Problems with the Mark Levinson 390s CD player - a possible design flaw?

[Barry]

Some time ago I noticed a strange phenomenon with my ML390s player: the volume level was erratic, jumping up and down and not restricted to a particular channel. This seemed to last about forty minutes or so. Afterwards, when I played another disc all was fine.

Since that time the player has behaved itself - until yesterday. It happened again: volume levels jumping up and down, but I have now found the reason why. It happens when I play a disc which has video track playable on a computer.

For some reason when the disc is scanned, the video content upsets the purely audio tracks. Is this to be expected, or is the Levinson especially fussy? I think there a couple of Members here who use the same model of player. Have you noticed the same phenomena?

I should add that if I play the same discs on 'lesser' players, there are no problems.

[Stranraer]

Hi Barry,
I've only had one issue with my 390, and it was nothing with the symptoms you describe.
I'm not sure if I have any discs that match the one causing your problem.
How would I identify them ? If I've got one I'm happy to give it a spin and advise.
As previously posted, I mostly use mine as a DAC now with an Audiolab 6000 as transport.

[Barry]

Hi David,

The discs that give problems are those which have a video track, usually showing a live performance or a mini-documentary on the making of the disc.

Two examples are: The Rolling Stones 'Totally Stripped', and The Beatles 'Rubber Soul', which has a track 'Rubber Soul Mini-Documentary'.

I think the addition of video tracks is becoming more common with reissues and remasters.

Cheers
Barry

[Macca]

Lots of older players have issues with CDs that don't conform to Red Book standard.

Mainly because non standard CDs didn't exist when they were designed. ML almost certainly bought everything in from Sanyo or Matsushita and just stuck it in their case, same as every non-Japanese company that offered a CD player. Until the Chinese came on the scene.

[Barry]

Thanks Martin. Have you noticed the same effect?

The laser mechanism is a Philips CDM-12 (industrial version), and the DAC uses AD1853 multi-bit sigma/delta devices.

I don't understand how the digital video information can interfere/corrupt the digital audio information.

[Macca]

Thanks Martin. Have you noticed the same effect?

The laser mechanism is a Philips CDM-12 (industrial version), and the DAC uses AD1853 multi-bit sigma/delta devices.

I don't understand how the digital video information can interfere/corrupt the digital audio information.

Yes got a few vintage players which won't read the handful of 'non-cd cds' I've got.

I don't know what it is specifically they don't like about them though.

[Stranraer]

Hi David,

The discs that give problems are those which have a video track
Sorry then, I don't think I have any in that format that I can test. Hopefully not a major concern for you, but if so maybe hook up another transport to play those discs ?
I'm sure you'll already be aware but it's nice n easy to toggle between the built in 390 transport and another.

[Stranraer]

ML almost certainly bought everything in from Sanyo or Matsushita and just stuck it in their case

Bit harsh Macca :)
They're beautiful machines. Anything "bought in" will at bare minimum be incorporated using the highest quality braided string and free range, organic chewing gum !

[Lawrence001]

I think they are ones where you can watch the video in a PC but still play the music in a CD player. You can usually identify them by having a small separate section on the outside with a "gap" between the two sections.

Odd behaviour as I think they have all the information needed to play in a CD player but there must be something different about how the ML works compared to most.

[Macca]

Bit harsh Macca :)
They're beautiful machines. Anything "bought in" will at bare minimum be incorporated using the highest quality braided string and free range, organic chewing gum !

Maybe - I like ML gear. I like the looks, I like the build quality. But they bought in their transport and DAC from OEM just like all the non-Japanese companies did - except Philips.

[Barry]

True, the Levinson ML 390S uses a Philips laser reader: the CDM12 Industrial. Taken from the HiFi Advice site:

Not only Philips and Maranz used these transports: various other players were outfitted with these massive cast-iron swing-arm Rodenstock glass-lens mechanisms. Today, many of these products are still around, spinning CD’s as happily as before. They still produce excellent sound and as it turns out these transports are virtually indestructible.

CDM 12 IND (1994)

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/CDM12_w_legs_me.jpg

Of the various CDM12 incarnations, especially worth mentioning is the CDM12 IND, short for Industrial. This was the first generation of the CD Pro family of professional compact disc modules. It was the first to include a heavy die-cast metal frame and a servo/decoder circuit board as an integral part of the module. This mechanism was very successful in the high-end audio market as well as in the jukebox market, because of its robustness and reliability. The CDM12 Industrial can be identified by its extension plate, which reads “CDM 12 Industrial.” It’s model number will read “AH03.”

While it may seem that the CMD12 IND is nothing more than a cheap transport with a fancy housing, there are certain other details that have been improved such as double metal guide rails instead of the plastic slide pad of the cheaper models. Also, the CDM12 IND is fitted with a full metal spindle/disc turntable. This is an important aspect for its longevity because the plastic CDPro turntables had a tendency to crack over time.

The CDM12 IND is pin-compatible with the later CDPro and CDPro2 mechanisms. Also, the laser pickup part inside is compatible with that of a wide range of CDM12 mechanisms, such as the CDM12.4. While the turntable motor is not a part that tends to break down, it is also compatible with that of the simpler mechanisms.

[Macca]

Does it need to be 'virtually indestructible'? What sort of use-case will put that to the test?

Laser will eventually start losing power and although that can be tweaked to stave off death a little longer, it will eventually start struggling to read and need binning even if the mechanical parts will linger on in landfill until the sun dies.

[Barry]

The phrase "virtually indestructible" was that of the author of the post from the HiFi Advice site I cribbed. Agree, when it comes to domestic audio gear, such a requirement is unnecessary. But as it was one of the first series of laser mechanisms developed by Philips, they probably pulled out all of the stops to develop as reliable a product as possible; especially as they had the professional and CD juke box market in mind.

Regarding the lifetime of the laser, the MTBF of the diode is 25,000 to 50,000 hours, depending on the current driven through it. One of the reasons for laser diode 'failure' is not failure of the chip itself, but of the oft-used plastic lens which, with time, becomes statically charged and attracts dust affecting the ability of the device to read the disc. Readers fitted with glass lenses, such as the Philips CDM-12 (Industrial) do not suffer from this problem, and their lifetime can be many decades.

But let's stay with a figure of 25,000 hours - that's at least the playing time of 25,000 CDs.

[Macca]

The phrase "virtually indestructible" was that of the author of the post from the HiFi Advice site I cribbed. Agree, when it comes to domestic audio gear, such a requirement is unnecessary. But as it was one of the first series of laser mechanisms developed by Philips, they probably pulled out all of the stops to develop as reliable a product as possible; especially as they had the professional and CD juke box market in mind.

Regarding the lifetime of the laser, the MTBF of the diode is 25,000 to 50,000 hours, depending on the current driven through it. One of the reasons for laser diode 'failure' is not failure of the chip itself, but of the oft-used plastic lens which, with time, becomes statically charged and attracts dust affecting the ability of the device to read the disc. Readers fitted with glass lenses, such as the Philips CDM-12 (Industrial) do not suffer from this problem, and their lifetime can be many decades.

But let's stay with a figure of 25,000 hours - that's at least the playing time of 25,000 CDs.

Yes a low hours one isn't going to fail anytime soon. Things like belts and plastic cogs go before the laser does so good build quality isn't pointless. But there's a limit to how good it needs to be for the purpose.

No-one ever used the CD jukebox in my Uncle's pub because it was too expensive so that mech had an easy ride.

[Stranraer]

Regarding the lifetime of the laser, the MTBF of the diode is 25,000 to 50,000 hours,
Appreciate that nugget Barry, maybe I'll treat myself to a few more spins using the Levinson's own transport.
It definitely has a bit more weight and clarity than the Audiolab as external alternative.

[sq225917]

Mate of mine from uni runs sound n leisure in Leeds, they used to be the company that built all the cd jukebox in almost every pub in the uk. They all used the cdm 12 pro mech. Imagine all the hours these units played?