Steely Dan 'Royal Scam' UHQR issue

[Phil Lawton]

I've received the final UHQR pressing of the first seven Steely Dan albums. The album in question is 'Royal Scam'.

However, I have a weird issue, in that some of the tracks have wild distortion, akin to having been vandalised with a drawing pin, on some of the tracks. It's always when hi-hats are used in the tracks.

From reading a few forums and fellow Discogs members comments, the issue is widespread. Some owners report no problems, while other report exactly the same as my own. Some have said that the album and hi-hats have been mixed "hot" but that's not what I and several other are hearing. What is produced is like a loud burst of white noise when the hi-hats kick in, but only on some tracks ("Caves Of Altamira" being the main culprit).

Some have received a replacement copy with the same result and I'm convinced that it's a gear issue, rather than a problem with the pressing.

Does anyone here have a copy of this UHQR and is having the same problem? If so or if not, any suggestions on a cure? I've tried adjust my 'table's bias and tracking weight, but there's no change.

If it were not for the fact that this was £180, I'd be inclined to think "Ah, well" and put it down to experience, but that's a fair chunk of moolah to be writing off.

[Ali Tait]

I'd ask for a replacement. Have you a different cart you could try?

I'm having similar problems since fitting an MP700 which I need to confirm with another cart when I get time. Exact same issue with the MOFI 45rpm reissue of Dire Strait's first album, haven't played it all but have that same issue with high hats on "Down To The Waterline". There's issues with one or two other albums and I'm thinking it may be down to the effective mass of my Reed arm being a bit high for the cart- that or that fact it's not run in yet. I only opened the album after I'd fitted the Nag so haven't tried it on another cart yet.

What's the arm and cart you're using?

[Phil Lawton]

I'd ask for a replacement. Have you a different cart you could try?

I'm having similar problems since fitting an MP700 which I need to confirm with another cart when I get time. Exact same issue with the MOFI 45rpm reissue of Dire Strait's first album, haven't played it all but have that same issue with high hats on "Down To The Waterline". There's issues with one or two other albums and I'm thinking it may be down to the effective mass of my Reed arm being a bit high for the cart- that or that fact it's not run in yet. I only opened the album after I'd fitted the Nag so haven't tried it on another cart yet.

What's the arm and cart you're using?

Hi, Ali

It's a Clearaudio with a Satisfy arm (I think) with an Ortofon 2M Bronze cart.

I don't have an alternative to the Ortofon, unfortunately, and know no-one with relevant gear whom I can ask to try the same record.

I might have to prey on the kindness of a local hi-fi store to test the record on another system. It's really weird, as none of the other six albums in the series have the same problem.

[Ali Tait]

Would be worth checking what the effective mass of the arm is and the compliance of the cart to see if that may be an issue.

[Phil Lawton]

Would be worth checking what the effective mass of the arm is and the compliance of the cart to see if that may be an issue.

In seven years, the arm has never given me problems…two trouble-free years in with the 2M Bronze.

Never had this issue with any other platter…much as I’m open to it being a gear problem, I don’t think it’s because my gear is a problem, if you get my drift.

I’ve got another copy of the UHQR on the way, arriving next week (while I’m away on holiday), so I’ll report back then, too.

[Phil Lawton]

I work in the middle of Birmingham - I’m going to see if I can drop into a hi-fi shop in my lunch hour on Wednesday and get them to give this copy a spin.

[Lawrence001]

Sounds like a scam to me

[Pigmy Pony]

Aye, a right royal one :)

Just sounds to me like a batch of crappy pressings, which they failed to bin.

[Phil Lawton]

Just tried a couple of hi-fi places in Birmingham - neither would entertain the idea of playing this to see if there was any difference on their system.

I don't suppose there's anyone near Meriden CV7 who is up for me dropping in for half an hour, is there?

[Macca]

I'm in Stoke but probably a bit far to come just to test a record. Take a bit over an hour if you use the M6 Toll.

Must be someone closer.

[Macca]

Why would the shops not entertain the idea? Not exactly a big deal to stick it on for 5 minutes.

[rmcin626]

Why would the shops not entertain the idea? Not exactly a big deal to stick it on for 5 minutes.

Yeah I was a bit surprised that they wouldn’t assist

[Phil Lawton]

Yeah I was a bit surprised that they wouldn’t assist

All both of them said was "if every other record plays OK on your system, it's the record".

Thanks for the offer, Macca, but Stoke's a bit of a hike.

Bit stuck for ideas of who to ask, really...I suppose this is what happens when you've spent your whole life not being gregarious.

[Macca]

All both of them said was "if every other record plays OK on your system, it's the record".

Thanks for the offer, Macca, but Stoke's a bit of a hike.
.

In fairness to them they are almost certainly correct but can't see how it would hurt for them to just play the record for you to demonstrate that.

All those UHQR pressings are supposed to be individually inspected for quality.

I notice on SHF there's also some debate as to whether it plays at the right speed.

[Pete The Cat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWm6lfMFGHA

Aside from the obvious drawbacks of low bitrate etc I sometimes find that checking one of the YouTubers' rips of an album can help. In the section from 5m35s the cymbals are like a hairspray (this guy has a VPI deck and arm). Doesn't answer your question of what to do, but reaffirms that you can believe in your own ears and system.

[Stratmangler]

I notice on SHF there's also some debate as to whether it plays at the right speed.
Kid Charlemagne was the wrong speed on one of the remastered CD releases.

I have a UK first press of the album, and Kid Charlemagne bops along like a goodun.
I also have the recent release remastered LP (the standard one), and 'Kid' runs at the same speed.

I can't see anything coming out from Bernie Grundman Mastering without having been referenced and cross referenced multiple times.
Not on this project.

[Macca]

Kid Charlemagne was the wrong speed on one of the remastered CD releases.

I have a UK first press of the album, and Kid Charlemagne bops along like a goodun.
I also have the recent release remastered LP (the standard one), and 'Kid' runs at the same speed.

I can't see anything coming out from Bernie Grundman Mastering without having been referenced and cross referenced multiple times.
Not on this project.

I've only skimmed the related threads but someone put up an image of some master tapes that show the track length, which is about the only reference there is, and there does seem to be a variance from that from issue to issue, from a second to seven seconds.

I think the issue came about with some saying 'Kid Charlemagne' was noticeably slower compared to what they were used to hearing over the last 49 years.

I have a very old vinyl copy of 'Royal Scam' that I bought second hand back in the 1980s, the 'Greatest Hits' album (two vinyl copies and the CD) and the 1999 remaster of the Royal Scam on CD and can't say it ever occurred to me that the song was running slower or faster between any of those versions.

7 seconds is a big difference. If it's true.

[Phil Lawton]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWm6lfMFGHA

Aside from the obvious drawbacks of low bitrate etc I sometimes find that checking one of the YouTubers' rips of an album can help. In the section from 5m35s the cymbals are like a hairspray (this guy has a VPI deck and arm). Doesn't answer your question of what to do, but reaffirms that you can believe in your own ears and system.

Even more pronounced on my copy - distorts like you wouldn't believe on that track, along with "Haitian Divorce".

Again, if anyone is close to Meriden CV7 and is open for me to nip around for thirty minutes to test it, I'd be hugely grateful (and won't overstay my welcome).

[Phil Lawton]

And I played my Japanese VIM pressing of this album last night. I paid £25 for it a few years back (NM, Obi and insert included...goes for four or five times that now).

I have to say that it walks all over this UHQR pressing; my other half commented "I was expecting the UHQR to sound like that...it's amazing..."

Yeah...well...for £180, the UHQR should have done...and more.

[Stratmangler]

I've only skimmed the related threads but someone put up an image of some master tapes that show the track length, which is about the only reference there is, and there does seem to be a variance from that from issue to issue, from a second to seven seconds.

I think the issue came about with some saying 'Kid Charlemagne' was noticeably slower compared to what they were used to hearing over the last 49 years.

I have a very old vinyl copy of 'Royal Scam' that I bought second hand back in the 1980s, the 'Greatest Hits' album (two vinyl copies and the CD) and the 1999 remaster of the Royal Scam on CD and can't say it ever occurred to me that the song was running slower or faster between any of those versions.

7 seconds is a big difference. If it's true.
Just looked on my server, and it's a 5 second difference, 4:34 on three of them, and 4:39 on two others.
The vinyl releases comply with the shorter timing.

[Macca]

They had UHQR vinyl for sale in the MCRU room at the NW Audio Show last month.

I was stood there looking at it in wonder, and someone behind me says '£180? Is the sticker wrong? That's meant to be £18 - surely?'

[Macca]

Just looked on my server, and it's a 5 second difference, 4:34 on three of them, and 4:39 on two others.
The vinyl releases comply with the shorter timing.

4.38 on the Master Tape but some are saying the UHQR is 4.31 ? Which would make it faster, all very confusing.

[Macca]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWm6lfMFGHA

Aside from the obvious drawbacks of low bitrate etc I sometimes find that checking one of the YouTubers' rips of an album can help. In the section from 5m35s the cymbals are like a hairspray (this guy has a VPI deck and arm). Doesn't answer your question of what to do, but reaffirms that you can believe in your own ears and system.

Just had a listen to that albeit on my laptop speakers - although it is a brand new laptop and the speakers are okay if you don't need bass - and it all sounds fine to me, within the limits of a made in 1976 fairly busy mix. And I don't notice the tune running either too slow or too fast either. Sounds fine.

I only listened to the CD yesterday on my main system. Which also sounds fine.

[Stratmangler]

4.38 on the Master Tape but some are saying the UHQR is 4.31 ? Which would make it faster, all very confusing.
I haven't heard the UHQR, so I'm in no position to comment.

It could be that there was a difference in Longitudinal SMPTE, something that would most definitely been in use at the time to ensure that tape machines ran at the correct speed, where tapes intended for use in a territory with say 50Hz mains frequency, and 60Hz mains frequency got mixed up, and nearly 50 years later the issue shows itself.

I first heard of SMPTE listening to Sheik Yerbouti (it's mentioned in Jones Crusher), and it's only in the last few minutes that I've been looking it up on't tinterweb.

US uses a frame rate of 30fps, Europe uses 25fps.

[Macca]

I first heard of SMPTE listening to Sheik Yerbouti
.

Yes, me too.

[Macca]

I haven't heard the UHQR, so I'm in no position to comment.

It could be that there was a difference in Longitudinal SMPTE, something that would most definitely been in use at the time to ensure that tape machines ran at the correct speed, where tapes intended for use in a territory with say 50Hz mains frequency, and 60Hz mains frequency got mixed up, and nearly 50 years later the issue shows itself.
.

It's plausible.

[Firebottle]

PM sent

[Phil Lawton]

PM sent

Replied, mate.

[Phil Lawton]

Just tried this on my neighbour’s system. Cheap and cheerful vintage Sony turntable.

I’ll cut to the chase…the record was fine. Yes, the hats are a little hot on “Caves Of Altamira”, but there was ZERO distortion.

It’s an issue with my gear - an issue with my gear and I don’t know where to start to resolve it.

Just marvellous.

[Ali Tait]

Have you got a decent protractor?

[Pigmy Pony]

Just tried this on my neighbour’s system. Cheap and cheerful vintage Sony turntable.

I’ll cut to the chase…the record was fine. Yes, the hats are a little hot on “Caves Of Altamira”, but there was ZERO distortion.

It’s an issue with my gear - an issue with my gear and I don’t know where to start to resolve it.

Just marvellous.

I really did think the problem was going to be with the pressing, especially as you mentioned in the first post that others had experienced the same issue. Are you sure your neighbour's system, particularly his "cheap and cheerful" vintage Sony turntable, is resolving enough?

Just as your cartridge/stylus will be capable of pulling information from the grooves that a "lesser" set up will miss, could your set up not also be retrieving nasties too?

I can't help thinking that if your cartridge set up was that bad it would have been obvious before now with other recordings.

[Macca]

How many hours on the stylus? Over 250 and its probably degraded.

[Phil Lawton]

Probably close to 150…supposed to be a thousand before it needs changing.

I’m going to take both turntable and album to my tech guy when I get back from Wales next week.

[Phil Lawton]

***UPDATE***

Looks like the issue is with my Clearaudio.

Tried the Dan UHQR on a Rega at my tech guy's shop - not a whisper of the distortion I experience on my own turntable, which is what I found when testing the record on my neighbour's Sony deck..

No change after he'd serviced the deck, either - he said that he thinks the anti-skate isn't working. The magnets that govern the latter both seem to be doing their jobs, which is what I told Clearaudio when I got in touch with them. They think the issue might be the arm bearing, so I'm now awaiting Clearaudio's recommended UK agent (AMVA) to get back to me with a quote to replace the same.

An internet search tells me that bearing could be as much as £500; add that to labour charges and carriage back and forth from me and AMVA in London E7 and the cost could approach £1k.

Not sure if it's worth spending that on a deck as old as this one (circa 2005) or whether I should use the cash (that I don't have, in reality) on another deck.

Rather a pisser, as the Archbishop of Canterbury might have put it.

[Macca]

If the arm bearing is the issue - which seems unlikely to me - why is there not a problem with other records you play on it? Why just this one?

I'd get a new stylus for the cartridge first. I know you said it only has 150 hours but you'll need a new one eventually anyway and it would eliminate a variable that hasn't been tested yet.

[Pigmy Pony]

An internet search tells me that bearing could be as much as £500; add that to labour charges and carriage back and forth from me and AMVA in London E7 and the cost could approach £1k.



You can get the whole arm for less than that (just).

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChsSEwiTubmSw9qPAxWvklAGHbZqOBMYACICCAEQEBoCZG c&co=1&ase=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjw8p7GBhCjARIsAEhghZ3PJpMX9rrN62LhQIQF pCpw7XFHNG4YKPcxv9EGZdxo0b1thTntsx0aAnLrEALw_wcB&cce=2&category=acrcp_v1_32&sig=AOD64_0xzUdgE_PUIi3Q3UxkwHVplFxmUQ&ctype=5&q=&nis=4&ved=2ahUKEwi_gbOSw9qPAxU6Q0EAHfUNN9oQ9aACKAB6BAgHE EA&adurl=

Oops, sorry, that's not the same arm! Please ignore.

[Mikeandvan]

Just bought this LP today, I'm a recent Steely convert, an 80s pressing on MCA, absolutely fine, £15 off the bay, nr mint.

[Phil Lawton]

Just bought this LP today, I'm a recent Steely convert, an 80s pressing on MCA, absolutely fine, £15 off the bay, nr mint.

The issue wasn't with every pressing of the album, but rather the recent UHQR pressing.

By the way, if you don't fancy shelling out £180 for the UHQR version, then the VIM-4040 Japanese pressing is effing awesome.

[helma]

What cartridge are you using, or perhaps more importantly what's the stylus profile on it and what was the stylus profile on the turntables that played the record fine? I think it's possible it's still really the record that is at fault, especially since a lot of people seem to be having issues, but it's something that gets picked up by only some stylus profiles. Like something in the groove that a blunter elliptical or a conical just sails through but which throws some carts with sharper profiles into a frenzy? If it was your arm bearings, you'd think this issue would show up with some other record too.

If it was simply difficult to track, then you'd imagine more people would have issues and some random Sony of a neighbor wouldn't just sail through it, unless he happens to use a highish compliance MM cartridge with some fancy tip. I have one particularly hot cut record which has some incredibly loud percussion that only high compliance MMs with line contact profiles are able to track cleanly, and honestly even they can manage it just barely.

If you have music with lots of loud brass instruments on it, do those sound fine? I mean with loud brass that's drilling an ice pick into your brain it might sometimes be hard to tell... but hot cut brass is something a lot of setups will have problems tracking.

I don't think simple alignment or antiskate will fix mistracking as severe as you describe, if it is indeed mistracking. When the white noise happens, does it come from both speakers or does it stay localized to where the hihat was coming from?

[Phil Lawton]

What cartridge are you using, or perhaps more importantly what's the stylus profile on it and what was the stylus profile on the turntables that played the record fine? I think it's possible it's still really the record that is at fault, especially since a lot of people seem to be having issues, but it's something that gets picked up by only some stylus profiles. Like something in the groove that a blunter elliptical or a conical just sails through but which throws some carts with sharper profiles into a frenzy? If it was your arm bearings, you'd think this issue would show up with some other record too.

If it was simply difficult to track, then you'd imagine more people would have issues and some random Sony of a neighbor wouldn't just sail through it, unless he happens to use a highish compliance MM cartridge with some fancy tip. I have one particularly hot cut record which has some incredibly loud percussion that only high compliance MMs with line contact profiles are able to track cleanly, and honestly even they can manage it just barely.

If you have music with lots of loud brass instruments on it, do those sound fine? I mean with loud brass that's drilling an ice pick into your brain it might sometimes be hard to tell... but hot cut brass is something a lot of setups will have problems tracking.

I don't think simple alignment or antiskate will fix mistracking as severe as you describe, if it is indeed mistracking. When the white noise happens, does it come from both speakers or does it stay localized to where the hihat was coming from?


I use an Ortofon 2M Bronze.

Not only did the "random Sony of a neighbour sail through", but so did my tech guy's Rega RP8, loaded with the same cart.

I have a heap of Miles Davis albums and they all sound fine.

The "white noise" appears to be centred around the hi-hats.

[Phil Lawton]

Sorted this in a radical fashion…my Clearaudio Emotion is still in Germany having teh arm bearing replaced, but in its absence, I’ve bought a Clearaudio Concept Signature.

It’s a total beast…and plays the Steely Dan UHQRs flawlessly.

Might be a bit of a sledgehammer/peanut solution, but I was wanting to upgrade anyhow.