Getting tired of bass boom

[Mikeandvan]

Love the Lintons but am really gettnig tired of the bass boom. I happened upon a smaller version of these heritiage series, what do you think?

https://www.wharfedale.co.uk/super-denton/

And these

https://www.wharfedale.co.uk/denton-85/

[Pigmy Pony]

But if the Dentons excite the same room modes, where do you go from there?

Rather than losing a shitload of money from selling your Lintons (which I'm assuming you don't even have the original boxes for anymore), why not:

1. Bung the ports to calm the bass output

2. Integrate a sub into your system. This will give you a degree of control in the bass dept.

I do feel we've had this conversation before, time for a different approach maybe. How about getting some eq going, a graphic equaliser or something, see if you can put a dip in the annoying bass frequencies.

[Lawrence001]

Home demo is the only option to avoid continual losses if you buy new. So find a dealer that will let you do it.

[Barry]

Are you sure you are not exciting a room resonance?

[Ali Tait]

Try some socks in the ports as a start, see how it goes.

[Mikeandvan]

Are you sure you are not exciting a room resonance?

I don't know, let me ask it.

[Mikeandvan]

But if the Dentons excite the same room modes, where do you go from there?

Rather than losing a shitload of money from selling your Lintons (which I'm assuming you don't even have the original boxes for anymore), why not:

1. Bung the ports to calm the bass output

2. Integrate a sub into your system. This will give you a degree of control in the bass dept.

I do feel we've had this conversation before, time for a different approach maybe. How about getting some eq going, a graphic equaliser or something, see if you can put a dip in the annoying bass frequencies.

Darn, I've just done that thing with the socks and it works! Don't know how it work in the long run though.

[Ali Tait]

You can experiment stuffing the ports with straws cut to various lengths to adjust bass to suit.

[Mikeandvan]

You can experiment stuffing the ports with straws cut to various lengths to adjust bass to suit.

Yeh was thinking that, with the socks in the bass is clearer, not so bloomy, but overall not sure it makes everything a bit more strident.

[Mikeandvan]

Took the socks out, didn't like it overall. Next. Equalizer?

[Lawrence001]

That's one option, do you have a tape loop in the Suggie? There's also mini dsp and DACs with built in parametric EQ.

[Pigmy Pony]

Yeh was thinking that, with the socks in the bass is clearer, not so bloomy, but overall not sure it makes everything a bit more strident.

I'm betting the 'stridency' you hear will be down to the reduced bass output bringing the mid and upper frequencies to the fore. Have you tried bunging just one of the ports, or perhaps experimenting with lighter 'bung' materials? You might just find a middle ground you can live with while researching eq options.

[Mikeandvan]

I'm betting the 'stridency' you hear will be down to the reduced bass output bringing the mid and upper frequencies to the fore. Have you tried bunging just one of the ports, or perhaps experimenting with lighter 'bung' materials? You might just find a middle ground you can live with while researching eq options.

Yeh I was thinking that too, similar to the Audionote speakers I had once, so bass light.

[Mikeandvan]

That's one option, do you have a tape loop in the Suggie? There's also mini dsp and DACs with built in parametric EQ.

Pre amp and tape loop inputs, I currently use the tape for my headphone amp.

[Lawrence001]

Yeh I was thinking that too, similar to the Audionote speakers I had once, so bass light.I've solved this by getting a flat piece of foam and cutting a length so that it folds around the outer rim of the port and makes it effectively smaller, raising the resonant frequency of the port above the room node. The size of effective port depends on the thickness of the foam so you can experiment but I didn't go that far.

[Mikeandvan]

Any ideas on what EQ to go for? Would like to try this before I consider smaller speakers from the Wharfedale heritage range.

[hifinutt]

Darn, I've just done that thing with the socks and it works! Don't know how it work in the long run though.

had my evoke 30 bunged almost since i bought them , sounds superb

iso pucks and auva isolators can help too

[Pigmy Pony]

I've solved this by getting a flat piece of foam and cutting a length so that it folds around the outer rim of the port and makes it effectively smaller, raising the resonant frequency of the port above the room node. The size of effective port depends on the thickness of the foam so you can experiment but I didn't go that far.

That sounds like a good idea, but I see the Lintons' ports are quite small, so the foam would have to be super thin. Could be a very cheap upgrade.

[Barry]

Mike could always try using some of the Victoria sponge he has just baked. ;)

[Pigmy Pony]

Mike could always try using some of the Victoria sponge he has just baked. ;)

:D Or bake a load and stack them in the corners of the room. Edible bass traps! could be a market there :) If they don't work all is not lost.

[mbic]

Yuk, ported enclosures!
As as already been said: block up the ports and buy a sealed box sub woofer 8” drive unit……audio nirvana.

[Macca]

I still think the problem is that amplifier,

[Lawrence001]

Possible if the speakers are a tricky load ie. very low impedance at low frequencies. Do any reviews have the curve?

[Barry]

Possible if the speakers are a tricky load ie. very low impedance at low frequencies. Do any reviews have the curve?

Yes, the review by Audio Science Review shows the EPDR (Equivalent Peak Dissipation Resistance) for the Wharfedale Linton has a minimum value of 1.7Ohm at 90Hz.

This might be a problematic load for the Sugden amplifier.

[Pigmy Pony]

I think it has been suggested before that an amp with more welly should control the bass better, but Mike seems to be attached to the Sugden. My MF amp I think will drive pretty much anything with ease and didn't cost much (£550).

[Mikeandvan]

ok new amp it is then.

[Ali Tait]

You could try a Fosi as a cheap way of finding out if it is the amp.

[Mikeandvan]

You could try a Fosi as a cheap way of finding out if it is the amp.

wassat

[Ali Tait]

https://fosiaudio.com/

Loads about them online.

[mbic]

If it is the amp, why not take them in to a dealer and try them with a different amp? Or buy another amp from a local dealer preferably on a sale or return basis, I think they still exist!
You can by port tuning devices, have a look on the net.

[Mikeandvan]

If it is the amp, why not take them in to a dealer and try them with a different amp? Or buy another amp from a local dealer preferably on a sale or return basis, I think they still exist!

I've no idea what amp to buy, its been ages since I bought new equipment, like 25 years ago.

[Macca]

Go down Richer Sound and get a Yamaha A-S701.

They'll let you trial it and take it back if no good but it will not have any problems with yours - or any - speakers.

They sell the Fosi Ali mentioned which is a lot cheaper and would probably also do the job but I'm not 100 percent about that. But again they'll let you try it.

[Macca]

Before you do anything what are the dimensions of your room (feet and inches please not that metric stuff)?

We can then see where the main modes are and compare that to what the loudspeakers are doing.

It might be a room problem but from your pics the room does not look small or square so I still suspect it is because the Sugden amp cannot control the low frequencies. I really have never understood the popularity of those amps especially given the price of them, but I suppose with some little Harbeths or LS3/5A or similar they will be fine.

[Mikeandvan]

It is about 14ft square, or 14 by 15 ft, with a small annex (kitchen) about 5ft square.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54469818970_9896c9dd37_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54469464346_0b2da0af38_z.jpg

[Mikeandvan]

Go down Richer Sound and get a Yamaha A-S701.

They'll let you trial it and take it back if no good but it will not have any problems with yours - or any - speakers.

They sell the Fosi Ali mentioned which is a lot cheaper and would probably also do the job but I'm not 100 percent about that. But again they'll let you try it.

Sounds like a plan.

[Barry]

It is about 14ft square, or 14 by 15 ft, with a small annex (kitchen) about 5ft square.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54469818970_9896c9dd37_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54469464346_0b2da0af38_z.jpg

Given your quoted dimensions, there are axial modes at 75.3Hz and at 80.7Hz that can be excited in your room.

[Macca]

Smaller than I thought and almost square - that could be the issue.

You can get speakers that roll off sharply below 100Hz but you will sacrifice some bass. Maybe look at getting something that has parametric EQ and dial down those peaks?

[Mikeandvan]

Thanks gents, but no idea what axial modes or parametric EQ are.

[Mikeandvan]

Given your quoted dimensions, there are axial modes at 75.3Hz and at 80.7Hz that can be excited in your room.

Not sure what that means, but thanks. How did you work it out?

[Mikeandvan]

Smaller than I thought and almost square - that could be the issue.

You can get speakers that roll off sharply below 100Hz but you will sacrifice some bass. Maybe look at getting something that has parametric EQ and dial down those peaks?

I'd rather sacrifice the bass as now all its doing is smearing the music.

[Barry]

Thanks gents, but no idea what axial modes or parametric EQ are.

They are room resonances. I asked in a previous post if you (or rather your speakers) were exciting a room resonance and your reply was a sarcastic "I haven't asked it".

Well your speakers are exciting room resonances, several in fact; the axial modes are the most serious, and these resonances cause peaks and troughs in the bass response of your speakers. The peaks are what you perceive as 'bass boom'.

A parametric EQ is essentially an elaborate set of tone controls, where you can cut or boost the frequency response of your system over a narrow frequency range. Thus they can tame the above mentioned peaks causing bass boom.

[Mikeandvan]

They are room resonances. I asked in a previous post if you (or rather your speakers) were exciting a room resonance and your reply was a sarcastic "I haven't asked it".

Well your speakers are exciting room resonances, several in fact; the axial modes are the most serious, and these resonances cause peaks and troughs in the bass response of your speakers. The peaks are what you perceive as 'bass boom'.

A parametric EQ is essentially an elaborate set of tone controls, where you can cut or boost the frequency response of your system over a narrow frequency range. Thus they can tame the above mentioned peaks causing bass boom.

Thanks Barry, no sarcasm intended. So I get a graphic equaliser?

[Barry]

I would ask Martin for his advice, as he has had more experience in using graphic equaliser.

Whilst I do have a graphic equaliser to hand, I found its use frustrating: I was constantly fiddling with controls without finding a satisfactory setting. In the end I removed it with no sense of loss. My device is a 30 way analogue equaliser, whereas Martin's graphic equaliser operates in the digital domain and from what he has reported appears to be more subtle and precise in practice.

[Macca]

Thanks Barry, no sarcasm intended. So I get a graphic equaliser?

problem with an analogue EQ is it might not have the specific frequency bands that you need to cut.

Something like Wiim Pro or Pro Plus has digital parametric EQ which lets you cut or boost exactly where you need to. There's more expensive options but a pro plus is about £220

Have a read of this:

https://www.blog.wiimhome.com/post/how-to-use-parametric-eq-a-comprehensive-guide

[mbic]

Speaking from experience try a small sealed enclosure subwoofer.

[Mikeandvan]

problem with an analogue EQ is it might not have the specific frequency bands that you need to cut.

Something like Wiim Pro or Pro Plus has digital parametric EQ which lets you cut or boost exactly where you need to. There's more expensive options but a pro plus is about £220

Have a read of this:

https://www.blog.wiimhome.com/post/how-to-use-parametric-eq-a-comprehensive-guide

So which 'Wiim' product do I need??

[Mikeandvan]

Speaking from experience try a small sealed enclosure subwoofer.

Does that stop the bass coming out of my main speakers then?

[Lawrence001]

Have you ever used Google Mike?

[Pigmy Pony]

Have you ever used Google Mike?

:lol: To be fair, I'd be inclined to go with Martin's suggestion, get the WiiM Pro Plus, and follow the included book of words. That way he should be able to accurately target the offending bass frequencies.

[Macca]

So which 'Wiim' product do I need??

Go to Richer Sounds in Brighton - ideally on a weekday morning when the place isn't full of muppets buying televisions and the staff are just hanging about. Explain you want to integrate PEQ into your system with a Wiim.

They'll talk you through the options and how to connect it and use it.

[Mikeandvan]

:lol: To be fair, I'd be inclined to go with Martin's suggestion, get the WiiM Pro Plus, and follow the included book of words. That way he should be able to accurately target the offending bass frequencies.

I don't get it, Google (my friend) tells me that the Wim pro plus is a music streamer.

[Pigmy Pony]

I don't get it, Google (my friend) tells me that the Wim pro plus is a music streamer.

It is. If you like, think of it as a parametric equaliser with a free music streamer chucked in :) As Martin suggests, go to Richer Sounds and they will help you make sense of it all. I'm actually quite tempted myself.

[Mikeandvan]

It is. If you like, think of it as a parametric equaliser with a free music streamer chucked in :) As Martin suggests, go to Richer Sounds and they will help you make sense of it all. I'm actually quite tempted myself.

I'm just wondering how it works with all the inputs etc.

[Barry]

Is there a tape loop facility on your Sugden amp? If there is, you connect the amplifier Tape outputs to the WiiM inputs, and the Tape inputs to the WiiM output sockets.

[Mikeandvan]

Is there a tape loop facility on your Sugden amp? If there is, you connect the amplifier Tape outputs to the WiiM inputs, and the Tape inputs to the WiiM output sockets.

Yes there is, so the Wiim goes into the Suggie, and then controls the Suggie? That is you can control the sound of the Suggie through the Wiim, rather than just what goes through the Wiim (i.e. streaming).

[Macca]

Is there a tape loop facility on your Sugden amp? If there is, you connect the amplifier Tape outputs to the WiiM inputs, and the Tape inputs to the WiiM output sockets.

No - You run your sources into the Wiim, do whatever FR adjustments you want to, then out to the amplifier. If you use the tape loop you are inserting an AD/DA stage for no reason.

It is a streamer also but whether you use that or not the primary purpose here is to be able to do some parametric EQ to solve the bass boom and the Wiim would seem to be the cheapest available option for that.

[Mikeandvan]

No - You run your sources into the Wiim, do whatever FR adjustments you want to, then out to the amplifier. If you use the tape loop you are inserting an AD/DA stage for no reason.

It is a streamer also but whether you use that or not the primary purpose here is to be able to do some parametric EQ to solve the bass boom and the Wiim would seem to be the cheapest available option for that.

Ah ok, it only has one line in though.

[Macca]

Ah ok, it only has one line in though.

The Pro version has line in and optical in, I don't know about the others. Connect your CD player via optical, turntable via line.

[Mikeandvan]

The Pro version has line in and optical in, I don't know about the others. Connect your CD player via optical, turntable via line.

thats an option

[Mikeandvan]

The Pro version has line in and optical in, I don't know about the others. Connect your CD player via optical, turntable via line.

Actually I can't see any optical in.

[Pigmy Pony]

Right there on the back, calling itself SPDIF.

https://www.hifix.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/products-53481-3.jpg

[Barry]

And what if you have more than one coaxial source, such as a turntable and a tuner. Also who is to say an optical connection from a CD player is any better than a coaxial connection?

[Macca]

And what if you have more than one coaxial source, such as a turntable and a tuner. Also who is to say an optical connection from a CD player is any better than a coaxial connection?

Get a switching box? I think Mike only has CD and Turntable and the music streamer will do radio anyway.

Coax and optical are functionally the same thing, wouldn't be my first worry. Sort out the boomy bass first!

[Barry]

Fair enough!
Can you preset the centre frequencies of the parametric EQ?
There are only 10 of them shown in the advert.

[Mikeandvan]

Right there on the back, calling itself SPDIF.

https://www.hifix.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/products-53481-3.jpg

Thanks Steve. I only use a cdp and TT, I can't be bothered streaming.

[Barry]

Thanks, but it is Steve who posted the photograph. ;)

[Macca]

Fair enough!
Can you preset the centre frequencies of the parametric EQ?
There are only 10 of them shown in the advert.

I would imagine you can save multiple EQ presets, you can on my Sony and that's 35 years old.

[Pigmy Pony]

Thanks Steve. I only use a cdp and TT, I can't be bothered streaming.

Me too with my main set up, but sometimes I'll listen to radio on t'other stereo via Amazon Echo dot.

You also get Amazon Alexa for free on this WiiM, it comes with a remote with inbuilt microphone. Just say 'Alexa, play Radio Caroline' or whatever, and there you go, radio via internet FOC :) Handy for casual listening while ironing yer socks.

[Barry]

There can't be many of us who iron socks! :eyebrows:

[Pigmy Pony]

Me too with my main set up, but sometimes I'll listen to radio on t'other stereo via Amazon Echo dot.

You also get Amazon Alexa for free on this WiiM, it comes with a remote with inbuilt microphone. Just say 'Alexa, play Radio Caroline' or whatever, and there you go, radio via internet FOC :) Handy for casual listening while ironing yer socks.

I apologise for my terrible grammar - I probably should have said whilst ironing yer socks :)

[Pigmy Pony]

There can't be many of us who iron socks! :eyebrows:

A good way to quick-dry them. I'm not bothered about the wrinkles.

[Mikeandvan]

Now thinking of getting a Jap amp with tone controls, rather than all this faff

[Pigmy Pony]

Now thinking of getting a Jap amp with tone controls, rather than all this faff

Can you hear that groaning sound Mike? That's the sound of despair :ner: Only kidding, you do what you think's best :) Though I do think that if you have an amp with tone controls and you turn the bass down, you'll be sort of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

[Lawrence001]

Now thinking of getting a Jap amp with tone controls, rather than all this faffYou want my JVC then [emoji41]

[Lawrence001]

This one

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?78541-FS-JVC-A-X3-Amplifier

[Puffin]

Do you want to borrow a Yamaha remote controlled amp with tone controls? It would mean driving 20 miles to meet me half way. I will need to check that it is all ok. It was my son's and likes to dump stuff on me. As if I don't have enough.

[Pigmy Pony]

Do you want to borrow a Yamaha remote controlled amp with tone controls? It would mean driving 20 miles to meet me half way. I will need to check that it is all ok. It was my son's and likes to dump stuff on me. As if I don't have enough.

I'd take Rob up on his kind offer of help - and if it works out, you know what to be looking for. Yamaha make some nice gear.

[Lawrence001]

If he wants a Yamaha I've got this, it will compete sound wise with stereo amps costing several hundred pounds it's just cheap as it was sold as a way of adding surround sound but you can use it as a 2-channel amp just by selecting a mode called Disco bizzarely.

It has bass, treble and remote and also useful in this case a 4/8 ohm speaker impedance selector at the back. Selecting 4 ohm will help control the speakers with the low impedance in the bass.

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?78552-FS-Yamaha-DSP-E800-Amplifier-Surround-Receiver

[Mikeandvan]

Do you want to borrow a Yamaha remote controlled amp with tone controls? It would mean driving 20 miles to meet me half way. I will need to check that it is all ok. It was my son's and likes to dump stuff on me. As if I don't have enough.

That's ok but thanks a lot for the offer, I can just buy a cheapo off Ebay if I need to try one out.

[Mikeandvan]

Can you hear that groaning sound Mike? That's the sound of despair :ner: Only kidding, you do what you think's best :) Though I do think that if you have an amp with tone controls and you turn the bass down, you'll be sort of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Why? What's the difference between using tone controls on an amp or using that parametric thingy ? I also have a headphone amp that needs plugging in to the sugy, so not sure there'd be enough inputs for it all. COnfused now tbh, do I buy jap or brit? And what's the difference?

[Macca]

Why? What's the difference between using tone controls on an amp or using that parametric thingy ? I also have a headphone amp that needs plugging in to the sugy, so not sure there'd be enough inputs for it all. COnfused now tbh, do I buy jap or brit? And what's the difference?

Tone controls are pretty crude, with parametric you can deal with the exact problem frequencies instead of just turning the bass down.

[Pigmy Pony]

Ok, one more suggestion from me - take your Sugden into Richer Sounds, tell them about your concerns re. the bass boominess and the need to use your headphone amp, and see what they come up with. My money's still on the WiiM Pro Plus, but in the end they will have the knowledge and patience to see you right. A better plan than making wholesale changes to your kit which may well not work.

[Mikeandvan]

I reckon sell the Sugden, get some other amp with more oomph, and perhaps the Wiim thing.

[Mikeandvan]

Thing is which pissing amp? There's so many out there, someting British like a rega? Or Jap Yamaha, Denon whatever, what's teh difference? Arent they all the same?

[Lawrence001]

Yeah they're all the same. I've no idea why these so called "audiophiles" keep spending a fortune on fancy equipment that doesn't sound any different to the cheap stuff.

[Macca]

Thing is which pissing amp? There's so many out there, someting British like a rega? Or Jap Yamaha, Denon whatever, what's teh difference? Arent they all the same?

That JVC Lawrence is selling will do the job. You can at least find out if the Sugden's lack of power is the issue, and at low cost. If it is, you can sell the Sugden and you're quids in.

[Mikeandvan]

That JVC Lawrence is selling will do the job. You can at least find out if the Sugden's lack of power is the issue, and at low cost. If it is, you can sell the Sugden and you're quids in.

Nah, I've had a few old Jap amps, and there's always issues with them, either wobbly volume controls or one channel down, or something or other, same with any amp I guess, but I want something newer. I get the impression Brit. amps are less likely to go wrong, and easier to fix if they do. Of course buying new you wouldn't have that issue and thus open yourself to a whole cornucopia of audiophile propaganda.

[Lawrence001]

I agree vintage amps aren't for everyone. I have to say I've had issues with 70s amps but not 80s. Well actually only one and that was an Accuphase [emoji54]

[losepete]

There is a Meridian G51 Receiver on ebay at just over £500, possibly negotiable, that will certainly give you more "oomph" see https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/267111613439

[Barry]

The local (NW London) BHF charity shop has a Cambridge A1 integrated amp for sale at £40.

Coloured black, with no obvious scuffs or 'dings'. It has the usual Baxandall tone controls.

100W mean power into 8 Ohm, 200W into 4 Ohm.

If interested let me know by PM.

[Lawrence001]

The local (NW London) BHF charity shop has a Cambridge A1 integrated amp for sale at £40.

Coloured black, with no obvious scuffs or 'dings'. It has the usual Baxandall tone controls.

100W mean power into 8 Ohm, 200W into 4 Ohm.

If interested let me know by PM.That can't be RMS. Is mean power like PMPO? I didn't think Cambridge quoted those dodgy figures even in the Richer Sounds A1 days. I thought it was about 30wpc but was good for it's price.

[Barry]

There is no such thing as "RMS Power". True mean power is the product of the RMS voltage and the RMS current.

The figures I quoted were taken from the Cambridge Audio website, but they might have referred to a different amplifier.
Looking at the A1 amplifiers for sale on eBay, they all quote 20 - 30W per channel, so I was completely wrong!

Thanks for pointing this out, and my apologies for my misleading post.

[Lawrence001]

Don't most amps quote the power as xW RMS?

[Barry]

Don't most amps quote the power as xW RMS?

They often do, but they are wrong. It should be mean power as to distinguish it from peak power; the latter being misleading and intended to impress the gullible.

The terms rms power, peak power and PMPO are often applied to speaker specifications where rms power represents the average power the speaker can produce indefinitely, whereas peak power represents the short term power the speaker can produce. PMPO (Peak Music Power Output) is an ill-defined property of a speaker intended by the manufacturer to impress a potential buyer.

[Puffin]

Unless you live in a warehouse or even in the largest of rooms isn't it the case that even with lower sensitivity speakers the max watts you are going to be using is about 20w or a lot less? As Nelson Pass say the First Watt is the most important....isn't it?

[Macca]

Unless you live in a warehouse or even in the largest of rooms isn't it the case that even with lower sensitivity speakers the max watts you are going to be using is about 20w or a lot less? As Nelson Pass say the First Watt is the most important....isn't it?

Sustained peaks is the problem. Say you want 80dB average at listening position and the recording has 20dB dynamic range. You need to hit 100dB plus more for the loss due to distance from the speakers. If it's just momentary then competent amps (and a lot are not) will cope but if duration is a couple of seconds the amp could clip, and if it can't recover it will keep clipping and sound will continue to be harsh and hard even after the peak is done.

Assume a speaker with 80dB sensitivity giving 83dB with two speakers less 6 dB for listening distance - 1 watt gives 77dB, 2 watts gives you your 80db constant level.

Then it's 4 watts for 83dB, 8 for 86, 16 for 89. 32 for 92 and now the 20 watt amp is clipping and you're nowhere near the 100dB peak, for which you need about 250 watts if the peak is sustained. Not many speakers are so insensitive but even if the speaker is a more usual 86dB you still need around 60 watts per channel.

For the 20 watt amp to cope the speaker needs a sensitivity over 90dB - and bear in mind sensitivity varies with frequency, is lower in the bass, and the bass is what draws most of the power. So you will probably clip the 20 watt amp anyway unless it has excellent power regulation where it is close to doubling its power as impedance halves. Most amps can't do that regardless of price (some of Nelson Pass's amplifiers do though, interestingly enough).

I've noticed when this clipping happens that a lot of people assume that it is a problem with the recording.

[Mikeandvan]

The local (NW London) BHF charity shop has a Cambridge A1 integrated amp for sale at £40.

Coloured black, with no obvious scuffs or 'dings'. It has the usual Baxandall tone controls.

100W mean power into 8 Ohm, 200W into 4 Ohm.

If interested let me know by PM.

Thanks Barry, but I'm not interested in old amps these days, depending on the brand 20 years max (which I realise is actually quite old).

[Mikeandvan]

The Yamaha 'natural sound' might be what I need, I'll look into trialing one.

[Puffin]

Sustained peaks is the problem. Say you want 80dB average at listening position and the recording has 20dB dynamic range. You need to hit 100dB plus more for the loss due to distance from the speakers. If it's just momentary then competent amps (and a lot are not) will cope but if duration is a couple of seconds the amp could clip, and if it can't recover it will keep clipping and sound will continue to be harsh and hard even after the peak is done.

Assume a speaker with 80dB sensitivity giving 83dB with two speakers less 6 dB for listening distance - 1 watt gives 77dB, 2 watts gives you your 80db constant level.

Then it's 4 watts for 83dB, 8 for 86, 16 for 89. 32 for 92 and now the 20 watt amp is clipping and you're nowhere near the 100dB peak, for which you need about 250 watts if the peak is sustained. Not many speakers are so insensitive but even if the speaker is a more usual 86dB you still need around 60 watts per channel.

For the 20 watt amp to cope the speaker needs a sensitivity over 90dB - and bear in mind sensitivity varies with frequency, is lower in the bass, and the bass is what draws most of the power. So you will probably clip the 20 watt amp anyway unless it has excellent power regulation where it is close to doubling its power as impedance halves. Most amps can't do that regardless of price (some of Nelson Pass's amplifiers do though, interestingly enough).

I've noticed when this clipping happens that a lot of people assume that it is a problem with the recording.

I do not have enough experience to disagree with you Martin despite having had many many commercial amps and speakers over many many years. All I can say is that from an original MK A1/ NAD 3020 and other lower power amps teamed with speakers of between 80ish dB to say 86/87/90dB or whatever. I have never really taken much notice of specs for either amps or speakers and I have perhaps been lucky that I have not ever had any clipping problems or felt that what I was listening to had run out of steam and left me underwhelmed.

[Macca]

I do not have enough experience to disagree with you Martin despite having had many many commercial amps and speakers over many many years. All I can say is that from an original MK A1/ NAD 3020 and other lower power amps teamed with speakers of between 80ish dB to say 86/87/90dB or whatever. I have never really taken much notice of specs for either amps or speakers and I have perhaps been lucky that I have not ever had any clipping problems or felt that what I was listening to had run out of steam and left me underwhelmed.

The only time I've really had clipping problems at home was with an 8 watt valve amp, which soft-clipped anyway.

I did the calculations for my room and with my old speakers (90dB) 50 watts was needed to be sure I wasn't ever going to run into problems. But speakers now are 94dB so I probably could get away with a NAD 3020 :)

Most of times I've heard amps clipping has been at shows and meets where either the room was large or levels were really high - or both.

What I've outlined is only a rough guide - I didn't take into account room gain, for example. I was just illustrating how it is possible to run out of power in the right circumstances.

Rooms tend to not be big, we don't listen far away, we don't play many recordings that have 20dB of dynamic range, we don't listen at high levels - are all reasons why it's not usually an issue in the real world.

[sailor]

Changing amps can mitigate bass problems to some small extent but the boom in my experience is from the peaks and nulls that all and every room suffers from and the boom will continue pretty much regardless. Consider a peak 20dB higher than the average SPL which obviously will take much longer to decay leading to complaints of slow bass, boomy bass and one note bass.

The cure? Some absorption will help if it can be accommodated and introducing at least 2 subs to counteract the inevitable peaks and nulls formed by the long wavelengths combining in and out of phase. The idea is not to create thunderous bass but to smooth the response by reducing the peaks and filling in the nulls. Best subs for the job would be sealed boxes and have continuously variable phase adjustment. A pair of small subs that comply with the above will have a huge effect.

[Mikeandvan]

What think you this people? An old Yamaha graphic equalizer.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/146698760434

[Macca]

You can't go wrong with Yamaha.

[Barry]

I have, and used for a short time, a Klark Technik DN360 graphic equaliser. It is a 30 way 1/3 octave equaliser with a choice of a switchable +/-6dB or +/-12dB range.
The +/-12dB setting is too much, and can sound harsh, but even with the lower range I found I spent too much time fiddling with the sliders and not finding a satisfactory setting that was any real improvement over a 'flat' setting. So I removed the unit from my system.

I think Charles (sailor) is offering the best advice for you to follow.

Martin (Macca) uses a digital graphic equaliser and preamp to good effect, but I think his model is no longer made.

[Macca]

agree with the multiple subs solution but that's not for everyone, there's a lot of dialing it in involved.

As a starting point if the room is not a weird shape put the dimensions into a mode calculator and see what frequencies the main modes are at, usually one low down and another higher up.

See if the EQ unit has adjustment at those frequencies or close. If it's just one mode causing the boom that will fix it or at least reduce it enough so its no longer a big problem.

Digital PEQ is far more effective since you can dial in the exact frequency you need to reduce, and adjust the Q i.e the bandwidth over which that takes effect. If you use vinyl it does mean converting the analogue signal to digital. That puts a lot of people off the idea on principle (in reality it isn't audible).

[Mikeandvan]

Changing amps can mitigate bass problems to some small extent but the boom in my experience is from the peaks and nulls that all and every room suffers from and the boom will continue pretty much regardless. Consider a peak 20dB higher than the average SPL which obviously will take much longer to decay leading to complaints of slow bass, boomy bass and one note bass.

The cure? Some absorption will help if it can be accommodated and introducing at least 2 subs to counteract the inevitable peaks and nulls formed by the long wavelengths combining in and out of phase. The idea is not to create thunderous bass but to smooth the response by reducing the peaks and filling in the nulls. Best subs for the job would be sealed boxes and have continuously variable phase adjustment. A pair of small subs that comply with the above will have a huge effect.

Thanks Charles, afraid I'm an absolute ignoramus so you'll have to bear with me, but what is 'continuously variable phase adjustment' when it comes to subs?

[Lawrence001]

Thanks Charles, afraid I'm an absolute ignoramus so you'll have to bear with me, but what is 'continuously variable phase adjustment' when it comes to subs?A knob rather than a switch for 0/180 degs

[Mikeandvan]

A knob rather than a switch for 0/180 degs

OK thanks Lawrence, I'm getting closer...............

[Mikeandvan]

On certain songs the drumming sounds out of phase, will this have something to do with the bass, or both caused by shitty room acoustics? I googled the 'continuously variable phase adjustment' things, isn't AI wonderful?

"Continuously variable phase adjustment on a subwoofer allows for fine-tuning the timing of the subwoofer's output relative to the main speakers, optimizing bass response and integration within a room's acoustics. This feature provides more flexibility than a simple polarity switch (0 or 180 degrees) by allowing adjustments in small increments across a range, typically 0-180 degrees. "

[Mikeandvan]

Changing amps can mitigate bass problems to some small extent but the boom in my experience is from the peaks and nulls that all and every room suffers from and the boom will continue pretty much regardless. Consider a peak 20dB higher than the average SPL which obviously will take much longer to decay leading to complaints of slow bass, boomy bass and one note bass.

The cure? Some absorption will help if it can be accommodated and introducing at least 2 subs to counteract the inevitable peaks and nulls formed by the long wavelengths combining in and out of phase. The idea is not to create thunderous bass but to smooth the response by reducing the peaks and filling in the nulls. Best subs for the job would be sealed boxes and have continuously variable phase adjustment. A pair of small subs that comply with the above will have a huge effect.

2 subs at least!! I live in a one bed flat! How much do these things cost anyway? My current speakers are Wharfedale Linton 85s.

[sailor]

On certain songs the drumming sounds out of phase, will this have something to do with the bass, or both caused by shitty room acoustics?

Hi Mike, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Life has been busy, and a stretch of dry weather gave me the chance to tackle some house maintenance.

Room acoustics will inevitably impact the sound you hear, and there are only three ways to avoid this: 1) build an anechoic chamber, 2) move your system to the middle of a rugby field, or 3) use closed-back headphones with your main speakers turned off to prevent room modes. Thankfully, room modes can be managed, but it requires embracing measurement, which might seem intimidating but really isn’t.

The variable phase feature is necessary to allow for much greater placement options and for optimisation. A sub with only 0-180 phase flip will have you endlessly experimenting trying to find the best spot. Also avoid ported subs although the home theater fans say they like the extra bass but it's not the bass I think you would like. The issue is that speaker ports resonate at one specific frequency set by their chosen dimensions and by definition are frequency invariant and therefore can not be tuned complicating matters. A mic. suitable for this costs about 100 bucks and the software is free from REW and will help not only with smoothing out the room modes but will also provide a graph of the decay times across the spectrum. An option is to find someone familiar with REW to dial it all in for you, an interesting and informative process.

Your speakers are rear ported I think and proximity to the wall behind could be causing some issues. The route I would consider is to temporarily plug the ports and listen. There will be a noticeable decrease in bass output which you may prefer in terms of midrange clarity but miss some of the necessary bass for a full and balanced sound. This is where a sub or two will help and more importantly by plugging the Wharfedale's ports you will have changed the low end response from 24dB to 12dB/octave nicely matching the sealed box subwoofer for the most seemless integration.

One sub is worth the cost and effort but two subs will bring even bigger gains by smoothing the response further where the industry standard of +/- 3dB can be achieved. This is not a trivial achievement! Your room as it stands will have large peaks and nulls which I know because all rooms suffer from this issue and when tamed will transform your sound. If you have never heard this approach to removing the nasty modes it is difficult to imagine the result. You will hear an effortless room filling sound with information previously missing now magically evident because the nulls, which is the result of out of phase cancellation, no longer taking place and likewise with the peaks which cause smearing and loss of detail. With eyes closed you will not be able to locate the subs even if you use one as a coffee table.

The end result is that with the damaging effects of your room's acoustics now properly sorted you get to hear the acoustics of the venue. I have a Christina Pluhar CD where I'm able to get a sense of the large hall's acoustics even before the music starts.

I am using two subs, a REL which is a pain to set up because it only has phase flip and an SVS SB1000 PRO which is compact and in addition to variable phase also provides adjustment to volume, low pass filter, polarity, parametric EQ, room gain compensation, and presets. All the above can be done via an App on your phone while seated in your favourite listening postion. See link below but know that there are other brands that will also work. My room is 16ftx21ft opening onto a large kitchen and I'm getting some of the best bass I've ever heard except when I had 3 subs :eek:

https://pricespy.co.uk/product.php?p=5733666#:~:text=The%20best%20price%2 0for%20SVS%20SB-1000%20Pro%20right,shopping%20tips%20by%20signing% 20up%20to%20our%20newsletter%21

[Pigmy Pony]

That is a lot of sub for not much money... go on Mike, you know it makes sense :)

[Mikeandvan]

Hi Mike, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Life has been busy, and a stretch of dry weather gave me the chance to tackle some house maintenance.

Room acoustics will inevitably impact the sound you hear, and there are only three ways to avoid this: 1) build an anechoic chamber, 2) move your system to the middle of a rugby field, or 3) use closed-back headphones with your main speakers turned off to prevent room modes. Thankfully, room modes can be managed, but it requires embracing measurement, which might seem intimidating but really isn’t.

The variable phase feature is necessary to allow for much greater placement options and for optimisation. A sub with only 0-180 phase flip will have you endlessly experimenting trying to find the best spot. Also avoid ported subs although the home theater fans say they like the extra bass but it's not the bass I think you would like. The issue is that speaker ports resonate at one specific frequency set by their chosen dimensions and by definition are frequency invariant and therefore can not be tuned complicating matters. A mic. suitable for this costs about 100 bucks and the software is free from REW and will help not only with smoothing out the room modes but will also provide a graph of the decay times across the spectrum. An option is to find someone familiar with REW to dial it all in for you, an interesting and informative process.

Your speakers are rear ported I think and proximity to the wall behind could be causing some issues. The route I would consider is to temporarily plug the ports and listen. There will be a noticeable decrease in bass output which you may prefer in terms of midrange clarity but miss some of the necessary bass for a full and balanced sound. This is where a sub or two will help and more importantly by plugging the Wharfedale's ports you will have changed the low end response from 24dB to 12dB/octave nicely matching the sealed box subwoofer for the most seemless integration.

One sub is worth the cost and effort but two subs will bring even bigger gains by smoothing the response further where the industry standard of +/- 3dB can be achieved. This is not a trivial achievement! Your room as it stands will have large peaks and nulls which I know because all rooms suffer from this issue and when tamed will transform your sound. If you have never heard this approach to removing the nasty modes it is difficult to imagine the result. You will hear an effortless room filling sound with information previously missing now magically evident because the nulls, which is the result of out of phase cancellation, no longer taking place and likewise with the peaks which cause smearing and loss of detail. With eyes closed you will not be able to locate the subs even if you use one as a coffee table.

The end result is that with the damaging effects of your room's acoustics now properly sorted you get to hear the acoustics of the venue. I have a Christina Pluhar CD where I'm able to get a sense of the large hall's acoustics even before the music starts.

I am using two subs, a REL which is a pain to set up because it only has phase flip and an SVS SB1000 PRO which is compact and in addition to variable phase also provides adjustment to volume, low pass filter, polarity, parametric EQ, room gain compensation, and presets. All the above can be done via an App on your phone while seated in your favourite listening postion. See link below but know that there are other brands that will also work. My room is 16ftx21ft opening onto a large kitchen and I'm getting some of the best bass I've ever heard except when I had 3 subs :eek:

https://pricespy.co.uk/product.php?p=5733666#:~:text=The%20best%20price%2 0for%20SVS%20SB-1000%20Pro%20right,shopping%20tips%20by%20signing% 20up%20to%20our%20newsletter%21

Thank you Charles, I don't understand all of that but get the basic message - buy a sub. I might have a look for a used one on Ebay, but does it have to be a fancy modern one with all this mobile phone connection blue tooth wifi bizness?

[Mikeandvan]

That is a lot of sub for not much money... go on Mike, you know it makes sense :)

Current price £680 with 15% off on Ebay! Offer 2 days to go, do I press the button?

[Puffin]

If you have not had a sub before I would suggest that you borrow one as you may regret spending that much. IMO they are not a cure all and some rooms need 2 to get the right balance. You previously mentioned that you have neighbours. With a sub they may be hearing frequencies that you don't hear given the radiation effect.

[helma]

Took the socks out, didn't like it overall. Next. Equalizer?

Dunno if it was already suggested but you could try blocking the port with something that lets more air through, like some kind of foam or something, or a smaller sock :p

It might also be worth a try to make the tuning frequency lower. The easiest way to do that would be to make the port diameter smaller while keeping the length the same. So some kind of tube that's slightly smaller in diameter than the current port, then roll something around it to make it fit tight in the existing port. Generally this will reduce the output in upper bass, but it could even make extension better, again depends on how it's currently tuned. In any case the resulting response in the bass will usually be something between stock and sock, so could be just what the doctor ordered. Could also be a somewhat bad idea in more ways than one, for one thing could make for flabby and loose bass that lacks punch and it could also make the woofers unhappy. If you don't reduce the diameter too much it should be fine though.

[Mikeandvan]

Thanks to all responses, I should mention that after 2 years of owning these speakers I finally got around to using the small discs that you rest the spikes on, and it seems to have helped with the boom, I didn't realise that my floor was suspended, being the basement I just assumed it was concrete.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54832370008_af3b9209c4_c.jpg

[sailor]

Hey Mike, regarding the post above concerned about the neighbours they will probably be less bothered by bass because the peaks have been tamed. Remember the whole object here is to achieve a smooth bass response.

Regarding the advice to alter the port size will unfortunately not solve anything because all that will do is just shift the issue to different frequencies. To be clear, no matter what speaker is used, no matter the size of the speaker you will forever be plagued by room modes. It's a sad fact but there just is no way of avoiding these pesky modes unless you counter them with a seperate bass source (subwoofer) adjusted in such a way as to oppose the nulls and peaks.

I do have much experience with numerous installations and I can state with confidence that it will make a very rewarding improvement to your sound, beyond any component change. With the discount on offer perhaps give it some serious consideration. I would happily set it up for you but I'm in Ireland on a South African passport and would need a British visa. Get the sub :eek: I'm sure there are members on this forum who have the means and knowledge to assist. Or wait till I get Irish citizenship that I've applied for.

[sailor]

Just a thought, If you get a mic and download the free REW we can set up a Zoom meeting or FaceTime and I can talk you through it.

[Mikeandvan]

Just a thought, If you get a mic and download the free REW we can set up a Zoom meeting or FaceTime and I can talk you through it.

Thank you Sir, I'll see what the state of my bank account is, but I better be quick, the discount ends today! It takes the cost down to £600.:scratch:

[Macca]

Thank you Sir, I'll see what the state of my bank account is, but I better be quick, the discount ends today! It takes the cost down to £600.:scratch:

You'd be better getting two cheaper subs if you want to even out your room modes.

[Pigmy Pony]

£569 currently at Richer Sounds.

I'd agree with Macca that two 'lesser' subs should work better, but then they would probably be lighter on facilities, including 'variable phase' control, which I didn't know was a thing until I followed this thread. Nothing's ever simple is it?

[Mikeandvan]

£569 currently at Richer Sounds.

I'd agree with Macca that two 'lesser' subs should work better, but then they would probably be lighter on facilities, including 'variable phase' control, which I didn't know was a thing until I followed this thread. Nothing's ever simple is it?

I'm getting £679 my end Richer sounds.

[sailor]

This is a copy and paste from my first post:
I am using two subs, a REL which is a pain to set up because it only has phase flip and an SVS SB1000 PRO which is compact and in addition to variable phase also provides adjustment to volume, low pass filter, polarity, parametric EQ, room gain compensation, and presets. All the above can be done via an App on your phone while seated in your favourite listening postion.

https://pricespy.co.uk/product.php?p...0newsletter%21

This is a great little sub and will do everything you need and is a breeze to set up. Buy 2 of them if you can. Buy once, cry once

[sailor]

oops that link does not work now. As steve posted.

Shipping options
package-icon
Richer Sounds is missing detailed shipping information
Variants
SVS SB-1000 Pro (Black Ash)
£569.00

[Mikeandvan]

https://www.richersounds.com/svs-sb-1000-pro-black-ash/

[Mikeandvan]

Looks like I'm gonna have to put this on pause until work picks up.

[Lawrence001]

Re the port suggestions can you afford a few packs of straws? As sticking a load of straws in each one can help loads. If you get long ones you can cut them in half. Pound shops are a good source. I put an elastic band around them to can take them in and out easier but they need to be in quite firmly so suck it and see with the number. Start with too many as you don't want them to fall in the cabinet [emoji51]

[Mikeandvan]

Re the port suggestions can you afford a few packs of straws? As sticking a load of straws in each one can help loads. If you get long ones you can cut them in half. Pound shops are a good source. I put an elastic band around them to can take them in and out easier but they need to be in quite firmly so suck it and see with the number. Start with too many as you don't want them to fall in the cabinet [emoji51]

Sounds complicated.:lol: