Broken stylus!

[Bonky]

Our cleaner has just left and I noticed that the Roksan Nima arm was halfway over the turntable and that the stylus on my AT33PTG/11 MC was broken. Trying to get hold of her...but can't at present. Perhaps a mishap with a duster?


Any suggestions for a compatible cartridge for the Nima?

I barely listen to LPs any more so would find it hard to justify an expensive replacement. Perhaps 'moving down' to a MM?

Eclectic music tastes (for a 76yr old!).

Thanks,

R

[Pigmy Pony]

Sorry to hear that Richard.

If you're happy to 'move down' to a MM cart, I have an Ortofon 2M Black you can have for free - the stylus is in good shape and has quite a few miles left on it, more than enough if you only use it occasionally.

Pm me if it's something you could use.

[fordy]

House insurance usually covers this type of mishap

[Bonky]

Sorry to hear that Richard.

If you're happy to 'move down' to a MM cart, I have an Ortofon 2M Black you can have for free - the stylus is in good shape and has quite a few miles left on it, more than enough if you only use it occasionally.

Pm me if it's something you could use.

Thanks; PM sent.

R

[CageyH]

Sorry to hear that Richard.

If you're happy to 'move down' to a MM cart, I have an Ortofon 2M Black you can have for free - the stylus is in good shape and has quite a few miles left on it, more than enough if you only use it occasionally.

Pm me if it's something you could use.

Very kind of you. :thumbsup:

[Bonky]

Update: I'd like to publicly thank Steve (AKA Pigmy Pony) for his very kind offer of giving me an Ortofon 2M Black to replace my damaged AT 33PTG/2/MC. I had thought that the AT and the Roksan Nima arm were an extremely good match, but both my wife and I were very, very impressed with the sound of the 2M Black - and I think we prefer it. (Whether the AT was past its best -I don't know -perhaps!). I wonder if the arm (a unipivot) is better suited to MM rather than MC cartridges.

Has anyone any views?

Richard

[Pigmy Pony]

From what I've read it appears that the Ortofon MM carts are a popular choice for the Nima, and the 2MB at 7.2g is well inside the Nima's recommended range. You probably know this already.

Although, as we've discussed, the Black is known to be a bit of an arse to set up perfectly (certainly outside my skill set), the advantage with MM is that you can just swap out the stylus rather than needing a wholesale cartridge change. Ofc you'll know this already too!

Just my 2 pence worth :)

[Bonky]

Yes Steve, I agree. Many thanks.

Still wondering about setting the arm parallel to the surface of the LP, or doing, as I've done, reducing the tail of the arm approx. 8 mm to try to give the mythical/unicorn angle of 92 degrees.

The only way, of course, is trial and error (emphasis on the latter!)

Yours,

R

PS I've updated my 'signature'.

[Barry]

It all depends on the VTF and of the compliance of the cantilever suspension. I would adjust the VTA/SRA by ear.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Don’t mention SRA it sends some folks into apocalyptic rages!!

[struth]

start with180 degrees, subtract the first measured angle , add the second measured angle and divide by two.

:eyebrows:

[Pigmy Pony]

start with180 degrees, subtract the first measured angle , add the second measured angle and divide by two.

:eyebrows:

Like when fitting skirting boards round corners :)

[Barry]

Don’t mention SRA it sends some folks into apocalyptic rages!!

Why not? It is exactly the parameter Richard is trying to adjust.

VTA is a theoretical concept, which cannot be measured in practice. Whereas SRA can be measured directly; admittedly with difficulty and not without some risk of damage if care is not taken.

[Lawrence001]

Our cleaner has just left and I noticed that the Roksan Nima arm was halfway over the turntable and that the stylus on my AT33PTG/11 MC was broken. Trying to get hold of her...but can't at present. Perhaps a mishap with a duster?


Any suggestions for a compatible cartridge for the Nima?

I barely listen to LPs any more so would find it hard to justify an expensive replacement. Perhaps 'moving down' to a MM?

Eclectic music tastes (for a 76yr old!).

Thanks,

RDid you ever get hold of your cleaner? I've always made it clear to ours not to touch the hifi I'd rather avoid any risk even if I have to dust it once a year myself when the wife says something.

[Bonky]

Did you ever get hold of your cleaner? I've always made it clear to ours not to touch the hifi I'd rather avoid any risk even if I have to dust it once a year myself when the wife says something.

Yes, very apologetic, but not sure if she was to blame (after all, without CTVC there's no evidence). (She uses a micro-duster on her hand - apparently). I will tell her not to go anywhere near the Hi-G again (!)

I am SO grateful to Steve for letting me use his Ortofon 2m Black... a revelation! I've still to play with the SRA (92 degrees) and VTA ( approx. 20-21 degrees), but so hard to measure. I think (as Barry and others have suggested), to do it by ear.

I have a plan (I have some good cameras (but not macro), to take pictures, print them and then using a protractor, to measure the angles. Mmm...we'll see...

Thanks everyone - an interesting journey, especially as I was thinking that CDs+ RME DAC, and/or AppleMusic+ RME+ Volumoi+ Wiim streamers, was/were the place to go.

Listening to a Tracey Chapman LP has convinced me/us otherwise.

Yet to use the combo with Classical Music.

Thanks,

R

[Chris]

Being an MM, wasn´t the secret of great sound from a 2m Black more to do with achieving a very low capacitance figure presented at the phono input ? Whereas my MM cartridge (A&RP77) looks for 450 pF which is apparently a highish figure and therefore easy to adjust to, usually by adding, with an Ortofon you usually need to find a way of reducing load capacitance to around 100pF.

[AJSki2fly]

Update: I'd like to publicly thank Steve (AKA Pigmy Pony) for his very kind offer of giving me an Ortofon 2M Black to replace my damaged AT 33PTG/2/MC. I had thought that the AT and the Roksan Nima arm were an extremely good match, but both my wife and I were very, very impressed with the sound of the 2M Black - and I think we prefer it. (Whether the AT was past its best -I don't know -perhaps!). I wonder if the arm (a unipivot) is better suited to MM rather than MC cartridges.

Has anyone any views?

Richard

Hi Richard, this might explain it, I think I have it right, if you take the Effective Mass of your arm and the weight of the AT 33PTG II and its Compliance you will find the resonant frequency to be a bit low at 5.28hz , whereas for the Ortofon is good at just over 7hz. Also the 20 degree tracking angle for the Ortofon may be easier to achieve than the 23 for the AT. Calculator http://mh-audio.nl/Calculators/RF.html

As long as it sounds good that is what matters.

[Pigmy Pony]

Hi Richard, this might explain it, I think I have it right, if you take the Effective Mass of your arm and the weight of the AT 33PTG II and its Compliance you will find the resonant frequency to be a bit low at 5.28hz , whereas for the Ortofon is good at just over 7hz. Also the 20 degree tracking angle for the Ortofon may be easier to achieve than the 23 for the AT. Calculator http://mh-audio.nl/Calculators/RF.html

As long as it sounds good that is what matters.

There you go Richard, you are now on Adrian's radar, and that's a good thing :) Has a lot of experience with cartridge set up, and really knows his stuff.

[AJSki2fly]

There you go Richard, you are now on Adrian's radar, and that's a good thing :) Has a lot of experience with cartridge set up, and really knows his stuff.

Well I would not say that, just made a lot of ,mistakes along the way, talked to a few who know better and read a bit.

On another note Richard the AT 33PTG II spec has two Compliance figures a static compliance of :-

Static Compliance 40 x 10-6 cm/dyne
Dynamic Compliance 10 x 10-6 cm/dyne (100 Hz)

The dynamic compliance is the deflection of the cantilever under a sine wave signal of a given frequency (100hz), however from what I have read this can be misleading, and purely using static is not the best. a good explanation if anyone is interested is here https://nirvanasound.com/wp-content/uploads/tech-tips/The%20Compliance%20of%20a%20Cartridge%20and%20the% 20Resonant%20Frequency%20of%20the%20Tonearm%20Mark .pdf

Using the Static Compliance gives the 5.28hz, the dynamic one gives as below so may be fine.

Eff. Tonearm Mass : 15.3 g
Cartridge Mass : 6.9g
Fastener Mass : 0.5g (a guesstimate)
Compliance : 10 x 10-6 cm/Dyne

Tonearm Resonant Frequency = 10.56 Hz

But and it is a big BUT, as the cartridge ages and depending on how much it is used the compliance figure will change. I suppose for some cartridges the suspension may harden and thus stiffen and become less compliant, and for others the suspending will weaken becoming more compliant, I think that is correct. If the cartridge is new, is not that old and not used that much then it is likely safe to rely on the manufacturers figure, if not then as the article mentions using a good test record with frequency sweep tests and measuring the output on a computer or scope is probably the only way to be sure.

This is meant to be good - https://www.analogueseduction.net/test-records-turntable-set-up/ortofon-test-record.html I use this one https://www.analogueseduction.net/test-records-turntable-set-up/hi-fi-news-test-record.html

[Bonky]

Thanks everyone. I do have an old (very old) HiFiNews test LP -but yet to use it with this combination; will do so later. I did raise the tail end of the arm 5mm or so and didn't like the sound and reverted to approx.8mm down. It rather enhance the bass so a little more experimentation is in order.

[AJSki2fly]

Thanks everyone. I do have an old (very old) HiFiNews test LP -but yet to use it with this combination; will do so later. I did raise the tail end of the arm 5mm or so and didn't like the sound and reverted to approx.8mm down. It rather enhance the bass so a little more experimentation is in order.

Hi Richard,

You might find this thread useful, https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/tonearm-height-sra-misconception.35324/

Note that table in post #2 in the thread as below, where s is the increase in height of the tonearm and ?2 is the resulting angle of SRA (assuming the stylus is correctly mounted in the first place.

s (mm) ?2 (deg)
0.1 21.2
0.2 22.5
0.3 23.7

Conclusion: fraction of mm results in significant change in SRA. Note: slight over estimates

I have not checked the maths.

I believe the best method is to start with the head shell parallel to the record surface and then adjust the tonearm up or down a little at a time to get the best SQ.

[Bonky]

"I believe the best method is to start with the head shell parallel to the record surface and then adjust the tonearm up or down a little at a time to get the best SQ."

...or the arm being parallel(?)

Yes; I lack the necessary equipment to measure the SRA accurately (I still wonder about taking my Nikon , getting the lens very close, taking a pic and measuring the angles on my 5k monitor (Apple)).

Ortofon recommends the arm being parallel to a standard thickness(?) LP, so, as you suggest, I'll go back, start with that and see if the bass is tamed somewhat. I must admit I am impressed with the 2M Black (I assumed the AT MC cartridge would be slightly better - I was wrong!)

The maths is beyond me - I can't recall the last time I used Sin (but my wife has a 1st class hons in Maths, so I'll ask her).

I realise the maths won't alter, but is there any slight tinkering with the set-up depending on whether the arm is a unipivot (like mine) or a fixed-bearing one (SME?).

Thanks,

R

[Barry]

Yes, Adrian is right. Sadly some manufacturers quote a static compliance (usually US and UK manufacturers), whereas others (usually Japanese) quote the compliance at 100Hz.

What is needed is the compliance figure at around 10Hz. A good correction is to halve the figure quoted at DC, or to multiply the figure quoted at 100Hz by a factor of 1.5 to 2.0. If this is done the calculated resonance is around 7.5 to 8Hz. Still a trifle low, but it is a calculated value and in practice may not matter.

Similarly with the setting up of SRA, if you want to go to the trouble of measuring the angle of the cantilever with respect to the record surface, the true VTA will be roughly 2 to 3° lower.

As always use your ears to find the correct setting.

[Bonky]

Silly question...which is the more important to get right- the VTA or the SRA (I know they're interdependent)?

R

[Barry]

SRA, but to measure and adjust it directly is very difficult.

As I said, do what you are already doing - adjust it by experimenting with the height of the tonearm pivot. Just trust your ears!

I must have set up about 30 cartridges, in about half a dozen arms in my system over the years, and once setup, I leave things be and don't worry about it further.

[Bonky]

SRA, but to measure and adjust it directly is very difficult.

As I said, do what you are already doing - adjust it by experimenting with the height of the tonearm pivot. Just trust your ears!

I must have set up about 30 cartridges, in about half a dozen arms in my system over the years, and once setup. I leave things be and don't worry about it further.

Thanks Barry; understood.

[AJSki2fly]

SRA, but to measure and adjust it directly is very difficult.

As I said, do what you are already doing - adjust it by experimenting with the height of the tonearm pivot. Just trust your ears!

I must have set up about 30 cartridges, in about half a dozen arms in my system over the years, and once setup, I leave things be and don't worry about it further.


I do much the same. I select a few tracks that are very well known to me and listen carefully after each adjustment.

I use:-

Eva Cassidy - 'Fields of Gold' from the 7lp boxed set Nightbird, I listen for clear definition of each guitar and harmonics from the electric on and also listen out for Eva's breathiness and minimal sibilance.

Ravi Shankar - Portrait of Genius(Stereo) Track 1 - Tala Rasa Ranga, this has very good Tabla drumming, wood block, hand percussion and flute, and obviously sitar. If cartridge is set up right there is clear definition of the hollowness of the Tablas and hand hits, the block has a great sharpness and echo, and the flute is has lovely airiness without being harsh. The Sitar sit centre stage and takes a less prominent roll. The soundstage is quite wide with this.

Supertramp - 'Schools Out' from Crime of the Century, this has huge dynamics and is a good one to highlight bass and top end, if the harmonica at the start sounds thin thin or recessed then I know the cartridge is out, there is a repeated bass run and this is a two note repeat, but due to the extension in it if the cartridge is not right(arm too low at rear) then the clarity is lost and they appear to blend together.

Charlie Byrd - Taboo from Guitar Artistry of Charlie Byrd (a great album), this track is effectively laid down live in a venue, not sure where, there is great drumming with brushes and cowbell, also the ambience of the room should be heard due to its echo, near the start someone leaves and a door can be heard shutting to the left. Charlie Byrd uses various techniques but this has a load of harmonic plucking. The bass is played very sympathetically and is sometimes quite subdued, listen for the finger on the strings during its solo. If you can hear all clearly then the arm/cartridge will be set up well.

One word of caution, remember that all our systems and ears have good and not so good aspects, so just get it to sound as good as you can to your ears, and then enjoy.

[Bonky]

I'm using the whole of side 1 of Tracy Chapman's 1st LP -simply wonderful. I will see if I can dig-out the Supertramp's LP.

Thanks

[walpurgis]

I've used records with serious dynamics in the past, I found them informative when setting up Decca cartridges as some tracks tended to reveal the tracking issues Deccas were known for. (much as loved Deccas, I no longer use them)

[AJSki2fly]

Silly question...which is the more important to get right- the VTA or the SRA (I know they're interdependent)?

R

Hi

I was looking for a good explanation of it all and how to do it.

This from Ortofon is very good IMO and I learnt something about setting up anti-skating

https://youtu.be/Kr4Adsc0gFA?si=Hn1er73rojNqEV8F

This should help


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bonky]

Thanks AJ. I've just watched it - very clear and informative.

[Bonky]

I found my 1968 Hi-Fi Sound test LP (£1.30 -new!) I've settled on a tracking force of 1.61g and I increased my anti-skating to 2g equivalent.

Yet to bother too much with the SRA. The arm is still a little down at the tail/pivot end.

Thanks everyone.

R

[Jimbo]

I use my 2M black at about 1.6g VTF but no anti skate. I use a uni pivot so never felt need for it.

You may find a bit more background on this thread.

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?44922-Back-in-Black&highlight=Back+black

[Bonky]

I use my 2M black at about 1.6g VTF but no anti skate. I use a uni pivot so never felt need for it.

You may find a bit more background on this thread.

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?44922-Back-in-Black&highlight=Back+black

Thanks---35 pages----wow. I seem to be on the right lines re the Black's brilliance and my set-up.

...mind you, I do like tinkering. I'll try the 'no bias' (AS) setting later but I don't think the test LP will approve as I found I need to increase the AS setting to ensure equal distortion from the modulated grooves on both L&R channels.

R