how would you update this system?

[PaulBarnett]

Hi.

I have some (currently theoretical) questions about my system, which is getting on a bit.

I have a nytech cta252+cxa252+arc101ap speakers - after all these years (I bought them in 1982),
they still sound great (to me), fed by either the built-in tuner, or a so-so cd player
(rotel rcd-965bx) or a linn lp12+lingo+itok lvii+linn k18

My concern is that if the nytechs or the arcs should die, after all these years, they are probably
not replaceable, or (speakers especially) not even repairable.

So

question 1) What would you all consider to be a modern alternative to the nytech/arc setup,
or, to put it another way, how much would I have to pay to replace them with modern,
sounding at least as good, equivalents?

(and maybe, at the same time updating to something more digital-ish ,eg naim unitiqute)

question 2) apart from making sure it is still set up ok, what would you do with the linn.
Especially, would you, and if so with what, replace the k18?

Right now, I'm not planning on changing anything, but I've got this feeling in the back of my mind
that I'm living on borrowed time with such old kit, and if it were to fail, I have no backup plan.

question 3) Am I worrying unduly?

[Rare Bird]

Hi Paul
Do you still have the crossover pods for the ARC's?

[DSJR]

The sources are what I'd look at IMO.

How old is the LP12 and it's serial number? if you have the plinth with big corner fillets (mid 1980's and s/n around 70*** IIRC) then get a Cirkus. if the LP12 is earlier, then a new plinth should be factored in as well and there are others who make entirely satisfactory looking plinths out there that may well be cheaper than Linn now charge.

Ittoks are fine, classic tonearms and as the K18 is an Audio Technica in light disguise, I'd suggest either an AT150MLX, one of the new Ortofons around the same price and (known to Marco here but not myself - the current ones anyway) an equivalent Nagaoka perhaps. Others could be the lovely Sumiko BPS or Blackbird.

The 965BX CD player wasn't the most subtle as I remember and came from the What HiFi "brasher the better" era. It's well made though but might not be young enough for any clock upgrades. Rotel used to put boutique capacitors in many of their better players so much of the upgrading may have been done already. Modern CD players at the £500 level may sound rather more "human" I reckon - ESPECIALLY the REGA APOLLO, which would suit your setup perfectly I think.

Interconnects could be looked at. Flashback Sales would be where I'd look for DIN-DIN and DIN-Phono leads as the quality is first class and prices lack the massive markups dealers enjoy (a £25 Flashback cable would retail at £60 or more in a shop). Speaker cables could be the current Van Damme round blue ones of 4mm gauge. the copper is good quality and I prefer them to the clear mega-stranded ones.

As for the Nytechs. DON'T go inside them unless absolutely necessary. The 252 receiver uses a multi-layer construction with many connecting "pins" locating top and bottom layers. Any disturbance could cause bad connections. Enjoy them while they're in fettle. if you ever need to replace them, don't worry, as external active crossovers are available and people like Russ Andrews may be able to advise on crossover slopes and level setting (he used to be an agent for Nytech in the good old bad old days). By 1980, Nytech were stable and reliable and very rarely gave trouble. Cross that bridge when you come to it is my advice.

[PaulBarnett]

yes. I bought them with the original system - my thinking was that without them, I would never be able to upgrade just the amp or speakers separately - cheap insurance - I think I paid about £30 for them.

[PaulBarnett]

Dave.

Dont know the LP12 serial number - I'll take a look this evening. The lp12 was updated in about 1990, when It got Lingo'ed. So it does not have the Cirkus or
anything later.

I think the K18 is the most urgent to look at - So I'll start looking with your list of alternatives.

for the rest - replace the cd, interconnects etc - thanks - interesting ideas there, but
I'm not in a rush to spend the money just yet - maybe next year...

and the Nytech - I've seen inside it - I'm not going to touch it unless I have to. I didnt realise that It would be possible to drive the 101s active with anything other than the nytechs - I guess this answers one of my questions - what do I do if the nytechs die tomorrow.

[DSJR]

I'll try and scan a HiFi Choice review of the ARC101's in passive mode. At least you'll get some scant info regarding crossover frequency - I don't think these people used any driver eq so you should be able to get away with it if you have to...

Interconnects and speaker cables have improved for audio use in the intervening decades and some can go off over the years (copper not quite good enough etc..). As you're using DIN sockets and plugs, you are a little more limited with cable choice unless you're an expert on these fiddly things. That's why I suggested Flashback Sales online, as they don't charge a fortune for the privilege of making them up for you.

[theophile]

I always find that a good way to prevent needless upgrades,is to go to a High-End salon,listen to a fairly expensive system(above approx 50,000 pounds).When I hear that the way more expensive system than I can afford performs less to my satisfaction than the one I have at home,then I come home happy that I didn't spend anything or go down a road of changing what I have.

Go and listen to something expensive.If it makes your system sound like a crock of shit,then you have some considerations to make.If you come-away from the demo of expensive gear thinking "I honestly feel that I prefer what I have at home",then you know that you aren't missing anything with what you have already got.

I tend to agree that you could probably benefit the sound of your system by looking at servicing the turntable with a view to modestly upgrading(Funk Firm?),along with a better arm,cartridge and audition a few phono stages.The value of active speakers is that they respond very well to front-end improvements.I've got an active system also,and I promise you that the Source becomes even more 'exposed' in these systems and assumes therefore the 'possible weakest link' status to a much greater degree than in a less direct sounding system.

[DSJR]

I always find that a good way to prevent needless upgrades,is to go to a High-End salon,listen to a fairly expensive system(above approx 50,000 pounds).When I hear that the way more expensive system than I can afford performs less to my satisfaction than the one I have at home,then I come home happy that I didn't spend anything or go down a road of changing what I have.

Go and listen to something expensive.If it makes your system sound like a crock of shit,then you have some considerations to make.If you come-away from the demo of expensive gear thinking "I honestly feel that I prefer what I have at home",then you know that you aren't missing anything with what you have already got.

I tend to agree that you could probably benefit the sound of your system by looking at servicing the turntable with a view to modestly upgrading(Funk Firm?),along with a better arm,cartridge and audition a few phono stages.The value of active speakers is that they respond very well to front-end improvements.I've got an active system also,and I promise you that the Source becomes even more 'exposed' in these systems and assumes therefore the 'possible weakest link' status to a much greater degree than in a less direct sounding system.

A bloomin' good post that :)


It's a funny thing, the LP12 now. Early ones are nearly 40 years old now and, although numerous upgrades can be done to first-generation ones, it's difficult to know where to start as everything has been changed in one way or another over the years and new parts are frighteningly expensive now. As long as the plinth "blocks" front and rear are well attached to the plinth either with strong glue or screws (post 1982), then the sub chassis, armboard, springs and grommets could usefully be changed along with the belt and mat. That's why I wanted the serial number so I that could make better recommendations.

For most speakers except perhaps the very best and most efficient out there (big Klipsch and Tannoys for instance which still benefit from the best components with the least intrusive effects in their crossovers), going active *properly* is the best way forward. I think the market is now ready for decent, well designed actives and I'm sure that more will come along. The fact that they can reveal more good and bad further back in the chain must say something to confirm this and I understand that studios have been using active monitors for years - remember, the Tannoys that 70% used to use weren't fulfilling anything like their true potential back then, as Marco and others are discovering now...

[PaulBarnett]

Dave - LP12 serial number is 59856 - I think I need to remove the board underneath to take a look at the plinth condition.

Re listening to other systems - I was toying with the idea, and this gives me an extra excuse, of going to the show this weekend.

I did tend to go to the one at the Penta when it was still there and I usually came away thinking that there was some great kit out there if money were no object, but mine sounded better that most of the systems I heard there.

So that's a plan then.

[Reid Malenfant]

Can someone tell me something please :)

These arc101 speakers that are being mentioned here, are they fitted with what looks like a paper re-coned B200 & a 1" dome tweeter?

The clincher might be that the crossover is external & in a black pod that connects to the speakers via in built banana plugs at the back?

Is it a sealed box? Probably about 40L in volume..

If all that fits then i happen to have a working pair :) Or they did when i got them home from a car boot sale :lol:

[DSJR]

LP12 at 59*** is around late 1983 IIRC (the one I made at Linn in Oct 83 was 57*** as I remember. It will have the screwed plinth blocks but not the big fillets which came later.

Older Linn plinths "brrrrrd" slightly almost like a tambourine and this could add to the bass "booiing" so beloved of vintage fruitbox lovers. the spot-welded sub-chassis and plywood arm-board didn't help either.

Right! carefully remove the top platter and undo just two feet from one edge (and the two screws front and back which stop the bottom cover from sagging) - use a #2 posidriv screwdriver. Look at the sub-chassis. If it's spot welded, it must be changed for either the glued one as a minimum, or a Cirkus one, which is much better again. The arm-board was ply, but this was also replaced with a laminated MDF one which was rather better. All of these changes help to significantly tone down the bass colouration and I personally felt that this made the deck sound more like the excellent master recordings that Linn have in their vaults. Only Kan owners would complain about the LP12's evolution IMO, as original Kans have no bass and a severely peaked up midrange.

The ARC 101's had a paper cone bass unit as I remember. I thought the B200 and B110 pressed steel chassis' were KEF's alone, but others used them as well and possibly even now in the case of the B110 frame.

[Reid Malenfant]

The ARC 101's had a paper cone bass unit as I remember. I thought the B200 and B110 pressed steel chassis' were KEF's alone, but others used them as well and possibly even now in the case of the B110 frame.
A few manufacturers bought the Kef units & then reconed them from what i can gather :) I think you'll find the bass driver in the Morduant Short Pageant series 2 is a reconed Kef bass unit ;) I could be wrong though :eyebrows:

I'm just attempting to establish if what i have here are ARC 101s without having to dig them out :doh:

[DSJR]

I could be very wrong, but did KEF actually make their own metalwork or did they buy in from a third party?

I only ask this because the famous ATC mid dome castings are/were used by PMC, although PMC didn't use ATC's manufacturing facility and apparently hadn't for years...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/avi-neutron_r4_osewood_2.jpg

Above is the much loved miniature N4 by AVI. These date from a very few years ago and were launched in 2001 or so. The bass unit appears to use the KEF B110 basket, yet the B110 was discontinued nearly 20 years ago and tooling sold to Harbeth I understand.

[Reid Malenfant]

I could be very wrong, but did KEF actually make their own metalwork or did they buy in from a third party?
Tbh Dave i'm not sure at all, what i am pretty sure of is that other manufacturers bought Kef drivers & reconed them. I mean in all honesty it isn't difficult to improve on a B200 with it's heavy bextrene damped cone & replace it with a lighter paper pulp cone to reduce driver Q ;) The standard B200 (not the bigger magnet version used in the 104AB) had a ridiculous set of parameters that would make it have a peaky bass response in any enclosure you'd ever likely put the things in :eyebrows:

Actually those drivers in the pic may look similar to Kefs' B110 but to me the chassis looks a little too square & the folded edge looks too clean as well. The B110 was a slightly different shape with more rounded folding of the steel chassis at the edge.

I have a pair of the old silverback B110s here that were used in something pretty well known that for the life of me escapes me right now :lol:

Apologies for going off topic :doh:

[Rare Bird]

Can someone tell me something please :)

These arc101 speakers that are being mentioned here, are they fitted with what looks like a paper re-coned B200 & a 1" dome tweeter?

The clincher might be that the crossover is external & in a black pod that connects to the speakers via in built banana plugs at the back?

Is it a sealed box? Probably about 40L in volume..

If all that fits then i happen to have a working pair :) Or they did when i got them home from a car boot sale :lol:

These are my old 101's

[spendorman]

I could be very wrong, but did KEF actually make their own metalwork or did they buy in from a third party?

I only ask this because the famous ATC mid dome castings are/were used by PMC, although PMC didn't use ATC's manufacturing facility and apparently hadn't for years...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/avi-neutron_r4_osewood_2.jpg

Above is the much loved miniature N4 by AVI. These date from a very few years ago and were launched in 2001 or so. The bass unit appears to use the KEF B110 basket, yet the B110 was discontinued nearly 20 years ago and tooling sold to Harbeth I understand.

These bass units look quite similar to Indian made Peerless units. They had a chassis quite similar to the KEF B110 and had a doped paper cone.

[Reid Malenfant]

These are my old 101's
Ah, this reinforces that the speakers i have could well be ARC101s :) They obviously had foam grilles with that velcro stuff & these have to ;)

Cheers Andre :)

[DSJR]

These bass units look quite similar to Indian made Peerless units. They had a chassis quite similar to the KEF B110 and had a doped paper cone.

I'm sure you're correct. These units apparently performed very well indeed and perhaps rather better than the old B110 bextrene jobbies..

[spendorman]

I'm sure you're correct. These units apparently performed very well indeed and perhaps rather better than the old B110 bextrene jobbies..

The Peerless units are used in JPW Gold Monitors and Mini monitors, not bad in them.

[Rare Bird]

I could do with something small like those AVI's as long as they don't sound like 'LS3/5a'

[Marco]

I could be very wrong, but did KEF actually make their own metalwork or did they buy in from a third party?

I only ask this because the famous ATC mid dome castings are/were used by PMC, although PMC didn't use ATC's manufacturing facility and apparently hadn't for years...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/avi-neutron_r4_osewood_2.jpg

Above is the much loved miniature N4 by AVI. These date from a very few years ago and were launched in 2001 or so. The bass unit appears to use the KEF B110 basket, yet the B110 was discontinued nearly 20 years ago and tooling sold to Harbeth I understand.

Oi, get that pish off my forum!

Only kidding, they're not ADM9s ;)

Marco.