Garrard 301

[hifi_dave]

You may be interested to learn that SME, the new owners of the Garrard name, have introduced a 301 turntable.

The price is £51,000.

I suppose there will be a 401 to follow and I'm really looking forward to a SP25.

[Barry]

£51K! Are they having a laugh?

I think we should boycott SME as they no longer sell the V and V12 arms on their own.

One wonders how much they are charging for their own turntables.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The review is up and running in this months hi-fi news. I can't see how they can charge £51K. The tonearm alone is (I think) £7K, the deck appears to be a donor. The idler wheel looks new, I think the bearing may have had a little done and the motor appears to have been reworked. These are all things which have been done already by some very talented people out there in hi-fi hobby land. The plinth is supposed to be new, some new polymer. Hmmmm...... I wonder how this compares to materials such as Bamboo, or Panzerholz, or Permali, all very well known for having excellent damping qualities, and yes, you can make a plinth from any of these materials for a couple of grand. We could go on and on with speculation. I'd prefer to get my own donor deck and then rework my own version of a 301. The only thing of interest is the lab report which highlights (already known) weak points in the 301's design and enables tweakers like me to try and work as best as possible to improve these flaws.

[Jimbo]

I had a Garrard 301 in 1984 , cost me about £300-£400 and that was with a tonearm ( Tom Fletchers).

Sounds like a new lick of paint some grease and a few new parts has increased the price somewhat?:eek:

[Barry]

One assumes SME have done their market research and found out that there are enough wealthy suckers out there who wouldn't blink at the notion of spending £51K on what is a 'status symbol' record player.

Sad to see what has become of a traditional British audio company, who now seems desperate to achieve Veblen status.

[Jimbo]

I wonder which audiophiles would really shell out that much for a turntable?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Probably not that many when you consider audiograil do the same thing as SME and can also supply a well researched plinth for <10k, true you would need to find a tonearm but even then your still well under £20k even if you paId silly money for a used SME v-12. That’s still a saving of £31k ��

[Barry]

To be perfectly honest, I don't understand the attraction of the 301. IMHO the 401 (especially an early version) was superior.

But regardless of that, what SME are offering is a total mismatch of cosmetic styles: '40s turntable, '60s or '90s pickup arm, and a horror of a plinth (which doesn't seem to come with a cover). :stalks:

[Jimbo]

To be perfectly honest, I don't understand the attraction of the 301. IMHO the 401 (especially an early version) was superior.

But regardless of that, what SME are offering is a total mismatch of cosmetic styles: '40s turntable, '60s or '90s pickup arm, and a horror of a plinth (which doesn't seem to come with a cover). :stalks:

Yeah it is a bit of a mash up!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Barry, didn’t you realise the cover is a £10k optional extra?

[SansuiSushi]

51K? Hahaha clearly they pulled that number out of a dark hole on their backend.

[Beobloke]

I had a Garrard 301 in 1984 , cost me about £300-£400 and that was with a tonearm ( Tom Fletchers).

Sounds like a new lick of paint some grease and a few new parts has increased the price somewhat?:eek:

I could have filled about ten pages with the full details of what SME has done to the deck to refurbish it.

It’s far, far more than a “lick of paint and some grease”.

They will be giving the 401 the same treatment and are already working on a brand new, designed from scratch, flagship Garrard idler drive turntable.

But, sadly, no SP25!!

[Jimbo]

I could have filled about ten pages with the full details of what SME has done to the deck to refurbish it.

It’s far, far more than a “lick of paint and some grease”.

They will be giving the 401 the same treatment and are already working on a brand new, designed from scratch, flagship Garrard idler drive turntable.

But, sadly, no SP25!!

How do they get to a price of £51,000?

[Barry]

I could have filled about ten pages with the full details of what SME has done to the deck to refurbish it.

It’s far, far more than a “lick of paint and some grease”.

They will be giving the 401 the same treatment and are already working on a brand new, designed from scratch, flagship Garrard idler drive turntable.

But, sadly, no SP25!!

Just as well - Garrard replaced the grease bearing with an oil lubricated bearing by request from the BBC. In their opinion the grease bearing had insufficiently low rumble for stereo recordings.

To justify the five figure sum SME are charging, I would expect a completely new bearing design, new platter and mat, and a new design for the idler speed change mechanism. Whilst we're at it, a new motor design could be included.

Then I would expect SME to offer a choice of paint colours and finishes, including a refund for the unimaginative cosmetics of the plinth.

Let's hope they don't make such a dog's dinner with the 401A.
.

[Macca]

How do they get to a price of £51,000?

Market research?

If you make it too cheap no-one will take it seriously plus you'll have to sell thousands a year to make any money.

Make it too expensive then you limit the market too much and you'll only sell a handful a year.

£50K plus is not unusual in high end turntable world. Even though Technics do motor units for a couple of grand that are better than almost all of them including 301 and 401. But SQ not the biggest factor at the 'millionaires only' price level.

[Barry]

SME are aiming for 'Veblen' status where the greater the cost for a luxury item, the greater the demand.

It works for Rolls Royce and Rolex. ARA would be spinning in his grave!

[Beobloke]

The bearing is new.

The platter mat is new and made by the same company who made them for Garrard 70 years ago. They still had the original tooling and the formula for the rubber and its curing details were written in pencil in a long-archived notebook!

Every single nut, bolt, washer and metal linkage is sent to a specialist company for removal of the cadmium coating, then returned to SME. Every single one is then finished BY HAND! They are then re-plated in zinc.

The switch plates have been re-created and the rivets that hold them in are made from a special mix of brass and copper so that they have the exact same appearance and dome height as the originals when fitted.

The main chassis is aqua-blasted and re-finished in a new acrylic paint that is lead-free unlike the original. It took them nearly a month to perfect the spray method so that the original finish was re-created.

The platter strobe markings are re-machined to an accuracy of 1 thou. The review 301 is the only one I’ve ever used where the strobe markings didn’t ‘waver’ slightly even when the speed is steady.

The handbook has been recreated with new pictures and was printed in Portsmouth by a printer with a connection to the Swindon printer of the original. Chemical analysis was carried out on an original, faded handbook to determine what the correct original colour for the cover would have been.

There is more but, honestly, the attention to detail in the whole thing is genuinely staggering. You may well think I’ve lost the plot, but I actually came away thinking £51k wasn’t completely unreasonable, given the engineering skill and the performance on offer.

[Barry]

All that trouble to get a CE certification.

Is the specification improved? and does it really matter what colour the cover of the handbook is?

As I suspected: a lot of expensive cosmetic work to bring the deck up to CE standards, with little if anything done to improve the mechanical (and hence audio) specification.

[Jimbo]

The bearing is new.

The platter mat is new and made by the same company who made them for Garrard 70 years ago. They still had the original tooling and the formula for the rubber and its curing details were written in pencil in a long-archived notebook!

Every single nut, bolt, washer and metal linkage is sent to a specialist company for removal of the cadmium coating, then returned to SME. Every single one is then finished BY HAND! They are then re-plated in zinc.

The switch plates have been re-created and the rivets that hold them in are made from a special mix of brass and copper so that they have the exact same appearance and dome height as the originals when fitted.

The main chassis is aqua-blasted and re-finished in a new acrylic paint that is lead-free unlike the original. It took them nearly a month to perfect the spray method so that the original finish was re-created.

The platter strobe markings are re-machined to an accuracy of 1 thou. The review 301 is the only one I’ve ever used where the strobe markings didn’t ‘waver’ slightly even when the speed is steady.

The handbook has been recreated with new pictures and was printed in Portsmouth by a printer with a connection to the Swindon printer of the original. Chemical analysis was carried out on an original, faded handbook to determine what the correct original colour for the cover would have been.

There is more but, honestly, the attention to detail in the whole thing is genuinely staggering. You may well think I’ve lost the plot, but I actually came away thinking £51k wasn’t completely unreasonable, given the engineering skill and the performance on offer.

That's not £50,000 of work - surely? Unless most of the turntable has been built from new parts that have been copied from the original specification. Then I can see where the cost comes from.

[Beobloke]

That's not £50,000 of work - surely? Unless most of the turntable has been built from new parts that have been copied from the original specification. Then I can see where the cost comes from.

No it’s not - but the plinth and arm are part of the package, and I reckon a 12” SME V would be around £9000 on its own if you could buy one, plus I’m guessing a machined polymer plinth is a couple of grand.

That leaves £39k or thereabouts.

Let me know the quotes you get from the relevant companies to have all the above work done on your own 301! [emoji6]

One other thing - the deck I reviewed had actually been sold. The customer bought two of them…

[Jimbo]

No it’s not - but the plinth and arm are part of the package, and I reckon a 12” SME V would be around £9000 on its own if you could buy one, plus I’m guessing a machined polymer plinth is a couple of grand.

That leaves £39k or thereabouts.

Let me know the quotes you get from the relevant companies to have all the above work done on your own 301! [emoji6]

One other thing - the deck I reviewed had actually been sold. The customer bought two of them…

Sold my deck years ago Adam as my VPI is far better!:)

[Wakefield Turntables]

What's new about the bearing? I could honestly understand if a new formulation of rubber had been especially designed to improve the idler wheel or the platter mat. I could understand if the motor had been redesigned to improve vibration getting into the idler wheel, I could understand if the whole deck had been tweaked and improved. Anyone can refurbish a 301 or a 401, it's not difficult. I'm afraid I'm not convinced. I'am however really really looking forward to the new Garrard deck. Garrard may have done one positive thing. The cost of second hand decks may increase even further. I wonder as a comparison which is increasing in value more, gold or a Garrard 301? :lol:

[Jimbo]

What's new about the bearing? I could honestly understand if a new formulation of rubber had been especially designed to improve the idler wheel or the platter mat. I could understand if the motor had been redesigned to improve vibration getting into the idler wheel, I could understand if the whole deck had been tweaked and improved. Anyone can refurbish a 301 or a 401, it's not difficult. I'm afraid I'm not convinced. I'am however really really looking forward to the new Garrard deck. Garrard may have done one positive thing. The cost of second hand decks may increase even further. I wonder as a comparison which is increasing in value more, gold or a Garrard 301? :lol:

I would have thought most of the bits that needed refurbishment could be done at a fairly reasonable price and even a paint job should cost less than a grand?

[Beobloke]

What's new about the bearing? I could honestly understand if a new formulation of rubber had been especially designed to improve the idler wheel or the platter mat. I could understand if the motor had been redesigned to improve vibration getting into the idler wheel, I could understand if the whole deck had been tweaked and improved. Anyone can refurbish a 301 or a 401, it's not difficult. I'm afraid I'm not convinced. I'am however really really looking forward to the new Garrard deck. Garrard may have done one positive thing. The cost of second hand decks may increase even further. I wonder as a comparison which is increasing in value more, gold or a Garrard 301? :lol:

Talking to SME, they only re-made the bits they felt could be improved upon or where the benefit of modern materials could be utilised.

They didn’t consider the motors to need anything other than a thorough service and also felt that the idler wheels were fine. They did apparently consider re-doing the platters but every one they tested was still perfectly balanced, so they just received a paint job and the re-machining of the strobe markings.

In fact I got the distinct impression that they were pretty impressed with the engineering that Garrard put into the product, 70 years ago!

[Wakefield Turntables]

I would have thought most of the bits that needed refurbishment could be done at a fairly reasonable price and even a paint job should cost less than a grand?

Yep, I think I would agree with that.

[Macca]

Ten times cost of parts for retail price is the rule of the thumb. Or you will lose money.

They got to buy a 301 first - seem to average about £1500 on ebay looking at sold listings - then do the refurb. Paint, parts, cleaning, if it's all top notch that can add up.

Say they get the arms for six grand so knock that off the price - so you got to come in under £4.5K in parts to make any money at £51K price. That leaves three grand for the paint and other parts. Maybe that's a bit much, so they maybe marking up a little more than ten times, but not excessively

If you can DIY it to the same standard of course it will be cheaper, you've no overhead and you're not costing your time.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Ten times cost of parts for retail price is the rule of the thumb. Or you will lose money.

Where's your reference for this stat?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Talking to SME, they only re-made the bits they felt could be improved upon or where the benefit of modern materials could be utilised.

They didn’t consider the motors to need anything other than a thorough service and also felt that the idler wheels were fine. They did apparently consider re-doing the platters but every one they tested was still perfectly balanced, so they just received a paint job and the re-machining of the strobe markings.

In fact I got the distinct impression that they were pretty impressed with the engineering that Garrard put into the product, 70 years ago!

Still, Adam, 51K for a few reworked parts, a tonearm that's already probably in stock, a plinth made from a special "advanced polymer", a paint job that most body shops could do for <£750, and a bit of machine work on the platter !!?!! I respect SME for ground breaking audio design, innovation and amazing engineering, not silly money grab tactics. :rolleyes:
. Didn't you also say they decoupled the motor on these new plinths?

[Macca]

Where's your reference for this stat?

It's not a stat it's a generally accepted guideline for what you need to charge for a widget if you want to make any profit.

If each one costs you £1 of steel to make then you need to be retailing them at a tenner or more. Less than that and you will lose money over time because overhead eats up most of that £9 difference.

[Barry]

Let me see if I have got this correct:

SME take an existing Garrard 301 with a grease bearing and strip it down to its component parts. The rivets having been drilled out, are replaced with new nickle-plated replicas. All the remaining cadmium-plated parts are stripped of their plating and re-plated with nickel. The chassis is stripped of its paintwork and repainted with lead-free paint. Then the deck is reassembled and fitted into a newly designed plinth, with a choice of either an SME V-12 arm or an M12-R arm.

Well it would take some time and effort to dismantle and then later to reassemble the deck, but stripping the metal parts of the cadplate and replating is not difficult or expensive, nor is the paint stripping and repainting of the chassis.

The most stupid part of the whole refurbishment scheme is finding out the exact colour of the cover of the owner handbook, so an accurate facsimile can be printed. What the hell this has to do with the setting up of the deck is anyone's guess, but it is an unnecessary action and adds nothing to the overall acoustic qualities of the setup.

Even if it can be argued that the five figure sum is justified, the buyer will still end up with a '50s grease bearing 301, which will always be sonically inferior to the later oil bearing version, and not a patch on what that sum could buy you today.

As I said ARA would be spinning in his grave to see what his company has become.

[Barry]

It's not a stat it's a generally accepted guideline for what you need to charge for a widget if you want to make any profit.

If each one costs you £1 of steel to make then you need to be retailing them at a tenner or more. Less than that and you will lose money over time because overhead eats up most of that £9 difference.

In the catering/restaurant business the mark up is 3 - 5 times the cost of the ingredients.

In my experience from my time in an electronics research centre, the cost to the buyer was the sum of the cost to build (which included materials, salaries and overheads) + 20%. That never worked out to be 10 times the material cost.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Well what ever the costs, I have a perfect (to me) 301, so my £51K stays in my pension pot. :ner:

[mbic]

This company would be choice: https://classicturntablecompany.co.uk/

[Macca]

In the catering/restaourant business th emark up is 3 - 5 times.

.
Ever notice how many of those go broke?

[Barry]

Ever notice how many of those go broke?

That's because there are too many 'eateries' chasing a limited number of customers.

[Jimbo]

This company would be choice: https://classicturntablecompany.co.uk/

They look superb. Add an arm and plinth and you still get a fantastic quality 301 for under £10,000?

[Barry]

This company would be choice: https://classicturntablecompany.co.uk/

Wow - that would be the company I would go to if I wanted either a 301 or 401.

I see they are based in Wakefield, Andrew do you know of them?

[Macca]

That's because there are too many 'eateries' chasing a limited number of customers.

Exactly. Too much competition means they can't charge what they need to charge to actually make money. They all put each other out of business. The main issue is that anyone can open a restaurant, no skill or knowledge is required, and it's a romantic dream for many.

Some years ago I was asked to invest in a restaurant but after a chat with the owner I concluded he was utterly clueless and it would be quicker just to stick the money down the nearest grid. He went bust not long after.

That doesn't apply in most businesses (loudspeaker companies excepted :D ).

[Patrick Dixon]

They look superb. Add an arm and plinth and you still get a fantastic quality 301 for under £10,000?

Yes, but what plinth?

[Patrick Dixon]

Wow - that would be the company I would go to if I wanted either a 301 or 401.

I see they are based in Wakefield, Andrew do know of them?

CTC. They are who refurbished my 301 which has sat in a box every since. If only I knew what plinth to put it in.

[Jimbo]

Yes, but what plinth?

Here you go I am sure this company can sort one out for you?


https://www.acoustand.co.uk/collections/all/products/acoustand-solid-plinth-3-new

[Wakefield Turntables]

I see they are based in Wakefield, Andrew do you know of them?

Yes, about 2 miles from where I live and I also know Alchris Audio, about 5 miles from where I live!!

[Ali Tait]

Wow - that would be the company I would go to if I wanted either a 301 or 401.

I see they are based in Wakefield, Andrew do you know of them?

Me too. I have a NOS 401 that will need a mechanical refurbishment, their prices look very reasonable. Normally I'd do it myself but just don't have the time at the moment.

Thanks for the link Michael!

[Beobloke]

Let me see if I have got this correct:

SME take an existing Garrard 301 with a grease bearing and strip it down to its component parts….



No, the 301s they are using are all oil bearing types.

[SLS]

They look superb. Add an arm and plinth and you still get a fantastic quality 301 for under £10,000?

I recently restored a 301 through Ray Clark at Classic Turntable. I went full out with solid brass plinth and super-duper bearing, you need it for the plinth, which weighs about 11kg. I had a fairly new Reed 3P and bought a Groovemaster III to go with it. The plinth is 16 coats of gloss lacquer, took 5 weeks to do as each coat has to be polished and buffed.

The total cost was £6,500 for the deck, £6,300 for the two arms and £1,200 for the Longdog Quartz power supply.

So a twin arm deck that looks better than the Garrard and is probably a better performer given the brass plinth/bearing and power supply. Total cost £14,000 - one third the SME price.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53654158822_69e3e40d59_b.jpg

[Jimbo]

I recently restored a 301 through Ray Clark at Classic Turntable. I went full out with solid brass plinth and super-duper bearing, you need it for the plinth, which weighs about 11kg. I had a fairly new Reed 3P and bought a Groovemaster III to go with it. The plinth is 16 coats of gloss lacquer, took 5 weeks to do as each coat has to be polished and buffed.

The total cost was £6,500 for the deck, £6,300 for the two arms and £1,200 for the Longdog Quartz power supply.

So a twin arm deck that looks better than the Garrard and is probably a better performer given the brass plinth/bearing and power supply. Total cost £14,000 - one third the SME price.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53654158822_69e3e40d59_b.jpg

Stunning. Well done.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yep, just goes to show what can be done with some lateral thinking.

[hifi_dave]

You could charge £40k for a badge so that it is a better match for the SME/301.