"Inside out" record - new one on me!

[Pigmy Pony]

I'm about to order this, Nick Mason's Saucerful of Secrets doing "Echoes Live":

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51lVWlVxVWL._AC_SX425_.jpg

Now when I looked at reviews for this (mostly positive) I saw mention of it set up so you put the arm at the end of the side, and it plays outwards, ending at the "beginning"... Anyone here come across this? Is it just a gimmick? Or an early April Fools joke?


https://youtu.be/5Afikv6k1-c

[Barry]

It's new to me as well. It is of course a way of getting around a weakness of vinyl records - that of 'end of side' distortion, exacerbated by large modulation of the record groove.

There can't be many pieces of music for which this applies, so I would expect such LPs to be of limited edition. They are presumably more difficult to cut, requiring the radial cutter head to move in the opposite direction to normal (Since the radial velocity can be varied in real time as the record is cut, reversing the direction might be easily achieved, but I don't really know for certain). Given the above, I would expect these special records to be relatively expensive.

I don't think it is a gimmick - the only gimmick is the title "oreloB".

[Lawrence001]

Surely you're just swapping end of side distortion for start of side distortion?

I don't think of the issue as one of modulation (although perhaps that is just a way of describing how I think of it differently). I think of the problem being that the needle travels over a smaller distance near the end and so all the information has to be packed into a shorter groove thus increasing distortion.

If some albums get louder towards the end, like prog rock albums or symphonies building up to a crescendo, then it does make sense to play "backwards" (ie. from the inside out) as the quieter beginning needs less depth and so can work at a slower speed (of the needle travelling through the groove).

[Pigmy Pony]

The Youtube video I linked to makes mention of some producers having a tendency to start the LP side with the 'louder' denser tracks and finishing with simpler quieter tracks to mitigate this issue.

I thought the problem was all to do with conventional pivot arms replaying discs which were cut by a linear tracking lathe (well not the actual vinyl, but the stamper). If I'm mistaken I would welcome one of you guys putting me straight :)

When the album arrives I'll report whether it is indeed 'inside out', though there's no way to tell if it brings improvements. I'd need a normally cut disc for comparison. As to cost, it's 28 quid, which is about normal these days.

[Barry]

"End of side distortion" is a portmanteau term for both horizontal tracking error, along with the slower linear groove velocity which will increase the transverse velocity of the inner modulated grooves compared to an identical (in the sense of having the same musical information) groove at the outer disc radius.

The only way to improve end of side distortion is to set up the tonearm according to the Sevenson prescription (i.e. zero horizontal tracking error at the innermost groove radius), and cutting the record for playback at 45 rpm, which would increase the groove wavelength for any given frequency. The latter will reduce the transverse modulation velocity of the groove. This will of course reduce the playing time per side to around 13 - 14 minutes.

There is really no such thing as "start of side distortion", unless you mean the horizontal tracking error of the arm, which will occur regardless of the arm setup prescription.

The best solution is to buy a recording of Ravel's Bolero on CD, which always track "inside out". :)

[Lawrence001]

I presume CD speed varies between the inside and outside of the disc so it can read the same number of bits per second. Maybe someone could devise a new system for records that starts at 33 and slowly builds up to whatever speed is required to play the same linear groove speed at any position on the record.

Of course this would require some complex technology and reading of the position of the stylus on the record in real time via arm angle, tracking position or whatever. I doubt a belt drive would work so well so it would probably need a direct drive for that to work well.

Anyone technical interested in patenting this idea with me and developing it?

[Pigmy Pony]

I presume CD speed varies between the inside and outside of the disc so it can read the same number of bits per second. Maybe someone could devise a new system for records that starts at 33 and slowly builds up to whatever speed is required to play the same linear groove speed at any position on the record.

Of course this would require some complex technology and reading of the position of the stylus on the record in real time via arm angle, tracking position or whatever. I doubt a belt drive would work so well so it would probably need a direct drive for that to work well.

Anyone technical interested in patenting this idea with me and developing it?

One thing to develop it, quite another to get record manufacturers to adopt it, when they are already unable or unwilling to turn out discs free from pops and crackles from day one. I have 50 year-old records that play better than some of the crap released last week.

And while I'm at it, what are the sonic advantages of 'heavyweight' vinyl? If they made them 25% thinner as they were in yesteryear, they could use the money saved to properly service the machines and train up folk so they know and care about what they're doing. Mini rant over.

[Macca]

I thought the problem was all to do with conventional pivot arms replaying discs which were cut by a linear tracking lathe (well not the actual vinyl, but the stamper). If I'm mistaken I would welcome one of you guys putting me straight :)
.

That's part of the problem which is why IMV all expensive decks should use a linear tracking tonearm, but few actually do.

[Pigmy Pony]

Having seen and heard Ali Tait's SL7, it doesn't even need to be that expensive. 'Tis a thing of beauty that SL7, I want one :)

[Macca]

Having seen and heard Ali Tait's SL7, it doesn't even need to be that expensive. 'Tis a thing of beauty that SL7, I want one :)

It's good but this is the one you really want:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1hkuDBUgT8

[Pete The Cat]

I have an inside out 12" single, Megadeth 'Sweating Bullets' (not a fan, got it because of the superb ten minute Trent Reznor remix of 'Symphony Of Destruction' on the B side). It's from 1993 so the concept is quite old.

[Pigmy Pony]

I have an inside out 12" single, Megadeth 'Sweating Bullets' (not a fan, got it because of the superb ten minute Trent Reznor remix of 'Symphony Of Destruction' on the B side). It's from 1993 so the concept is quite old.

But did you notice any advantage sonically? Without a 'normal' pressing for comparison we could never know. I've read that it may help with classical recordings which normally start quiet and build up towards the end, but apart from that I still think it's a gimmick.

I'd expect with your Megadeth record, it starts loud and stays that way :D

[Pigmy Pony]

It's good but this is the one you really want:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1hkuDBUgT8

Now that does look proper. And a proper price too, no doubt. Would it be good enough to bring you back into the vinyl fold? :)

[Macca]

Now that does look proper. And a proper price too, no doubt. Would it be good enough to bring you back into the vinyl fold? :)

It's what I'd get if I was going back in any serious way. One sold this summer for just over a grand but they are rare in the UK. Plus you might need to factor in the cost of getting it checked and any issues fixed. Still bargain as it's technically better than almost any other deck at any price.

[Pigmy Pony]

Quite a bit cheaper than I expected. But as you say it could potentially need attention. And I bet that won't be simple. Or cheap.

[Barry]

Virtually all parallel tracking arms are mechanically driven across the record from the outer edge groove to the innermost groove and the run-out groove. That is why in the video the linear tracking turntable skips when trying to play the 'inside out' record.

There are a few 'air bearing' linear tracking arms that are simply pushed across the record by the groove itself, so in principle they could be used to play these backwards records, but they have problems of their own.

It amazes me that vinyl playback sounds as good as it does, given all the mechanical limitations of cutting, pressing and playback of a record. The only explanation is that the distortions are predominantly second harmonic, which are more acceptable to the human ear.

[Pigmy Pony]

Virtually all parallel tracking arms are mechanically driven across the record from the outer edge groove to the innermost groove and the run-out groove. That is why in the video the linear tracking turntable skips when trying to play the 'inside out' record.

There are a few 'air bearing' linear tracking arms that are simply pushed across the record by the groove itself, so in principle they could be used to play these backwards records, but they have problems of their own.

It amazes me that vinyl playback sounds as good as it does, given all the mechanical limitations of cutting, pressing and playback of a record. The only explanation is that the distortions are predominantly second harmonic, which are more acceptable to the human ear.

I have wondered about that - I mean, the cutting lathe leads, which is fine, it does what it does. But the linear tracking arm has to follow that faithfully, and while I can see the merit of this type of arm in eliminating tracking error, it looks like there are other potential problems with this.

I'm guessing that because the stylus is being 'pushed' along rather than simply tracing the groove, there would have to be some very clever engineering involved. Otherwise you're eliminating one problem but introducing another.

I'm betting the 'air bearing' arms you mention don't come cheap.

[Macca]

I have wondered about that - I mean, the cutting lathe leads, which is fine, it does what it does. But the linear tracking arm has to follow that faithfully, and while I can see the merit of this type of arm in eliminating tracking error, it looks like there are other potential problems with this.

I'm guessing that because the stylus is being 'pushed' along rather than simply tracing the groove, there would have to be some very clever engineering involved. Otherwise you're eliminating one problem but introducing another.

I'm betting the 'air bearing' arms you mention don't come cheap.

Doing it properly does require some serious engineering which is why most very expensive decks don't have it and the makers of them have to pretend it 'causes more problems than it solves.'

Plus Technics in the 1970s and 1980s had economies of scale that modern TT manufacturers just don't even remotely have.

Terminator air bearing linear tracking arm is around a grand https://www.musicfromvinyl.shop/

[Barry]

Air bearing linear tracking arms require an airpump which generate acoustic noise of its own. They also need a lengthy loop of thin, flexible and unshielded wires from the moving arm/cartridge to the static arm base.

Furthermore the cartridge carrying part of all linear tracking arm has to short, so as to prevent 'yawing', which in turn makes it susceptible to errors when tracking warped records, namely that of 'scrub flutter'.

So linear tracking arms are not the panacea they claim to be.

[Macca]

Air bearing linear tracking arms require an airpump which generate acoustic noise of its own. They also need a lengthy loop of thin, flexible and unshielded wires from the moving arm/cartridge to the static arm base.

Furthermore the cartridge carrying part of all linear tracking arm has to short, so as to prevent 'yawing', which in turn makes it susceptible to errors when tracking warped records, namely that of 'scrub flutter'.

So linear tracking arms are not the panacea they claim to be.

I don't think anyone claims linear tracking is a panacea for all vinyl's problems (that's CD :D) but it is better in principle, and in practice when properly implemented.

[Barry]

Is it better in principle? The effective mass is different for horizontal motion (high), compared to that for vertical motion (low), so there will be two different arm/cartridge resonant frequencies, which may or may not be a problem.

I think the improvement wrought by linear trackers come at the expense of simplicity. Pivoted tonearms IMO make the best of a bad job. But I would be interested if anyone has measured the reduction in tracking error distortion linear trackers ought to achieve and compared it with that of pivoted arms.

[Macca]

Is it better in principle? The effective mass is different for horizontal motion (high), compared to that for vertical motion (low), so there will be two different arm/cartridge resonant frequencies, which may or may not be a problem.

I think the improvement wrought by linear trackers come at the expense of simplicity. Pivoted tonearms IMO make the best of a bad job. But I would be interested if anyone has measured the reduction in tracking error distortion linear trackers ought to achieve and compared it with that of pivoted arms.

According to this you're looking at a worst case of 0.6% THD versus zero percent with a linear tracker:

https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2023/07/20/tonearm-tracking-error-and-distortion/

[Pete The Cat]

apart from that I still think it's a gimmick.

I have no way of knowing scientifically; logic says it's the same overall, merely reversed. So yup, a gimmick.

[mikeyb]

Need to be quick to catch the arm at the end of the side with no label to bump against ;)

[Barry]

According to this you're looking at a worst case of 0.6% THD versus zero percent with a linear tracker:

https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2023/07/20/tonearm-tracking-error-and-distortion/

Those are calculated values of which I'm quite aware. (I wrote a lengthy and comprehensive article on tonearm alignment for The Knowledge.) I would interested in measured values for both types of arm: linear trackers are not infinitely stiff, in fact those that are mechanically driven will deviate from true tangential tracking as it moves across the record. Admittedly this will be a small but finite angular correction.

[Macca]

Those are calculated values of which I'm quite aware..

Appreciate that but if there are any actual measurements on line they're buried pretty deep. The calculations at least give a ballpark as to the improvement linear tracking offers, which is significant enough to matter, at least for 'high end' replay.

This is why it's amusing to see decks costing even a hundred grand - or more - that don't employ it.

[Pigmy Pony]

Need to be quick to catch the arm at the end of the side with no label to bump against ;)

Apparently the "end" (the outer edge of the disc) has a locked groove (similar to what stops your stylus from crashing into the label on conventional vinyl).

[Barry]

On a conventional record there is a silent lead-in groove at the start (outer edge) of the record. When the master is cut on the record lathe the groove has a starting end. But when vinyl copies are pressed this 'start' lies outside the outer radius, so the groove literally runs in from the edge.
However the outer edge is a little thicker than the rest of the LP, there is an inward slope so the stylus slides down and drops into the silent run-in groove.

What always surprises me is that this supposedly silent lead-in groove is always noisy to some extent until about a few seconds before the music starts. If the start is loud you can hear a quiet pre-echo of the start in the lead-in groove.

[Pigmy Pony]

I used to hear that pre echo a lot when I was younger. But not recently, probably my failing hearing. After all my talk about the Nick Mason record, I forgot to order it :doh: I'll do it tomorrow.