Weirdness, solved.

[Filterlab]

I've been having some real problems with my, frankly quite simple, system.

The frequency range coverage has been all over the place. My analysis tools that I use to get my studio monitoring system as flat as a pancake literally went into meltdown. A +6dB hump between 79Hz and 119Hz, and then a massive dip, and then a +3dB hump from 200Hz-ish to 300Hz. And then wobbles all over the shop making voices cloudy, treble harsh, and general, audible instability creating a cacophony of rubbish.

Analysis and parametric EQing helped flatten things out, but it was like sticking a plaster over it. Semi-solved, but not really a satisfactory answer and the system still sounded terrible.

I spent literally hours moving the speakers, analysing, applying curves (my lounge system DAC is actually a studio DAC, so has all the adjustments one would ever need), listening, moving, curving, listening, moving, curving. Better, but better junk.

Resigned to the fact that my room and system didn't work well together, I gave up and decided to just not listen. I blamed the speakers, the room, the amp, the rug, the dogs, the weather and anything else I could think of.

And then it dawned on me. When I set the system up originally I used my Van Damme 4.00mm tour grade speaker cables that I had in my box of Hi-Fi plethora. Really good cables, and extremely low impedance at 0.00045Ω per metre. They were a bit short so I decided to order the Van Damme 4.00mm domestic cables, which are prettier. When I thought about 'when the problem started', I realised it was after the new cables went in.

In the loft I went, found the tour grade cables, and swapped them over. Before doing any listening, I went into the DAC's ferociously deep and complex menu, and zeroed absolutely everything - flat as a pancake, as it should be.

Started playing something - and bang! Perfecto. Clean, even and crisp; like a good pizza.

Now, I don't care why two near-identical cables from the same manufacturer should be so electrically different (the tour grade is a few thick strands, the domestic a very multi-strand), but the difference is staggering.

So the thing to take away from this post is... anything can be the cause of the problem, and don't discount something because you imagine it should make no difference.

I've used the 4.00mm domestic cable in many systems and never had a single issue, but in this system it was a stinker.

[User211]

What speakers and amps are you using?

Just cable foo curious.

[Barry]

Do your preferred Van Damme speaker cables have a 'shotgun' style construction with clear insulation, and a separating strip which is marked: Van Damme LC-OFC LOUDSPEAKER 268-504-000 2 x 4.0mm sq TOTAL DEFINITION DIRECTIONAL HI-FI.

The insulation is clear PVC with directional arrows marked on the side of one of the conductors. The stranding may look to be a few thick conductors, but are actually 7 twisted bunches of 73 x 0.1mm diameter copper wire, so total cross-section area of 4.01mm2.

I have a set of these cables which I have used at one time


I can't find information about your Van Damme "domestic" cable, can you describe their appearence?

[Filterlab]

What speakers and amps are you using?

Just cable foo curious.
They're mentioned in my signature.

Emotiva A2+ power amplifier
Neat Motive SX1 speakers

[Filterlab]

Do your preferred Van Damme speaker cables have a 'shotgun' style construction with clear insulation, and a separating strip which is marked: Van Damme LC-OFC LOUDSPEAKER 268-504-000 2 x 4.0mm sq TOTAL DEFINITION DIRECTIONAL HI-FI.

The insulation is clear PVC with directional arrows marked on the side of one of the conductors. The stranding may look to be a few thick conductors, but are actually 7 twisted bunches of 73 x 0.1mm diameter copper wire, so total cross-section area of 4.01mm2.

I have a set of these cables which I have used at one time


I can't find information about your Van Damme "domestic" cable, can you describe their appearence?

The domestic ones have the clear sleeving and many strands woven into thicker strands. The tour grade are heavily sheathed with fewer, thick strands. The tour grade are the ones that work.

Work...

https://i.ibb.co/vNbJTPt/IMG-4003.jpg (https://ibb.co/yzD8Zy3)

Don't work...

https://i.ibb.co/BH50hQqr/IMG-4002.webp (https://ibb.co/1YtFCP8d)

Both Van Damme 4.00mm, just different purposes and electrical properties (seemingly).

[Barry]

I have a 1 metre pair of Van Damme 268-545-000 2 core 4mm2 twin axial cable, marked as: BLACK SERIES CONCERT GRADE UPOFC CLASSIC PRO LOUDSPEAKER CABLE, which look identical to those shown in the first photograph. They have two cores each comprising 50 x 0.3mm diameter strands, having a resistance of 4.5 Ohm/km. The overall black PVC sheath is 12.4mm in diameter.

The cables shown in the second photograph are the 268-504-000, which I mentioned in my post. They too have a similar resistance of 4.7 Ohm/km.

So the only difference between the two pairs is the stranding and the inter-conductor capacitance per unit length, the latter of which are not quoted by Van Damme. I don't understand why the two types should have such a large effect on your system, but clearly they do.

[Filterlab]

Nor me, but it's night and day - or rather unlistenable and listenable.

The tour grade is a 16mm sheath, and 4.5 Ohms per kilometre.

[Barry]

The figures I quoted were the Van Damme specification, and in your photo you can clearly see the word CONCERT on the black sheath. I have just measured the OD and it is 12.4mm agreeing with that quoted by Van Damme.. So the 'Tour' grade must a different version, which it would seem is no longer made. Are you able to quote the XXX-XXX-000 number on the sleeve?

I have used both of the two cables (1 metre long) with Quad ESLs and Quad 510 monoblock amplifiers. I could hear no difference between the two.

The only explanation I can come up with is that the connection to one of the plugs on the faulty cable had corroded or was a 'dry' soldered joint. That would explain the erratic performance, and the change from "un-listenable" to "listenable".

[Filterlab]

Those were just quickly-grabbed pictures from the web.

The tour grade looks the same, but it's heavier. Still available as I bought 4 metres of it yesterday.

Not soldered plugs, I use Nakamichi fan lock which were solid as a rock. The cable and the plugs were brand new a few weeks ago.

[Barry]

I'm becoming confused: the faulty cables (those with the clear plastic sheathing) are only four weeks old, and you assembled them with the Nakamichi plugs yourself. When did you notice the problem, as soon as you used them, or later?

The 'weirdness' may have been solved, but not explained.

[Pete The Cat]

So the thing to take away from this post is... anything can be the cause of the problem, and don't discount something because you imagine it should make no difference.

So true. When dealing with a problem I've found that my impatience or thinking that I know best has sent me down blind alleys in the past and I've had carpet burn from crawling round on all fours repeatedly moving/plugging/unplugging stuff. It's always worth starting with 'what did I change and when'.

[Filterlab]

I'm becoming confused: the faulty cables (those with the clear plastic sheathing) are only four weeks old, and you assembled them with the Nakamichi plugs yourself. When did you notice the problem, as soon as you used them, or later?

The 'weirdness' may have been solved, but not explained.
I noticed it a couple of days after I put them in when watching a series. I hadn't done any listening up to that point as I was up to my neck in DIY. Obviously I'd checked that the system played ok, but then not used it.

It slipped my mind completely that I'd changed the cables.

Upon putting the tour grade cables back in (using the same fanlock plugs I might add) the problems were instantly resolved. As they're a bit short, I have new cable coming in so I'll swap the shorts for the longs.

It is odd, but all I can surmise is that my system doesn't like the domestic variant of that cable. It works exceptionally well now so I'll stick with the tour grade.

And who, really, can ever fully explain hifi? What 'should work' or 'shouldn't make a difference' sometimes doesn't and does. :D

[Filterlab]

So true. When dealing with a problem I've found that my impatience or thinking that I know best has sent me down blind alleys in the past and I've had carpet burn from crawling round on all fours repeatedly moving/plugging/unplugging stuff. It's always worth starting with 'what did I change and when'.

Indeed, and that's exactly what I didn't do! :D

[Macca]

.

In the loft I went, found the tour grade cables, and swapped them over. Before doing any listening, I went into the DAC's ferociously deep and complex menu, and zeroed absolutely everything - flat as a pancake, as it should be.
.

Maybe if you left the DAC as it was configured previously it would have sounded the same (i.e bad) when you swapped to the new cables? I think it more likely that some setting you changed in the DAC was responsible, rather than the cables. You could check that by leaving the DAC settings as it is now and just swapping back to the other cables - if you can be arsed!

[Filterlab]

Maybe if you left the DAC as it was configured previously it would have sounded the same (i.e bad) when you swapped to the new cables? I think it more likely that some setting you changed in the DAC was responsible, rather than the cables. You could check that by leaving the DAC settings as it is now and just swapping back to the other cables - if you can be arsed!

Given the amount of adjustment I'd tried to make, it would have been terrible. But I was trying to offset the mess with the parametric EQ, and that had been applied over several rectification sessions.

The DAC was originally flat when the new cables went in. I've rarely used the parametric EQ for my main system, aside from a tweak or two with various set ups. I ensured it was set to flat with the newer cables in, but it sounded atrocious. The parametric adjustments were made subsequently.

It's now flat again with the tour grade cables and all is well - no adjustment needed.

It is an odd one, but I won't use the newer cables again in this system, there's no point in messing around with them now as the moment they came out all was rectified.