View Full Version : CD Sound vs Streaming
I have not played a CD for about 18 months as I have found streaming far more convenient with so much content available. My much modded Marantz 63 has a drawer problem and my old Cambridge Discmagic takes a bout a week to load a CD.
Trying to avoid Christmas and needing to tidy my man cave I saw my Pioneer DV717 (of which I have 2 - on one the SMPS PS has gone) and decided to plumb it in. Left on for about 5 hours to warm up. Dig Out to CA Dacmagic Upsampling Dac (same as from PC) The first thing that hit me was that I needed to turn my pre-amp down as it blasted out as it started to play. Second was that the bass was far far more pronounced than with streaming.
The Mids and HF were much as before. I didn't think that there would be such a difference.....any comments anyone?
give it a few weeks and it will sound similar:eek:or it wont be good enough and youll be off buying a better spinner, then months down the line youll be back streaming:scratch:
I suppose these are not really in the same field/category given that streaming is via the internet.
ianlenco
26-12-2023, 10:12
What streaming service do you use? Since using Qobuz I've not looked back. Like you I presumed listening to music via the internet couldn't be as good as CD but I think it is at least as good and of course the convenience and access to a huge selection of music is a big bonus. Still not quite as good as vinyl though :)
I stream (from local hard drives rather than the internet) and use CD. I like both of them. Both sound great. The main reason for choosing one option is the mood I'm in, whether I want to interact with a physical medium or just line up a playlist. Though sometimes I have a fancy to listen to a particular piece of music that I only have on one of the mediums.
I'm really glad I've kept my CD collection. They sound great via a decent system.
I did a comparison recently streaming vs CD vs FBA and I now feel CD is definitely the best option for digital music. My new DAC certainly made CD listening a much better listening experience.
FBA came second and Streaming last.
hornucopia
26-12-2023, 14:46
I’m hoping my new (and very expensive) dac will make lovely music. Visitor just impressed by my basement collection of CDs,so. It better had!
Now….is there any value in buying a pricy digital I/c?
Lawrence001
26-12-2023, 14:53
I’m hoping my new (and very expensive) dac will make lovely music. Visitor just impressed by my basement collection of CDs,so. It better had!
Now….is there any value in buying a pricy digital I/c?Was it previously Oliver's dac perchance?
hifinutt
26-12-2023, 17:36
there is huge amounts of content not available on streaming platforms so cd`s are still very important . i enjoy qubuz and spotify and am trying to improve playback gradually as i grapple with the technology !!! mconnect, seek apps , roon , etc etc
hifinutt
26-12-2023, 17:37
I did a comparison recently streaming vs CD vs FBA and I now feel CD is definitely the best option for digital music. My new DAC certainly made CD listening a much better listening experience.
FBA came second and Streaming last.
brill , one day you must pop over and see if its the same here
yes there can be but thats where fba comes in. ive about 20k tracks off cd which is about half a tb. sound same as cd to me, and of course i still have all the cds. in fact most of my listening is still off my own cds as files. also its great if you struggle to move about much too
Great thread on this very subject HERE:
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/how-good-a-cd-transport-is-required-to-sound-better-than-streaming.35836/
Great thread on this very subject HERE:
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/how-good-a-cd-transport-is-required-to-sound-better-than-streaming.35836/
post 16 before someone mentions you need to compare the same mastering!
This link was interesting though -comparing CD to same master on Quboz 42 preferred the cd, only 12 preferred Quboz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D3gkd51dI8&t=150s
Yup.
no dog in this fight, enjoy em both.
(And Spotify thru my phone/ earbuds :D)
Ali Tait
28-12-2023, 18:14
Recently picked this up-
https://i.imgur.com/lzF41iW.jpg
Haven’t had a chance to compare to the Lumin yet, but dang it sounds good. Heard one at a show years ago and the sound always stuck with me.
I did a comparison recently streaming vs CD vs FBA and I now feel CD is definitely the best option for digital music. My new DAC certainly made CD listening a much better listening experience.
FBA came second and Streaming last.
Hi Jim, May I ask what dac you’ve got and forgive my lack of knowledge but what is FBA ?
I’m trialing Qobuz and very much impressed so far
Hi Jim, May I ask what dac you’ve got and forgive my lack of knowledge but what is FBA ?
The DAC I am using is the SMSL SU1 and FBA stands for File Based Audio.
Enossification
29-12-2023, 16:34
CD, SACD and vinyl for me. Each to their own of course.
The reason I started this thread was because I thought I ought to again try some of the stuff I used to listen to on CD. Most of it sounded good enough to me but as I have not bought a CD for years and like to find new stuff to listen to I have after about only a dozen CDs decided to call it a day.
Thanks for all the input...by the way Ali what is the player at post #16?
Pigmy Pony
29-12-2023, 18:05
The reason I started this thread was because I thought I ought to again try some of the stuff I used to listen to on CD. Most of it sounded good enough to me but as I have not bought a CD for years and like to find new stuff to listen to I have after about only a dozen CDs decided to call it a day.
Thanks for all the input...by the way Ali what is the player at post #16?
Yes I was wondering that too. Looks cool :)
My experience is it is almost impossible to make a comparison between CD/Streaming.
There are good CD's and good streaming feeds.
Rarely do you get the same master to compare the two.
Too many variables when streaming, the music player software you use makes a difference, as does the streaming service you choose and also the quality you subscribe to with that service. All variables that effect the sound. When I compared 5 services, using their basic subscription quality, there were big differences. Spotify was easily the worst and the best was a tie between Deezer and Qobuz. Difficult to establish which masters were used where, but Spotify never sounded as good as Qobuz/Deezer on any of about 50 tracks sampled, it was a very noticeable difference. I could never split Deezer/Qobuz on sound quality, very similar.
I've just got a new Streaming/Dac, the Eversolo DMP-A6 Me with Linear Power supply upgrade. I tried my NuPrime CDT-8 Pro transport into the Eversolo DAC and like previous DAC's I've used it with, it sounded ok, but not spectacular. When I changed the RCA SPDIF connectors, on the DAC and Transport, to 75ohm BNC and used a proper 75ohm BNC lead, the Transports performance took a leap forward. So there are variables with the CD route as well. I use both and enjoy both, the beauty about streaming, is I can listen to lots of music, hundreds of pounds worth if bought on CD and save to favourites the few tracks or albums I like, then try and find the best mastered version of these, knowing I already like the track/album. My experiance with the Eversolo using File/stream/CD: https://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Eversolo/A6_01.html
My experience is it is almost impossible to make a comparison between CD/Streaming.
There are good CD's and good streaming feeds.
Rarely do you get the same master to compare the two.
Too many variables when streaming, the music player software you use makes a difference, as does the streaming service you choose and also the quality you subscribe to with that service. All variables that effect the sound. When I compared 5 services, using their basic subscription quality, there were big differences. Spotify was easily the worst and the best was a tie between Deezer and Qobuz. Difficult to establish which masters were used where, but Spotify never sounded as good as Qobuz/Deezer on any of about 50 tracks sampled, it was a very noticeable difference. I could never split Deezer/Qobuz on sound quality, very similar.
I've just got a new Streaming/Dac, the Eversolo DMP-A6 Me with Linear Power supply upgrade. I tried my NuPrime CDT-8 Pro transport into the Eversolo DAC and like previous DAC's I've used it with, it sounded ok, but not spectacular. When I changed the RCA SPDIF connectors, on the DAC and Transport, to 75ohm BNC and used a proper 75ohm BNC lead, the Transports performance took a leap forward. So there are variables with the CD route as well. I use both and enjoy both, the beauty about streaming, is I can listen to lots of music, hundreds of pounds worth if bought on CD and save to favourites the few tracks or albums I like, then try and find the best mastered version of these, knowing I already like the track/album. My experiance with the Eversolo using File/stream/CD: https://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Eversolo/A6_01.html
Hi Ken, good to see you on here. I agree it is very difficult to properly establish differences due to the mastering variations between tracks used by the different streaming services and CD which as we know also has plenty of alternative source masters.
Hi Ken, good to see you on here. I agree it is very difficult to properly establish differences due to the mastering variations between tracks used by the different streaming services and CD which as we know also has plenty of alternative source masters.
Hi James, I think we should just be happy when we find a version we like, regardless of the medium, it is after all, about the music, not the Tech.
I had 4 different versions of Tubular Bells on vinyl, the original release was by far the best, anniversary and remastered just didn't cut it. I purchased 3 copies of the original, before I found a mint copy of it. Mint playback that is.
Equipment wise, I've been reducing my box count and breaking my speaker set up down to smaller, more manageable chunks. The Yams were just too heavy for me to move, with arthritis setting in. I now have ATC 20 Pro II active monitors standing on a pair of BK 10" subs, much easier to move or transport to NEBO etc.
https://www.jkwynn.co.uk/ATC20/Pics/ATC_06.jpg
Hi James, I think we should just be happy when we find a version we like, regardless of the medium, it is after all, about the music, not the Tech.
I had 4 different versions of Tubular Bells on vinyl, the original release was by far the best, anniversary and remastered just didn't cut it. I purchased 3 copies of the original, before I found a mint copy of it. Mint playback that is.
Equipment wise, I've been reducing my box count and breaking my speaker set up down to smaller, more manageable chunks. The Yams were just too heavy for me to move, with arthritis setting in. I now have ATC 20 Pro II active monitors standing on a pair of BK 10" subs, much easier to move or transport to NEBO etc.
https://www.jkwynn.co.uk/ATC20/Pics/ATC_06.jpg
Your right Ken, just find a copy of the music that floats your boat. I have found most remasters just don't sound anywhere near as good as the originals. I found this to be very true recently when I bought some Kraftwerk original pressings on vinyl. There is no comparison with the remasters.
I think you certainly did more than most with the yummies to get the best out of them, a very long term project for sure. I must say your current speaker set up looks like it means business! I may try and get up to NEBO again so may see you there if I do?
I took a look at your website and write up on the Eversolo A6 streamer. I have been reading good reviews about this for some months. I think IIWI does a great review and mentioned the Linear power upgrade. The Eversolo A8 looks a serious piece of kit too.
Ali Tait
08-01-2024, 21:28
The reason I started this thread was because I thought I ought to again try some of the stuff I used to listen to on CD. Most of it sounded good enough to me but as I have not bought a CD for years and like to find new stuff to listen to I have after about only a dozen CDs decided to call it a day.
Thanks for all the input...by the way Ali what is the player at post #16?
Sorry didn’t see this, it’s a Lector CDP 7T mkii. A few years old but it had a complete new CDM12 mech last year, so should be good for many years to come. It sounds fantastic, good enough that I’ve shelled out another couple of hundred for some Telefunkens to hopefully eke out a little more from it.
I think you certainly did more than most with the yummies to get the best out of them, a very long term project for sure. I must say your current speaker set up looks like it means business! I may try and get up to NEBO again so may see you there if I do?
I took a look at your website and write up on the Eversolo A6 streamer. I have been reading good reviews about this for some months. I think IIWI does a great review and mentioned the Linear power upgrade. The Eversolo A8 looks a serious piece of kit too.
Yeh, the A8 looks impressive, both as a DAC and Pre. I have a Pass Labs XP-12 Pre that I love, otherwise it would have been on my shopping list.
Some have said the Eversolo A6 is bright, I'm not finding that, maybe my Pass Labs is balancing that out as it is just the warm side of neutral. It has been described as a sound mid way between classic tube and classic SS.
The Active ATC/Sub set up suits my listening room, as I'm almost near field. It has plenty of SPL when needed, 300w Subs, 200w Mid/woofer, 50w Tweeter. All discrete class AB Amps with big linear power supplies. All the filters are analogue and both are sealed box designs, so they integrate well.
I will be taking my set up to NEBO on Feb 24th weather permitting.;)
Looks good that does Ken.
Looks good that does Ken.
That set up may suit someone else's room who has a near field listening set up.........?
Lawrence001
10-01-2024, 22:38
I think you certainly did more than most with the yummies to get the best out of them, a very long term project for sure.
I used to get the yummies when I was at university. Or was it the munchies...
Looks good that does Ken.
Thanks Martin, when are we going to hear this TEAC transport then? :D
Thanks Martin, when are we going to hear this TEAC transport then? :D
will bring it along - but it's just a transport. Might bring the Audiolab one too and we can see if they are different.
I hear them as different but not tried comparing back to back, as it were.
Steve Petch wants a go on a Krell so will bring one of those too.
will bring it along - but it's just a transport. Might bring the Audiolab one too and we can see if they are different.
I hear them as different but not tried comparing back to back, as it were.
Steve Petch wants a go on a Krell so will bring one of those too.
I'll bring my NuPrime Transport for a shoot out. But I've just converted it and my Eversolo Streaming DAC to BNC connectors for coax SPDIF, best improvement for my CD sound I've made.
Could use Toslink I suppose, or maybe an adaptor?
You may want to look at upgrading your DAC Martin.
You may want to look at upgrading your DAC Martin.
lol I've just 'downgraded' to the DAC in a 1989 Sony digital pre-amp :)
Topping E30 is one of the best DACs out there IMO - measures very well in every parameter, has an orange display, doesn't cost silly money.
lol I've just 'downgraded' to the DAC in a 1989 Sony digital pre-amp :)
Topping E30 is one of the best DACs out there IMO - measures very well in every parameter, has an orange display, doesn't cost silly money.
It measures well, if your happy with its tonality, when mated to the rest of your kit, that's all that matters.
Spending £2k on a CD transport and £150 on the DAC just seems disproportionate.
If your using the standard wall wart that comes with it, you might want to change that, as it does measure badly and even audibly noisy on headphones, according to the review I read. Toppings own P50 or even a decent Phone charger improved things noticeably.
I had the Topping D90SE but with my gear it just didn't float my boat, nor did the PS Audio Stellar. My Okto DAC8 is very clean and dynamic, but not as organic as my Eversolo A6. These DAC's all measure well, but sound slightly different to one another, it comes down to preference and synergy with your system to a larger extent.
It measures well, if your happy with its tonality, when mated to the rest of your kit, that's all that matters.
Spending £2k on a CD transport and £150 on the DAC just seems disproportionate.
If your using the standard wall wart that comes with it, you might want to change that, as it does measure badly and even audibly noisy on headphones, according to the review I read. Toppings own P50 or even a decent Phone charger improved things noticeably.
I had the Topping D90SE but with my gear it just didn't float my boat, nor did the PS Audio Stellar. My Okto DAC8 is very clean and dynamic, but not as organic as my Eversolo A6. These DAC's all measure well, but sound slightly different to one another, it comes down to preference and synergy with your system to a larger extent.
It doesn't come supplied with any power supply, I use a spare mobile phone charger. No noise even with volume on max and ear next to the speaker. Don't use headphones, I don't like them.
Tonality? I used a filter which is flat through the audible bandwidth so any tonality is just coming from the recording - at least until it gets to the loudspeaker and room. I'd say the tonality change that imparts would swamp and minor FR variance from a DAC so not something I'd worry about.
I would have preferred to get a cheaper CD transport but the TEAC was the only one I could find that I liked the look of and that wasn't a slot loader.
Never thought price was any marker of sound quality with regards to DACs. It doesn't cost much to get them right. Nothing wrong with paying more to get a fancy case and that ofc. I got the Topping because I liked the look of it. Just coincidental that it was cheap.
I do also have a Soncoz DAC that cost me a monkey. Also bought for the looks - No difference in sound compared to the Topping.
Had a borrow of a few DACs with high price and a back story. Not exactly the same but still a struggle to hear a difference.
Stopped worrying about DACs after that.
hornucopia
16-01-2024, 14:18
Yes,Lawrence. (A bit late!)
Late Xmas/birthday present to myself.
Watch out for MHDT Havana going soon.
The comment on DACs sounding similar……it ends up,like most things in hifi,…..to sublties. No huge differences just mi-nute ones.
Still have all my CDs, as ‘hard copy’ in a way.
Hi James, I think we should just be happy when we find a version we like, regardless of the medium, it is after all, about the music, not the Tech.
I had 4 different versions of Tubular Bells on vinyl, the original release was by far the best, anniversary and remastered just didn't cut it. I purchased 3 copies of the original, before I found a mint copy of it. Mint playback that is.
Equipment wise, I've been reducing my box count and breaking my speaker set up down to smaller, more manageable chunks. The Yams were just too heavy for me to move, with arthritis setting in. I now have ATC 20 Pro II active monitors standing on a pair of BK 10" subs, much easier to move or transport to NEBO etc.
https://www.jkwynn.co.uk/ATC20/Pics/ATC_06.jpg
Mate of mine has just installed some ATC SCM 150 ASL in his new listening room.
15 inch bass drivers should kick some ass. I will find out soon.:)
I still prefer CD replay over streaming no question, but against FBA its a long way off in terms of real performnace. Demonstrations are very easy. Although I appreciate that quite a few chaps still prefer a solid media beiong optical or dragging a rock around a piece of plastic. Thats a personal thing imho.
I still prefer CD replay over streaming no question, but against FBA its a long way off in terms of real performnace. Demonstrations are very easy. Although I appreciate that quite a few chaps still prefer a solid media beiong optical or dragging a rock around a piece of plastic. Thats a personal thing imho.
I like to browse a physical library rather than scroll titles on a screen.
I don't know about streaming services where mastering varies, but I could not tell the difference between a CD transport and a streamer playing a copy of that CD.. They should be identical and indeed they were.
Mate of mine has just installed some ATC SCM 150 ASL in his new listening room.
15 inch bass drivers should kick some ass. I will find out soon.:)
150's! wow, serious sounds and pounds, £18.5k.
150's! wow, serious sounds and pounds, £18.5k.
Yes I am looking forward to going up to listen too them in next few weeks. I would be interested in some of the smaller ATC speakers myself. Not sure what I would go for though. I have a large listening room so I could have some fairly big beast. It would just be the cost that is the issue!
Pigmy Pony
24-01-2024, 22:43
Yes I am looking forward to going up to listen too them in next few weeks. I would be interested in some of the smaller ATC speakers myself. Not sure what I would go for though. I have a large listening room so I could have some fairly big beast. It would just be the cost that is the issue!
The "Chasing the Dragon" room at the NW Audio Show at Cranage uses SCM150 actives each year. That room from memory is about 10M x 15M, and those speakers probably need all of that to give their best.
If I had the space and the money they would be on my shortlist. Well we can dream... :)
The "Chasing the Dragon" room at the NW Audio Show at Cranage uses SCM150 actives each year. That room from memory is about 10M x 15M, and those speakers probably need all of that to give their best.
If I had the space and the money they would be on my shortlist. Well we can dream... :)
Yeah my mates room is about that big so they should sound great. I will take some pics when I go. I would imagine I would be looking at the 50s or maybe 100s if they were an option but need a bit of inheritance before then!:)
Yeah my mates room is about that big so they should sound great. I will take some pics when I go. I would imagine I would be looking at the 50s or maybe 100s if they were an option but need a bit of inheritance before then!:)
Trouble with the 50's is bass, like the stock Yamaha NS1000m they have SPL but no real depth, hence all my work in the Yammies to improve the bass.
50's have f6 of 38Hz yes 6dB down at that point on a largish ported speaker!
This is why I went for the sealed 20's + 10" sealed subs, f3 is below 30Hz. If I had gone for 12" subs f3 would be 20Hz or lower.
I find sealed subs work best for bass in smaller rooms and integrate easily with sealed mains.
I also had a serious need to reduce size and weight due to Arthritis, which was a major factor in my choice.
The 150's are a different animal, but do need a larger room and two people to shift them. I think you will enjoy the session James.:eyebrows:
I am looking forward very much to hearing the 150s Ken. They are monsters so expecting huge dynamic sound.
ATC have a very impressive range of speakers and I haven't looked into all of them but I like their old school design and use of large drivers unlike many modern floor standing speakers. I think your choice and combination looks a great solution. If I were to go down that route I would go for the 12" subs.:)
You old bass head :lol:
The larger ATC's, 50's up, come in two forms now:
A). The original, which is usually black for Pro's and needs a short stand or soffit mounting.
B). Tower versions with a T in the suffix eg ATC SCM 150ATLT These have a longer cabinets and are true floor standers. They also come in a variety of wood veneer finishes and are aimed more at the audiophile market. I think a set of active 100 or 150 "T's" would be most peoples end game speaker.
You old bass head :lol:
The larger ATC's, 50's up, come in two forms now:
A). The original, which is usually black for Pro's and needs a short stand or soffit mounting.
B). Tower versions with a T in the suffix eg ATC SCM 150ATLT These have a longer cabinets and are true floor standers. They also come in a variety of wood veneer finishes and are aimed more at the audiophile market. I think a set of active 100 or 150 "T's" would be most peoples end game speaker.
I could always d with a bit more bass:lol: The ATM SCM 100s would be nice ...but £15,000!:eek:
I could always d with a bit more bass:lol: The ATM SCM 100s would be nice ...but £15,000!:eek:
Those are the short cabinet, the active 100 towers are £20,670 :stalks:
Those are the short cabinet, the active 100 towers are £20,670 :stalks:
Need to sell the car!:eek:
allthingsanalogue
29-02-2024, 11:10
Just my 2 pennies worth so I’m sure it's possibly not reflected elsewhere but I sold all my streaming kit, Melco, PSU, Bryston Dac, routers, cables etc. and bought a cd player.
One day I decided to try my cheap 20 year old dvd player into the Dac and found that the exact same cd's that we’re ripped onto the Melco in Wav format sounded better from the actual cd, not magnitudes better but better which was perplexing as the dvd player was £100 in 2022 and the Melco ran into thousands. I then bought a cd transport from Moon and the difference was off the scale and most certainly magnitudes better. Unfortunately it developed a fault within two weeks and the dealer wanted to repair but I refused and received a refund.
This left me in a hole as the superb audio quality of the MOON left me shocked but unhappy with the support, so I bit the bullet and sold the DAC and bought the Denon DCD-A110 cd player and it's easily better again.
For me the quality of the transport makes a big difference and in some cases more than the DAC, A PC drive doesn’t cut it despite what all the comments about the perfect rip.
Better than the Moon transport into your Dac?
allthingsanalogue
01-03-2024, 02:10
Better than the Moon transport into your Dac?
Oh yeah, easily! It’s the best cd replay I’ve ever had. It has an incredibly low noise floor and the sound is so detailed without being in your face. The Bryston sounded very good but a bit studio sounding, technically good but lacking that all out engagement. It was the same for the two Chord Dacs I owned. I think part of what makes a good cd player over a transport is the transport being in the same box as the Dac, allowing the designer to really tune to the two to work together.
I never really looked at Denon seriously over the years but maybe I should have. The build quality is exceptional and probably better than any other brand I’ve owned, including from all the British players. If the Denon cd player was built by a British company it would easily cost at least twice as much. It's also built in Japan which that puts a smile in my face every time.
I still have my Tag McLaren DAC20 that I bought from the WAM and had completely recapped by Kevin Green last year and that also sounds wonderful, actually my favourite ever standalone DAC. I owned one years ago and regretted selling it so when I spotted an immaculate boxed one for £200 I snapped it up, although the recap cost another £200! It's handy as it does HDCD and also indicates cd's with pre-emphasis. A side note, the Bryston Dac couldn’t decode pre-emphasis cd's but the Denon does.
Of course it’s my opinion so others will no doubt think differently. :)
Interesting!
Had half an eye on the Moon as an upgrade over my Audiolab 6000CDT.
What Dac did you have the Moon hooked up to?
Denon looks fine, only snag (for me) is lack of Balanced analogue outputs, and no AES digital out.
Shame 'dat.
kirstysdad
01-03-2024, 17:50
To throw more cats into the pigeon flock, in the 90's Audio Technica (?) sold disc stabilising hoops that fitted around the edge of a CD, adding a little mass and allegedly absorbing reflected laser light.
I bough a new but old pack of 5 recently, and they really do make a perceptible difference.
I still have a CD with an adhesive hoop that is on the top surface of the disc that is even better as it adds more stabilising mass.
If I can find stuff I'll post photos.
Best transport I ever had was a Meridian 206 that was built like the proverbial sturdy outhouse! Massively overengineered. Brilliant. Still have the scars from when it trapped my finger!:doh:
kirstysdad
01-03-2024, 17:53
Interesting!
Had half an eye on the Moon as an upgrade over my Audiolab 6000CDT.
What Dac did you have the Moon hooked up to?
Denon looks fine, only snag (for me) is lack of Balanced analogue outputs, and no AES digital out.
Shame 'dat.
Had a chance on a MOON at an auction last year, massively undervalued, let it go due to insufficient funds... Still hurts!
allthingsanalogue
02-03-2024, 01:47
Interesting!
Had half an eye on the Moon as an upgrade over my Audiolab 6000CDT.
What Dac did you have the Moon hooked up to?
Denon looks fine, only snag (for me) is lack of Balanced analogue outputs, and no AES digital out.
Shame 'dat.
I was using a Bryston BDA-2 from 2013. I’m not fussed about the lack of XLR but know some people require them. I’ve tried the coax out and it seems fine but again it’s not a requirement for me.
I’ve heard the Audiolab 9000cdt and it sounds extremely good.
There's certainly a lack of good transports. Don’t get me wrong, the Moon was superb, I still have some photos I’ll post, the problem was that it went wrong within 2 weeks they refused to replace it. After several emails back and forth I was very happy when I was told a replacement had been ordered and mine would be picked up. That was until Tuesday morning after the weekend when I was told this was 'not' the case at all and mine would still be repaired and he even apologised for his wife misleading me. In the end I had to tell them I’d sought legal advice, with that they refunded me immediately.
If it hadn’t had developed a fault I’d still probably have it. Just find a distributor who will honour the distance selling regs and faults within 30 days policy.
I sold the Bryston anyway as I preferred the Tag McLaren DAC20. However I absolutely love my new Denon!
I don’t have a vendetta against streaming as such, it's just as time marches on I’m becoming increasingly frustrated with anything that requires an app, firmware or software updates, internet connections etc. When I had my Melco it was a right pita, contrast firmware, Songkong updates that were always seemingly worse than the version it replaced. It also didn’t sound as good as the actual cd imo and left me cold emotionally as I like the pleasure of actual handling the disc, booklet etc. And yes, everything was ripped as WAV.
Melco's HD app was crap tbh, the Lumin app was much better but all of a sudden they broke compatibility so the basic functions, like play, stop, search stopped working, I mean, seriously? I asked around on the fb Melco group and it was reported by other N100 users that they had the same issue. I spoke to Melco, waste of time, they just palmed me off. I tried the Kazoo app by Linn but then they announced it would be discontinued and replaced with new Linn app but that wasn’t compatible with android! Don't even get me started on the myth that some apps sound better than others, I never heard the slightest difference, even when I turned off the tablet. :lol:
Then all of a sudden was informed that the more expensive Melco,'s still worked okay with Lumin so I thought, right I’ve had enough of this palaver and sold the lot. Lost a tonne of money on the Melco, almost couldn’t give it away. I guess streamers are like computers, pretty much worthless once you’ve bought them.
So for me, it's cd's and vinyl only. Luckily cd players are having a revival it seems.:)
https://i.imgur.com/vbyyjk6.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/c1v6oqC.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/CkZxNSE.jpeg
allthingsanalogue
02-03-2024, 02:11
To throw more cats into the pigeon flock, in the 90's Audio Technica (?) sold disc stabilising hoops that fitted around the edge of a CD, adding a little mass and allegedly absorbing reflected laser light.
I bough a new but old pack of 5 recently, and they really do make a perceptible difference.
I still have a CD with an adhesive hoop that is on the top surface of the disc that is even better as it adds more stabilising mass.
If I can find stuff I'll post photos.
Best transport I ever had was a Meridian 206 that was built like the proverbial sturdy outhouse! Massively overengineered. Brilliant. Still have the scars from when it trapped my finger!:doh:
As I still have my Tag DAC connected up I’m still on the lookout for Meridian to go with it and I know someone who has brand new CDM9 laser mech's!
There's certainly a lack of good transports.
Is there? When I was looking for a new one I was quite surprised at how many there are:
Audiolab
Roksan
Leak
Project
CEC
Cambridge
Jays Audio
Moon
Schitt
TEAC
Metronome
DCS
Cyrus
Primare
PS Audio
Plus all the CD players with digital outputs.
Okay some are ugly looking, some are bland looking and some cost silly money, but given that everyone has supposedly moved to streaming either external or local, it's amazing how many options there are for a format from the 1980s that's supposedly had its day.
Like you I cannot be bothered hooking up what is essentially a computer, with all its potential issues, to my system just to listen to a bit of music.
Computer types might enjoy faffing about with software updates and trawling round the internet looking for fixes for bugs, and good luck to them, but that's not for me.
Pigmy Pony
02-03-2024, 08:41
Me neither.
I just wanted to hear Dark Side of the Moon, how difficult is that? But: I was going to add a picture here, but the computer says no :(
Is there? When I was looking for a new one I was quite surprised at how many there are:
Audiolab
Roksan
Leak
Project
CEC
Cambridge
Jays Audio
Moon
Schitt
TEAC
Metronome
DCS
Cyrus
Primare
PS Audio
Plus all the CD players with digital outputs.
I would add Sony and Mark Levinson to the list. :)
I would add Sony and Mark Levinson to the list. :)
My list was just ones you can currently buy brand new.
Not certain but I don't think either Sony or ML has a CD transport that's currently in production.
Situation with CD at the moment seems to me is a bit like vinyl was ten years ago when a number of companies dropped turntables from their line-ups, only to scurry back into the market when they realised it wasn't drying up like they predicted.
Pigmy Pony
02-03-2024, 10:27
Well I predict that CD prices will increase as the millions who ditched the format and sold their discs to Music Magpie or on car boot sales realise their mistake and start a renewed demand.
Hopefully prices won't increase too much, after all CD production must be quicker and cheaper than vinyl. Unless the record companies take the piss, but they wouldn't do that would they?
Well I predict that CD prices will increase as the millions who ditched the format and sold their discs to Music Magpie or on car boot sales realise their mistake and start a renewed demand.
Hopefully prices won't increase too much, after all CD production must be quicker and cheaper than vinyl. Unless the record companies take the piss, but they wouldn't do that would they?
yup, cd and dvd etc are making a comeback
I'd be fine with a niche enthusiast market, offering re-issues with low levels of compression and limiting.
Wouldn't mind paying a bit of a premium for that, it would be easier than trying to find early editions of albums on CD that predate the trend for re-mastering with minimum dynamic range. AKA pointlessly ruining what were superb recordings.
My list was just ones you can currently buy brand new.
Not certain but I don't think either Sony or ML has a CD transport that's currently in production.
I checked before I posted, and both companies still make a CD player, which can be used as transport; that is they have digital output.
I checked before I posted, and both companies still make a CD player, which can be used as transport; that is they have digital output.
But it was a list of digital transports...
Both TEAC and Moon offer the exact same unit with a DAC built in.
But want an extra £500 for it which makes no sense when you can get a perfectly good separate DAC for about £100. Unless you don't want the extra box but I solved that by getting a pre-amp with a DAC in it
But it was a list of digital transports...
Both TEAC and Moon offer the exact same unit with a DAC built in.
Unless you don't want the extra box but I solved that by getting a pre-amp with a DAC in it.
That's a bit of a rara avis. What make is it?
That's a bit of a rara avis. What make is it?
Sony.
http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TA-E1000ESD.html
allthingsanalogue
02-03-2024, 13:21
Is there? When I was looking for a new one I was quite surprised at how many there are:
Audiolab
Roksan
Leak
Project
CEC
Cambridge
Jays Audio
Moon
Schitt
TEAC
Metronome
DCS
Cyrus
Primare
PS Audio
Plus all the CD players with digital outputs.
Okay some are ugly looking, some are bland looking and some cost silly money, but given that everyone has supposedly moved to streaming either external or local, it's amazing how many options there are for a format from the 1980s that's supposedly had its day.
Like you I cannot be bothered hooking up what is essentially a computer, with all its potential issues, to my system just to listen to a bit of music.
Computer types might enjoy faffing about with software updates and trawling round the internet looking for fixes for bugs, and good luck to them, but that's not for me.
I did look at several of them but at the time most of the offerings from anything with the IAG group had slot loaders and reading numerous reports about scratched discs, that I also have experience of I ruled them all out. Both the Primare offerings look almost the same bar the mechanics. The Cyrus machines are well known for mech faults etc and again slot loading.
I didn’t t like the look of anything form Pro-Ject either. I was very tempted by the Jay's but lack of UK support ruled it out and DCS/PS Audio were way out of my price range!
The TEAC was the best other option by put I’d already purchased the Denon by then!
Fussy buggar aren’t I!
I did look at several of them but at the time most of the offerings from anything with the IAG group had slot loaders and reading numerous reports about scratched discs, that I also have experience of I ruled them all out. Both the Primare offerings look almost the same bar the mechanics. The Cyrus machines are well known for mech faults etc and again slot loading.
I didn’t t like the look of anything form Pro-Ject either. I was very tempted by the Jay's but lack of UK support ruled it out and DCS/PS Audio were way out of my price range!
The TEAC was the best other option by put I’d already purchased the Denon by then!
Fussy buggar aren’t I!
Nope! I narrowed it down in very similar fashion.
I won't have a blue display so that cut a lot of them out. Some might see that as a being a bit fussy I suppose.
Blue displays seem to be fashionable. Most of my gear have a black facia and red dot matrix displays, save for my Teac DAC, which perversely has a silver facia and blue lens. (:doh:)
allthingsanalogue
02-03-2024, 14:33
Blue displays seem to be fashionable. Most of my gear have a black facia and red dot matrix displays, save for my Teac DAC, which perversely has a silver facia and blue lens. (:doh:)
OLED displays certainly are fashionable atm. I know why as they can be programmed for any such device but I do worry about the longevity of them, I’ve seen several Melco's with dim parts of the display or burn in. I always used mine with the display off. I’ve held off on buying an OLED tv over our LCD as my wife’s Samsung phone OLED is wrecked, with severe burn in although she always has it on maximum brightness! :scratch:
The amber OLED in the TEAC is much nicer on the eyes! :)
Pigmy Pony
02-03-2024, 17:18
OLED displays certainly are fashionable atm. I know why as they can be programmed for any such device but I do worry about the longevity of them, I’ve seen several Melco's with dim parts of the display or burn in. I always used mine with the display off. I’ve held off on buying an OLED tv over our LCD as my wife’s Samsung phone OLED is wrecked, with severe burn in althiugh she always has it on maximum brightness! :scratch:
The amber OLED in the TEAC is much nicer in the eyes! :)
I agree that the amber of the TEAC looks great, and imo the unit is only bettered looks-wise by Accuphase.
Not sure I agree about OLED tellies though - we bought our LG OLED before the lockdown, it was secondhand, it's on for many hours every day, and it's still good as new :) Might be a different story if used for gaming a lot.
allthingsanalogue
02-03-2024, 17:43
Not sure I agree about OLED tellies though - we bought our LG OLED before the lockdown, it was secondhand, it's on for many hours every day, and it's still good as new :) Might be a different story if used for gaming a lot.
That’s positive to hear. I often have the tv on in the background just with a news channel or something so I worried about logo's being burned in. Mind you most of my daily watching is YT or Netflix so most likely will be ok.
Pigmy Pony
02-03-2024, 22:19
That’s positive to hear. I often have the tv on in the background just with a news channel or something so I worried about logo's being burned in. Mind you most of my daily watching is YT or Netflix so most likely will be ok.
Yes ours spends a lot of the daytime tuned to Sky News (not my doing), without issues so far. And if for instance the programme watched is paused, the screen goes darker after about a minute, presumably to help guard against this 'screen burn'. Most modern tellies probably do this.
Lawrence001
03-03-2024, 08:50
I was using a Bryston BDA-2 from 2013. I’m not fussed about the lack of XLR but know some people require them. I’ve tried the coax out and it seems fine but again it’s not a requirement for me.
I’ve heard the Audiolab 9000cdt and it sounds extremely good.
There's certainly a lack of good transports. Don’t get me wrong, the Moon was superb, I still have some photos I’ll post, the problem was that it went wrong within 2 weeks they refused to replace it. After several emails back and forth I was very happy when I was told a replacement had been ordered and mine would be picked up. That was until Tuesday morning after the weekend when I was told this was 'not' the case at all and mine would still be repaired and he even apologised for his wife misleading me. In the end I had to tell them I’d sought legal advice, with that they refunded me immediately.
If it hadn’t had developed a fault I’d still probably have it. Just find a distributor who will honour the distance selling regs and faults within 30 days policy.
I sold the Bryston anyway as I preferred the Tag McLaren DAC20. However I absolutely love my new Denon!
I don’t have a vendetta against streaming as such, it's just as time marches on I’m becoming increasingly frustrated with anything that requires an app, firmware or software updates, internet connections etc. When I had my Melco it was a right pita, contrast firmware, Songkong updates that were always seemingly worse than the version it replaced. It also didn’t sound as good as the actual cd imo and left me cold emotionally as I like the pleasure of actual handling the disc, booklet etc. And yes, everything was ripped as WAV.
Melco's HD app was crap tbh, the Lumin app was much better but all of a sudden they broke compatibility so the basic functions, like play, stop, search stopped working, I mean, seriously? I asked around on the fb Melco group and it was reported by other N100 users that they had the same issue. I spoke to Melco, waste of time, they just palmed me off. I tried the Kazoo app by Linn but then they announced it would be discontinued and replaced with new Linn app but that wasn’t compatible with android! Don't even get me started on the myth that some apps sound better than others, I never heard the slightest difference, even when I turned off the tablet. [emoji38]
Then all of a sudden was informed that the more expensive Melco,'s still worked okay with Lumin so I thought, right I’ve had enough of this palaver and sold the lot. Lost a tonne of money on the Melco, almost couldn’t give it away. I guess streamers are like computers, pretty much worthless once you’ve bought them.
So for me, it's cd's and vinyl only. Luckily cd players are having a revival it seems.:)
https://i.imgur.com/vbyyjk6.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/c1v6oqC.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/CkZxNSE.jpegStreaming gets a bad name at least partly because people are trying it with older dacs with early built in USB converters. The CD player goes straight to SPDIF using the coax and doesn't have that disadvantage, so it's an apples and pairs comparison.
I was in that camp until I bought a separate USB bridge and the improvement was massive.
The worst ones are the earlier 16/48 synchronous converters which are flat sounding and frankly unlistenable (rather like playing an MP3). The 24/96 and early 24/192 chips like XMOS that came next were better but still not quite there.
I looked up the Bryston and it has an early XMOS 24/192 converter. These can sound more lively than the older 16/48 chips but they are quite unrefined and have that "digital glare".
To make a fair comparison a recent bridge should be used. Singxer are very good for example. Done this way the difference is hard to hear for the same file, and you have the advantage of being able to stream hires files as well (but that's another debate I'll not get into here).
Sent from my PCT-L29 using Tapatalk
I agree that poor USB implementation could be a reason for differences.
That assumes some basic level of control in the comparison - such as actually comparing the same mastering on CD and stream - which often hasn't even been considered, and so leads to an incorrect conclusion as to what is actually occurring.
allthingsanalogue
03-03-2024, 21:14
I agree that poor USB implementation could be a reason for differences.
That assumes some basic level of control in the comparison - such as actually comparing the same mastering on CD and stream - which often hasn't even been considered, and so leads to an incorrect conclusion as to what is actually occurring.
I also had a Chord Qutest that supposedly has very good USB implementation but it still sounded poor compared to even a basic dvd player used as a transport connected via coaxial. Obviously I was comparing cd's to the actual rip, imported directly into the Melco so the mastering was identical.
Melco even claim you need 'audiophile' hard drives. When I contacted them and I suggested I might upgrade the drive they had a fit and said they modify the drives firmware for a better sound, which is strange as they are, afaik the only company that claim these magical audio qualities from hard drives. Also an SSD was at the time a big fat no, as they are electrically noisy. Jump forward a couple of years and of course they sell SSD based units at huge price increases.
Another suggestion they have for streaming is do. It connect it to a 'gigabit' internet and the data stream must be 'slow' so 10/100 and not 1000.
I guess it's just not for me! :D
hard drives affecting sound quality is moving into the absurd I agree.
allthingsanalogue
04-03-2024, 09:37
hard drives affecting sound quality is moving into the absurd I agree.
If it were true I would have thought (not Naim bashing here) that they would have mentioned it before anyone else.:lol:
If you stream Spotify do you notice quite a variation in SQ from track to track like you would with a CD or LP depending on quality/production/mastering etc etc.
If you stream Spotify do you notice quite a variation in SQ from track to track like you would with a CD or LP depending on quality/production/mastering etc etc.I do.
The mastering (if it is actually that causing the difference..) is noticeable.
ELO tracks have never sounded particularly good to me, and I have good few vinyl albums from them as well.
They seem to sound flat, and given the instruments and amount of instruments some of their tracks have, I would have thought it would have a better range. Its enough for me to have to avoid them.
Set at its highest streaming level, I've always found Spotify to do a pretty good job day to day.
Easy integration too with Volumio.
Interested to hear others' views on this.
Sent from my SM-G781B using Tapatalk
Some sound absolutely stunning with detail, ambience and good depth of soundstage in spades....others not so great but still listenable, some are just not right.
hard drives affecting sound quality is moving into the absurd I agree.
Hard agree.
Big believer in EVERYTHING making a difference,
but this one sets off my Spidey-sense.
From experience... naa.
How the drive is powered, whether SSD or mechanical, makes a bigger difference.
All about reducing electrical noise.
Hard agree.
Big believer in EVERYTHING making a difference,
but this one sets off my Spidey-sense.
From experience... naa.
How the drive is powered, whether SSD or mechanical, makes a bigger difference.
All about reducing electrical noise.
I avoid all of that by not introducing a computer in the first place :D
Just three boxes, never had a better sound in here.
I avoid all of that by not introducing a computer in the first place :D
Just three boxes, never had a better sound in here.
That'll work! :D
I considered CEC, Project, Audio Note, basically the top loaders.
The mechanism is so much simpler, so money can be spent where it counts.
The Project top loading transport is very good, using the same transport and servo card as the Gryphon Ethos CD/DAC which costs a cool £32,500.
The Audio Note, uses a modified Philips CD Pro2LF CD mechanism and transformer coupled output.
Unfortunately I didn't have any top shelf space to accommodate one of these, so went with a drawer mechanism and much saner price point.
I avoid all of that by not introducing a computer in the first place :D
Just three boxes, never had a better sound in here.
I suppose it depends on your definition of a computer :eyebrows:
By the way Martin, I may have scored a pair of Canton CT1000/2, fingers crossed it comes off.
I suppose it depends on your definition of a computer :eyebrows:
By the way Martin, I may have scored a pair of Canton CT1000/2, fingers crossed it comes off.
ah the Cantons - the secret is out!
Pigmy Pony
10-03-2024, 21:58
ah the Cantons - the secret is out!
Secret's been out since NEBO :)
Great speakers Cantons, I nearly bought some of these instead of the Hecos. I believe they are the direct competitor in Germany?
Secret's been out since NEBO :)
Yes, the combination of my front end/pre, Ali's Neurochrome 686 Monoblocks and Micks Canton CT1000/2 speakers, was extremely good.
I was so impressed with this set up, I ordered a pair of those Monoblocks as soon as I got back from NEBO.
Then I scoured the world looking for a decent pair of those CT1000/2.
Found a pair in Germany, not surprising really, as this was the home market.
Got everything crossed now, praying that the packer/shipper I've arranged, will do a good job, as they were collection only with no boxes.
Yes, the combination of my front end/pre, Ali's Neurochrome 686 Monoblocks and Micks Canton CT1000/2 speakers, was extremely good.
I was so impressed with this set up, I ordered a pair of those Monoblocks as soon as I got back from NEBO.
Then I scoured the world looking for a decent pair of those CT1000/2.
Found a pair in Germany, not surprising really, as this was the home market.
Got everything crossed now, praying that the packer/shipper I've arranged, will do a good job, as they were collection only with no boxes.
Heco delivered my speakers from Germany with a special "man in a van" courier and only charged £60!
Heco delivered my speakers from Germany with a special "man in a van" courier and only charged £60!
These speakers don't have boxes, so have to be collected, packed and shipped by the courier company, because of this it will cost many times more.
Ali Tait
12-03-2024, 13:25
Yes, the combination of my front end/pre, Ali's Neurochrome 686 Monoblocks and Micks Canton CT1000/2 speakers, was extremely good.
I was so impressed with this set up, I ordered a pair of those Monoblocks as soon as I got back from NEBO.
Then I scoured the world looking for a decent pair of those CT1000/2.
Found a pair in Germany, not surprising really, as this was the home market.
Got everything crossed now, praying that the packer/shipper I've arranged, will do a good job, as they were collection only with no boxes.
Hopefully they turn up in one piece Ken. Agree that was a great sounding combo.
Hopefully they turn up in one piece Ken. Agree that was a great sounding combo.
Just got word from the courier, the speakers are being collected and packed Friday morning.
Its the luxury finish in piano gloss Mahogany, back in 1986 this was equivalent to 600 euro extra (if the euro had been around then).
Just hope the courier does a good job protecting them.
I sent pictures and sizes/weight, so they know what to expect, fingers crossed the ultra efficient Germans come through for me.
Ali Tait
12-03-2024, 13:59
Very nice, bet they look great.
Very nice, bet they look great.
Well they do now Ali, have to see how they look when they get to this end.
Maybe this will satisfy both analogue and digital fans .. if it ever gets made.
https://darko.audio/2024/03/the-vivia-is-a-cd-player-that-behaves-like-a-turntable/
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