Second Hand Headphones

[Pete The Cat]

From my (admittedly small) view of the world headphones are a component where sound quality has improved in greater measure than many other components over the past 30 years.

Headphone manufacturers seem to release new ranges frequently, partly I guess due to fashion. This means that there are cracking bargains to be had from discontinued models.

I grew up with Sennheisers. Although I have a pair of HD600s, I find the 'house sound' on some models a bit unexciting. If that means I like colour over neutrality then I'm guilty (I also have Denon AH D2000s and Beyer DT990s which sound fuller).

A few months ago I pulled the trigger on AKG K245s for £30 just out of curiosity to use at desktop while I'm working. They retail c£70 so they're at the affordable end of today's range anyway, but I was really impressed with the richness and body of the sound...

...so much so that a few weeks later I picked up a pair of AKG K845BTs, also for £30. These used to retail new c£250 when they came out in 2013. Their Bluetooth is an early generation but wired they're fabulous, right up there with the Denons which when new had a similar retail price.

I regularly see old range HD5-- series, AKG and B&W cans selling under £50. If your experience of headphones is from a long while ago it's well worth having a look into the performance that you can get for small outlay these days.

[Pigmy Pony]

I have AKG's K550 cans, which are pretty much all I need. More than happy with the sound, especially as I don't often use them. Unfortunately the foam earpads and headband have almost completely disintegrated, so whenever I've worn them I look like I've just survived an explosion in a coal mine :( How are your 845BTs holding up in this way?

[Pigmy Pony]

Just been having a look on Ebay - have you seen this? :eek:

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChsSEwil3Nmc3pCVAxWIpVAGHYmEK8oYACICCAEQARoCZG c&ae=2&aspm=1&co=1&ase=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrs7RBhDuARIsAIVfBD02wgomFnvBSxL8eot4 mzVAu0rO61FDTKJrhDxEcH00LKIygE0XMX0aAmduEALw_wcB&ei=Td0zau-LM4mohbIPmf3esQw&cid=CAASJeRo1gWD4Xp6qzXCMoVdUxly9tt-RXuHRp-tgB03YnaRh3ynzdg&cce=2&category=acrcp_v1_35&sig=AOD64_34WuladDAhYkfCz2T89-xLENCjTg&ctype=5&q=&nis=4&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwiv5tOc3pCVAxUJVEEAHZm-N8YQ5bgDKAB6BAgLEAs&adurl=

[Pete The Cat]

I have AKG's K550 cans, which are pretty much all I need. More than happy with the sound, especially as I don't often use them. Unfortunately the foam earpads and headband have almost completely disintegrated, so whenever I've worn them I look like I've just survived an explosion in a coal mine :( How are your 845BTs holding up in this way?

K550s are very favourably reviewed.

There seems to be a whole industry of after-market headbands and earpads in Asia. A while back I bought some new earpads for AKG Y50s (I seem to have as many pairs of cans lying in drawers as I do spare mobile phone leads...) The company was Geekria, I think their name is a deliberate pun on geek and your ear (!) They're on Amazon. From memory they stocked a wide range that is very model-specific and they receive better feedback than some of the Ali Express/Temu outfits.

My K845BTs are in OK condition, their headband surface is flaking but I can live with that. It's black, so it doesn't make me look like I've got dandruff.

[Pete The Cat]

Just been having a look on Ebay - have you seen this? :eek:

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChsSEwil3Nmc3pCVAxWIpVAGHYmEK8oYACICCAEQARoCZG c&ae=2&aspm=1&co=1&ase=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrs7RBhDuARIsAIVfBD02wgomFnvBSxL8eot4 mzVAu0rO61FDTKJrhDxEcH00LKIygE0XMX0aAmduEALw_wcB&ei=Td0zau-LM4mohbIPmf3esQw&cid=CAASJeRo1gWD4Xp6qzXCMoVdUxly9tt-RXuHRp-tgB03YnaRh3ynzdg&cce=2&category=acrcp_v1_35&sig=AOD64_34WuladDAhYkfCz2T89-xLENCjTg&ctype=5&q=&nis=4&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwiv5tOc3pCVAxUJVEEAHZm-N8YQ5bgDKAB6BAgLEAs&adurl=

Yes, must say I was a bit bemused and although Head-Fi has very, very long threads on such things I couldn't find very much technical detail elsewhere.

As I understand it they're a special edition in the colours of some manga/anime cult thingy that some folks pay the earth for these days. They have a game DVD with them. Those are probably what propel the price. Other than that the actual cans don't actually look different to mine; I imagine that they must at least have the most up-to-date Bluetooth codec.

I think if I was going to pay that money for cans I'd be looking to go electrostatic.

[Pigmy Pony]

My first headphones, soon after starting work. Got from my mate's mum's Grattan catalogue, £1 a week for 20 weeks :) I thought they were shit hot. But that was 50+ years ago. No idea how they would compare to modern cans, but I have thought about getting some to find out. Even if they're a bit crap, they do have a certain retro cool to my eyes. Plenty knocking about on Ebay.

Note: these aren't mine, just some random pic off tinternet.

https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/bargainhunt/15/779215/H4097-L384243134_original.JPG

[Pete The Cat]

Wow. A deep cone was all the rage back then, I remember the likes of Koss looked that way too.

My first headphones were HD410s. £19.99 from Superfi in Nottingham (funny how you can remember these things but forget tomorrow's dental check-up appointment). At the time that model was a typical knockabout in small studios and local radio. Although they're still clear and detailed they have no bass whatsoever compared with today's budget cans.

[Barry]

I have a pair of Koss Pro 4AA headphones: heavy, uncomfortable, sweaty and "closed-in". They also have a heavy coiled lead which tends to pull down on one side.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/f8gAAeSw8ohqCYfz/s-l1600.webp
Koss Pro 4AA

I also have a pair of Koss ESP-6 electrostatic headphones, which look and feel similar to the Pro 4AA. I don't like them either. There is a problem with one of the transducers, and as Koss as a company are no longer in business, I cannot get them repaired. They did sound better than the Pro 4AA, the only disadvantage being they run off the speaker output of the amplifier.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/st0AAeSw1M5qHVdE/s-l1600.webp
Koss ESP-6

As you can tell I don't like either of them - but then I don't like listening on headphones for any length of time. Possibly the only headphones I could put up with were some cheap Sony pairs which I bought in HMV when they were open. Like those that you have discussed in the previous posts, the ear pads have worn badly. That was one of the few, if only good thing about the Koss phones; the headband and the ear cups have not worn badly at all.

[Pigmy Pony]

My headphones only get used occasionally, mostly to better hear something on my laptop, and can go for months unused So the foam in the ear cups and headband disintegrated without any help from me.

The foam in my sofa cushions holds up really well, despite having to suffer the trauma of my arse for hours on end. Why can't ear pads use the same foam? Makes no sense.

[Pete The Cat]

Nowadays user comfort is a design consideration for headphones. Not all get it right by any means but they're less medieval. Clamping, sweatiness, on/around ear comfort and so on feature get scored in reviews. A few years ago I had a pair of B&W P3s and they just floated over my ears, I could forget I was wearing them, shame their tone was on the dark side of warm and so they had to go.

I'll never prefer headphones to speakers but the industry has raised performance to such a level in recent years that I go out of my way to use them when I'm working on my own, travelling or in the garden.

[Pigmy Pony]

When it comes to choosing headphones, I think careful auditioning of as many models as possible is the order of the day. maybe more important than with any other component.

One or two audio shows I've attended have had rooms dedicated to demo'ing cans, and I found that many models, irrespective of price, made my ears bleed. And that's despite my deafness at high frequencies. We're all different. Unless a tilted-up freq response is what the manufacturers are shooting for.

I think I liked it better when arriving home from the pub, my 'headphones' were two speakers facing each other with a big enough gap between them for my head when lying on the floor :)

[Tim]

I have two pairs of Sennheiser HD 650's - love them, use them all the time, super comfortable and can wear them for hours. Just did in fact, watched a 2 hour film with them on and about to do another one :)

[Barry]

I have two pairs of Sennheiser HD 650's - love them, use them all the time, super comfortable and can wear them for hours. Just did in fact, watched a 2 hour film with them on and about to do another one :)

i can't imagine wearing headphones for up to four or more hours!

[Barry]

At one time, I thought about using the Jecklin Float electrostatic headset:


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/c6MAAeSwOI9o76hX/s-l960.webp

However stupid you would look wearing it! :eek:

[Alex_UK]

I couldn't be doing with those - I have a real phobia about touching foam - but I bet they sound very un-headphone like - more like ear speakers.

[Andy831]

I have some Sennheiser cans not sure which DT something or other. Bought them on here recently, they seem comfy enough I tried them with my transistor radio, they sound ok. However and this is the rub, I bought them because I thought I should have a pair even though non of my amps or preamp are actually equipped with a plug to actually play them.

[Tim]

i can't imagine wearing headphones for up to four or more hours!

Well . . . if you've got shit ones, you can't! The trick is, don't buy shit ones that are uncomfortable :D

[Barry]

I just couldn't put up with the sound being in the centre of my head for long. It's a problem with ALL headphones, whether they are open cup or not. It just sounds wrong.

[Barry]

Well . . . if you've got shit ones, you can't! The trick is, don't buy shit ones that are uncomfortable :D

The Koss were the best you could buy at the time (the late '60s, early "70s)

[Barry]

I couldn't be doing with those - I have a real phobia about touching foam - but I bet they sound very un-headphone like - more like ear speakers.

Then you will have a problem with most headphones; the covering of the ear pads always wear away exposing the foam rubber underneath.

For me it is the ear pods that everyone seems to be using now. I wouldn't like to have something stuck in my ears for long.

[Barry]

I have some Sennheiser cans not sure which DT something or other. Bought them on here recently, they seem comfy enough I tried them with my transistor radio, they sound ok. However and this is the rub, I bought them because I thought I should have a pair even though non of my amps or preamp are actually equipped with a plug to actually play them.

When Peter Walker of Quad was asked why his amplifiers didn't have a headphone socket, he replied that in his opinion using headphones were bad for you: they upset the tuning of the inner ear.

[Tim]

Then you will have a problem with most headphones; the covering of the ear pads always wear away exposing the foam rubber underneath.

I've had one pair of my HD650's for about 20 years now, the second pair about 5 - neither covering has worn away on either pair and I use them a lot. It's a plush, very comfortable velvet covering.

Headphones have changed a lot since the 70s Barry ;)

[Pigmy Pony]

I've had one pair of my HD650's for about 20 years now, the second pair about 5 - neither covering has worn away on either pair and I use them a lot. It's a plush, very comfortable velvet covering.

Headphones have changed a lot since the 70s Barry ;)

Yes but my AKGs are only about 12 years old, yet the pretend leather and the foam underneath still fell apart, despite me being elsewhere doing nothing headphone-related.

I think a velvet covering like your HD650s would be the answer. They should make these available as a retrofit, instead of all the stuff on Ebay and Amazon using the same crappy materials.

[Tim]

That's one of many reasons why I bought the HD650's as I wanted something comfortable that would last and be replaceable.

Sennheiser have a fantastic after sales service too, they still repair things if you send them back to Sennheiser - that's rare these days.

[CageyH]

I have a set of Sony WF-1000MX5 for when I am working in the garden with petrol powered tools. They fit nicely under my ear defenders, and the active noise cancelling works well.

For late night listening, I have the following:
HiFiman Sundara - Electrostatics
Sennheiser HD540 Reference II - very neutral sounding
Sennheiser HD650 - Pleasingly coloured.

[Barry]

That's one of many reasons why I bought the HD650's as I wanted something comfortable that would last and be replaceable.

Sennheiser have a fantastic after sales service too, they still repair things if you send them back to Sennheiser - that's rare these days.

Velour covered ear pads makes a lot of sense. Shame most other headphone manufactures don't use it on their products.

[Alex_UK]

Plus the added bonus of not being sweaty - my Sennheiser 580S (I think) are velour and much better that the other Sonys I have with “leatherette” covering.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pete The Cat]

Beyer also use velour for earpads. I've had DT990s for 12 years and they still look like new. In fact although their overall construction is quite plasticky it means they can survive falling and look like they're fresh out of the box.

Some of the fashionably designed modern cans with wooden cups and so on wouldn't look too good after a few days with me. I have a habit of forgetting the cable's there and swiping them off.

[Tim]

I'm with Alex, I have tried a number of different Grado Headphones and they had scratchy foam earpads which feel horrible, they actually become painful to wear after about 20 - 30 minutes. That's before you get to how forward and bright they sound - really not something I could own, despite all the good reviews.

I'm not changing now, which is why I have two pairs of HD650's. End game, I expect them to out live me.

[willbewill]

In the past I've bought quite a few pairs of second hand cans from the likes of ebay, but I've become wary of the possibilities of fakes nowadays.

[Lawrence001]

I have a set of Sony WF-1000MX5 for when I am working in the garden with petrol powered tools. They fit nicely under my ear defenders, and the active noise cancelling works well.

For late night listening, I have the following:
HiFiman Sundara - Electrostatics
Sennheiser HD540 Reference II - very neutral sounding
Sennheiser HD650 - Pleasingly coloured.But how would you hear someone shouting "watch out that big branch is going to fall on you"? I can already imagine what they'd say at the inquest.

[Lawrence001]

I have a pair of Koss Pro 4AA headphones: heavy, uncomfortable, sweaty and "closed-in". They also have a heavy coiled lead which tends to pull down on one side.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/f8gAAeSw8ohqCYfz/s-l1600.webp
Koss Pro 4AA

I also have a pair of Koss ESP-6 electrostatic headphones, which look and feel similar to the Pro 4AA. I don't like them either. There is a problem with one of the transducers, and as Koss as a company are no longer in business, I cannot get them repaired. They did sound better than the Pro 4AA, the only disadvantage being they run off the speaker output of the amplifier.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/st0AAeSw1M5qHVdE/s-l1600.webp
Koss ESP-6

As you can tell I don't like either of them - but then I don't like listening on headphones for any length of time. Possibly the only headphones I could put up with were some cheap Sony pairs which I bought in HMV when they were open. Like those that you have discussed in the previous posts, the ear pads have worn badly. That was one of the few, if only good thing about the Koss phones; the headband and the ear cups have not worn badly at all.If they're the only ones you own I'm not surprised you don't like listening to headphones for long.

[Tim]

If they're the only ones you own I'm not surprised you don't like listening to headphones for long.

Let's be honest, they belong in a museum not on someone's head . . . . sorry Barry.

[Pigmy Pony]

In the past I've bought quite a few pairs of second hand cans from the likes of ebay, but I've become wary of the possibilities of fakes nowadays.

I saw some Sennheisers (don't know the model) brand new in their box for £25 at a car boot recently. I thought yeah, not falling for that one.

[Barry]

If they're the only ones you own I'm not surprised you don't like listening to headphones for long.

No, they are not the only ones I own. If you had read my post you will know I have a couple of inexpensive Sony headphones, for use with my laptop when the occasion arises.

If you also read my subsequent posts you will also learn that I don't like using headphones for serious listening, regardless of how good, or expensive they are.

[Lawrence001]

No, they are not the only ones I own. If you had read my post you will know I have a couple of inexpensive Sony headphones, for use with my laptop when the occasion arises.

If you also read my subsequent posts you will also learn that I don't like using headphones for serious listening, regardless of how good, or expensive they are.I ignored the Sony ones on the basis they sounded cheap and not in contention for serious listening. I too would rather listen to speakers than cheap headphones but I love listening to good quality headphones.

What expensive/well reviewed headphones have you tried?

[Barry]

I ignored the Sony ones on the basis they sounded cheap and not in contention for serious listening. I too would rather listen to speakers than cheap headphones but I love listening to good quality headphones.

What expensive/well reviewed headphones have you tried?

None, because i am unwilling to spend a lot on something I wouldn't use much. But if I were to buy some headphones that have a good reputation and are not very expensive, it would probably be the Beyer Dynamic DT880 (240 Ohm or 600 Ohm version).

[CageyH]

But how would you hear someone shouting "watch out that big branch is going to fall on you"? I can already imagine what they'd say at the inquest.

Not much risk of that when I am on the lawn mower.
When I use the brush cutters, there is nobody with me who could shout. ��

[Pete The Cat]

Above all headphones really help me explore new music. Life's too short for me to sit down in front of my main system and devote 45 minutes a go to check out unfamiliar albums, but I can use the time while I'm cooking, doing the ironing etc to cover a lot of ground with headphones on.

They have the added bonus of acting as a kind of 'do not disturb' sign to the rest of the household :eyebrows:

[Barry]

Above all headphones really help me explore new music. Life's too short for me to sit down in front of my main system and devote 45 minutes a go to check out unfamiliar albums, but I can use the time while I'm cooking, doing the ironing etc to cover a lot of ground with headphones on.

They have the added bonus of acting as a kind of 'do not disturb' sign to the rest of the household :eyebrows:

I assume they are wireless headphones. If it was me, I would play music as normal over my speakers and just open the door to the kitchen, when cooking, or if ironing do it in the same room as the system.

[Pete The Cat]

If it was me, I would play music as normal over my speakers and just open the door to the kitchen, when cooking, or if ironing do it in the same room as the system.

Sounds as if your set-up is different to mine. My kit is in an upstairs room so it's a bit out of the way for that.

The way things have worked out in recent years I've been using headphones more to try new music via streaming and using my hi-fi for records and CDs that I've bought. I'll always prefer my speakers (I like to "feel" music) but without really planning it things have turned out this way and it means I get to check out more unfamiliar music than ever because it can be with me everywhere.

[Lawrence001]

I assume they are wireless headphones. If it was me, I would play music as normal over my speakers and just open the door to the kitchen, when cooking, or if ironing do it in the same room as the system.

[EDIT: I forgot to mention my point about the "in the head" sound Barry doesn't like, which I have added below.]

I just wonder if you're stuck in a catch 22 situation where you don't like headphones as you haven't got good modern ones and you won't buy good modern ones as you don't use headphones.

The problem with the ones you've got is that they have old drivers which don't sound as good as modern ones, they are heavy and uncomfortable and quite claustrophobic being closed back. The ones I've tried from that period that look like those also have a hollow echoey sound due to the enclosed pods they used back then.

These issues have been solved with a lot of R&D over the years to wit:

Modern drivers are much better and can match or better good speakers for sound quality and resolution (if you like the latter, or there are plenty of different sound signatures if you don't).

Modern ones are much lighter (except some planar magnetic models) and more comfortable. The comfort has been improved by giving more movement in the headbands and cup rotation, and through the use of new materials like memory foam and velour in the cups. Newer, lighter materials are also used in the headband and cups while still retaining durability (in most).

The closed in/claustrophobic feel has been solved by introducing open backed headphones. These can leak sound but if that's an issue there are semi-open types that are barely audible to others but still have no feeling of pressure or isolation from the outside (such as the DT880 you referred to).

The hollow echoey sound of closed back headphones has been removed through analysis of wave propagation in the cups, changing the design and adding damping materials. Some also use wood as a cup material to improve damping and introduce a pleasant sound signature (but not always successful and not to everyone's liking).

Lastly the "in the head" sound you don't like has at least partly been solved by the open backed headphones having a wider soundstage and the introduction of cross feed implementations in both hardware (headphone amps) and software. Cross feed mixes the left and right channels up slightly to mimic the way the left and right channels reach the other ear with a slight delay when listening to speakers (or actual music performances!). When we'll implemented it can really work.

Meier Audio and SPL have made amps that have a cross feed option, also some dacs like RME and DSP/player software on laptops and phones have it too.

Personally I don't find it a big issue, and as I don't like the amps I mentioned above as much as others, I don't use them, but if the "in the head" issue is bigger for you the trade off may work in their favour. (Or indeed you may have a different taste in sound and prefer them even without the cross feed).

I strongly suggest you try something better before you completely dismiss the option of headphone listening Barry. If you don't like using velour pads that others have used, there are plenty of nearly new pairs out there that people have bought and immediately decided they weren't to their taste. I've bought many of my headphones that way at around 50% of the typical retail price, and there's little chance of losing money.

The DT880s you mention sounds very nice (I have 2 pairs) but they are produced to a price point and are let down by 2 issues (one solvable and one not easily). They are very inefficient and require a powerful headphone amp (there are regularly THX AAA chip based ones on eBay at reasonable prices) or one designed for high impedance headphones, such as the Rega Ear (one of my favourite sounding amps and amazing value at around £70-£80).

Their one main issue though is comfort, I find the pad stuffing too hard so they press on the head a little and they are just a bit too small for my big lugs.

If you would like to try a nice pair I'd be happy to discuss your priorities in a pair and send you one to try.

[Barry]

Sounds as if your set-up is different to mine. My kit is in an upstairs room so it's a bit out of the way for that.

The way things have worked out in recent years I've been using headphones more to try new music via streaming and using my hi-fi for records and CDs that I've bought. I'll always prefer my speakers (I like to "feel" music) but without really planning it things have turned out this way and it means I get to check out more unfamiliar music than ever because it can be with me everywhere.

Yes, but do you have a portable CD player: how is the source connected to the phones?

[Pete The Cat]

I just wonder...

If only I'd remembered to choose the option to allow 'likes' when I started this thread I could have hit the 'like' button here.

Anyway I 'liked' your post a lot :yay:

I've been amazed by how much better headphones are these days and how economical they are to have a go.

[Pete The Cat]

Yes, but do you have a portable CD player: how is the source connected to the phones?

If I'm working, which is usually for hours at a stretch, I use them wired into an amp (Denon PMA350SE) so that I can play files or stream from the PC. If I'm sitting in the garden or I'm on a train I use them wired into laptop/tablet/phone.

If I'm doing stuff requiring manual dexterity I use them wireless into laptop/tablet/phone - the beauty of my AKG and Sennheiser bluetooth headphones is that both can be used either wireless or wired.

[Tim]

I've been amazed by how much better headphones are these days and how economical they are to have a go.

I love mine, they are so comfortable I almost don't know they're on. I mostly use them for watching films, so I crank the volume up to hear what people are saying - modern film dialogue can be irritatingly muffled at times. I have a projector and 120" screen, so with the headphones on and the lights off, it's quite an immersive experience.

[Pete The Cat]

I love mine, they are so comfortable I almost don't know they're on. I mostly use them for watching films, so I crank the volume up to hear what people are saying - modern film dialogue can be irritatingly muffled at times.

I know what you mean by modern films. They're mixed so that background noise is realistic but this means it conflicts with the dialogue.

Although subtitles are a common option, I dislike it when they can't differentiate words that are part of the dialogue from words that are on the soundtrack, the latter of which are often completely irrelevant to a scene. For example, we recently watched a decent BBC drama called 'The Gold', about the aftermath of Brinks-Mat. They had obviously decided to use a playlist of alternative '80s favourites as the soundtrack but the words of the songs would keep intruding into the dialogue in a way that was jarring. I think that one of the main streaming networks now has subtitle software that excludes lyrics, which is a breakthrough.

[Lawrence001]

If only I'd remembered to choose the option to allow 'likes' when I started this thread I could have hit the 'like' button here.

Anyway I 'liked' your post a lot :yay:

I've been amazed by how much better headphones are these days and how economical they are to have a go.Thanks for the feedback Pete always nice to know I've posted something good :)

I forgot to mention cross feed as I wrote my mini essay so I've gone back to edit it.

[Tim]

I know what you mean by modern films. They're mixed so that background noise is realistic but this means it conflicts with the dialogue.

Yup, Christopher Nolan being one of the worst offenders.