View Full Version : Garrard Zero 100 Project
I've finally started on my TT Project.
I ripped out all the Auto Mech stuff off the Garrard and along with the Jelco Toneram I got off here I've bought a Linn Sondek Black spindle bearing. I've now got some lathe time ahead of me!!!
I shall be building myself a new plinth too, but after I've made the new spindle bearing support and got the Toneram where it should be - on a suitable tonearm board too...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231203/08baa222b0b4551181bd5324563561f0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231203/758dc06b4e69b9aa1b937d34e6ca5ef2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231203/e4ed86fcd277633ffbc434acfc94eae8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231203/554050fa77ed16212de167f5dfb846d4.jpg
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It has begun...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231205/9479007bc41183cab1e9b54d294a8843.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231205/4732b5fcd4fe6e87977dc9cf03fe7bad.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231205/76f60cedae190495f011899b67eafe79.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231205/8b337c422e0d573804e20b3b9f418c11.jpg
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Wakefield Turntables
05-12-2023, 19:42
:popcorn:
Is that an Amstrad head shell or Amstrad tonearm?
Is that an Amstrad head shell or Amstrad tonearm?Amstrad Headshell on a Jelco Toneram.
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Is that an Amstrad head shell or Amstrad tonearm?
looks like an Acos arm or similar. that tt came with a sort of square arm i think.
edit..missed post above.. a jelco lol
dave2010
06-12-2023, 11:14
Not quite sure what's going on here.
Looks a bit like one project I saw for cars - converting a Tesla to run on petrol, then driving it to a garage to fill up. Yep - it seems some people really did that!
I have some of the bits shown here - but I'd probably not want to do this conversion. Will be interested to see what happens, and also why!
Lawrence001
06-12-2023, 11:26
Sometimes you just want to take something and push the limit to see how good it can be. The Zero 100 deck looks great in a 70s industrial/technology Tomorrow's World kind of way so to max it out is an interesting exercise.
Is it belt or idler drive?
Firebottle
06-12-2023, 11:39
I think the clue is in the photo with that big rubber wheel :eyebrows:
walpurgis
06-12-2023, 12:50
Amstrad Headshell on a Jelco Toneram
Looks like the arm from an Amstrad TP12D turntable. The arm is as mentioned a Jelco product I believe and the turntable was built by Rega if I recall correctly. Not a bad unit actually.
Lawrence001
06-12-2023, 13:16
My understanding was the arm is a Jelco but the rest is a cheap copy of the Rega Planet. I once read that he asked Rega to make it for him but they refused so he got another firm to make a cheap copy, maybe to get one over on them. This could be an urban myth of course.
Will be interesting to see how this all turns out, must admit never seen a Garrard Zero 100. What was the original tonearm like?
willbewill
06-12-2023, 15:38
https://i.imgur.com/507e399h.jpg#rBtPP
This evening's Bearing Mount Lathe Work...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231206/c9367288f21d9de9b308ab0f8fc18d63.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231206/8115ec48d81efa3e671a965e6d56c035.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231206/8acef36d40be59a7f5a9d48e973c3d94.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231206/38205cfd4eae71825d85ac3b1934f210.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231206/8852dbbb005552fd7c87bd9b47cc199d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231206/f4a1bdb2c2b97a2c914c2291fb3d56eb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231206/e378993234ea3d90b0d4186a14d26953.jpg
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Some serious machining going on there Mark, I have a feeling you have a track record for this type of work?:)
Some serious machining going on there Mark, I have a feeling you have a track record for this type of work?:)I'm fairly proficient with my Lathe and Mill, though I've never had any Engineering training.
I've done lots of work on Motorcycles - this is my first 'messing about' with a Turntable!
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This is the reason I bought my Lathe and Mill - I decided I wanted to build this...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231207/b9737af4c13496efc8af23985f5fa613.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231207/6b854e93d1abb73b28fb4c6ae2ed3bb9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231207/d3e4494530dc29a47af527c4e1ff3704.jpg
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looks pretty solid... does it go?
walpurgis
07-12-2023, 11:46
Hub centre steering. I remember Difazio years ago.
looks pretty solid... does it go?Not yet...
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Hub centre steering. I remember Difazio years ago.Yes. Tony Foale concept...
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Beobloke
08-12-2023, 16:07
Not quite sure what's going on here.
Someone's butchering a lovely Garrard Zero 100S.
I've no idea why. :(
Someone's butchering a lovely Garrard Zero 100S.
I've no idea why. :(Because it's mine, and I can, and it had a rumbly crap spindle bearing, and a proper crap arm with tons of play in the bearings.
But mostly because it's mine and I can!
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Because it's mine, and I can, and it had a rumbly crap spindle bearing, and a proper crap arm with tons of play in the bearings.
But mostly because it's mine and I can!
Good for you Mark. :)
Wakefield Turntables
08-12-2023, 20:44
Nice to see someone else doing a resto project! I'm still looking for a new one.
Good for you Mark. :)Cheers Sir!
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Nice to see someone else doing a resto project! I'm still looking for a new one.Thanks.
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Properly enjoying doing this!!!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231218/1d4fd5a702b8a5e373faf7d83c173fe9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231218/342c30249de375dae0d2cc93ebeec47b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231218/e78894a79b39be52da916f4daaad2ff7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231218/b1bb6ad02b89a9dfd21b277291070835.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231218/e447bc345aa0771c80e95915001a5bab.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231218/381678e576cade00c5d082f6f7d024f4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231218/17d6324c707a0c79c6aede92dfbe3208.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231218/afe249c041784220c05b8bd246115923.jpg
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Great to see some proper engineering.
Wakefield Turntables
18-12-2023, 19:46
That is a PROPER piece of kit. I bet that dosen't live in your garden shed! :eek:
That is a PROPER piece of kit. I bet that dosen't live in your garden shed! :eek:Ha!
No, it does not!!!
It's Old but Gold - a Smart and Brown Model A Toolroom Lathe, partnered with my equally Old but Gold Hayes Diemaster Milling Machine...
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Great to see some proper engineering.Thanks...
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This was tricky to get horizontal and vertical runout to zero before hitting it with the endmill - thankfully my behemoth 15" rotary table is über accurate!
This completes the spindle bearing upgrade - and what an upgrade!!!
Gonna stick some bitumen Damping sheet on the underside of the ally platter.
Onto the Toneram next...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/b891d3a8eb01c5e0c3fd2fb22e6b3428.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/a2427350d6f9ed6b161dcf98e2c26450.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/c2d51083a75e641a5330589fd20f6fdf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/4964d39cf303f52b572f40a1cfd0bd73.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/cde0900be9d1b4d09b39da3211384b59.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/6b860f9396b4d92af6999153dfca79d2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/32ec92fddf8b90059dbd977435f41fb6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/721c369f842899e1106537c22357c923.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/b0924016c97105d749be529141f68a85.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/91188fa6733e076df9f8ad7e73d3b7c4.jpg
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Wakefield Turntables
22-12-2023, 16:44
Always a pleasure to see threads like this, especially on TT's that don't seem to get much attention. Makes a change from reading Technics, Lenco resto's. ;)
yeah I agree nice to see something different. Techy and Lenco have been done to death so good to see something new/old!
Really loving this Project!
Runout on the bearing plate is 10 microns and I've even gotten the runout on the pressed steel inner platter (the idler wheel drives the inside of this) down to just 50 microns!
Just need to figure out the best way to stop the Ally outer platter from 'ringing' now...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240103/e3f2bd820b7ff5cff85e951dff9922e2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240103/434723f5c3c066dfc9ff299abb28c5f4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240103/6b11bd2cc864bdc6275031ac7156bd2d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240103/89a9bd2c486e5aaa3608a88e2bc0a9e7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240103/7ee6b52c0f3d29d8a892665da7256ec4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240103/cd36f04b12c9788911ac4650fba06756.jpg
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Wakefield Turntables
04-01-2024, 08:34
Are you looking for damping under or on top of the platter?
Maybe try some silent Coat for damping under platter?
https://www.silentcoat.co.uk/collections/deadening
Are you looking for damping under or on top of the platter?Underneath I think. I'm thinking of bonding an acrylic platter on top of it too...
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Maybe try some silent Coat for damping under platter?
https://www.silentcoat.co.uk/collections/deadeningThanks for the link...
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Wakefield Turntables
04-01-2024, 09:30
Just been thinking about this. Would it not have been Easier to mill something from non- resonant material?? Careful platter mat selection will damp an extra few db’s as well.
Just been thinking about this. Would it not have been Easier to mill something from non- resonant material?? Careful platter mat selection will damp an extra few db’s as well.Yes, it might indeed. I'll give that some thought...
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Just been thinking about this. Would it not have been Easier to mill something from non- resonant material?? Careful platter mat selection will damp an extra few db’s as well.May I ask for your recommendations regarding materials?
Is Acrylic a good choice? What about Panzerholz (if I can find some) etc?
And mat on top of the Acrylic? What material, felt, rubber?
Any advice very gratefully received!
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Wakefield Turntables
04-01-2024, 21:23
May I ask for your recommendations regarding materials?
Is Acrylic a good choice? What about Panzerholz (if I can find some) etc?
And mat on top of the Acrylic? What material, felt, rubber?
Any advice very gratefully received!
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I honestly have no ideas with regards materials for your platter. I think platter mats are a dark art. I remember going through 13 different platter mats before finally settling for Tenuto on my Garrard 301/401. I went through probably the same amount again before using a glass platter mat on my 1210.
I honestly have no ideas with regards materials for your platter. I think platter mats are a dark art. I remember going through 13 different platter mats before finally settling for Tenuto on my Garrard 301/401. I went through probably the same amount again before using a glass platter mat on my 1210.Thanks for the reply!
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Working on the positioning of the Tonearm now - lots of height to gain on the platter!
The cartridge I'm playing with has a hugely bent cantilever, does anyone perchance have an old, worn out, but unbent cartridge I could maybe have super cheap just for setting up purposes at all???https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240109/a25e091e56c22d746f1e5623b5991320.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240109/e385b9cb7d5353f16d3dd5a90f5a356a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240109/f7b136ac1a41153754442039ba64f976.jpg
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Can you not lower the tonearm at the rear?
A little bit, a few millimetres. Unless I cut through the steel plate and recess mount it below.
But it doesn't matter - I'm happy to build up the height (and mass) of the platter with thick black acrylic...
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A little bit, a few millimetres. Unless I cut through the steel plate and recess mount it below.
But it doesn't matter - I'm happy to build up the height (and mass) of the platter with thick black acrylic...
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You will need to build that up a fair bit but more mass maybe a good thing. I know some of the Lenco GL75 enthusiasts stack double platters to get a bit of mass and height. Just need to engineer a nice long spindle then?
I would like to see the arm base fitting strengthened. The arm base flange only 'nips' a limited area of the turntable chassis.
You will need to build that up a fair bit but more mass maybe a good thing. I know some of the Lenco GL75 enthusiasts stack double platters to get a bit of mass and height. Just need to engineer a nice long spindle then?Yep, 27mm to be precise - or 27.1mm to be ultra precise!
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I would like to see the arm base fitting strengthened. The arm base flange only 'nips' a limited area of the turntable chassis.Having seen my Engineering so far on this do you really think I'll be leaving it like that!!!
[emoji6]
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I have no idea - there was only mention of arm height, not of arm mounting.
Got the Tonearm and Rest positionally mounted where they need to be, and drawn up the required Arm Board to replace the crappy injection moulded plastic thing on the TT - it will be 6mm thick black acrylic...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240123/311dd319f13f6d959a8b13f2a243040d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240123/584724736298d07f6edbb202398745af.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240123/0e358994bc9f8492e69eb7bba43c9883.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240123/f7e069bdde4484ac88786efd3467fa04.jpg
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Good solution Mark and will certainly tidy it up and may give some more options with the tonearm?
Thanks!
I'm thoroughly enjoying myself here!!!
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My Platter work...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240125/e4c65d40db785c55de4ac051b02e4138.jpg
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Got my platter Acrylic Discs and Armboard Acrylic...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240221/ac9a1f7922bf428347c7697efc0aecd9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240221/5c6ea0e901dc11c6116850ab56e07774.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240221/533fac8af7286f02128492a263a9a2b5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240221/807f843fee194fe1dd09673f5db8e961.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240221/c18e5301e6eb2ba3dc1f7160a7beb3b3.jpg
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And my MDF template for the required cutout in the 18mm Hardwood Ply I'll be using...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240225/58fcd229f37018225a96345b8b390527.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240225/7a9b5dd5872833497411b6a00c6de5b7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240225/9df5a07a88b338bde9e4a4e8c7bc2bad.jpg
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Moving on nicely . I bet you can't wait to hear it playing?
Moving on nicely . I bet you can't wait to hear it playing?Absolutely!
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My simple, if unconventional fixture to the Rotary Table (bits of wood with double sided tape on both sides) worked a treat.
NOW the platter is dead round!!!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240302/27987041e38767126ad40e2b020b3d8d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240302/1c7ef36222c05faa6a18f092a0b97784.jpg
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Bit more playtime in my workshop!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240311/d17ae27c5d970aa9ebe64965518e3b91.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240311/0a74fd5df3ea6ef893c8f3453c464386.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240311/21289cca385b13067c67c2df1c5dcfec.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240311/4e7617d289c7e070e6ae56e95c2dcbd0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240311/d382296fdb728895cb5bc4f9bdc22f58.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240311/91cb6f6f9fb6132926a65b72511d640c.jpg
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Onto the Lathe now to make the Spindle Adapter...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240312/57193faf8fd3419fc5df2950836bb86e.jpg
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This. Is. FUN!!!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240319/30b2db67b2b1e4c9ed2952ee9e0a8a89.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240319/e7ca3bf1c7defe1e111a7304b626e243.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240319/32a4d0f93c37e36ba5f2fb8103f7cafe.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240319/798e7a8c565781e3220515c8864c232f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240319/9f6a01e3122825124a6571e93e7a99bc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240319/6292ceb359c2f7dadf58edd2122c2c9f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240319/d03e2b20d03b9a56cde9da453c2115f5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240319/8f89f82a3e91350450a3d949455a360d.jpg
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Wakefield Turntables
24-03-2024, 20:22
Mark,
Refreshing and superb thread, keep them posts a coming. :more:
Mark,
Refreshing and superb thread, keep them posts a coming. :more:Kind words, thank you...
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Been a while, but I've made some more progress.
Need to find a close match paint to the original cream...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240703/625bad1db87ebdf4493074e1810cfc84.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240703/ebdc3a947fab223cf41e586c1f95cd9b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240703/ad0899f875e19c6de6e24f30a6fffe62.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240703/62a6de73c551013df17092f5831af456.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240703/389ce6af2f88c6744f8bf0f2527ef6c5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240703/72fc37660f66a8077f5b685701bffa3d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240703/e52cbda54f99aa8c1428fd7730891741.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240703/c3519f04e0a6cc77767496544f595774.jpg
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Wakefield Turntables
05-07-2024, 17:34
A fine update Mark, I wondered what happened to this project! As ever, in aww of your skills!!
A fine update Mark, I wondered what happened to this project! As ever, in aww of your skills!!Kind words, thank you. But I'm just an amateur dabbler!
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Worked out the rocker switch mount for the 'three becomes one' switch required to work with my acrylic armboard. A bit of scrap ally on my milling machine.
Proper enjoying myself here!!!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240707/a0920ea93f71868bd09bd3a802ef2f16.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240707/aef5f73daacd5ebbebdcc94ec5f4f2e0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240707/ba713ef3a2437ae855ab6152aef76aaa.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240707/46f0893b124012017442f30d686141e5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240707/3d01681aafcb957ee121a5bff0d92aa5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240707/897280d4e1d2c61a3961a888e987e5c9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240707/bb77185202325c5c96b2ed8f389f7dd9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240707/0e5c435b37515e36d1a8a29778e5cc39.jpg
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Thanks for putting some great pictures up as they do tell your journey renovating this turntable very well.
Looking forward to seeing the completed project
Thanks for putting some great pictures up as they do tell your journey renovating this turntable very well.
Looking forward to seeing the completed projectThank you!
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Some more progress - butyl rubber deadening - 2 layers minimum, 3 in places.
Remarkable how long this took, and I'm not 100% finished yet!!!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240815/794ce77a8f418f5771cd9376f88e5a9e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240815/39b9e0a5b08012e87fba47421605e6cf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240815/e9506d3b08e0777d29153450565b92ee.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240815/a89475faf6ae77ddcebb310b54e4b4b9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240815/5ce003b81220de904393ab7971d433c8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240815/1a5fa1ca2d1c763fc1c5c4d4bcf9532a.jpg
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That sound deadening material must have taken some time. I have had some good results with that type of material.
Wakefield Turntables
15-08-2024, 18:54
You need to be VERY careful when using damping material it's very very easy to over damp and then you have a lifeless turntable. I've made this mistake before on some of my own turntable resto's.
That sound deadening material must have taken some time. I have had some good results with that type of material.It's a pressed steel chassis, I figured adding a fair chunk of mass, and absorptive mass at that, wasn't a bad idea!
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You need to be VERY careful when using damping material it's very very easy to over damp and then you have a lifeless turntable. I've made this mistake before on some of my own turntable resto's.Oh. Errrrrrm. Well, I may be learning by mistakes here!!!
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Wakefield Turntables
16-08-2024, 19:44
Mass does not stop vibration. Something as massive as our sun vibrates, these guys (I think) know what they are talking about https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/11840/ :lol:. The damping that you've applied may work extremely well, I sincerely hope it does. Your plinth may have more of a damping effect than the material you've applied to the underside of the top plate. Does your deck have mounting bolts? If so, then it might be an idea to experiment with mounting rings around the shaft of the bolt, just like in a garrard 301. TBH decoupling the motor from the top plate will probably have more of an effect than all the damping material, altough of course I can't deny/confirm this. I've found that damping key components is also really good at getting a decent sound out of these old TT's. I use Panzerholz is small amounts. I've stopped using Sorbothane as I've never been happy with it's sonic presentation. Bamboo is a nice cheap alternative and when used can give a nice sonic upgrade. Sorry if I'm waffling, some of my musings might help/hinder, you decide.... :cool:
Wakefield Turntables
16-08-2024, 19:56
Just had another thought or two! It might be worth checking the bushing of your idler wheel (check for flat spots as well), and stripping and refurbing your motor. Both excercises are useful in stopping vibration getting into the platter.
PS I think you've been really smart with the choice of materials for your platter ;)
Really appreciate the tips - thank you!!!
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Bit of cosmetics time. Masking, filling, sanding, filling, sanding, filling, sanding etc etc! Found some Halfords aerosol cream enamel paint I'll be spraying with...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240903/a6176388c2bf3c47808fae10ed9d4ddc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240903/d40b59c2ddf71fcb268957f245e9ada3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240903/6ccd8395ff5edf2d76dc94a04b274d57.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240903/8d01ad79ab1bf0fd61537893db0039dc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240903/fb3cafced43ba534e5fb8cdcb07566a2.jpg
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And now the primer is complete...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20241004/7af0eeb4a39a5c6fc467fd421659da01.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20241004/04d9b2ab761515230474f7611eeabe9a.jpg
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Wakefield Turntables
04-10-2024, 19:50
You'd be surprised with the finish you can get from Halfords products. I've done a few Lenco resprays in my time and had excellent results. Keep up the good work.
You'd be surprised with the finish you can get from Halfords products. I've done a few Lenco resprays in my time and had excellent results. Keep up the good work.
Yeah, I used to use their products to respray my bikes when I was a kid ----badly!
Thanks!
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Yeah, I used to use their products to respray my bikes when I was a kid ----badly![emoji16]
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