View Full Version : A true synopsis of Linn's history and status, or not?
Guys,
I read this very interesting post about Linn (and Naim) on pfm from a chap called Christian Thomas (who is he?), where I agree with many of his points, and I wondered what people on AoS thought of his remarks.
He wrote:
Linn is a company with an undying belief in its own infallibility - a belief that has never been backed up by any technical prowess - and which forced it untechnocratic credo down everyone's throats by telling everyone from Peter Walker downwards that they were deaf. (Ken Kessler, I hope you are reading this). It dismissed KEF and Laurie Fincham, destroying the company in the process, while using its drivers and crossovers to do so. It destroyed any scientific advance in hi fi for 30 years without contributing anything other than the flukes it happened to have and be marketing. It invited snake oil salesman into the industry to prey on the vanity and ignorance of the general public when it comes to sound reproduction. Instead of guiding them, it fleeced them - alienating thousands or millions of others from even bothering.
It employed a set of sales staff of beguiling egotism and conviction who were sent round dealers to enforce the message with all the subtlety of a dispatch from the Kray Twins. Not one member of this clan of converts had a trace of kindness or understanding and they were always quick to be nasty. Most of this lot have, I hear, now been made redundant as their tin god goes the way of all tin gods. They find that they have wasted 20 or 30 years of their life changing their characters to suit their employer and now have nowhere to go.
None of them ever had a nice word to say about any competitor or any other product. It was Linn or nowt. If you didn't believe that then you could look forward to a Glasweigan kiss. They would think that doing it to you commercially rather than physically showed how kind and reasonable they were.
Linn Products was never a passionate hi fi company. Naim Audio is that. And though Naim don't get everything right, they sure as hell mean to. Linn is an engineering company, and a parochial one at that. Just what we all have in our nearest towns. It is driven by an aggressive showman with a flair for marketing - or lies in different parlance - with a stature and demeanour and accent that is deliberately intimidating. His character, and particularly his wrong end of Glasgow schoolyard terror tactics, is what shaped Linn.
Now the engineering is all done by his brother, who was generally dismissed as the nerdy less-capable one (and if I have to get Dave Lipsey in to defend myself from accusations of libel, I shall - no one here will know who he is, but they do). He is the one that has really done well, but for people in the hi fi industry it is all seen through Ivor's lens. When you see a Klimax or a Keel, it is Marcus fitting it in to other work he is doing for aerospace companies - not Linn Products doing it.
Technically they are truly appalling, IMHO. Each time they come out with a product in a new area they marvel at how clever they are. But each product is that of a complete newbie, with every mistake that has ever been made in the 20 years beforehand magically encapsulated in one single item. LK1 - LK2 and running round dealers changing the transistors and paste. The second they lost touch with Naim over stealing Naim's cable, they somehow lost touch with making anything decent. I wonder why?
As someone wrote on here yesterday on a Keltic thread "Isobarik PMSes with 3x250s is a hard act to follow." Though I didn't directly say so at the time, that is because Naim designed the crossovers. And they are not, incidentally, an active version of the passive DMS crossover. Nothing done alone by Linn has been any good. The arms were done by Jelco, the cartridges by Supex/ Koetsu designers the cable by BICC, the ... well I could go on. The fact is they are a marketing company with no concern except to make money. Unfortunately they don't know how to make a good product - and that is because they never believed in investing in real expertise. They were cheapskates and thought they knew best and now they are paying the price for it while they fleece the gullible with their inflated prices for what is pure mediocrity.
I know exactly why Naim amps sound better than almost anything out there - and I bet Naim know that I know, though we have never directly talked about it. (And incidentally I didn't do my amp the same way). But Linn don't know why, even though I'm sure that Ivor must have been told at some point, and it shows in their products. They wouldn't employ anyone who might have the hinterland to know what was going on - or a proper background in electronics to inform them - because their mindset doesn't extend beyond Glasgow. They wouldn't employ someone to tell them what to do, would they?
And finally I would like to get to a topic that is close to my heart, and that is grace. Not the arms (which are lovely), but the quality. Linn had a heyday lasting between 20 and 30 years and they never showed any grace or humility about their position. They presumed to it, almost Mussolini like, as though it was some wrong that had been made right. They paraded over other people's destruction in the name of the "market" as though they deserved it. And that is their legacy today; in the cultish nature of the Linn acolytes and the death throes of what we should like to preserve as fidelity. Fidelity, what a strange word to now use. And the executioner of that dream in any meaningful commercial sense was Linn Products! Who took what they could, while they could, and didn't care for anything more noble.
You don't see this from Naim Audio who I think underperform commercially. But their passion is to make things better and I don't think I have ever seen a fillip in that aim. I have often wondered how they are really going to make proper money out of some products, but the main thought behind every product is, of those I know properly, to make it sound better and it will therefore sell. Not, by contrast, that we can fleece our idiot clients because we made a mistake last time but gave them good excuses (yeah, like the felt mat being the wrong way up.)
It boils down to integrity. It is a valueless commodity today, but it will return. I think Naim have maintained theirs - often with a dignified silence - while Linn have spent 20 years selling theirs to whoever would buy. That will show in the recession to come and I suspect that Linn will be well deserved history.
They are not nice people, and they didn't make nice people, and while that doesn't mean I lack sympathy for individuals (especially those that I know) they have had their time and were given their chances and they abused them. And they did active harm. Why should they keep their jobs when all those under Peter Walker din't have a choice.
Best
CT
I'll comment later, but in the meantime, what do others think? :)
Marco.
Wow - That man doesn't pull his punches!
On first reading I have to say I have some sympathy, though I have only ever had experience of two Linn products: the LP12 turntable and the Isobaraks.
Linn made their reputation with the LP12, and yes, maybe they showed that turntables have to do more than rotate precisely at 33 1/3 rpm, without wow, flutter or rumble. Yet a side-by-side comparison with a Thorens TD124/II, within my own system, demonstrated to me that there was absolutely no need to replace my Thorens. Furthermore, I couldn't be had with all that re-tuning of the Linn suspension, once a month, or when ever it was deemed necessary by the the Linn acolytes.
Linn destroyed their reputation with the Isobarak - without doubt the worse speaker I have ever heard!
The author speaks more kindly about Naim - not sure I'd necessarily agree. But that's perhaps a subject for another thread.
Regards
aquapiranha
24-09-2010, 01:31
Not sure I agree with everything he says there, after all naim are just as guilty as the next company when it comes to fleecing customers imo.
Sounds more like he has an axe to grind really.
But, in the end it is only a bloody stereo ffs.
Dave Cawley
24-09-2010, 06:30
Sounds more like he has an axe to grind really.
Indeed!
Dave
Sounds more like he has an axe to grind really.
Indeed!
Dave
It's also a long, rambling whinge, and he keeps dragging in the names of people of whom one has never heard.
I never 'got' the Linn/Naim hype, but this bloke just sounds twitter and bisted.
Anyway, where's Steve Toy these days? Has he been locked in Marco's cupboard or summat?
The Vinyl Adventure
24-09-2010, 07:59
Must have taken ages to write all that ... He could have just said naim are ace linn are baddys ...
I'm with Steve...
Maybe he used to work for linn and they sacked him for moaning about shit all the time...
98% of the Hifi industry seems to have axe to grind, the other 2% just go about their day wondering why everyone around them has such a big chip on thier shoulder... He seems just one of the 98% ...
The suggestion that everyone who bought Linn did so because they were bullied into it, deceived or just didn't know any better is both patronising and improbable at the same time. We seem to read a lot about 'bullying' in the workplace etc these days - the idea that a grown man or woman will alow themselves to be 'bullied' is laughable - if they do then they deserve all they get.
Comparisons with the 'Kray Twins' really show this crap up for what it is - no-one with any experience of serious violence would make a serious comparison between physical violence and some 'hard sell' or allegedly dubious business practices.
Linn speakers and amps we can debate about until the cows come home - but the LP12 TT was a fantastic sounding deck that made you want to play record after record - who cares if it wasn't 'neutral sounding'. Just to hear one demo'ed or at a friend's house was enough to convert a lot of otherwise indifferent people into listening to music and improving the quality of reproduction. Enough said.
Being one of the redundant Linn/Naim "disciples" of old and remembering a certain Chris Thomas as a one-time reviewer/dealer, I can't say that I agree with much of the above bile at all. The writer seems an extremely angry and bitter man who can throw all sorts at Linn yet defend Naim, who've been peddling the same old same old for years and rarely taking advantage of new components when they've come along...
I once knew Ivor and Julian very well, Studio 99 being one of the top three dealers for many, many years. Linn owned a flat above the Swiss Cottage shop and Ivor and staff regularly stayed there and popped in. Now, maybe we were the converted that didn't need to be preached to for a good while, but I never saw the supposed nasty side of Linn (I did Naim though...). Maybe we were selling a coloured and distorted version of reality, but LP's really were crap back then and the Sondek did try to make them listenable, and did this very well indeed.
When Naim abandoned the wonderful sounding bolt-up NAP250 and launched the CB range in 1980, I listened in horror to our new 250 which sounded harsh, strained and just plain nasty by comparison. You think that the larger versions of my Crown amps sound like fingers down a blackboard? The old D150A and DC300A have NOTHING on a CB NAP110 or 250 in terms of harshness. But then Linn introduced the Ittok which at the time overloaded the LP12 in the bass and started the whole fruitbox LP12 sound which balanced these awful amps. The rest is history.....
I think I know where Mr Thomas is coming from and I don't entirely disagree with his sentiments, but to defend Naim, who's early success relied entirely by riding on Linn's back for the first ten years or so is ridiculous. I actually LIKED the overall presentation of the LK1 and 2. The early overheating poweramps (pushing the fruitbox bass into Sara's wasn't a good idea) were soon sorted and at their best, the sound was like a Quad 44/405-2 but with the ability to drive 3-4 Ohm loads.
String tone via an LK1 and 2 was in a different league to the chrome plated harshness that emanated from the NAC72/HiCap and 250 of the mid eighties, this being made worse by the screech and quack of Linn's speakers back then. I think Naim were very deeply hurt by Linn doing their own amps their way (and I was ex-communicated from Salisbury for a couple of years), but to be fair to them, the 52 preamp and subsequent transistor upgrades a few years later went a long way to mellowing the "Olive" range out and opening things up a bit.
Nah, both of these firms were as good and bad as each other, sad to say. They certainly woke an ageing industry up asking what exactly should an audio system do and the "tune-n-rhythm" dem technique worked for me with ALL equipment, not just theirs, and for that I shall be entirely grateful to Ivor T and Charlie Brennan back in may 1981, for personally taking the trouble.
I'd also like to give a huge shout to many of Linn's staff back in the 80's. Michael McLean and Alan Gibb (the infamous "Toothpaste Twins" :lol:), Iain Tennant, an ex copper who did such sterling work in their QC dept, together with John Burn, who now runs Pear Audio. Also Martin's McHugh and Dalgliesh and others who were so helpful at the time.
I have very mixed feelings about these two companies. they did so much good but also did a heck of a lot of bad as well. Now, to keep afloat, they sell their stuff at hugely inflated prices, but it's keeping some dealers alive, so I shouldn't complain..
Hope I haven't said anything I shouldn't here. No doubt Marco will put me in place if necessary.
Techno Commander
24-09-2010, 09:15
I do seem to recall many of the magazines of the day were full of Linn this, or Linn that and that buying the latest Linn paving slab to sit your turntable on simply had to be done, or else you were some kind of muppet!!
Personally, it all smacked of "you must be in my gang" bullshit and I distanced myself from it big time. I never heard a Linn deck that sounded better than the competition and I dont like being in "gangs". I am far too independent and unconventional for that to work on me. :)
Yeah, it was "do you wanna be in my gang," but AT THE TIME it was a great gang for a guy in his early twenties, still living at home and with £500 upgrade money to spend, to be in. We all shared similar musical tastes and the equipment played to those tastes really well. Once "we" all started leaving home, got into lasting relationships and, heaven forbid, the sprogs came along, it all sort of dissipated, but like The Beatles and the Hippy culture, you had to be there to appreciate it in context I think.
chris@panteg
24-09-2010, 09:33
For me ' the Linn thing was a bit of a trap and i am glad to be out of it .
But an important point Dave made ' The LP12 made a lot of nasty sounding recordings pleasant to listen too or nice if you like , but then who wants nice ?.
I think the man has a serious Agenda though , painfully obvious to me .
hifi_dave
24-09-2010, 09:48
I couldn't be bothered to read right through this rant on PFM and I lost interest this time round.
To my mind this man has some axe to grind.
As one of the first Linn dealers and one of the last in the great cull of the 80's, I really can't confirm much of the comments made. I took on the LP12 when that was all that Linn made and we sold a huge number of them and always in comparative demo's against other TT's of the time. They sounded good, were very well put together and we rarely had a fault. What was there not to like ?
As a dealer, we rarely saw a rep and on the odd occasion that we had a visit, they were polite and interested in the quirky products that we sold. We were never bullied or subject to any sales pressure, so I guess it depended on the dealer. We were firm and knowledgeable and had a wide range of 'different' gear that amused and showed them that there was a different way.
That was until the mid 80's (can't remember when) when Linn introduced a contract which made huge demands of their dealers, dictating what, when and where to stock. They brought in programmed orders, targets, direct debit payment and laid down strict rules about demo's and selling techniques. This is when we pulled out and never looked back.
I am a late comer to the Naim brand, only stocking their products for around 11 years now and I can't praise them enough.
Right from the outset, they never made any demands other than we stock a representative range of their gear and that was far less than I expected. The rationale behind this is for the dealer to be able to provide decent dems to prospective customers and to show an upgrade path if required.
Depending on your point of view, the products sound good, are well thought out, practical, reliable and fetch good prices on the s/h market if you need to sell. Their service is second to none and they go to great lengths to help the dealer and customer with any queries or problems.
As a dealer, I find them to be a very professional company and I have never had any pressures put on me. I really can't be bothered nowadays to stock product which gives me any hassles and Naim is about as trouble free as it gets.
Just to add that we were also subject to the dealer "cull" (I think it may have been 1990 or 1991 Dave, after I first knew you). We did practically everything Linn wanted and it wouldn't have been a huge issue to fully comply. Our boss already shared databases with B&O so there was a precedent, but for some reason, "we" didn't agree to the terms of the contract and, despite pleas from the wider thinkers on shop-floor, our agency was terminated. It was the beginning of the end for our firm from then on I thought, as although CD had all but taken over by then, there was a reluctance in certain quarters to embrace superior and very profitable product that we were a perfect dealer for - the Absolute Sounds portfolio. We did a bit of Sonus Faber and Koetsu, but that was about it, despite the shop manager owning Krell and Apogee (he was made redundant a couple of years later [we privately wondered if this was purely for economic reasons]...).
P.S. I now know exactly who Christian Thomas is. We sold some of his little Sara-shaped speakers at one time :)
I have no idea who he is, Dave, as all this stuff happened way before my time in hi-fi.
Perhaps Christian should be invited to comment here?
I'm with you guys in that he appears to have an axe to grind (any idea why that would be?), but I also get the feeling that there's more than a nugget of truth in what he says, simply because as the old saying goes: there are always two sides to every story...
I would echo the positive comments others have said about Naim. I have a soft spot for the company after many happy years of using their equipment, and more importantly, having experienced first-hand the wonderful hospitality of Paul Stephenson and some of the staff there.
They definitely have some good people working for them and epitomise a customer focussed, professionally run, successful British business - and one to be proud of in these difficult financial times.
There are good people at Linn, too, but I'm not sure if the company has the same 'soul', or indeed Naim's laudable business ethics and legendary customer care.
Marco.
RochaCullen
24-09-2010, 11:12
This boy sounds a bit on the bitter side to me.
It also sounds to me, when you strip away all the negative and positive comment, that he is describing the symptoms of any emerging and blosoming business. We can't all be boutique, artisan builders of lovingly produced kit. It doesn't scale in any business. If you grow any business, measures have to be introduced to grow and secure income.
I know nothing of the history of Linn or Naim. In my short career in the software industry so far, I've worked for minnows, middle sized businesses and some of the biggest there are. And I get the idea that linn is just like another company I worked for in Glasgow. Middle sized, very image concious, aggressive, and driven by a bloke with more than his fair share of ego. That said, I might as well be describing 90% of middle sized businesses out there. From reading the thoughts of the regular posters on this site it seems the hifi industry is composed of a lot of big fish in a very small pond, so it is inevitably going to be cut-throat.
I'm new to hifi, and have some linn kit, because I picked it up cheap.
Regardless of the performance of either Linn or Naim kit, business is business, and like it or not sometimes you've got to play the game to win. I think this fella should get on with his life and perhaps get a job in another industry, maybe open a montessori. :lol:
So who exactly is this Christian Thomas chap (is he the guy who writes for Hi-fi+?), and why would he have a grudge against Linn?
Could someone please give me a précis of the history?
Cheers! :)
Marco.
Interesting discussion on a axe grinding thread at another forum.
I used to run a LP12, it was adequate. That deck went to a friend who still uses it. It does the job he requires. I have experience of Linn amps and speakers, they too were adequate,nothing more.
For me, If one wants to get into Linn/Naim/flatearth bashing/discussion, its worth asking where these brands are now and their relevance to the market and to music.
As far as im concerned, Linn's kit is and always was overpriced for a mediocre performance, the latest LP12 and all the trinkets, is handily out performed by the vast majority of kit available today at considerably lower cost, and why should anyone buy into their DS kit? As an IT professional (currently lounging about), I think their 'computer' audio model is pure BT...ie, there are far better solutions at more reasonable cost, a lot of Linn gear is tainted with sprinklings of bullshit....but then a heap of HiFi is also covered in foo and bull.
Having said this, I hope Linn survive, over the years they have through their brand helped to keep analogue alive.
Naim? I was never a believer, always found the music to tear yer skull off, terrible. But for the last five years I have used their CD players, a CDS, CD5....in my system they work well at the moment and I auditioned these against many other cd players with an open ear, with music, not a magazine or a dealers nodding approval. Their current portfolio also is aimed at the streaming market it seems and is also over priced for what is, essentially, a rapidly moving target.
The problem I have is the years spent in the 70s, 80s and 90s wading through the ridiculous Linn/Naim/Flatresponse/Hifireview/Prat/headnodding/foot tapping hogswill of UK hifi......when a shedload of good kit was ignored, from UK, US and Japan and indeed everywhere else, and I resented being told by the linnnaimaxis how to listen and what to think.........:)
Hi Jonathan,
Interesting thoughts... I shall comment later.
In the meantine, do you have any idea who Christian Thomas is and why he would have a grudge against Linn?
I would like to get to the bottom of this.
Marco.
Hi Jonathan,
Interesting thoughts... I shall comment later.
In the meantine, do you have any idea who Christian Thomas is and why he would have a grudge against Linn?
I would like to get to the bottom of this.
Marco.
not sure Marco, I think Dave (DSJR) would know.:)
Ok.... Dave, it's over to you! :)
Marco.
Christian is, I think, the man who once made "Principle" loudspeakers (many thanks to Rob Holt for jogging my memory) to a handful of dealers. they were Sara shaped and featured an 8" bass with little Audax tweeter. the drivers were glued in and this caused problems when the little tweeters blew as I remember.
Other than that Marco & BM, I cannot remember what his day job was in the meantime - too long ago and I've lived a fair few significant milestones/crises since then...
The Vinyl Adventure
24-09-2010, 13:20
http://www.resolutioncreative.eu/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/kristinscottthomasmatchbox.jpg
kristin thomas?
i always thought she looked like she had a chip on her shoulder
http://www.resolutioncreative.eu/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/kristinscottthomasmatchbox.jpg
kristin thomas?
i always thought she looked like she had a chip on her shoulder
She looks like she could do with some chips in her tummy!
So who exactly is this Christian Thomas chap (is he the guy who writes for Hi-fi+?), and why would he have a grudge against Linn?
Marco.
Sounds to me like a whining hi-fi mag reviewer who did not get his freebie. I don't know the owners of Linn but I know people who know them very well. So I could easily find out. But the point is, who cares?
As the proverb in Turkish says "dog barks but the caravan continues".
Techno Commander
24-09-2010, 14:52
I wish I had a freebie Linn. I could sell it and buy something respectable. :)
Haselsh1
24-09-2010, 15:36
http://www.resolutioncreative.eu/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/kristinscottthomasmatchbox.jpg
kristin thomas?
i always thought she looked like she had a chip on her shoulder
I'm having dirty thoughts having seen this...!!!
Thanks a lot Hamish.
The Vinyl Adventure
24-09-2010, 16:04
ha!
but yeah, chips in her belly... i agree
The problem I have is the years spent in the 70s, 80s and 90s wading through the ridiculous Linn/Naim/Flatresponse/Hifireview/Prat/headnodding/foot tapping hogswill of UK hifi......when a shedload of good kit was ignored, from UK, US and Japan and indeed everywhere else, and I resented being told by the linnnaimaxis how to listen and what to think.........
You've got it in one there Jonathan.
I don't think anybody is saying that Linn and/or Naim gear was crap, it wasn't - it was just over-rated and over-proselytised by the Linn/Naim-axis storm-trooping zelots.
As regards who actually designed the LP12, the following is instructive:
http://www.vinyldisc.co.uk/isitlinn.htm
(I'm not the 'Bazza' acknowledged in the above.)
Regards
chris@panteg
24-09-2010, 23:02
Christian is, I think, the man who once made "Principle" loudspeakers (many thanks to Rob Holt for jogging my memory) to a handful of dealers. they were Sara shaped and featured an 8" bass with little Audax tweeter. the drivers were glued in and this caused problems when the little tweeters blew as I remember.
Other than that Marco & BM, I cannot remember what his day job was in the meantime - too long ago and I've lived a fair few significant milestones/crises since then...
Dave
Did this guy used to write for HiFi review back in the 80's ? or is that a different Chris Thomas.
The writer was also a dealer for a while and not the author of the post as far as I can see.
That article regarding the Rd11/LP12 leaves so much out which is now buried in the mists of time. The "real" inventor of the LP12 concept IMO was Thorens with the TD150, the LP12/RD11 basically being a "blue-printed" version with a superior sub-chassis. As for the single-point bearing, my 1971 TD125 has one, running in close tolerance sintered (?) bushings. I'm not sure if the TD150 ever featured a similar bearing or whether all the early ones had a captive ball as the TD124 did..
I seem to remember that Julian Vereker thought that Linn's amps would have significant Naim input and I believe there was significant shock when the LK1 and 2 came out (IBM, or one of their board-stuffers, assembled the Linn circuit boards I understand)
Oh yes, I no longer have the book, but one of the early 70's HiFi yearbooks referred to the ARISTON ISOBARIC too... Not sure if this pic is of an early Linn one or not...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Isobarik20Original.jpg
chris@panteg
25-09-2010, 11:24
Thanks Dave
Just about to go up to Whittlebury with a friend and am keen to hear the full blown LP12 se in the Cimbiosis room ' but also more importantly for me anyway i would like to hear the Avid Diva SP2 .
I'd rather compare the LP12Se with the Rubykon LP12 version with a decent tonearm... and then see a Spacedeck at least equal it at a price around the same as the Rubykon on its own - ahem..
The writer was also a dealer for a while and not the author of the post as far as I can see.
That article regarding the RD11/LP12 leaves so much out which is now buried in the mists of time. The "real" inventor of the LP12 concept IMO was Thorens with the TD150, the LP12/RD11 basically being a "blue-printed" version with a superior sub-chassis. As for the single-point bearing, my 1971 TD125 has one, running in close tolerance sintered (?) bushings. I'm not sure if the TD150 ever featured a similar bearing or whether all the early ones had a captive ball as the TD124 did.
I seem to remember that Julian Vereker thought that Linn's amps would have significant Naim input and I believe there was significant shock when the LK1 and 2 came out (IBM, or one of their board-stuffers, assembled the Linn circuit boards I understand)
Oh yes, I no longer have the book, but one of the early 70's HiFi yearbooks referred to the ARISTON ISOBARIC too... Not sure if this pic is of an early Linn one or not...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Isobarik20Original.jpg
The LP12 'concept' goes beyond the Thorens TD150, back to Edgar Villchur's Acoustic Research AR-XA turntable:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUaZVHD-FAUxIQ-mSZI8eGtjZ57kN7X6VVV9lCsvqUGdp30Oc&t=1&usg=__-a4BTfaXZqzNSpB2r-XiCvTv1P4=
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