plays the Densen will reveal why it should cost six times that of the Marantz.

I inhabit very much the mid-fi habitat and find that the few hundred quid I pay for anything can bring large differences in SQ. My CDP of choice at the moment is a mid range, mid 90's Sony ES. It is built like a tank, is a joy to use and, to my ageing ears, sounds lovely.

The very large upside to mid range ES kit of this era is that it uses the cheap, ubiquitous KSS-213B Mech, so is easy to repair should it ever go wrong, and I don't imagine it will. If I were looking for a new CDP now, that is where I would be putting my money.

[Marco]

Most CD players, even some of the most expensive will use a fairly basic Philips laser mechanism. If you want the best find a player that uses a laser disc reader designed for CD juke boxes. They were designed to be in use for hours at a time, and hence are robust enough to have long-term reliability.

I forget the type number of the reader, save to say my Levinson ML 390 player uses the same.

After that it is all down to the electronics: how much oversampling is done; the size of the buffer and speed of input/output. That is what makes the biggest difference to the sound quality; and as others have said, the technology has probably already reached optimum quality.

PSU arrangements also make a big difference, Barry, with the very best CDPs having dedicated (over-specced) linear ones for different parts of the circuit, reducing noise, and also where the detrimental effects of vibration (a big issue with CDPs) has been addressed.

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

A good EE can fix most stuff, and I know a few; not that I need one, as the Sony has performed faultlessly for the 20 years I've had it, and it was second-hand when I bought it! You can't beat bombproof engineering:)

However, I agree with your basic point. The days of great CDPs (new) are over, and have been for some time.

Marco.

Is that Martin's basic point? Have you seen or heard his CDT? It's all you could ever need imo, complete with the peace of mind that brand new (hopefully) brings. I have no plans to spend big on a player, but if I was, that's where my money would be going. Because regardless of how good your EE is, he can't fabricate a replacement for an obsolete mechanism from nothing.

[Marco]

No, that's true, but he (or she) can replace like for like components, such as caps and resistors of the same value, which is often what needs replacing. As I said, I've had my Sony now for 20 years, and it continues to perform faultlessly to this day. The 'battleship' CDPs of old tend to last, IME.

No, I haven't heard Martin's CDP, but have no reason to assume it's not excellent. The point I was making, and I think Martin was too, was that hi-end CDPs of today are mostly built from cheap parts, so there's no point in buying one, unless the badge attracts, whereas 20 years ago, you got what you were paying for; where it matters, under the hood!

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

Fair point. On a related note, I've just stuck a CD on, and the bloody Densen is skipping already! So it looks like I will be vinyl-only until I get off my arse and have these players seen to.

I had noticed though, that the familiar-to-me Cranberries CD sounds rather hot in the higher frequencies (and not in a good way), compared to how I remember the Marantz being last week...

[Macca]

I suppose my question should have been: should I get the competent and relatively low cost Marantz player fixed, or get the Densen (which to be fair uses a readily available and inexpensive Sony laser mechanism) repaired.

Sod it, I'll get them both fixed, so I then have a spare player. And maybe with further plays the Densen will reveal why it should cost six times that of the Marantz.

The problem with your Marantz is just the draw playing up? If so it's probably just needing a new belt. Sometimes the cogs fail but you can get replacements for those too now. So should be a cheap fix, just the cost of the belt (about a fiver) if you're up to doing it yourself.

Densen's always been one of those brands to me which charge a lot for something that's nothing special in a fancy case. That's true of pretty much any CD player from the boutique brands.

[Macca]

No, that's true, but he (or she) can replace like for like components, such as caps and resistors of the same value, which is often what needs replacing. As I said, I've had my Sony now for 20 years, and it continues to perform faultlessly to this day. The 'battleship' CDPs of old tend to last, IME.

No, I haven't heard Martin's CDP, but have no reason to assume it's not excellent. The point I was making, and I think Martin was too, was that hi-end CDPs of today are mostly built from cheap parts, so there's no point in buying one, unless the badge attracts, whereas 20 years ago, you got what you were paying for; where it matters, under the hood!

Marco.

I've got a faulty X505ES here so it can happen they go bad. Like anything they will eventually wear out with use, they just take a lot longer to do it, and the problem with getting one now is you don't know the mileage. And prices are still way too high despite that.

Sure you can find an EE who will work on one but some won't touch CD players. Also you'll have a wait and a substantial bill if it's not at mate's rates.

Plenty of new CD players that will give excellent sound quality, if you want high end looks and build the market for expensive CD transports seems to be expanding. They still don't have the build quality and attention to every detail of the top Sony kit but then nothing ever did. Okay, maybe high end Yamaha and JVC and Accuphase came close too.

[Pigmy Pony]

The problem with your Marantz is just the draw playing up? If so it's probably just needing a new belt. Sometimes the cogs fail but you can get replacements for those too now. So should be a cheap fix, just the cost of the belt (about a fiver) if you're up to doing it yourself.

Densen's always been one of those brands to me which charge a lot for something that's nothing special in a fancy case. That's true of pretty much any CD player from the boutique brands.

It's not just the drawer, discs have started skipping towards the end. So that's not a job for me. I expect the repair to cost a few bob, but it will still be cheaper than ditching it and buying a new one.

The Densen is back to behaving itself again, but for how long who knows. I've decided I don't like the sound (now my ears have latched onto it I can't ignore it). Maybe I'll get it fixed then sell it. Or even sell as-is. I saw a non-working one go on Ebay for a couple hundred.

[walpurgis]

Budget end CD players may benefit from having mainly been developed by big companies to sell in larger numbers than those of the more specialist makes and therefore the cheaper models will probably have had more development and bugs ironed out.

[Macca]

It's not just the drawer, discs have started skipping towards the end. So that's not a job for me. I expect the repair to cost a few bob, but it will still be cheaper than ditching it and buying a new one.

The Densen is back to behaving itself again, but for how long who knows. I've decided I don't like the sound (now my ears have latched onto it I can't ignore it). Maybe I'll get it fixed then sell it. Or even sell as-is. I saw a non-working one go on Ebay for a couple hundred.

Skipping can also be due to a failing belt. People automatically assume that skipping means it's the laser although that's rarely the case. But it could also be any number of other things too.

[Marco]

Sure you can find an EE who will work on one but some won't touch CD players. Also you'll have a wait and a substantial bill if it's not at mate's rates.


Lol, true, but I only ever do mates rates. If you've been in this game for 30-odd years and not befriended and EE in that time, then summat's wrong!;)


Plenty of new CD players that will give excellent sound quality...

Yes, you might think that until you hear a good oldie in comparison...

Marco.

[Marco]

Plenty of new CD players that will give excellent sound quality, if you want high end looks and build the market for expensive CD transports seems to be expanding. They still don't have the build quality and attention to every detail of the top Sony kit but then nothing ever did.

Here's a nice one for £5k: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/4444078141/sony-cdp-x777es-rarest-vintage-compact

Expensive, yes, but I'd put it up against almost any modern hi-end CDP you could mention, and expect it to more than hold its own.

Marco.

[Macca]

Here's a nice one for £5k: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/4444078141/sony-cdp-x777es-rarest-vintage-compact

Expensive, yes, but I'd put it up against almost any modern hi-end CDP you could mention, and expect it to more than hold its own.

Marco.

Yeah I did consider something like that when I was putting together my retirement system but I've owned enough vintage CDPs to be wary about longevity, so I went for brand new on the grounds it has the best chance of lasting for the longest time. It still goes through a 37 year old Sony DAC though!

[Pigmy Pony]

Here's a nice one for £5k: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/4444078141/sony-cdp-x777es-rarest-vintage-compact

Expensive, yes, but I'd put it up against almost any modern hi-end CDP you could mention, and expect it to more than hold its own.

Marco.

:eek: £5k? here's one:

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChsSEwjX6YL1nLyXAxWChlAGHVFnFAIYACICCAEQFBoCZG c&ae=2&aspm=1&co=1&ase=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw88HWBhA3EiwAo2Zd6MfAnIru6e9zdD3qi8sN lNsYkSyTTksobgSBAnCxS2czNzEHPp-EOBoCz4sQAvD_BwE&cid=CAAS0wHkaHHDenrKFMk7jk9e4vUX_2oBgO9xBsMJhvbYTG QiHDM0b8TOf44R_hcxRTpmCOpU_GOV-_NvjO-uL_KxWWkyzuv_EPOnQ5WIgJysEh4RV17km8BakdVapkwwFkYJ5 mdSrK_8Ag8O3BqqpYeJtB2TII4U3xxKlEoeZS9jizt55Lq_IZe RVINu7ng3maxi333fMFuZPvJadeGnb2n04VaXSUL-04BS84UkWSxBRsL4agCRATQXKACCVRhkS9I5vS7BepSrp1k9er Wjg--THzm3b3PC&cce=2&category=acrcp_v1_35&sig=AOD64_0vfRVEjHeT95ESpoAk6BFD4VPoEg&ctype=5&q=&nis=4&ved=2ahUKEwilvfv0nLyXAxVIQUEAHcWBA2cQ5bgDKAB6BAgME As&adurl=

And here's another one:

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChsSEwjX6YL1nLyXAxWChlAGHVFnFAIYACICCAEQJBoCZG c&co=1&ase=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw88HWBhA3EiwAo2Zd6AuQYtJEZVpsgsbAu8Eo hLk7nYVI6628ThH7c1DI1aanva0RYfsTYxoCqpgQAvD_BwE&cid=CAAS0wHkaHHDenrKFMk7jk9e4vUX_2oBgO9xBsMJhvbYTG QiHDM0b8TOf44R_hcxRTpmCOpU_GOV-_NvjO-uL_KxWWkyzuv_EPOnQ5WIgJysEh4RV17km8BakdVapkwwFkYJ5 mdSrK_8Ag8O3BqqpYeJtB2TII4U3xxKlEoeZS9jizt55Lq_IZe RVINu7ng3maxi333fMFuZPvJadeGnb2n04VaXSUL-04BS84UkWSxBRsL4agCRATQXKACCVRhkS9I5vS7BepSrp1k9er Wjg--THzm3b3PC&cce=2&category=acrcp_v1_32&sig=AOD64_22PbPtw5ZGKWriQWSMSuBbNQNOgg&ctype=5&q=&nis=4&ved=2ahUKEwilvfv0nLyXAxVIQUEAHcWBA2cQ5bgDKAB6BAgME BQ&adurl=

Still rather buy new. Peace of mind you see. Anyway, I would say when you're at this level, the room plays a bigger part than component changes.

[Marco]

Yeah I did consider something like that when I was putting together my retirement system but I've owned enough vintage CDPs to be wary about longevity, so I went for brand new on the grounds it has the best chance of lasting for the longest time. It still goes through a 37 year old Sony DAC though!

You gotta keep the side up, mate!:eyebrows:

Marco.

[Marco]

:eek: £5k? here's one:

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChsSEwjX6YL1nLyXAxWChlAGHVFnFAIYACICCAEQFBoCZG c&ae=2&aspm=1&co=1&ase=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw88HWBhA3EiwAo2Zd6MfAnIru6e9zdD3qi8sN lNsYkSyTTksobgSBAnCxS2czNzEHPp-EOBoCz4sQAvD_BwE&cid=CAAS0wHkaHHDenrKFMk7jk9e4vUX_2oBgO9xBsMJhvbYTG QiHDM0b8TOf44R_hcxRTpmCOpU_GOV-_NvjO-uL_KxWWkyzuv_EPOnQ5WIgJysEh4RV17km8BakdVapkwwFkYJ5 mdSrK_8Ag8O3BqqpYeJtB2TII4U3xxKlEoeZS9jizt55Lq_IZe RVINu7ng3maxi333fMFuZPvJadeGnb2n04VaXSUL-04BS84UkWSxBRsL4agCRATQXKACCVRhkS9I5vS7BepSrp1k9er Wjg--THzm3b3PC&cce=2&category=acrcp_v1_35&sig=AOD64_0vfRVEjHeT95ESpoAk6BFD4VPoEg&ctype=5&q=&nis=4&ved=2ahUKEwilvfv0nLyXAxVIQUEAHcWBA2cQ5bgDKAB6BAgME As&adurl=

And here's another one:

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChsSEwjX6YL1nLyXAxWChlAGHVFnFAIYACICCAEQJBoCZG c&co=1&ase=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw88HWBhA3EiwAo2Zd6AuQYtJEZVpsgsbAu8Eo hLk7nYVI6628ThH7c1DI1aanva0RYfsTYxoCqpgQAvD_BwE&cid=CAAS0wHkaHHDenrKFMk7jk9e4vUX_2oBgO9xBsMJhvbYTG QiHDM0b8TOf44R_hcxRTpmCOpU_GOV-_NvjO-uL_KxWWkyzuv_EPOnQ5WIgJysEh4RV17km8BakdVapkwwFkYJ5 mdSrK_8Ag8O3BqqpYeJtB2TII4U3xxKlEoeZS9jizt55Lq_IZe RVINu7ng3maxi333fMFuZPvJadeGnb2n04VaXSUL-04BS84UkWSxBRsL4agCRATQXKACCVRhkS9I5vS7BepSrp1k9er Wjg--THzm3b3PC&cce=2&category=acrcp_v1_32&sig=AOD64_22PbPtw5ZGKWriQWSMSuBbNQNOgg&ctype=5&q=&nis=4&ved=2ahUKEwilvfv0nLyXAxVIQUEAHcWBA2cQ5bgDKAB6BAgME BQ&adurl=


Just the first one I found, which does look minty. At least the ones you've linked to are affordable.


Still rather buy new. Peace of mind you see. Anyway, I would say when you're at this level, the room plays a bigger part than component changes.

No worries. Piece of mind is important.

The room plays the biggest part regardless of what any component changes can do:)

It's hard making a good sound in a bad room.

Marco.

[Stranraer]

Evening all.
I do realise I only ever post here to wang on about my Mark Levinson 390S but you have to admit at least it's definitely appropriate this time.
I can't speak for any other spendy disc spinner but for me the value is clear and evident with this unit. It's different.
From the wafer thin, solid aluminium machined drawer and heft of the remote control to the sound quality offered this has been a buy like no other and given the joy it's brought for over a decade now could be considered something of a bargain.
Unfortunately it now skips discs horrendously and has been permanently retired, replaced by a lovely but slightly inferior TEAC 701.
It still sounds mighty fine as a DAC/Pre mind, which is something in itself.
Build quality aside, the one thing that never failed to astonish and that the TEAC certainly can't replicate is the way in which the volume increases when the button is pressed.
Hard to describe what I mean here, but unlike any other player I've ever heard the sound doesn't exactly get louder, it swells like a balloon, a 3D wave, unfazed, relaxed and in complete control even at window rattling levels. The change is smooth as silk and there's no "bit too quiet, bit too loud" here. The perfect level can be delivered at all times.
Added to that the TEAC has a tiny edge, a minute harshness in comparison which actually works in it's favour when listening to low fi music as it adds a real thrill to bands like the Clash, Hookworms, Queens Of The Stone Age, but if you're in the mood for a sophisticated listen it's the Levinson all night long.
It's definitely on the warm side so wouldn't be everyone's ideal but if the question is Expensive Player, Worth It ? I can say categorically that in the case of the 390S it's a Yes.

[Pigmy Pony]

Evening all.
I do realise I only ever post here to wang on about my Mark Levinson 390S but you have to admit at least it's definitely appropriate this time.
I can't speak for any other spendy disc spinner but for me the value is clear and evident with this unit. It's different.
From the wafer thin, solid aluminium machined drawer and heft of the remote control to the sound quality offered this has been a buy like no other and given the joy it's brought for over a decade now could be considered something of a bargain.
Unfortunately it now skips discs horrendously and has been permanently retired, replaced by a lovely but slightly inferior TEAC 701.
It still sounds mighty fine as a DAC/Pre mind, which is something in itself.
Build quality aside, the one thing that never failed to astonish and that the TEAC certainly can't replicate is the way in which the volume increases when the button is pressed.
Hard to describe what I mean here, but unlike any other player I've ever heard the sound doesn't exactly get louder, it swells like a balloon, a 3D wave, unfazed, relaxed and in complete control even at window rattling levels. The change is smooth as silk and there's no "bit too quiet, bit too loud" here. The perfect level can be delivered at all times.
Added to that the TEAC has a tiny edge, a minute harshness in comparison which actually works in it's favour when listening to low fi music as it adds a real thrill to bands like the Clash, Hookworms, Queens Of The Stone Age, but if you're in the mood for a sophisticated listen it's the Levinson all night long.
It's definitely on the warm side so wouldn't be everyone's ideal but if the question is Expensive Player, Worth It ? I can say categorically that in the case of the 390S it's a Yes.

Have you not considered something like this? You never know, it might work. Worth a go on a quality player like the Levinson. If it can't be done then that just strengthens the case for avoiding expensive players.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/287628203149?_skw=mark+levinson+390s&itmmeta=01M58GGFY9Z0YXT7EZN968REFN&hash=item42f7fa148d:g:jZAAAOSwMTVig4eX&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAAA0CHNgUiiE%2FjQhlDTaMiAde9uT%2 BbGZdbaYHPK27KE2JmmRYTgQf%2Fym%2Bog9YROglcNzGItBuP EW0631IFqZjInv5O3LqFKVHle2gSoQOFwdG7inPRTtAj7sPuIZ O0vsAwdMXElZ%2Fc1e2byGCNPfA15sMrVb8Yp9b7zKT8DX6Cpd KghhJRX7kiFapX1W8QcjE8GfUGl%2B997bEqMUHGDeh1KrEQEG x1qpGSXsoZIgXWMagnafXTI9Zs%2BdaD6%2BO%2Fgv11MVqllO sJCWFOJU04LbYTxW7A%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7T_wZCqaA

[Barry]

That is an inferior replacement: nothing like as substantial as the original Philips industrial standard disc reader.

[Pigmy Pony]

:doh: I did not know that. So I suppose you would have to contact the manufacturer for a genuine part. If they couldn't help would that mean the end for the player? That would be a crying shame.

[Barry]

I'm not saying the disc reader you show wouldn't work, just that it is not as substantial and rugged as the original.

Contacting Madrigal, who took over Mark Levinson won't be of much help either, as Madrigal are not interesting in supporting older ML designs. In a word Madrigal are a fucking useless company to deal with, and I for one will never buy anything from them again.

[Macca]

The 390s is also preamplifier and DAC and has digital inputs so could be used that way with any CD player that has a digital output used as a transport into it.

The only difference I can see is that the transport CD player might not be as good at reading damaged discs as the Levinson but damaged discs are rarely a problem and most can be replaced for a few quid. Otherwise the sound should be identical to using the Levinson as an all in one unit.

As far as cost goes the 390s came out in 2004 so over 20 years of use isn't bad. I doubt cheap CD players being made now will match that longevity or even come close. Of course it depends how often you use it.

[Marco]

The more substantially built transport will be the best sounding one. These things make a difference:)

Marco.

[Macca]

The more substantially built transport will be the best sounding one. These things make a difference:)

Marco.

Can't agree, it's a digital signal, the transport has to very poor or faulty not to output that perfectly.

[Stranraer]

[QUOTE=Pigmy Pony;1413953]Have you not considered something like this? You never know, it might work. Worth a go on a quality player like the Levinson. If it can't be done then that just strengthens the case for avoiding expensive players.

Thanks Pigmy.
I did have a browse at options but as Barry says, it's not original so I was wary of replacement parts.
Plus, considering the age of the unit at what point do I bail ? It's bound to die at some point and I had already spent a few hundred to fix a previous fault and have it recapped back during lockdown.
Macca notes that the unit has digital inputs and I have been running it as a DAC/Pre with an Audiolab 6000 as transport which sounded lovely but I felt it was time to move on, especially as I was so taken with reports and reviews of the TEAC which I got at a cracking price and am very happy with.
So one box less, newer technology, and hopefully a good few years of trouble free listening.
I think I posted at the time, it feels like I've traded a tired old Bentley for a brand new Tesla.

[Stranraer]

As far as cost goes the 390s came out in 2004 so over 20 years of use isn't bad. I doubt cheap CD players being made now will match that longevity or even come close. Of course it depends how often you use it.
Must admit, it's been unplugged since the sun came out back in May but that'll change with Winter coming. Then it'll be getting more use than andrew windsor's lawyer !
As you know yourself, the TEAC is built like a tank and the brand has a reputation as a studio workhorse so fingers crossed it'll be seeing me out.

[Marco]

Can't agree, it's a digital signal, the transport has to very poor or faulty not to output that perfectly.

But the other day we were talking about die-cast metal mechanisms in the likes of Barry's ML and my Sony, and I thought we agreed that such things mattered?

However, you're looking in the wrong area. I'm talking about the effects of vibration and it's audible effect in the signal path: a plastic transport mech will be more resonant than a metal one - and you can hear it, certainly in my experience.

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

Skipping can also be due to a failing belt. People automatically assume that skipping means it's the laser although that's rarely the case. But it could also be any number of other things too.

Took the Marantz into Richer Sounds this morning. Bloke there is pretty confident the fault will be the belt, as you suggested :) I know you said they are about a fiver, but I wouldn't be confident messing with it. If they can sort it for the sixty quid I advanced I'll be ok with that.

[Macca]

But the other day we were talking about die-cast metal mechanisms in the likes of Barry's ML and my Sony, and I thought we agreed that such things mattered?

However, you're looking in the wrong area. I'm talking about the effects of vibration and it's audible effect in the signal path: a plastic transport mech will be more resonant than a metal one - and you can hear it, certainly in my experience.

Marco.

Better transport will read damaged discs to greater extent and will probably last longer, but that's really about it.

If vibration is affecting a digital signal you'd get drop outs in the signal, not slightly worse sound quality. All players buffer to some degree so the level of vibration has to be quite high. Much higher than when it's sat on a shelf in a room.

[Marco]

Better transport will read damaged discs to greater extent and will probably last longer, but that's really about it.


I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree, as it's not what my experience tells me.

Sony built the X-777ES with a die-cast metal transport mechanism not just to help make it last longer, but to control vibration. There are many areas of its design that do similar, obvious when you look under the hood, such as dampening foam on the PSU caps, so it's clearly an area Sony felt was necessary to address in their statement products.

Marco.

[Macca]

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree, as it's not what my experience tells me.

Sony built the X-777ES with a die-cast metal transport mechanism not just to help make it last longer, but to control vibration. There are many areas of its design that do similar, obvious when you look under the hood, such as dampening foam on the PSU caps, so it's clearly an area Sony felt was necessary to address in their statement products.

Marco.

Yeah my TEAC 701 transport has the same but IMV it's all just over-engineering to create a USP and partly justify the high price. If you look at the measurements (which you won't of course!) performance is no different from a much cheaper player or transport. Personally I couldn't hear any difference from the Audiolab transport that it replaced, and that has a slot loading drive originally intended to be used in cars.

[Marco]

If you look at the measurements (which you won't of course!) performance is no different from a much cheaper player or transport.

Lol yes, but you need to be measuring for the right things, with the right equipment...;)

Like I said, you're looking in the wrong area. It's not about 'performance'.

Marco.

[Stranraer]

Personally I couldn't hear any difference from the Audiolab transport that it replaced, and that has a slot loading drive originally intended to be used in cars.
I bet you can hear that the TEAC doesn't sound like an industrial coffee grinder when discs are going in or out, though :)

[Macca]

I bet you can hear that the TEAC doesn't sound like an industrial coffee grinder when discs are going in or out, though :)

It is silent in operation, which does matter!

[Lawrence001]

In a word Madrigal are a fucking useless company to deal with, and I for one will never buy anything from them again.

Not often I see you using that language Barry, I take it you've had issues with them yourself?

[Barry]

No it's true I don't often expletives, but Madrigal really are a lousy company displaying no interest in aftersales service. It is not just me, hifi_dave will confirm my opinion - and he is in the trade.

What really annoyed me was Madrigal having bought out Levinson, decided they wanted everything 'under one roof', including their service department. That meant sacking all the service and repair engineers used by Levinson, and to make matters worse, they dispensed with all the specialised components that went into early ML gear.

A truly excellent repair expert in the UK: The High End Workshop, that specialises in upmarket US audio electronics, such as Mark Levinson, Audio Research, Krell etc. now no longer repair or service Levinson products, precisely because of Madrigal's lack of interest or help in older designs.

Madrigal are not the only company to do this: it's a fairly common practice these days. In the past if you bought say an amplifier, along with the installation and operating instructions, there would be a circuit diagram and a list of components, their makes and values. Thus if something went wrong a competent EE could diagnose the fault and repair the item. Not today!

[Pigmy Pony]

No it's true I don't often expletives, but Madrigal really are a lousy company displaying no interest in aftersales service. It is not just me, hifi_dave will confirm my opinion - and he is in the trade.

What really annoyed me was Madrigal having bought out Levinson, decided they wanted everything 'under one roof', including their service department. That meant sacking all the service and repair engineers used by Levinson, and to make matters worse, they dispensed with all the specialised components that went into early ML gear.

A truly excellent repair expert in the UK: The High End Workshop, that specialises in upmarket US audio electronics, such as Mark Levinson, Audio Research, Krell etc. now no longer repair or service Levinson products, precisely because of Madrigal's lack of interest or help in older designs.

Madrigal are not the only company to do this: it's a fairly common practice these days. In the past if you bought say an amplifier, along with the installation and operating instructions, there would be a circuit diagram and a list of components, their makes and values. Thus if something went wrong a competent EE could diagnose the fault and repair the item. Not today!

These are the things no manufacturer or salesman will tell you at the point of sale :( Be nice if there was some kind of database pointing out the heroes and villains, and giving purchasers some degree of confidence that they will be supported, should things go tits up.

[Macca]

Nothing gets supported for ever, who can make such a guarantee? If there's enough demand a third party will come along to do that like with MG cars but expensive hi-fi is too niche. Added to which they want you to buy a new one.

Most things we get maybe ten or twenty years out of then accept we have to replace it. Why would hi-fi be different?

Stuff that barely lasts until the warrantee expires is a different matter, but that's usually just the bargain basement kit, you can't expect more at that level.

[Pigmy Pony]

Nothing gets supported for ever, who can make such a guarantee? If there's enough demand a third party will come along to do that like with MG cars but expensive hi-fi is too niche. Added to which they want you to buy a new one.

Most things we get maybe ten or twenty years out of then accept we have to replace it. Why would hi-fi be different?

Stuff that barely lasts until the warrantee expires is a different matter, but that's usually just the bargain basement kit, you can't expect more at that level.

You're right of course Martin, I hadn't thought it through properly. And if someone was deciding whether to spend on a new high-end bit of kit or roll the dice with an even better quality but ageing option, there will be enough info available to highlight the pros and cons. Just have to research it properly first. Like CD players with well-built but obsolete transports, or for instance Sony's unobtainable v-fet transistors and so-called "death diodes".

[Macca]

You're right of course Martin, I hadn't thought it through properly. And if someone was deciding whether to spend on a new high-end bit of kit or roll the dice with an even better quality but ageing option, there will be enough info available to highlight the pros and cons. Just have to research it properly first. Like CD players with well-built but obsolete transports, or for instance Sony's unobtainable v-fet transistors and so-called "death diodes".

I've bought a container load of second hand equipment over the years, these days the only thing I'd be comfortable buying used is speakers, and only if I can have a listen first to check there's no problems. Or if they were very cheap. Lots of perfectly good amps and DACs and CD players available new at reasonable prices, why take a chance spending thousands on something 20 odd years old?

Yes I bought my Sony pre second hand and it was 34 years old but it was £350 which I could afford to write off. And modern pre-amps are mostly bland or ugly looking, and the looks were my primary concern, so there wasn't another option.

The Krell power amps I have of the three, two needed work. Happily Alan sorted them out for me but I'd rather not rely on people being good enough to do favours and a commercial repair would have been very expensive since I know it took him a while to locate the issue and a commercial repair man would be billing you £50 an hour or more for that fault-finding time.

At the time I e-mailed Krell for the schematic which they e-mailed me back right away, which was helpful, but they are now no longer in business. I don't know exactly how many people have asked me for that schematic since but it's a fair few.

I probably have six or seven vintage CD players that all need fixing, which is almost certainly never going to happen. Buying this old stuff really makes no sense unless it's already been fully tested and any issues dealt with.

[Barry]

I have an iron that was manufactured in East Germany. It is 50 years old, and apart from me changing the cable, still works. I could replace the cable because the iron was designed to be repairable. Many domestic electrical items are not designed to be repaired: covers click into place with plastic barbed tongues which can't be undone. This makes the item a little cheaper to make, but more importantly makes it impossible to repair; so you have to buy anew.

I don't see why Madrigal cannot suggest outfits that are willing, and able, to service the older designs in their portfolio. It's all part of the modern attitude of buy, use and then throw away when it stops working.

[Macca]

I have an iron that was manufactured in East Germany. It is 50 years old, and apart from me changing the cable, still works. I could replace the cable because the iron was designed to be repairable. Many domestic electrical items are not designed to be repaired: covers click into place with plastic barbed tongues which can't be undone. This makes the item a little cheaper to make, but more importantly makes it impossible to repair; so you have to buy anew.

I don't see why Madrigal cannot suggest outfits that are willing, and able, to service the older designs in their portfolio. It's all part of the modern attitude of buy, use and then throw away when it stops working.

How many people could change the cord on an iron, how many would be confident doing that, how many would be competent to do that - no matter how confident they are? I think the answer is very few. The alternative is to pay someone competent to do it, which is more expensive than buying a new iron. So I think it is not so much 'attitude' as it is hard practical reality.

Madrigal/Mark Levinson are more interested in selling you a new amp than helping you find a repairer, I mean that's hardly surprising. It's a business, if it doesn't make money they're all out of a job and there's no profit in giving you free assistance to fix a product made 30 or 40 years ago when a lot of their employees were still at school or not even born yet.

There's the odd exception where the firm is small and privately owned, like Accuphase for example, and part of their USP is that you can just buy once and use it forever. But you pay a massive premium for that. Levinson has changed hands multiple times, I think it's a subsidiary of Samsung now. Levinson even sold his name. If you wanted an amp with cradle to grave support, you backed the wrong horse.

[Barry]

I still have equipment that had a 'cradle to grave' support: it was made by Quad, who then claimed they would repair and service any product they had made as long as parts and materials were available. Now that Quad is now owned by a Taiwanese company, that ability is no longer available.

You say the same promise is still made by Accuphase, if so that is good to know, but given what you say about Madrigal for how much longer?

[Barry]

Apropos my changing the cable on my iron, yes I was and still am competent to do it. But agree that many aren't. That is why every domestic electrical compliance now comes fitted with a mains plug. Some of the plugs have a removable cover so you can inspect the connections, with others the plug is moulded on and you cannot inspect the wiring. The latter sometimes are so badly fitted that a stray strand of wire has been known to have come through the plastic moulding.

So I check these things very carefully and would actually prefer to fit the plug myself. (It is also why I prefer to make up my audio cables. Some of the soldering done on commercial cables, be they RCA phono or XLR type, is often very poor and untidy.)

[Macca]

I still have equipment that had a 'cradle to grave' support: it was made by Quad, who then claimed they would repair and service any product they had made as long as parts and materials were available. Now that Quad is now owned by a Taiwanese company, that ability is no longer available.

You say the same promise is still made by Accuphase, if so that is good to know, but given what you say about Madrigal for how much longer?

It's always possible that at some point Accuphase would sell out to some big corporation but there's no sign of that happening. They deliberately limit production and how much they export, it's all in the old Japanese family craftsman tradition.

By contrast, Levinson IMO was a bit of a chancer. I think he was just a marketing man, I don't think he actually designed any of the equipment himself, he got people in to do it. And when he had the chance to sell the brand and even the rights to his name, he did so. Then IIRC he was bringing in cheap China-made equipment and selling it as 'Madrigal' for top dollar. Had a demo of it in New York years ago now (2000) wasn't impressed. It was not bad, but IMO not remotely worth the money.

Have to say I thought QUAD still had a UK based service department that supported all their kit, maybe that has gone now, I don't know.

[Marco]

That's why I like buying from specialist one-man bands, such as Anthony (Tube Distinctions) and Croft (Glenn Croft), whose equipment can be fixed or serviced as long as they remain alive, and if necessary afterwards by any competent EE. Nothing in their designs is 'unobtanium':)

Marco.

[Marco]

Like CD players with well-built but obsolete transports, or for instance Sony's unobtainable v-fet transistors and so-called "death diodes".

Where did you get that information from? It's new to me.

Thing is, as you found from a search the other day, there are plenty of vintage Sony CDPs on the used market, which can be bought for spare parts, so if you know a good EE, repairing them really isn't an issue.

Marco.

[Barry]

It's always possible that at some point Accuphase would sell out to some big corporation but there's no sign of that happening. They deliberately limit production and how much they export, it's all in the old Japanese family craftsman tradition.

By contrast, Levinson IMO was a bit of a chancer. I think he was just a marketing man, I don't think he actually designed any of the equipment himself, he got people in to do it. And when he had the chance to sell the brand and even the rights to his name, he did so. Then IIRC he was bringing in cheap China-made equipment and selling it as 'Madrigal' for top dollar. Had a demo of it in New York years ago now (2000) wasn't impressed. It was not bad, but IMO not remotely worth the money.

Have to say I thought QUAD still had a UK based service department that supported all their kit, maybe that has gone now, I don't know.

It is a bit academic now, but you are right in as much to say Levinson was an 'interesting' character. Originally Levinson intended to travel to India to learn to play the sarod (?), an Indian stringed instrument. On the way he stopped off in Switzerland to buy a portable tape recorder. Whilst visiting the Stellavox company, he was so impressed with the quality of their products, he did a complete volte face and returned to the US with the intention of starting his own audio electronics company.

The first items he made was a mixing desk used at the Woodstock festival. These were designed by him and used propriatory Burwen audio modules. The next designs were started by him, but finished by John Curl, who went on to design subsequent items for ML (which is why their designations are JC .. ). After the JC-2 preamp, Curl left the company to be replaced by Tom Colangelo, and the designations returned to the ML .. notation.

After selling Mark Levinson Audio Systems to Madrigal, Levinson started a new audio company Cello, retaining Colangelo as designer. In turn Cello 'morphed' into Red Rose which, I believe, used a Chinese company to build the valve-based electronics. By this time Colangelo had left to start up his own company: Viola.
So yes, an interesting career and an interesting character.

[Lawrence001]

Didn't people also complain that some Red Rose speakers were OEM Chinese with a big markup for the name? I initially refused to believe that because of his name but I now know better.

[Pigmy Pony]

Where did you get that information from? It's new to me.

Thing is, as you found from a search the other day, there are plenty of vintage Sony CDPs on the used market, which can be bought for spare parts, so if you know a good EE, repairing them really isn't an issue.

Marco.

Plenty of places where they get mentioned, here's just one of them:

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/sony-ta-5650-vfet-service.304594/

Post #19 by Arkless probably sums up the (potential) problems perfectly.

You're right about the vintage Sony CDPs, though I wouldn't describe them as 'plentiful'... you could buy one to provide spares for your own, but really there's no way of knowing whether that would last much longer either.

[Marco]

I've been using my Sony for the last 20+ years without a single fault - and it gets used plenty - as it's built to last, so if I had to buy another one for spare parts I'd have no reason to believe it wouldn't be just as reliable. No guarantees of course, but the history is there.

I'm not expecting you to go down this route yourself, as I know it's not your thing, but it works for me:)

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

I've been using my Sony for the last 20+ years without a single fault - and it gets used plenty - as it's built to last, so if I had to buy another one for spare parts I'd have no reason to believe it wouldn't be just as reliable. No guarantees of course, but the history is there.

I'm not expecting you to go down this route yourself, as I know it's not your thing, but it works for me:)

Marco.

That we do agree on, we're both happy with our lot, and long may that continue :)

[Lawrence001]

I've been using my Sony for the last 20+ years without a single fault - and it gets used plenty - as it's built to last, so if I had to buy another one for spare parts I'd have no reason to believe it wouldn't be just as reliable. No guarantees of course, but the history is there.

I'm not expecting you to go down this route yourself, as I know it's not your thing, but it works for me:)

Marco.

The problem is they may be reliable but if they last say 25 years with typical usage and yours goes, a similar generation one will be due to go around the same time. A newer one will last longer but probably not have the same components. If you can buy NOS of course that's different but they'll be rare as hens' teeth.

[Marco]

The problem is they may be reliable but if they last say 25 years with typical usage and yours goes, a similar generation one will be due to go around the same time.

That depends on how much usage it's had. You cannot predict these things. Anyway, I think I'll worry about this when something actually happens!:D

Marco.

[CageyH]

My Pioneer PD-S703 is between 30 to 32 years old and still operates flawlessly.
I did upgrade the op amps to Burson V6 Vivids that improved the sound, but these are now redundant, as I use the coax out into my DAC.
It was never a highend player, but works remarkably well as a transport.

If it breaks, I will see if my Alpha 7se still works.
I always wanted an Alpha 8se, and I saw one for sale locally recently.

[Lawrence001]

That depends on how much usage it's had. You cannot predict these things. Anyway, I think I'll worry about this when something actually happens!:D

Marco.So you're not one of those audiophiles that keeps 5 of everything in case they break down? [emoji23]

[walpurgis]

My Pioneer PD-S703 is between 30 to 32 years old and still operates flawlessly.

So does my old Pioneer PD-S505 Precision and I have a spare back-up. They sound fine as a stand alone player and work great as transports if I bung the Monarchy M22B DAC into the equation or the very worthy Musical Fidelity V-DAC. I also have the Trichord Research 'Digital Turntable' transport, which also uses a similar Pioneer mechanism. Had loads of other makes, but won't change now.

[Macca]

That's why I like buying from specialist one-man bands, such as Anthony (Tube Distinctions) and Croft (Glenn Croft), whose equipment can be fixed or serviced as long as they remain alive, and if necessary afterwards by any competent EE. Nothing in their designs is 'unobtanium':)

Marco.

Valve amps are much simpler designs to begin with and usually point to point wiring so much easier to fix (for someone who knows what they're doing).

Most solid state amps don't use 'unobtainium' parts either but are usually more complex so can take a lot more time to find the fault and that's where the repair cost can mount up. Modern ones often use surface mount components which also makes life harder for the repairer.

[Macca]

After selling Mark Levinson Audio Systems to Madrigal, Levinson started a new audio company Cello, retaining Colangelo as designer. In turn Cello 'morphed' into Red Rose which, I believe, used a Chinese company to build the valve-based electronics. By this time Colangelo had left to start up his own company: Viola.
.

Oh yes, 'Red Rose' was what I listened to in NYC, not Madrigal. It was a quarter of a century ago now!

[Marco]

Valve amps are much simpler designs to begin with and usually point to point wiring so much easier to fix (for someone who knows what they're doing).

Most solid state amps don't use 'unobtainium' parts either but are usually more complex so can take a lot more time to find the fault and that's where the repair cost can mount up. Modern ones often use surface mount components which also makes life harder for the repairer.

All true, and another good reason to use valve amps!:)

Marco.

[CageyH]

Can younstill source good "power" valves at sensible prices?

[Marco]

So you're not one of those audiophiles that keeps 5 of everything in case they break down? [emoji23]

No, lol!

Nor a surplus of equipment to 'collect', some of which is broken... I have one of everything I need (save speakers and cartridges), and that's ample, until I decide to change - and I'm no box-swapper.

Marco.

[Marco]

Can younstill source good "power" valves at sensible prices?

Yes, KT88s, KT120s and 150s are readily available brand new at reasonable prices.

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

Took the Marantz into Richer Sounds this morning. Bloke there is pretty confident the fault will be the belt, as you suggested :) I know you said they are about a fiver, but I wouldn't be confident messing with it. If they can sort it for the sixty quid I advanced I'll be ok with that.

An update on my Marantz CD player:

This morning Howie from the shop phoned to inform me that the player had been damaged by the courier, and by way of compensation, I could give them an extra £60 (bringing the total outlay to £120), and they will give me a brand-new CD6007 (the later version of my player, currently selling for £350 reduced from £400), complete with 5 year guarantee :) I didn't have to think too long about that offer, so the CDP should be with me Tuesday...

I was already a fan of Richers and their wonderful enthusiastic and motivated staff, this just piles on the goodwill :)

[Marco]

Richers are quality and show some snobby independent hi-fi dealers how it should be done!

Glad you got things sorted:)

Marco.

[Macca]

Good result. I've been using Richers for almost 40 years, never had a single bad experience.

[Pigmy Pony]

Cheers guys. Roll on Tuesday :)

[CageyH]

You can't argue with service like that.
I hope the new one escapes being damaged.