View Full Version : Technics SL-1500 Cartridge?
Looking for a cartridge for my SL-1500 stock arm or possible change later to a 1200 arm with a rewire. Budget is around $125. I have a Cambridge 640p preamp so I can run MC/MM. looking at AT95, Ortofon 2m red, Denon DL-110. Any other suggestions?
Please check the forum rules for new members before the Forum Police get ya!!!! :lol:
The SL1500/1400/1300 tonearms will take all you suggest (I have one right in front of me as I type (;)). Mass is higher than the current 1200 arm and I feel rigidity is better too.
My sample of the 150A arm had rattle in the bearings which I was well able to fix, but you'll need a special tool to slacken the locking nuts if severe cosmetic damage is to be avoided. I was lucky to have a Dual tonearm-bearing tool and the little points fitted the Technics locking nuts perfectly.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF1505.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF1507.jpg
In the UK, the DL110 has shot up in price, and not just because the exchange rate has changed in recent years. At £60 - £70 it was a bargain, but not at double this. The 2M-Red will be an excellent choice and the arm will be able to use the top "Black" model as well.
My advice is to get the 2m Red or the next one up if you can afford it, together with a Sumiko headshell. The old Techie headshell with sliding plastic mount might actually be OK, but I don't have one at present with which to compare it. For cheapness, an old ADC headshell should be great too.
One more thing about the SL1500. The supplied mat is good although the Herbies mat for the Techie turntables may be better overall and some better Isonoe style feet to replace the ageing rubber "bells," but PLEASE carefully slacken the lid fixing screws and remove it when playing records, as this lid adds all sorts of booming-drumming vibration into the deck and kills fine details and sense of space and "ambience" in the sound.
Hi 'bro2',
Welcome to AOS :)
Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your first name, basic geographic location, system details and music tastes, as this is the requirement for all new members joining AOS.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Bobby,
Thanks for popping into the Welcome area and saying hello :)
Moving magnet cartridges work best with the stock Technics tonearm, so my recommendations for a cartridge for your Techie at that price would be the Nagaoka MP-110, available from Musonic:
http://www.musonic.co.uk/mp110-cartridge-p-17894.html
It is truly a fabulous cartridge and outperforms anything at or near its price point, being detailed (but not artificially 'forward' souding like most modern cartridges), punchy, and unfailingly musical with all genres of music.
If you can stretch to the MP-150, then you'll definitely have a real giant-killer on your hands....
http://www.musonic.co.uk/mp150-cartridge-p-17417.html
That one outperforms some budget MC cartridges in many areas!!
Personally, Black aside, I'm not a fan of the Ortofon MM cartridges, as they're somewhat 'toppy' for my tastes.
Another excellent option would be the Pickering V15 series. Some examples here (the AME 3 would be your best currently available option):
http://www.adelcom.net/PickeringCart1.htm
Or the XV15 625E, available here:
http://www.pickeringuk.com/hifi.html
Again, the Pickerings are very musical sounding cartridges without the overemphasised top-end I hear in so many modern designs, MM or MC, but it's in no way soft or dull sounding - just very fluid, 'boppy', and addictive to listen to.
Or the Stanton 681EEE MKIII is quite similar: http://www.needledoctor.com/Stanton-681-EEE-Mk-III-Cartridge
One last, somewhat off-the-wall suggestion, is the 'audiophile tweaked' Ortofons KAB are currently offering ('Pro S' or 'OM' series) with 'fancy' styli, that I haven't heard, but which some are raving about as being the finest MM cartridges they've ever used!
See here: http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/ortofon.htm
Hopefully those rather 'left-field' suggestions will tickle your tastebuds! I like to get away from recommending the same old boring Ortofons, Goldrings and Audio Technicas, which every bugger under the sun has ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
03-10-2010, 21:49
I've just last week popped on an old cheap Technics 'EPC-U25' cart on my mates turntable & you know what it sounds great a shade light in the bass department but ok..I always though some Technics cartridge very good i use EPC-205 & 207's for years, i never wanted anything else..you must use NOS styli for those two tho..
Thanks for the suggestions. The Nagaoka's sound like they might be what I am looking for. How much of a difference is there from MP-11 and the MP-110?
Hi Bobby,
I've never done a direct comparison, but if you can get hold of an MP11 (I believe Peter Stockwell, who posts here, has a couple for sale, so maybe PM him?) then go for that, as it will be cheaper and likely just as good, or if you want new, then go for the MP-110....
Both will be excellent cartridges and will work very well with the arm on your SL-1500 :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
03-10-2010, 22:35
Thanks for the suggestions. The Nagaoka's sound like they might be what I am looking for. How much of a difference is there from MP-11 and the MP-110?
Try get hold of the 'MP11' Boron, doubt you'll get a Boron Styli for it but the 'MP20' will fit
What a wonderful choice of cartridges suggested by Marco. Isn't it great to see so many great Moving Magnets around still?
I've always had a soft spot for a good MM's robust sound. Maybe not as refined as a good MC but loads of fun: I love MM bass.
That Ortofon Black is meant to be the business isn't it? I'd love to hear one and the Nagaoka MP 500 is reputed to be the equal of many a Decca.
The Pickerings do sound great but look at the state of that mounting bracket..... No rigidity there I'm afraid.
We haven't mentioned any of Joe Grado's products how about a Sonata or similar?
No long cantelever just asking to be wiped out, no extra step up, no loading issues, replacent stylii without a rebuild..... Yes, there's a lot to like if recent MM's are as good as they say.
Rare Bird
03-10-2010, 22:41
Hi Darren
Aye but the Pickering XLZ-7500S with PLZ sounds wonderfull
Hi Darren
Aye but the Pickering XLZ-7500S with PLZ sounds wonderfull
Hi Andre, it's certainly an interesting setup. But do you still think it's competitive when you add the cost of the PLZ on? The combined cost is getting close to that of the Nagaoka MP400.......
I haven't heard one so this is a genuine question.
The Pickering/Stanton mounting bracket may not look very rigid, but the high compliance (relatively speaking) of their styli means that the structure is rarely taxed, so not an issue :)
OK, I have narrowed it down to 2. The Ortofon 2m red or the Nagaoka MP-110.
I think either of these will work great just need to make my mind up.:scratch:
What type of sound do you like, Bobby? I've used both and so can describe their sonic signature to help you decide :)
Marco.
Listen to alot of late 60's rock. Hendrix, Cream, Doors, Fleetwood Mac & Black Sabbath. Also listen to alot of Jazz. Dave Brubeck, John Coltrane,etc.
Fave 60' band Blue Cheer.
Lol - I meant what kind of sound do you like...
Are you a bass freak, or do you value a communicative midrange more, or do you love sparkly top-end detail over anything else and care not about bass definition and tone - that kind of thing, although of course your music tastes are still very relevant!
Once I know what kind of sound you like I'll be in a better postition to give you a proper recommendation, as both cartridges are voiced rather differently :)
Marco.
Sorry about that. :doh:
I really like voices and defined highs. I like bass, but not in your face. not too forward.
Hi Bobby,
There's an argument for both, but I think the Nagaoka is more likely to be your thing :)
Marco.
Marco, Thanks for the advice. I will purchase a MP-110 this week. Would a better headshell be in order, or will the stock headshell work?
If you don't want the stock headshell (with single screw on top and a sliding plastic mount inside), could I have first dibs on it please???
The Nagaoka, if like it's predecessor and the MP15 I sold to Alex here, may be a high compliance design, so watch out for "wobbling" on warped records. The modern Technics headshell will be fine in this instance, perhaps with better (Sumiko) headshell wires, although mm carts have far higher output. Changing the headshell to a Sumiko or similar may just take the tonearm effective-mass a bit too high, but you could try it and see.
The Ortofon Red may just be a better mechanical match to the tonearm, in which case I'd suggest the Sumiko shell as part of the upgrade.
It's a good arm this one, and will take all maner of the mid-priced moving coils as well. Don't be put off by the exit cable either, it's a solid core copper with foamed dialectric and good screening, selected for the job and the internal wires on mine don't look bad at all either. The moulded phono plugs don't look posh enough to be any good, although they work really well, but for cosmetic sake, they could be changed for some pro Neutriks or similar.....
Moving magnet cartridges work best with the stock Technics tonearm.
Personally, Black aside, I'm not a fan of the Ortofon MM cartridges, as they're somewhat 'toppy' for my tastes.
Marco.
Got to reply to this Marco....
The SL1500 tonearm ISN'T the same as the modern Techie tonearm. It's heavier and will work great with many moving coils. The Dynavector 20A was a firm favourite, as was the 10X at the time, so this can easily be translated to the current versions IMO.
Ortofon MM's are neutral, so if you find them toppy, may I suggest you turn down your Tannoy pepperpots until they're NOT toppy? You may then find yourself in agreement with me about the SPU :lol: :respect:
Hi Dave,
Fair enough regarding the tonearm on the SL-1500, and noted :)
However, I'm not sure it's relevant in this instance as I doubt Bobby has the funds to buy a quality MC cartridge (read as low output), and has the necessary ancillaries to make it work properly.
That's one for the future for him. With his current budget, he'll get maximum 'bang for his buck' with the Nagaoka.
As for the Ortofon, it's not so much that it's 'toppy', but rather that I find it has the now ubiquitous modern 'cold and clinical' sonic balance, which is present in most cartridges made today at virtually any price.
They rob the sound of natural warmth, superficially increasing detail through creating a falsely explicit presence range, thus making them appear as 'neutral', because manufacturers believe that's the type of sonic signature people want in equipment these days. I could say much about this, but we'll leave it for another day.
You may consider this as 'neutral', but I don't. It's rather like listening to someone's voice on the telephone, and then hearing it in real life: the former lacks natural warmth and body, and has a 'thin' tone, making the person sound like a Dalek, and the latter has proper resonance, depth, natural colour, and realistic tone.
That's an exaggerated example, of course, but I think you can see where I'm coming from. And it's not just cartridges which are voiced that way today, but sadly also electronics and speakers.
There was a discussion elsewhere on the forum recently about speakers having a 'flat' frequency response, and the advantages and disadvantages of this, and I think it was Anthony TD who made the point that a 'flat' frequency response often makes for a flat sound (as in bland and uninteresting)....
It may be 'neutral' (although not in my opinion) but it sounds FLAT - read as monochromatic. Well, that's precisely how I feel about the Ortofon and all cartridges these days which have that type of sonic signature.
The cartridges I recommended earlier, such as the Nagaoka, avoid this type of signature and reproduce music with the requisite warmth and body without in any way sounding bloated or lacking in detail in - they just allow music to 'breathe' and flow naturally (as well as possible, of course, at their price point).
As for the Tannoy jibe, I've told you before, old boy, there's nothing to 'turn down' on my Monitor Golds, as the tone controls have long since been removed. Everything is hard-wired. There is also nothing 'toppy' about them whatsoever.
Does it sound like I would put up with that type of presentation?
I think you're forgetting that Monitor Golds with their stock crossovers sound rather 'warm & cuddly' (even if you turned the treble all the way up!), not in any way 'toppy' (you must be getting mixed up with HPDs), so I had to upgrade the crossovers to remove that coloration and make the sound more neutral.
Now they are genuinely transparent and highly revealing monitors, which act as a wide-open window onto the music, and are used on the end of a system that has similar transparency, which is precisely why I can so easily hear what's wrong with the way many of today's cartridges are voiced! ;)
Marco.
P.S I'm liking the Decca very much, so you and I are in agreement on that one. I'll go into more detail on this later.
Rare Bird
05-10-2010, 10:14
Why not buy the Ortofon 'Red' from Hamish he can't use (thats if he's not keepin' it)?
Lol - because he likes the Nagaoka, Andre! :)
Did you not read the above, dude? ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
05-10-2010, 10:36
If it's more that a paragraph long i loose intrest :lol:
I was just trying to help both parties out..Nags are safe bet.
Oh Marco, you do take things seriously :lol:
The old Tannoy DC's (Lancasters/Chatsworths/Yorks) did have a "sting" in them, although cabinet colouration got in the way of making it unpleasant. Yours have a nearer correct cab volume, so will be better in any case I think.
I'd also mention for the benefit of everyone that much of this natural warmth wasn't cut into the vinyl to start with, as the assumption was that granny's groove-grinder BSR or Garrard auto deck would jump, also that most cartridges of the period had a suckout in the treble. As a result of this, many records over past decades are actually too bright and "toppy," or, if cut "flat," dull as ditchwater once the male-female-master-stampers have got in the way. The Decca measures "flat" yet doesn't sound toppy at all unless it's there in the recording, so maybe I'm getting a touch of what you take for granted Marco - and all this from a springy rubber-band drive antique ;)
Anyway, all this is drifting too far from the OP's questions. If he buys the Nagaoka, I really hope he enjoys it. I'd still stand by my recommendations for isolation and lid removal though, as any performance potential in the SL1500 and siblings is totally dependant on these being attended to.
Oh Marco, you do take things seriously....
Lol - no, not at all. I'm serious when I need to be serious, particularly when I feel that misinformation is being perpetrated which will be read all over the world on this site for years to come ;)
The old Tannoy DC's (Lancasters/Chatsworths/Yorks) did have a "sting" in them, although cabinet colouration got in the way of making it unpleasant. Yours have a nearer correct cab volume, so will be better in any case I think.
Indeed, but like you say, I don't use Lancasters, Chatsworths or Yorks. In fact, the Lockwoods sound nothing like them, so different rules apply....
I'd also mention for the benefit of everyone that much of this nautral warmth wasn't cut into the vinyl to start with, as the assumption was that granny's groove-grinder BSR or Garrard auto deck would jump, also that most vartridges of the period had a suckout in the treble. As a result of this, many records over past decades are actually too bright and "toppy," or, if cut "flat," dull as ditchwater once the male-female-master-stampers have got in the way.
Can't argue with any of that, but if you listen to an accurately recorded pressing on vinyl (such as any of the superb Original Master Recordings from Mobile Fidelity), and play it back through a transparent turntable and system with a Nagaoka MP-110 or an Ortofon Red, trust me, you will easily hear how the latter robs voices and instruments of their natural warmth.
The only way you can analyse these things properly is by using high-fidelity recordings as a benchmark, not the 'f*cked about' pressings on vinyl you're referring to.
The Decca measures "flat" yet doesn't sound toppy at all unless it's there in the recording...
I completely agree, as that's what I've heard with Barry's London Gold. Thing is, how then can the Ortofon be 'neutral', when it sounds 'toppy', and yet the Decca appears as 'neutral' without being 'toppy'? :scratch:
One of them must therefore NOT be neutral, and it's not the Decca! ;)
...so maybe I'm getting a touch of what you take for granted Marco - and all this from a springy rubber-band drive antique...
Lol - I like your deck, Dave, as you well know, but it sounds rather different from my Techie! As long as you enjoy listening to music on it, that's all that matters.
Anyway, all this is drifting too far from the OP's questions. If he buys the Nagaoka, I really hope he enjoys it. I'd still stand by my recommendations for isolation and lid removal though, as any performance potential in the SL1500 and siblings is totally dependant on these being attended to.
That's good advice, dude :cool:
Marco.
Can't really add to the above except to say that the fugged up vinyl was quite often "first pressings" of many albums. CD's were often made of these pre-eq'd tapes and this does explain why many early transfers sounded thin toned... Mo-Fi did good if they understood the original recordings (not every time though) but I prefer the Nimbus re-cuts I have (I wonder if Denis Blackham [Bilbo - Skyemastering] did these in his time there).
Just to finish off - most vinyl, whatever the cut, tends to soften dynamics and transients a tad. I tend to prefer a brighter, toppier balance from records, especially if a mm style cartridge is used. MC's tend to be a bit more powerful sounding, so tonal balance may not be such an issue to me (although I hated the early Koetsu "Red" balance and over-damping).
Hi Dave,
Can't really add to the above....
How about this bit, mate:
The Decca measures "flat" yet doesn't sound toppy at all unless it's there in the recording...
I completely agree, as that's what I've heard with Barry's London Gold. Thing is, how then can the Ortofon be 'neutral', when it sounds 'toppy', and yet the Decca appears as 'neutral' without being 'toppy'? :scratch:
One of them must therefore NOT be neutral, and it's not the Decca! ;)
Your thoughts please?? :)
...except to say that the fugged up vinyl was quite often "first pressings" of many albums. CD's were often made of these pre-eq'd tapes and this does explain why many early transfers sounded thin toned... Mo-Fi did good if they understood the original recordings (not every time though) but I prefer the Nimbus re-cuts I have (I wonder if Denis Blackham [Bilbo - Skyemastering] did these in his time there).
I agree with that and that the Nimbus are good (and Bilbo was da man), but for me the Mo-Fi Original Masters are absolutely sublime, with a clarity and sheer gob-smacking realism that, quite frankly, I have never heard before from vinyl, aside from the best recordings from the 50s and early 60s on the likes of Capitol and Columbia, Decca, etc, which get close.
The Mo-Fi Masters aren't cheap (around £40 a pop) but, goodness me, if you have a top-notch T/T and want to hear what vinyl really is capable of (and piss all over CD), then you owe it to yourself to add some Mo-Fis to your collection.......! :eek:
Just to finish off - most vinyl, whatever the cut, tends to soften dynamics and transients a tad. I tend to prefer a brighter, toppier balance from records, especially if a mm style cartridge is used. MC's tend to be a bit more powerful sounding, so tonal balance may not be such an issue to me
That's fine, Dave, if that's what you like and you can get away with it the way your system is balanced.
With the system and speakers I'm using being so transparent and revealing, any exaggerated response in the frequency range of a cartridge is highlighted in all its 'glory', which I why I can notice these things so easily and they get on my nerves, and so prefer more natural and even-handed designs.
Go on, admit it mate, you like toppy sounding cartridges because they inject a bit of life into yer old bunged up lugs, and your vintage Spendors, which were never exactly bristling with top-end sparkle! :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
BC2's have sparkle because the 700 - 5Khz region is sagged a bit in the classic BBC "Smile" response shape (mainly to mask the bass driver taking off at the top of its range - the SA2 and Prelude are balanced much the same, using similar bass drivers as they do). I'd like a bit more presence sometimes, but don't want the harshness associated with many lower priced passive speakers. I have a deep sentimental attachment to these BC2's anyway, so the next thing will be to re-wire with heavier gauge cables (I have cable and terminals but can't be a*sed to do it right now).
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/SpendorBCPlots.jpg
The Bc2 plot is the middle one. The driver takes off at 1.5KHz although mine are late SA2 ones which were tweaked I understand. The "smile" is clearly visible.
Below, the HiFi Choice Microscanner review-
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/GarrottDeccaChoice.jpg
My lugs are almost right (as much as they will be) but I have possible blood-sugar probs now and won't know more until I've seen the nurse on friday :(
The TD125 gives me a slightly "safe" rendition I think. Is this your experience? Regarding tonal balance, I played my Nick Drake vinyl which can sound "tubby" and when you compare with "Points on a Curve" by Wang Chung which has little bass at all, it's fascinating.
BC2's have sparkle because the 700 - 5Khz region is sagged a bit in the classic BBC "Smile" response shape (mainly to mask the bass driver taking off at the top of its range - the SA2 and Prelude are balanced much the same, using similar bass drivers as they do). I'd like a bit more presence sometimes, but don't want the harshness associated with many lower priced passive speakers. I have a deep sentimental attachment to these BC2's anyway, so the next thing will be to re-wire with heavier gauge cables (I have cable and terminals but can't be a*sed to do it right now).
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/SpendorBCPlots.jpg
The Bc2 plot is the middle one. The driver takes off at 1.5KHz although mine are late SA2 ones which were tweaked I understand. The "smile" is clearly visible.
Below, the HiFi Choice Microscanner review-
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/GarrottDeccaChoice.jpg
My lugs are almost right (as much as they will be) but I have possible blood-sugar probs now and won't know more until I've seen the nurse on friday :(
The TD125 gives me a slightly "safe" rendition I think. Is this your experience? Regarding tonal balance, I played my Nick Drake vinyl which can sound "tubby" and when you compare with "Points on a Curve" by Wang Chung which has little bass at all, it's fascinating.
Wang chung! Yea baby.... That's class.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for that, although I was pullin' ya plonka about yer Spendoroonies........ ;)
Btw, I don't think I've ever seen a picture of them, so would you oblige?
What's your take on the Ortofon/Decca conundrum, then (as I've outlined above)? BOTH can't be 'neutral'!
My lugs are almost right (as much as they will be) but I have possible blood-sugar probs now and won't know more until I've seen the nurse on friday...
Sorry to hear that, mate, and hope all goes well! :)
The TD125 gives me a slightly "safe" rendition I think. Is this your experience?
Yes, I would say that's a fairly accurate observation. It's a nice musical sounding turntable, though, and very well built.
Regarding tonal balance, I played my Nick Drake vinyl which can sound "tubby" and when you compare with "Points on a Curve" by Wang Chung which has little bass at all, it's fascinating.
Was this with the Decca? Yes, there are undoubtedly many different styles of recordings out there.
Marco.
:)
BC2 inside -
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0363.jpg
BC2 outside -
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF1508.jpg
............
What's your take on the Ortofon/Decca conundrum, then (as I've outlined above)? BOTH can't be 'neutral'! ...........
I'm not sure if either of them are 'neutral'. For all its glorious attributes I don't think any Decca is neutral, though I have yet to hear the modern fare. I would also need to spend more time with the SPU (and re-visit my SL15E's) to comment properly, but on short acquaintence I could think the Ortofon slightly 'lush'.
By the way, I've got the EMT/SME problem sorted out at last. Will chat to you about a possible comparison: EMT vis à vis the SPU. :)
Regards
With a suitable turntable and mount, the Decca is "technically" the more neutral, as its occasional lack of bass and depth is more to do with what's really on the record IMO.
I still have mixed feelings about the SPU. It certainly puts a huge grin on your face, but i remain to be convinced the portrayal is a truthful one. Sorry Marco, but if it was so good, why did Ortofon develop the SL15 and all the MC series which still live on at high prices and fancy names today. I reckon they keep the SPU on for the far eastern market primarily, where badge snobbery and prestige/cachet rule over anything else IMO.
I've said before, records are very funny things to reproduce. You either get a totally "wrong" organic flow which gets the heart racing to orgasmic highs, or a "right/correct" cerebral experience which can leave you cold emotionally (Ortofon MC2000/5000 anyone?). Many forms of getting a "balance" of virtues (Shure V15V and siblings) never quite hit the spot and expensive references like the AN IO series are still too polite despite their other virtues. The Decca is about as "wild" as I could go and I'm amazed how well behaved it is in my current setup. The graphite platter of the better NAS decks was a perfect mechanical match for the Decca I found and the sheer dynamics and, well, "music" that came out was the closest to master-tape I'd heard from records and the ATC's loved it in the short time it worked properly with them. Once it failed, I couldn't find anything at a sensible affordable price that came close. At least it's now repaired and running better than I could have hoped for.
Hi Dave,
With a suitable turntable and mount, the Decca is "technically" the more neutral, as its occasional lack of bass and depth is more to do with what's really on the record IMO.
I would say that the Decca is voiced in such a way as to remain faithful to the 'soul' of the music and as close as possible to how real voices and instruments *actually* sound, thus it is likely to be technically more 'neutral' as by-product of that. The SPU is the same in that respect, when partnered synergistically and where bespoke high quality (aftermarket) transformers are in use. That last bit is crucial.
The voicing of the Ortofon Red reflects what manufacturers these days view as the type of sound that their customers want (or rather have been brain-washed into thinking is 'correct'), and this type of, in my view, artificially 'pumped up' sound, is rolled out into the design of electronics and speakers too, in my opinion, moving us further away today from any notion of 'neutrality' than we have ever been.
Both the Decca and SPU are from an era where the benchmark for vinyl (in terms of the standards of recording quality) was in a different league to that of today, out with of specialist audiophile pressings, and the design and voicing of both of these cartridges reflects the higher standards then and when consumers were, I believe, in general also rather more discerning as to what constitued as 'realistic' sound.
I still have mixed feelings about the SPU. It certainly puts a huge grin on your face, but i remain to be convinced the portrayal is a truthful one.
Well, Dave, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, you've not heard an SPU in what experience tells me is an optimised set-up ;)
Sorry Marco, but if it was so good, why did Ortofon develop the SL15 and all the MC series which still live on at high prices and fancy names today.
That's very easy. All cartridge manufacturers make new designs which are touted as being superior to the model they replaced (they are running a business, after all), when in reality that isn't always necessarily the case.
Look at the M3D, for example. Now there is no modern Shure cartridge I've heard that sounds anything nearly as good, musically, as the M3D does. Yes, modern ones may 'measure' better, but none sound as good, which takes us back to the problem I was discussing earlier with how products are voiced these days.
Barry, I believe bought the successor to the M3D (I forget the model number) in the days when both were produced, and after hearing my M3D set-up optimally in a high-mass headshell, etc, remarked that it sounded far better than he remembered did the so-called M3D's 'superior' successor, as Shure claimed it was at the time, or indeed what he remembered of the M3D when he used it.
There are other examples I could cite of this happening, so you cannot automatically presume that the 'latest and greatest' anything from a manufacturer is in fact the best (or better) than were some previous designs. Commercial reality, and the need to constantly sell new products to satisfy the demands of fashion, will tend to skew the truth. That's not to say, however, that the SL15 and the MC series Ortofon later produced were not good designs, they were - very much so - but none IMO (and I suspect Ortofon agreed), quite matched the magic that the SPU was capable of.
Furthermore, if you were to compare the voicing of the current offerings from Ortofon to the MC series (as you say, now 'classics' in their own right), you would hear just how different they sound, and not in my opinion in a good way either, which again ably demonstrates that new isn't necessarily always best.........
As for the SPU, I contend that Ortofon knew how special it was from the beginning and that they had hit upon a 'recipe' that was so musically right, that to discontinue it would have been commercial suicide. The SPU, with its unique musical qualities, gave the company worldwide acclaim amongst audiophiles, and the kudos that goes with it, thus it remains to this day. Ortofon, rightly in my view, see it as a timeless and iconic design, much in the same was as I suspect Denon view the DL-103.
As for your comment about the far eastern market and badge snobbery, undoubtedly that exists, as it does with any premium product, but more importantly in my experience, Japanese audiophiles have extremely good ears and recognise equipment which is rather special - witness their love of the SP10, and of course large vintage Tannoys, to name but two exceptional products the performance of which, in many areas, is unmatched today.
The very same applies to the SPU.
Marco.
Lots to ponder...
I do like the SL15e though. the thing with ortofon is that they can create any "sound" they wish - I hated the Contrapunkts I heard - one was all syrup and fruit, the better one being better as I recall, yet the MC2000 and over, sounded bleached by comparison.
"I hated the Contrapunkts I heard - one was all syrup and fruit, the better one being better as I recall..."
Isnt it strange how far listening experiences differ? I had a contrapunkt B from new and loved it's strict neutrality and clarity. Surface noise was spookily low and tracking was excellent.
It was mounted on a NAS Hyperspace with their 12" unipivot and syrup was the last word you would have used to describe the combo.
Infact I sometimes longed for a bit of the warmth and romance of say a Koetsu red.
Amps were Conrad Johnson power and Croft pre while speakers were Baby Magneplanar .6 ( still over 4ft tall!)
Hi Dave,
I would say that the Decca is voiced in such a way as to remain faithful to the 'soul' of the music and as close as possible to how real voices and instruments *actually* sound, thus it is likely to be technically more 'neutral' as by-product of that. The SPU is the same in that respect, when partnered synergistically and where bespoke high quality (aftermarket) transformers are in use. That last bit is crucial.
The voicing of the Ortofon Red reflects what manufacturers these days view as the type of sound that their customers want (or rather have been brain-washed into thinking is 'correct'), and this type of, in my view, artificially 'pumped up' sound, is rolled out into the design of electronics and speakers too, in my opinion, moving us further away today from any notion of 'neutrality' than we have ever been.
Both the Decca and SPU are from an era where the benchmark for vinyl (in terms of the standards of recording quality) was in a different league to that of today, out with of specialist audiophile pressings, and the design and voicing of both of these cartridges reflects the higher standards then and when consumers were, I believe, in general also rather more discerning as to what constitued as 'realistic' sound.
Well, Dave, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, you've not heard an SPU in what experience tells me is an optimised set-up ;)
That's very easy. All cartridge manufacturers make new designs which are touted as being superior to the model they replaced (they are running a business, after all), when in reality that isn't always necessarily the case.
Look at the M3D, for example. Now there is no modern Shure cartridge I've heard that sounds anything nearly as good, musically, as the M3D does. Yes, modern ones may 'measure' better, but none sound as good, which takes us back to the problem I was discussing earlier with how products are voiced these days.
Barry, I believe bought the successor to the M3D (I forget the model number) in the days when both were produced, and after hearing my M3D set-up optimally in a high-mass headshell, etc, remarked that it sounded far better than he remembered did the so-called M3D's 'superior' successor, as Shure claimed it was at the time, or indeed what he remembered of the M3D when he used it.
There are other examples I could cite of this happening, so you cannot automatically presume that the 'latest and greatest' anything from a manufacturer is in fact the best (or better) than were some previous designs. Commercial reality, and the need to constantly sell new products to satisfy the demands of fashion, will tend to skew the truth. That's not to say, however, that the SL15 and the MC series Ortofon later produced were not good designs, they were - very much so - but none IMO (and I suspect Ortofon agreed), quite matched the magic that the SPU was capable of.
Furthermore, if you were to compare the voicing of the current offerings from Ortofon to the MC series (as you say, now 'classics' in their own right), you would hear just how different they sound, and not in my opinion in a good way either, which again ably demonstrates that new isn't necessarily always best.........
As for the SPU, I contend that Ortofon knew how special it was from the beginning and that they had hit upon a 'recipe' that was so musically right, that to discontinue it would have been commercial suicide. The SPU, with its unique musical qualities, gave the company worldwide acclaim amongst audiophiles, and the kudos that goes with it, thus it remains to this day. Ortofon, rightly in my view, see it as a timeless and iconic design, much in the same was as I suspect Denon view the DL-103.
As for your comment about the far eastern market and badge snobbery, undoubtedly that exists, as it does with any premium product, but more importantly in my experience, Japanese audiophiles have extremely good ears and recognise equipment which is rather special - witness their love of the SP10, and of course large vintage Tannoys, to name but two exceptional products the performance of which, in many areas, is unmatched today.
The very same applies to the SPU.
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I think what I said was, the presentation of your M3D in the heavy FR headshell, sounded much better than from how remember my M3D sounding in the lightweight SME headshell, I used nearly forty years ago (!). When I replaced the M3D with the M55E, also fitted in the SME headshell, the latter sounded to me to be a big improvement. Now there are a couple of things to bear in mind:
(1) It was nearly forty years ago, had just starting out in the hi-fi game, so I was inexperienced.
(2) The M55E could well have been designed to be used in a lightweight headshell/arm. Certainly SME promoted its use in their advertising: it was the reason why I bought it in the first place. Shure and SME were agents for one-another's products in those days.
I no longer have either the M3D or the original M55E. I do have a second M55E, having a black-coloured body, whereas my original had a brown-coloured body; I don't know if that makes any difference. It too is fitted in an SME headshell. I haven't listened to it, but I am re-evaluating some of the fixed coil cartridges I have, so it will be included.
Ideally I should bring the M55E up to yours Marco, for you to compare with your M3D. I would like to spend more lime listening to your M3D - Hell what with all this cartridge comparison going on chez vous, do you know of a good B&B near you that could put me up?
Regards
The M55E has a massive tip resonance at about 16Khz as I remember and this may overload certain phono stages (maybe not Decca optimised valve ones in fairness). I'll have to get a Jico or "Ed Saunders" stylus for mine at some point and give it a try.
Just quickly, I discovered to day that the SL150/1500 sounds MUCH better if the springy rubber feet are bypassed and the deck "directly coupled" to a firm support. The difference in bass "tunefulness" was quite marked using the ADC VLM II cartridge mounted up in it. I tried the Decca too and it sounded horrid!
Just to add my (early) thoughts now being the custodian of the SL-150/1500 Dave references, I have fitted my Nagaoka MP-15 and Sumiko headshell, and it seems to work fine. The standard counterweight will be towards the end of its operating limits, but you won't need to resort to 50 pence pieces and Blutak (or other appropriate denomination depending on your local currency :lol:) to set the arm up correctly. The extra mass of the Sumiko with the Nagaoka seems to work well, and on the assumption that other models (i.e. the MP-110) are not too dissimilar in weight and dimensions (I don't think they are) then this will be a very good combination I suspect.
Alex, there used to be a sub-weight supplied with the arm I think, but I'm afraid that this sample (from an SL1500) didn't come with one. I can't guarantee it, but the current one might just fit if you're lucky. Either way, blu-tac shoved in the hole in the counterweight stub may be all you need.....
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