View Full Version : New Audiolab (John Westlake) Dac demo
Just got back from Bartletts in North London this afternoon. spent a couple of hours listening to the new Audiolab CD/DAC/PRE with John and it sounded awesome. It was a world apart form the Arcam Rdac and the Musical Fidelity (not sure of the model - £400) we compared it to. Not a hint of digital harshness, controlled and sophisticated, wonderfully black and smooth but with stacks of detail. It was just very analogue and made the other dacs sound incredibly trashy.
Ali Tait
29-09-2010, 16:45
Sounds interesting!
Paul, as a Caiman owner I was curious on how it compared with this forum's favourite DAC. I've been following this with interest as John W. is about to release the MDAC with features analogue inputs and a remote, not to mention killer sound at a very reasobnable price. If you've listened to a Caiman long enough to make a valid judgement, your impressions would be welcome. Thanks!
You just described the sound I've been looking for!
Paul if you're talking about the model 8200CD/8200CDQ with the 32-bit ESS Sabre dac and async USB, then it sounds very interesting indeed! There's a lot value there for the price and sound you're describing.
http://www.andygilesassociates.co.uk/cms/pdf/press_280.pdf
Any chance there will be a US/Japan voltage version?
Paul, as a Caiman owner I was curious on how it compared with this forum's favourite DAC. I've been following this with interest as John W. is about to release the MDAC with features analogue inputs and a remote, not to mention killer sound at a very reasobnable price. If you've listened to a Caiman long enough to make a valid judgement, your impressions would be welcome. Thanks!
Bill, I've never heard a Camain (I own a 7510), but Andrew who was also there yesterday runs a 7520 thats been modded up to the hilt (Tirnia spelling??) with Wolfson chip, etc. and he was just as enthusiastic/impressed as me. Bartletts thought it best to avoid people bringing personal gear unfortunately due to time constraints which is fair enough, although when i turned up after lunch it was actually very quiet (me, John and Andrew) and we spent at least 2 hours listening and chatting. We compared John's Dac to the Arcam Rdac (£300) and a music fidelity dac (not sure the model, cost £400). My understanding from previous comments on forums is that the Caiman holds up pretty well against the new Rdac until the async USB is used (think i'm right in assuming its got async usb?). The MF Dac was certainly much better than the Rdac but neither came close to John's. It was so undigital, no splash, no siblance, no scrapping fingernails down a blackboard - the other two just sounded rough, grainy and very digital. Having never really experienced a top notch vinyl presentation (i had a Rega planar 3 in the 90's but didn't use it much or pay any attention to how different it sounded to my cd player :rolleyes:) I've never really had much concept of what 'digital' really sounds like - but the demo yesterday opened my eyes somewhat :stalks:
P
Paul if you're talking about the model 8200CD/8200CDQ with the 32-bit ESS Sabre dac and async USB, then it sounds very interesting indeed! There's a lot value there for the price and sound you're describing.
http://www.andygilesassociates.co.uk/cms/pdf/press_280.pdf
Any chance there will be a US/Japan voltage version?
James, it was the 8200CDQ we listened to i think - CD player/Dac/Pre. John reckons the first batch to arrive will be even better than what we heard yesterday as he's ordered a few final tweaks since the model we had was bought over. He opened it up and we took a look inside and I reckon you're certainly getting a lot of bang for your buck. If you don't need a cd player the MDac - (Dac and digital Pre only, which is slightly better than analogue pre as john demonstrated yesterday) - will be shipping apparently :rolleyes: in feb of next year and priced at £400-450. That's what I'll probably wait for. There's various filters to play around with, although one was clearly better than the others, and various other nice features - remote controlling the dac from itunes or vice versa, or something like that :scratch:
I'm not sure about the US/Japan voltage version. You'll have to contact John or maybe speak to Bartletts as they'll be importing them.
Andrews comments from yesterday, courtesy of PFM:
First of all, many thanks to Bartletts for being so gracious to host such an event and many thanks to John Westlake for offering his time and considerable effort.
It was a really fun event and we enjoyed meeting and chatting with John, his wife and his dog Bobby (yes I had a brief chat with a Chihuahua, he's very intelligent). Also I enjoyed meeting TimR and spur07.
The CDQ was connected via its onboard pre-amp into a Bryston power amp, but had some problems with the first set of loudspeakers. I asked for these to be replaced with a pair of Dynaudio DM 2/6 on heavy Partington stands. I reckon it's fair to say that there was more than a wee bit of initial scepticism in the room that these stand mounts would make any difference over the significantly more expensive floor standers - but right from the go they delivered the kind of performance we were all hoping for.
The CDQ is an awesome CD player. Really awesome and I am not saying this to be polite. One thing that Paul (spur07) said after the demo, and he was spot-on, is that the presentation is classy, really classy and subtle. At the same time it is fun, has a lot of bounce to the presentation and reveals a lot of the intonation and how musicians work with their instruments.
We all agreed that the Optimum Transient filter is the best setting and the digital pre-amp (a 64 bit controller) is better than the analogue pre-amp. Even through the analogue pre-amp the player is awesome, but the digital pre-amp adds more dimension and clarity to the notes and voices without any nasties.
Hold your nerve, the wait will be more than worth it. We compared it with two different DACs (both recent designs) and the CDQ totally vaporised one competing DAC and provided a more involving and grander presentation than the other.
I got to say, as someone who studied electronics at degree level, went into radio and been a long standing hi-fi anorak - John's explanations about his attention to design detail was very impressive. It was also good to hear how over the long term IAG have done the right thing in supporting John and Dominik in their work and produced a product that by-rights should reach equivalent modern day levels of popularity as, say, the A&R A60.
It is a game-changing source component, that defies price points and the industry is all the better for that. I am excited and so should you!
Andrew Randle
James, it was the 8200CDQ we listened to i think - CD player/Dac/Pre. John reckons the first batch to arrive will be even better than what we heard yesterday as he's ordered a few final tweaks since the model we had was bought over. He opened it up and we took a look inside and I reckon you're certainly getting a lot of bang for your buck. If you don't need a cd player the MDac - (Dac and digital Pre only, which is slightly better than analogue pre as john demonstrated yesterday) - will be shipping apparently :rolleyes: in feb of next year and priced at £400-450. That's what I'll probably wait for. There's various filters to play around with, although one was clearly better than the others, and various other nice features - remote controlling the dac from itunes or vice versa, or something like that :scratch:
I'm not sure about the US/Japan voltage version. You'll have to contact John or maybe speak to Bartletts as they'll be importing them.
Thanks for your reply Paul.
Well, it certainly is an interesting unit! If I got one it would be with the CD player and I would sell my dac to simplify things. Maybe by sometime next year there will be a 110v version out there. Would be nice.
I guess in the next few months we'll be seeing more listening impressions as more people pick up this player.
Peter Stockwell
30-09-2010, 13:12
- remote controlling the dac from itunes or vice versa, or something like that :scratch:
Oh shit, that'll do me in, if that's possible!
I'm still waiting for this stand alone dac John Westlake is developing.
Sounds great, but was it being compared against the async USB input on the rDac? If you were using any other input then the comparison is somewhat unfair.
technobear
01-10-2010, 06:49
I'm still waiting for this stand alone dac John Westlake is developing.
It will probably be called the Audiolab MDAC. It should be available in February and you can read all about it here: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=83778
It's a lengthy thread but contains a lot of great info from John Westlake.
The MDAC is basically the DAC part of the 8200CD in a smaller case with an external PSU.
I believe there is also a full size 8200DQ on the way which is the DAC and preamp without the CD drive.
Ali Tait
01-10-2010, 06:52
Sounds great, but was it being compared against the async USB input on the rDac? If you were using any other input then the comparison is somewhat unfair.
Good question.
Sounds great, but was it being compared against the async USB input on the rDac? If you were using any other input then the comparison is somewhat unfair.
Indeed, that is a caveat. The source was a CD player so a USB was not used (just SPDIF) - although it should be noted both the Rdac and the Audiolab have async USB, not sure about the MF. (A laptop was present, but it wasn't used when I was there.) Tbh, the diference between the Rdac and the other two was night and day.
Covenant
01-10-2010, 09:04
Perhaps the most interesting comparison would be the new Audiolab against the Caiman with the discrete output stage.
I would be willing to travel a considerable distance to hear that!
StanleyB
01-10-2010, 10:14
Perhaps the most interesting comparison would be the new Audiolab against the Caiman with the discrete output stage.
I would be willing to travel a considerable distance to hear that!
Don't travel;). The Caiman was a response to the V-DAC and DacMagic.
The rDAC and the MDAC will get their own response in due course:eyebrows:.
I hope to either get one on loan or buy one, if the price is right, to see how it compares against whatever I am working on.
Covenant
01-10-2010, 10:18
Your a teaser Stan!:lol:
Ali Tait
01-10-2010, 10:29
Yeah,spill the beans Stan! When's your super-dooper dac coming out??
StanleyB
01-10-2010, 10:44
Yeah,spill the beans Stan! When's your super-dooper dac coming out??
I don't know when my super duper DAC is coming out. A lot of work still needs to be done on that one:ner:. But I guess you mean when my next DAC is out? I have put R&D on slow go whilst waiting for the rDAC and MDAC to be released first. I want to make sure that audio quality wise we are all in the same league, with primarily price difference to be worried about by the paying public. Could be a long hot 2011 summer :eyebrows:.
Ali Tait
01-10-2010, 11:12
Fair enough! I guess we'll be amonst the first to know.
TopBalcony
01-10-2010, 17:41
Perhaps the most interesting comparison would be the new Audiolab against the Caiman with the discrete output stage.
I would be willing to travel a considerable distance to hear that!
Someone else here who would love to hear a comparison against the passive Beresford. I had been thinking of pre-ordering the Audiolab but JW's reported comments about further mods have put me off..seems odd that something that took so long to get to market gets tweaked almost before it arrives.
I don't know when my super duper DAC is coming out. A lot of work still needs to be done on that one:ner:. But I guess you mean when my next DAC is out? I have put R&D on slow go whilst waiting for the rDAC and MDAC to be released first. I want to make sure that audio quality wise we are all in the same league, with primarily price difference to be worried about by the paying public. Could be a long hot 2011 summer :eyebrows:.
Stan, the MDAC has everything on my wish list: remote, analog inputs, balanced outputs and killer sound at a reasonable price. If you can come up with something similar that would be great, because it's nice to have a choice!
technobear
01-10-2010, 22:15
Stan, the MDAC has everything on my wish list: remote, analog inputs, balanced outputs and killer sound at a reasonable price...
...and ASYNCHRONOUS USB, mustn't forget that :eyebrows:
Non-asynch USB DACs are as good as dead. The rDAC is leading the way and the MDAC will be the killer blow :)
StanleyB
01-10-2010, 22:23
I am sure the MDAC will satisfy many happy owners with its wide selection of features :). I am more into the audio reproduction side of things, as most of my mods topics show.
StanleyB
01-10-2010, 22:37
...and ASYNCHRONOUS USB, mustn't forget that :eyebrows:
Non-asynch USB DACs are as good as dead. The rDAC is leading the way and the MDAC will be the killer blow :)
Why? I was reading a very god topic on that subject HERE (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/493152/low-jitter-usb-dan-lavry-michael-goodman-adaptive-asynchronous) that covers the same things that I have been saying about the async bandwagon. Well worth a read.
The techniques I have used in my implementation of USB have shown that it is extremely hard to tell any difference between a PC connected to the DAC via USB, or via the optical ( or coax) input. MAC users with both types of inputs can concur. It's the max 48KHz limit of the most readily available chips that has been the limiting commercial factor of USB audio for the masses. But companies have been working on higher frequency USB audio chips. It's just that they have not been in bed with the right audio equipment manufacturers who would have better experience in bringing the right launch product in their own design to the market.
...and ASYNCHRONOUS USB, mustn't forget that :eyebrows:
Non-asynch USB DACs are as good as dead. The rDAC is leading the way and the MDAC will be the killer blow :)
You can also control your itunes via the Mdac with the remote, or something like that.
Stan, that's an interesting point in the article you linked to re transmission vs conversion jitter.
StanleyB
02-10-2010, 07:47
s far as I know, I have been writing about on AoS long before anyone else dared to mention the obvious faults with async USB. I referred that that particular problem as the padded bits attached to a async transmitted file section in order to make the checksum add up correctly.
When an 'inventor' hikes around various forum to sell the merits of his invention, flags should have been waved up. Luckily, not all of us are asleep on the job :).
When an 'inventor' hikes around various forum to sell the merits of his invention, flags should have been waved up. Luckily, not all of us are asleep on the job :).
Are you referring to John Westlake?
Are you referring to John Westlake?
More likely Gordon Rankin.
More likely Gordon Rankin.
Who's he?
More likely Gordon Rankin.
Anyway, it looks like he means John Westlake as the thread is about him and his product.
TopBalcony
02-10-2010, 18:23
It would be interesting to see the response to Stan's comments, were they posted on the Squeezebox forum. There are some pretty knowledgeable guys on there who seem to think that anything other than asynch usb is pants. I'm just a layman and have no idea either way, but would be interested to hear from anyone who has tried the Beresford with the USB output from the Touch (and compared this with SPDIF).
Vincent Kars
02-10-2010, 19:05
More likely Gordon Rankin.
Asynchronous USB is around for a long time.
Companies like Tascam and EMU had async USB for years.
But they where targeting the pro-market.
Gordon Rankin developed his own async USB interface and start talking about it at AudioAsylum. Then Ayre’s Charles Hansen licensed the code and produced the QB9.
So Gordon Ranking is the one who made async USB salonfähig.
http://www.usbdacs.com/Concept/Concept.html
Today he even offers USB class audio 2 driver allowing you to play 24/176 and 24/192 using WIN. OSX 10.6.4 and recent Linux already support class 2 natively.
There are a lot of DACs not even being class1 (24/96) compliant.
This is by a large a matter of using a cheap adaptive mode drop-in chip.
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/USB.html
Recent announcements:
•Audiolab announces CDplayer+DAC with asynchronous USB input
•Classe announces pre-amp with asynchronous USB input
•Arcam DAC with 96kHz asynchronous USB
Obvious async is gaining momentum.
If your business is supplying adaptive mode USB solutions, this trend won’t make you happy at all.
Check the Design Philosophy at this page: http://centrance.com/products/dacport/
If you can’t beat them, discredit them?
technobear
02-10-2010, 20:25
...would be interested to hear from anyone who has tried the Beresford with the USB output from the Touch (and compared this with SPDIF).
There is no USB output from the Touch.
Ali Tait
02-10-2010, 20:49
I think there's a software fix to make the usb an output.
squeezethatbuffalo
03-10-2010, 03:42
I think there's a software fix to make the usb an output.
Yep, John Swenson posted specific instructions on the Touch Forums (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82110), seems simple enough. I don't have any USB DACs though, so I can't verify that it works.
Ali Tait
03-10-2010, 06:13
Ditto.
technobear
03-10-2010, 08:51
Wow! Now that is very interesting. Does it support asynchronous mode?
I guess it's not so surprising as the Touch is a small Linux computer. It might struggle if you wanted USB output and an attached hard drive at the same time. I wonder if anyone has tried it.
Remember - it's not WHAT you use, but HOW YOU USE IT........ ;)
There is no USB output from the Touch.
Yes there is.... ;)
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82040
*EDIT*
DOH! beaten to it.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.