Power cables - Conundrum

[Jimbo]

Anyone found or experienced which piece of kit benefits most from a high quality Power cable?

I am thinking maybe preamp then source component and then Power amp. This is just a hunch and I may be wrong but would be interested to hear if folk have had enlightening experiences with Power cables?

Non cable believers need not apply! :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I'm not a cable believer but I think that used properly and within reason they make a difference. I'm hopefully immune to some of the stupid claims that companies make for some of these cables, especially ones that sell for silly money. My take is quite simple. I've always used decent well shielded cable and I've not taken too much notice of copper purity. I do know that unshielded cables can and do pick up various types of inteference. I've experienced radio stations, noise from LED lights and various appliances in my house. Decent and proper earthing alongside decent cables have put an end to any of this getting into my systems speakers and to my ears. I think it IS important that you have a decent plug, a decent shielded cable and a decent IEC. I also think it's equally important that you have quiet transformers, decent linear power supplies and a decent clean supply of electricity. I also think that a steady voltage with little to know distortion of the sine wave is equally as important. So, for me, cables to a limited extent are important but more importantly it's what those cables conduct which is even more important. :)

PS At one stage my entire system used to be powered with solid silver conductors in the power cables! These conductors are now used as speaker cables.

[Jimbo]

Anyone found or experienced which piece of kit benefits most from a high quality Power cable?

I am thinking maybe preamp then source component and then Power amp. This is just a hunch and I may be wrong but would be interested to hear if folk have had enlightening experiences with Power cables?

Non cable believers need not apply! :)

Thanks Barry:thumbsup:

[Gazjam]

All things being equal,
I’d go Preamp, Source then power amp m’self

[Barry]

All things being equal,
I’d go Preamp, Source then power amp m’self

I agree.

I should like to add that I also agree with Andrew in that most of the noise on the mains is caused by noisy switched power items used in your house, or by those employed in a neighbouring house that shares the same phase as you. The first you can do something about, the second d is more difficult.

The only mains cable I made was for a preamp used as a phono-stage, and it too used screened three core cable, with the screen and earth connected together at the plug.

[Jimbo]

Thanks gentlemen, I will be trying the upgraded cable on the preamp which is probably going to benefit the most especially as it is all valve containing Phono stage, (valve), regulation stage ( valve), Linestage ( valve) and voltage regulation (valve).


I have noticed in the past the preamp is sensitive to any noise both RFI/ EMI especially the phono stage which is very sensitive. Any light or indeed anything else plugged into the same ring main seems to cause some hum/buzzing in the preamp albeit only when gain is fairly high.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Thanks gentlemen, I will be trying the upgraded cable on the preamp which is probably going to benefit the most especially as it is all valve containing Phono stage, (valve), regulation stage ( valve), Linestage ( valve) and voltage regulation (valve).


I have noticed in the past the preamp is sensitive to any noise both RFI/ EMI especially the phono stage which is very sensitive. Any light or indeed anything else plugged into the same ring main seems to cause some hum/buzzing in the preamp albeit only when gain is fairly high.

Hmmm, sounds like something I once had. You could hear if specific appliances or lights were turned on through the speakers, my fridge being one and some LED lights in the en-suite being the other. This has now been cured by using my power regenerator. I now get nothing through the speakers apart from a small amount of transformer hum through the speakers from the power-amp. I have long suspected the power-amp being a weak link in the chain. The Croft-pre amp and my paradise phonostage are completely silent.

[Barry]

Interesting - my audio system has its own dedicated ring main fed by a completely separate CU. There is however one reading light plugged into this ring main. The lamp is fitted with a high efficiency bulb, which I assume uses a switched-mode supply. The thing is, I can hear absolutely no difference in sound quality regardless of whether the light is on or off.

I think I must be lucky regarding audio interference with my gear - the only incident occurred years ago when whilst playing a record, a taxi which was parked not far from the house sent a message over his radio which broke through into the music. A couple of ferrite beads fitted over the phono wires inside the preamp (a Sugden C51) cured that.

[Gazjam]

All of the above is why I invested in balanced mains and balanced connections, it cancels the noise you get on the mains.
One and done.

In all my audio travels going balanced was the biggest positive step I made, more so than any gear I’ve bought, aside maybe the recent Holo Audio stuff.

Clean power is everything.

[Barry]

Recording studios do not use balanced mains power supplies. What they do use is balance-line audio connections between equipment, which is what I also use.

[Gazjam]

David Gilmour’s Astoria studio does, as does Abbey Road and many others.
Sorry Barry,
But that’s incorrect.

But hey :) doesn’t matter.

Your right though, Balanced connections is absolutely the way to go.

[Jimbo]

All of the above is why I invested in balanced mains and balanced connections, it cancels the noise you get on the mains.
One and done.

In all my audio travels going balanced was the biggest positive step I made, more so than any gear I’ve bought, aside maybe the recent Holo Audio stuff.

Clean power is everything.

I think I will be working my way towards this solution myself fairly soon.

[Barry]

David Gilmour’s Astoria studio does, as does Abbey Road and many others.
Sorry Barry,
But that’s incorrect.

But hey :) doesn’t matter.

Your right though, Balanced connections is absolutely the way to go.

Oops! Sorry you are quite right, I should have checked the facts before being so dogmatic. My apologies, it's a fault of mine which gets worse the older I get. :(

But I am still puzzled as to why balanced mains supplies are beneficial with modern audio equipment. What your balanced mains transformer is, is a 1:1 turns ratio transformer with a centre tapped secondary winding that is attached to the mains earth. So each arm of the output secondary is +/_ 120V with respect to the earth, and any transformed noise is also halved and each half is in the opposite sense, so will cancel. Yet what your balanced mains transformer is doing outside of the gear it is powering is exactly the same as what is being done inside the item of audio equipment which uses split polarity voltage rails.

Must be missing something somewhere here; except to speculate that since recording studios often work around the clock, maybe they use balanced mains power supplies so that the cleaner does not pollute the mains with their vacuum cleaner.

[Jimbo]

I thought studies used balanced cables do they could use longer runs and also avoid noise/ interference from equipment etc. Also true I think for bands performing live?

[Barry]

I thought studies used balanced cables so they could use longer runs and also avoid noise/ interference from equipment etc. Also true I think for bands performing live?

It's a similar principle: external noise picked up by the shield of a balanced line cable is capacitively coupled to the two signal wires, but in opposite sense so it cancels.

[Wakefield Turntables]

[QUOTE=Barry;1399587
Must be missing something somewhere here; except to speculate that since recording studios often work around the clock, maybe they use balanced mains power supplies so that the cleaner does not pollute the mains with their vacuum cleaner.[/QUOTE]

Recording studios also use a Synch Master clock to make sure that all components are talking to each other at the same time. I wonder if the "hum" itself is the thing which causes problems with audio components???? A wild and very uneducated suggestion but it might spark some debate ;).

[Macca]

Studios use balanced power to prevent hum and buzz from ground loops which are pretty much inevitable if you have dozens or sometimes hundreds of devices connected.

What's required for recording and what's required for playback at home are often not the same.

[Barry]

Decca studios have never used balanced power supplies, yet they managed to provide recordings to an impeccable level of quality, balanced mains power supplies are not sine qua non when it come to audio quality, though it can help.

I have tried to find out whether other studios used by some of the major record labels, such as Philips and DGG, used balanced mains supplies, but it is not clear one way or another. However the use of balanced line audio connections should eliminate the problem of ground loops.

[Wakefield Turntables]

What's required for recording and what's required for playback at home are often not the same.

True, but you always get someone who know's better!! Plenty of Audiobullshitters out in the wilds.


Decca studios have never used balanced power supplies, yet they managed to provide recordings to an impeccable level of quality, balanced mains power supplies are not sine qua non when it come to audio quality, though it can help.


Yes, some of the early DECCA SXL's are some of the best recordings that I have heard.

[Gazjam]

Speaking for my own system and ears…
I always recommend with Hifi stuff, actually hearing these things for yourself before dismissing it? :)

And speaking from my own experience, balanced mains for the home works really well, or (DUH) I wouldn’t be using it.
I know the theory behind it and it makes engineering sense why it would improve things, but only thing that matters is the sound that hits my ears and other folks who’ve been to mine and heard it for themselves.

It reduces electrical noise on the line, not in a “magic fairy dust” way, but with established electrical theory (common mode rejection) which is why Studio’s use it.
And us Audio folks have already established here cleaner power improves sound in a domestic Hifi system, and Balanced mains cleans mush off the electrical supply so…

Not a one size fits all solution of course, everyone’s setup is different.

It improves the juice which powers your Hifi and makes it sound better.
Thats why Us folks use everything from audiophile power supplies, fuses, cables, dedicated Comsumer Units, earth rods and yes, balanced mains and a million other modifications to the power supply to improve the sound.

Linear psu vs switchmode, better chokes, better regulation, toroidal transformers, beefy output stages, uber high end gear with separate power supply chassis’ that get delivered on a pallet…

or maybe its all nonsense, in which case we all need to have a word with ourselves.

Buy hey, you do you.
:)

[Jimbo]

Well last night I established with a thorough listening session the new power cable I have benefitted the DAC way more than the preamp. Maybe this makes sense as DAC is at beginning of chain and as we all know digital equipment is extremely sensitive to noise on the mains or indeed anywhere else. It was not even close and to be honest the improvement is jaw dropping.


The sound improved in these key areas:

1. Soundstage - way more 3D and placement of stuff in the soundstage a lot more specific. Depth was extraordinary. Everything moved back behind the speakers a few feet. I have only heard this done before in my system with a very expensive power conditioner - Chord PowerAray pro (£6000)!


2. Detail and clarity improved but significantly Bass was much more powerful and deep.

3. Music took on a much more connected and beguiling aspect.

4. Natural aspect to the sound improved.

I would never have thought a cable could make this much difference and I am still quite shocked. My experience with cables has always been a bit meh! Yes I have preferred one cable over another etc and heard a small improvement but this was HUGE.

Just goes to show there are still plenty of things to discover in audio with your own system and I am a huge sceptic and always need to try it and hear for myself but this power cable improvement simply took me by complete surprise.

[Mr. C]

Air Sudios use fully balanced mains supplies, Tim Vinelock (engineering manager) installed them a few years ago before he went to pasturers newer

Balanced power doesn't not remove all of the noise that this sat on the incoming mains supply, to indentify this I would suggest a mains power analyser will demonstrate this quite succinctly, every home has different issue due to local, appliances in the home, close to large power drain sites, large housing developments, office blocks and industrial areas, distance from the step down transformer etc.

We design power distribution networks for many industries and each oe has very specific requirements and ther amount and types of noise that appear inside the home are more than youy would expect imho

[Gazjam]

Studios use balanced power to prevent hum and buzz from ground loops which are pretty much inevitable if you have dozens or sometimes hundreds of devices connected.

What's required for recording and what's required for playback at home are often not the same.

Agree,
is often the case.

Ultra revealing Studio monitor speakers for the home - nope.
If your favourite music sounds awful through a transparent window, what’s the point you won’t enjoy your tunes.


Mega high sampling and bitrate digital music files - nope.
Extra resolution and headroom great for mastering and down mixing, but unnecessary for home audio, and can actually add its own problems*

* There is a case for 24/96 PCM and DSD at home, but only if all things equal.
HQ Player upsampling is as imo good as it gets for home audio - if it floats your boat.

Had a play with it and it was GOOD, but I still preferred NOS playback for everything except some “out there” Audiophile recordings.
For the music you generally listen to, well mastered/recorded 16/44 is terrific, and “enough” I’d say?
Hires can sound better, sure, but up to a point and I reckon most non obsessive types don’t really think it matters.

[Gazjam]

Air Sudios use fully balanced mains supplies, Tim Vinelock (engineering manager) installed them a few years ago before he went to pasturers newer

Balanced power doesn;'t not remove all of the noise that this sat on the incoming mains supply, to indentify this I would suggest a mains power analyser will demonstrate this quite succinctly, every home has different issue due to local, appliances in the home, close to large power drain sites, large housing developments, office blocks and industrial areas, distance from the step down transformer etc.

WE design power distribution networks for many industries and each oe has very specifi requirements

Yup,
as always there’s lots of factors and you just have to try stuff out in your own scenario to really know for sure.

Part of the fun of the hobby really :)

[Ali Tait]

Speaking for my own system and ears…
I always recommend with Hifi stuff, actually hearing these things for yourself before dismissing it? :)

And speaking from my own experience, balanced mains for the home works really well, or (DUH) I wouldn’t be using it.
I know the theory behind it and it makes engineering sense why it would improve things, but only thing that matters is the sound that hits my ears and other folks who’ve been to mine and heard it for themselves.

It reduces electrical noise on the line, not in a “magic fairy dust” way, but with established electrical theory (common mode rejection) which is why Studio’s use it.
And us Audio folks have already established here cleaner power improves sound in a domestic Hifi system, and Balanced mains cleans mush off the electrical supply so…

Not a one size fits all solution of course, everyone’s setup is different.

It improves the juice which powers your Hifi and makes it sound better.
Thats why Us folks use everything from audiophile power supplies, fuses, cables, dedicated Comsumer Units, earth rods and yes, balanced mains and a million other modifications to the power supply to improve the sound.

Linear psu vs switchmode, better chokes, better regulation, toroidal transformers, beefy output stages, uber high end gear with separate power supply chassis’ that get delivered on a pallet…

or maybe its all nonsense, in which case we all need to have a word with ourselves.

Buy hey, you do you.
:)

Trying my BPS at your place is the biggest improvement I've heard it make anywhere mate, I remember the way we just looked at each other in amazement. Whatever the issue is with your mains, the balanced supply certainly solved it.

[Macca]

Hires can sound better, sure, but up to a point and I reckon most non obsessive types don’t really think it matters.

I've done the blind test, so I know I can't hear any difference. :) I lost interest after that.

Although sometimes if you want a particular mastering it's only on some hi res format.

Like 'Beggars Banquet' on SACD - aside from being a very good remastering, it runs at the correct speed unlike all the previous analogue and digital versions.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Well last night I established with a thorough listening session the new power cable I have benefitted the DAC way more than the preamp. Maybe this makes sense as DAC is at beginning of chain and as we all know digital equipment is extremely sensitive to noise on the mains or indeed anywhere else. It was not even close and to be honest the improvement is jaw dropping.


The sound improved in these key areas:

1. Soundstage - way more 3D and placement of stuff in the soundstage a lot more specific. Depth was extraordinary. Everything moved back behind the speakers a few feet. I have only heard this done before in my system with a very expensive power conditioner - Chord PowerAray pro (£6000)!


2. Detail and clarity improved but significantly Bass was much more powerful and deep.

3. Music took on a much more connected and beguiling aspect.

4. Natural aspect to the sound improved.

I would never have thought a cable could make this much difference and I am still quite shocked. My experience with cables has always been a bit meh! Yes I have preferred one cable over another etc and heard a small improvement but this was HUGE.

Just goes to show there are still plenty of things to discover in audio with your own system and I am a huge sceptic and always need to try it and hear for myself but this power cable improvement simply took me by complete surprise.

Glad you got a positive outcome, watched your video as well!

[Jimbo]

Glad you got a positive outcome, watched your video as well!

That was for a bit of Christmas fun:) Don’t think a video on a cable would go down too well!:lol:

[Gazjam]

Fair.
Though it’s murky waters when you throw Mastering into the conversation too?

I’ve heard “remastered” stuff sounding worse, and revisited Master Tapes (done with care and a great Mastering Engineer’s touch - Kevin Gray’s Blade Runner comes to mind?) sound wonderful.

My “GOAT’ though is Mike Matessino’s work on the rediscovered 1st Gen Master Tape vault discovery of John William’s Superman soundtrack, my favourite piece of Film Music…

But Hires is better!!
https://theartofsound.net/forum/blob:https://theartofsound.net/ec63453e-6651-46ef-8cf7-9e6cb5c1d8ce
https://imgur.com/gallery/thor-is-though-sWsCp1p

https://i.imgflip.com/ag4zxc.jpg
https://imgflip.com/i/ag4zxc

Is it though?



I've done the blind test, so I know I can't hear any difference. :) I lost interest after that.

Although sometimes if you want a particular mastering it's only on some hi res format.

Like 'Beggars Banquet' on SACD - aside from being a very good remastering, it runs at the correct speed unlike all the previous analogue and digital versions.

[Rush2112]

Well can't agree on "I cant here any difference", however, the law of diminishing returns sets in very early ! I have cables from PS Audio, Atlas, Silver Sounds and Kimber but the star of them all, is the less than £30 one from ebay, which has lowered the noise floor on my phono stage to reveal detail masked before. Pound for pound this is a bargain of the Century!

https://ebay.us/m/otE952


Sent from my SM-A356B using Tapatalk

[Gazjam]

Yikes,
So it seems Cables CAN make a difference :eek:

As you say price isn’t always an indicator of best sound quality.
I found that too.
The XLR interconnects I use in my system beat out directly A-B compared silly priced top end stuff I had on loan from my Dealer, and I was willing to spend the moolah if it was better?
My preferred Studio XLRs were were under £150 for 2m before importing them from the States.
Safe to say my Dealer who was counting pound signs and saw some profit that month was disappointed :D

At the time I wanted “one and done” cost be damned, but as it turns out it’s not always the expensive stuff that gets you there.
That experience opened my eyes a bit.

As always you have to make your own mind up on hearing stuff in your own system, and not rely on what you read online.

But hey, that’s part of the fun of it all, right?


Well can't agree on "I cant here any difference", however, the law of diminishing returns sets in very early ! I have cables from PS Audio, Atlas, Silver Sounds and Kimber but the star of them all, is the less than £30 one from ebay, which has lowered the noise floor on my phono stage to reveal detail masked before. Pound for pound this is a bargain of the Century!

https://ebay.us/m/otE952


Sent from my SM-A356B using Tapatalk

[Wakefield Turntables]

That was for a bit of Christmas fun:) Don’t think a video on a cable would go down too well!:lol:


Hey, who cares, remember it's your ramblings! I dare you, no, I double dare you to produce a cable video, go on, you know you want to! :eek:

[Barry]

I make up all my audio cables, using Neutrik XLR connectors and cable from either Amphenol; Belden; EMT; Huber & Suhner; Gotham; Klotz; Mogami; Neumann; Sommer, or Van Damme cable. Can't say I can hear any difference between the different cables, but prefer some over others because they are more flexible.

All the cables are directional because they have a male connector at one end and a female connector at the other. ( :lol: )

[Jimbo]

Hey, who cares, remember it's your ramblings! I dare you, no, I double dare you to produce a cable video, go on, you know you want to! :eek:

Youtube videos on cables are very rare - I wonder why!!! Could it be it is a slightly controversial subject?:)

[Macca]

Searching Youtube under 'audio cables' brings up dozens of them. There's probably thousands.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=audio+cables

[Jimbo]

Searching Youtube under 'audio cables' brings up dozens of them. There's probably thousands.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=audio+cables

Not many on power cables.

[Macca]

Not many on power cables.

Loads, just keep on scrolling down. I didn't get to the end.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=audio+power+cable

[Gazjam]

There’s a TON of them James,
you’d be in great Company :D

https://media1.tenor.com/m/N9bWDwKg6vIAAAAd/bullish-bullish-af.gif

[Barry]

One of our Members here wrote a post describing a power cable he had made. Sadly it is not available to view as the author, for reasons best known to himself, deleted all the images. (Why?)

All I can tell you is the cable used was Lapp Olflex (a three core cable with an overall screen), the BS 1363 plug was an MK silver-plated 'Toughplug' (fitted with a silver-plated Bussman fuse) and the IEC line socket was by Martin Kaiser.

So a new post/video would be most welcome!

[Jimbo]

There’s a TON of them James,
you’d be in great Company :D

https://media1.tenor.com/m/N9bWDwKg6vIAAAAd/bullish-bullish-af.gif

:doh:

[Gazjam]

One of our Members here wrote a post describing a power cable he had made. Sadly it is not available to view as the author, for reasons best known to himself, deleted all the images. (Why?)

All I can tell you is the cable used was Lapp Olflex (a three core cable with an overall screen), the BS 1363 plug was an MK silver-plated 'Toughplug' (fitted with a silver-plated Bussman fuse) and the IEC line socket was by Martin Kaiser.

So a new post/video would be most welcome!

Lapp Olflex is the exact cable Rega used in their mains cables, not sure if they still sell them separately nowadays but it’s what they supply with their higher end equipment.

A Hifi pal of mine and I built our own versions back in the day, made mains blocks using it and can say there’s a reason why Rega used it, it’s great mains cable.

That exact recipe was what we made our cables from, and sounded fantastic.
Toughplug is the best choice for DIY’ers imo as it allows thick gauge cable and has proper screw down terminals.

In this configuration different fuses made a difference, but a Caig Deoxit’d Bussman is the perfect baseline.

(but Hey, that’s a different argument… :))

[Wakefield Turntables]

I use the following components when making a power lead.

The mains plug - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/power-connectors-uk-mains-plugs/furutech/fi-uk1363-silver-plated-uk-mains-connector.html

The mains cable - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/belden-19364-mains-cable.html

The mains IEC - https://www.futureshop.co.uk/furutech-fi-15-iec-connector-copper

I use any fuse kicking around in my spares box.

I've used these same components for nearly 20 years.

[Gazjam]

Fair,
good list and some good kit there.

But not necessarily the best sound per pound imo?

Particularly Furitech (Vs MK Safety Plug)
(I’ve been there and tried stupid costing Furutech and Isotech stuff till I circled back on myself)

Spend as much as you can on where it makes a difference, but not a penny more than you need to on stuff that doesn’t?

Everyone’s take is different of course.
Im of the type that cleaning and Caig Deoxit’ing plug pins and fuse holders makes a difference, so of course fuses themselves (To me) will make an impact.

But Hey,

I’ve done dafter stuff in my time?
:)

[Jimbo]

Spent plenty of time polishing plug pins and contacts and deoxit.

Valve pins especially on NOS valves really made a difference…well after going through all 6 valves in the pre.:doh:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Fair,
good list and some good kit there.

But not necessarily the best sound per pound imo?

Particularly Furitech (Vs MK Safety Plug)
(I’ve been there and tried stupid costing Furutech and Isotech stuff till I circled back on myself)

Spend as much as you can on where it makes a difference, but not a penny more than you need to on stuff that doesn’t?

Everyone’s take is different of course.
Im of the type that cleaning and Caig Deoxit’ing plug pins and fuse holders makes a difference, so of course fuses themselves (To me) will make an impact.

But Hey,

I’ve done dafter stuff in my time?
:)

Gary, all stuff bought when I was much younger and more solvent! I've been using the same power cables for probably 10-15 years. I'll never need a power cable again. I wouldn't go down the same route as I did when I was younger, but you live and learn.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Spent plenty of time polishing plug pins and contacts and deoxit.

Valve pins especially on NOS valves really made a difference…well after going through all 6 valves in the pre.:doh:

You only really need to do this once every blue moon or unless you've got new valves.

[Jimbo]

You only really need to do this once every blue moon or unless you've got new valves.

Valve pins were black as they were NOS so 40-50 years old.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Valve pins were black as they were NOS so 40-50 years old.

An angle grinder might have been more beneficial. :eek:

[Jimbo]

An angle grinder might have been more beneficial. :eek:

:lol: