National Audio Show 2010, Whittlebury Hall [Archive]

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Barry

16-09-2010, 19:22

Printed off my Visitor Concession Advanced Registration this afternoon.

I'll be there on the Saturday (25.09.10). Any other AoS members going? How about we agree to meet at the bar for some mutual imbibing?

I know Marco and Dalek Neil are going. Will John (Music Room mod), Dave (Cawley) or Alex (Nikitin) be attending?

Regards

The Vinyl Adventure

16-09-2010, 19:35

I'm going to take some piccys for/with Neil on the Saturday

The Vinyl Adventure

16-09-2010, 19:39

Dave Said he was going to be there

In the big hall at the back. Right next to the door that takes you into the main show. You won't miss us!

He also mentioned Alex being there so one would asume nikitin

Jonboy

16-09-2010, 20:29

No can do, much to my annoyance with clashing events we have our club do on at a local Farm Park, so i'm playing with my engines all weekend

Barry

16-09-2010, 20:31

No can do, much to my annoyance with clashing events we have our club do on at a local Farm Park, so i'm playing with my engines all weekend

Don't get too steamed up!

Regards

Jonboy

16-09-2010, 20:50

Don't get too steamed up!

Regards

Very good Barry :lol:

PS. i don't run steam engines only internal combustion with spark plugs and blow lamps running on Gas, petrol and sometimes Oil, but i won't hold it against you ;) :)

The Grand Wazoo

16-09-2010, 21:06

I really wanted to be there this year, but just can't do it - big commitment next weekend.

Alex_UK

16-09-2010, 21:12

I was intending on going on the Saturday, but now realise we have a friend's wedding that day. I could possibly make it on the Sunday, (with a lot of grovelling - the little 'un is staying at Nanny's Saturday night so we can have a nice lie in, coffee and papers in bed and a relaxing morning - just like we used to - I'm not sure Sue envisaged me getting up early and buggering off to Northamptonshire when she arranged it!) But it looks like most AoS people are only there on the Saturday?

Dave Cawley

16-09-2010, 21:23

Yes, Alex and I will be there, our stand is near a bar!

Dave

Marco

16-09-2010, 21:29

That's handy! Are you buying, old chap? ;)

Marco.

Barry

16-09-2010, 21:31

That's handy! Are you buying, old chap? ;)

Marco.

Thought we were going to 'max out Marco's Amex'!

Regards

Marco

16-09-2010, 21:35

Indeed, and I'll have it prepped and ready, but I'm sure I heard Dave mention he was first 'in the chair', as it were, as a gesture of thanks to all of his AoS customers for their business over the last year! :cool:

Innat right, Dave? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Spectral Morn

16-09-2010, 22:06

I will be there all weekend, all day Sat and most of Sunday.

Regards D S D L

Beechwoods

16-09-2010, 22:08

Just make sure you arrive just after Marco's opened his wallet, Neil ;)

Marco

16-09-2010, 22:14

Dave's strangely gone all shy!! :lol: :lol:

Marco.

Barry

16-09-2010, 22:18

Spectral Morn

16-09-2010, 22:26

Should we agree a time to muster at the bar?

I'm only going for the social aspect - it'll probably only take me an hour to see and hear everything. I might try and attend Martin Collom's talk on how to assemble an £80,000 system and to hear his views on cables, but then I might get thrown out for heckling!

How about 17:00?

Ummmm I think it will require both days. The show in march was smaller and it took me both days and I still missed two rooms.

It will be nice to meet again Barry.

Yes lets agree a location and a time..... maybe lunch time might be a good option ?

We all need to eat/snack.....Yes ?

Regards D S D L

Marco

16-09-2010, 22:31

Neil, are you bringing Daphne with you? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Spectral Morn

16-09-2010, 22:36

Neil, are you bringing Daphne with you? :eyebrows:

Marco.

;)

Regards D S D L

Barry

16-09-2010, 22:44

An hour was probably an exaggeration - I think last time it was more like three, but I was taking notes to write a report for AoS and so tried to visit all the rooms. Ricardo Franassovici was giving me curious looks as I sat making notes listening to one of the systems in the Absolute Sounds room! But I won't have to do that this year, as Marco will be doing it for us here on AoS :eyebrows:, and Neil for AIFHA.

Lunchtime sounds good to me. 13:00?

Marco

16-09-2010, 22:47

Yep 1pm for a spot of lunch sounds good to me. I wonder if they do venison, Barry? :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn

16-09-2010, 22:56

1 O'clock on Saturday sounds good too.

Regards D S D L

AndrewR

16-09-2010, 23:43

With a bit of luck I should be able to make it on the Saturday :)

Andrew

Marco

16-09-2010, 23:55

Nice one, Andrew - be good to meetcha :)

Just look for a bunch of unwashed miscreants hanging around the bar....

Marco.

jandl100

17-09-2010, 08:42

I'll be there - not sure which day (depends on the weather, as wifey-poos wants to go to the open air Malvern Gardening etc Show which is also that weekend).

If I'm there on Saturday I'll look out for Marco - it should be easy enough to spot him in his frock. :eyebrows:

John

17-09-2010, 08:51

I should be able to make Saturday if someone wants a lift (I am traveling from London) please PM me

twelvebears

19-09-2010, 08:34

Ummmm I think it will require both days. The show in march was smaller and it took me both days and I still missed two rooms.

It will be nice to meet again Barry.

Yes lets agree a location and a time..... maybe lunch time might be a good option ?

We all need to eat/snack.....Yes ?

Regards D S D L

Hi Neil.

If would be any help, I'd be happy to bring my digital SLR and try and help you cover some of the rooms. Not sure my scribing would be up to your standard but I'd be happy to make some notes for you to re-write.

Haven't made a decision on what day to go yet but I suspect Saturday is more likely at the moment.

Rare Bird

19-09-2010, 10:32

What a shame. Too expensive on the choo choo for both of us to Milton Keynes

Marco

19-09-2010, 11:27

If you can make your way down to Wrexham on the choo-choo, then I'll drive you both to the show and back :)

Marco.

DSJR

19-09-2010, 14:46

Makes me wish I still lived in Northants and worked in Northampton.....

hifinutt

19-09-2010, 15:29

this technical language `choo choo` and wifey-poos` way beyond me!!!!

YNWaN

19-09-2010, 16:44

I should be there with a couple of friends on Sat (we will be arriving by brum-brum).

(not Andrew though, he has other business on that weekend)

Marco

19-09-2010, 17:53

Nice one, Mark - we're all meeting up in the main bar at 1pm for munchy and drinky-poos :eyebrows:

Marco.

Snoopdog

19-09-2010, 17:58

Look for me in "the tight bastard's brought his own sandwiches" corner:)

Ammonite Audio

19-09-2010, 20:05

Look for me in "the tight bastard's brought his own sandwiches" corner:)

He's not joking ;)

colinB

19-09-2010, 20:14

Will anyone be going on Sunday?
And, is there a piece of equipment in particular anyone is going to check out?

chris@panteg

19-09-2010, 20:18

Guy Sargeant ' will be demming new 845 monoblock SET Puresound amps , 27 watts .

Got to be worth a visit to hear those:)

colinB

19-09-2010, 20:25

Look out for that one, thanks Chris. Im hoping Icon Audio will also be demoing.
My most treasured bit of kit is my PS1 phono stage and i would like to hear the whole amplification set up.

baron

19-09-2010, 20:47

Mrs Baron & I should be there Saturday.

Rare Bird

19-09-2010, 20:51

No one from Sheffipoo gonna give us a liftipoo :lol:

Marco

19-09-2010, 20:53

Why not find out if Dave K is going? ;)

Marco.

Rare Bird

19-09-2010, 20:59

O i dunno i'm not a scrounger :) I'd love to meet more faces

Marco

19-09-2010, 21:06

Lol - if you want I can PM you his email addy (if you don't have it already) and you can find out if he's going.

Other than that unfortunately I can't think of anyone else who's going to the show in your area.

See if you can get down, though, 'cos I'm sure it'll be a giggle :eyebrows:

Marco.

Rare Bird

25-09-2010, 18:37

I hope we get some pickkies when you all get back :)

DSJR

25-09-2010, 19:13

I can imagine all these anoraks lusting after the audio bling on show, taking millions of pictures and notes like turbocharged train-spotters and then collapsing in the bar verbally taking the rest of us apart :lol:

If I was still in Northants and alive (;)), I'd have been there with them.....

bigmoog

25-09-2010, 19:19

I used to love the annual hfn heathrow show.....the tiny rooms, the big rooms, the ab sounds queues, the terrible dems, the average ones, the surprisingly awesome ones (that was a rarity,,,,,,) , the brochures, the dribbling over the kit......gawd it was a nerdle's delight......I hope this years Chester Group show is a goodie, cant wait for the pics :)

AndrewR

25-09-2010, 21:28

.....I hope this years Chester Group show is a goodie, cant wait for the pics :)

...working on it. There's going to be a lot of yummy juiciness.

Andrew

bigmoog

25-09-2010, 21:54

...working on it. There's going to be a lot of yummy juiciness.

Andrew

hurry up :)

highlights? lowlights? best in show? :cool:

AndrewR

25-09-2010, 22:12

:lol:

Here's something to be going on with: http://www.hifiwatcher.com/?p=876

For me the best-in-show was the Audio Note room. The VTL kit in "The Right Note" room came pretty close and the Synergistic Research was a surprisingly good newcomer for me despite being "fully foo'ed up". Also loved the little Eminent Technology LFT-16 loudspeakers in the Origin Live room.

Andrew

aquapiranha

25-09-2010, 22:23

Those Kingdoms look a bit different from the old ones! They look bloody ace! I dread to think how much they cost :-(

http://www.tannoy.com/ResidentialSummary.aspx#&&/wEXBgUEU1NJRAUDMTE4BQNTSWQFAzExOAUCRlQFBnN0cmlucgU DQmFuBR5+L2ltYWdlcy9zZXJpZXNiYW5uZXJzLzExOC5qcGcFA VQFAUQFA1BJRAUDMzY5Bz/n7YdmPXV3y6bXGIRBvepkZRc=

AndrewR

25-09-2010, 22:36

Those Kingdoms look a bit different from the old ones! They look bloody ace! I dread to think how much they cost :-(

It's strange in that they look unique and retro at the same time. They are awesome - visually and aurally.

Andrew

aquapiranha

25-09-2010, 22:38

Yes Andrew I have just been reading the bumf on the Tannoy site, they must sound awesome! Unfortunately it is going to mean either a bank job or six numbers for me!

Marco

25-09-2010, 22:42

Those Kingdoms look a bit different from the old ones! They look bloody ace! I dread to think how much they cost :-(

A 'mere' £35k, matey! They were rather good, but would I swap 'em for my Lockwood Monitor Golds?

Erm, no! ;)

Well...at least not in terms of out-and-out performance on the evidence of them driven by a Wadia CDP/Music First Silver pre/[some American make - I forget the name] valve power amp. To analyse them properly I'd need to hear them on the end of my own system.

Very nice meeting you, Andrew - look forward to reading your report! :cool:

Right, I'm off to me scratcher - it's been a long day... I'll comment more tomorrow :goodnight:

Marco.

Barry

25-09-2010, 22:44

It's strange in that they look unique and retro at the same time. They are awesome - visually and aurally.

Andrew

They were having some problems with the room, or rather with the display panelling situated behind them. Also the tweeters are above ear height when you are sat down (well they are for me), so singers appear to be too tall and percussionists can sound as if their kit is up on a 4' high podium. Things sound a lot better if standing - but who wants to do that?

Otherwise, they did sound pretty impressive.

Regards

aquapiranha

25-09-2010, 23:01

Impressive Barry? For 35K I would have expected a fair few choice words of elation, rather than merely -impressive! Still, it is academic anyway.

AndrewR

25-09-2010, 23:48

Things sound a lot better if standing - but who wants to do that?

Otherwise, they did sound pretty impressive.

Ah.. I was standing.

Andrew

jandl100

26-09-2010, 07:15

I went on Saturday.

The 1st hifi show I haven't really enjoyed much. :scratch: I left in under 3 hours - I usually happily spend 5 or 6.

Perhaps my MBL speakers have spoiled me for most other kit?

The only really great sounds I heard were from a huge pair of active Adam Tensor ribbon hybrid speakers. £36k. Yeah, I could live with those! - fed by McIntosh digital source and pre-amps. :eek:

Too many fekkin' Focal speakers, that's for sure. After a few doses of their stark emotionless portrayal of music my heart sank when I entered yet another room with the horrid things in. A tonally thin and stark sound masquerading as transparency; yuk. :(
OK, the Right Note room with huge VTL valve amps and umpty-ump £k of mains foo wasn't too bad with Focal Scala Utopias, but I still wouldn't choose to live with it. But it was great seeing Luke Manley in that room though. A US valve amp legend. :respect:
IMO - YMMV :)

Those big Tannoys weren't too shoddy, either. But the bass sounded like it was about 10dB up ... OK for you bass-heads! :lol:

Next year? Hmm ... dunno - I might restrict myself to Bakeoffs and Scalford in future.

AndrewR

26-09-2010, 07:45

But it was great seeing Luke Manley in that room though. A US valve amp legend. :respect:

He was wearing a nice suit. I know his name but not his appearance ...so there was me thinking he was very knowledgeable for a salesman :doh: :lol: Just thought I'd let you know that I now feel very silly.

Andrew

Marco

26-09-2010, 08:50

jandl100

26-09-2010, 09:08

What did you think of the Audiofreaks room? For me, that was the sound of the show... a genuine dose of spine-tingling realism :eek:

:eyebrows:
I think that we are just after VERY different things when it comes to audio, Marco! :)

I hated the Audiofreaks room. Avalon speakers always sound bland and boring to me. The ultimate elevator music for me, I'm afraid.

Sorry, I didn't like the JA room with the McIntosh amps and huge Adam speakers at all.

Whereas I thought the Adam Tensor speakers were superb. Way out in front of anything else at the Show for me! I don't usually go much for McIntosh gear - but I thought the system really gelled well!

Funny ol' game, innit! :cool:

Next best for me was the GT Audio room with the huge (Avantgarde?) yellowy/orange horns - wonderful coherence, shockingly real dynamic attack, and just a hugely wide-open enjoyable musical sound. I just LURVE horns done well!

Ah, yes, OK. A very good sound I agree - and quite distinctive. But I owned Avantgarde Unos for about 5 years, so I guess it was a case of 'been there, done that' and taking that type of presentation for granted!! :mental: :)

Out of interest, what did you think of the NVA room?

I avoided it like the plague, I am afraid - I've had enough of the inimitable RD and his narrow-minded rantings.

YNWaN

26-09-2010, 09:25

Sound of the show (for me) was the Cymbiosis room with the new, top of the range, Kudos speakers.

jandl100

26-09-2010, 09:35

Sound of the show (for me) was the Cymbiosis room with the new, top of the range, Kudos speakers.

Hmm - yeah, I quite enjoyed those. But a bit tight-assed and thumpy for me.

Another good sound was the DPA room with their electronics and little Wilson Benesch Arcs (?) - only classical music allowed, so maybe that explained it! - We played a CD I took along of some Mozart string quintets. a haven of genteel musicality. :eyebrows:

DSJR

26-09-2010, 09:37

Jandl100 - Quote of the year???

"...A tonally thin and stark sound masquerading as transparency; yuk."

So much "hifi" over recent years is balanced thus with the above intention IMO...

Marco, regarding your comments on modern Tannoys sounding spitty, I appreciate you've heard far more of them than I have, but the smaller Prestige models don't take your fillings out at all. In fact they sound like raw versions of Harbeths - and I mean that with respect to both parties... I must admit the Dimension range shared the modern KEF acidity and that super-tweeter pod was measured at coming in far too low (around 8 - 9KHz I remember - and this is very audible). if the new Kingdom is slightly similar, I'm not surprised if the sound changed too much as you stand up and sit down.

I've been away too long and need to be refreshed with some of this stuff.

Theo

26-09-2010, 09:51

Went yesterday and met up with Richard and Jason in the NVA room. First impressions of the Cubix speakers were positive: Kraftwerk bounced around nicely with great rhythm, Elgar just filled the room convincingly. The room was small, but they certainly work well without chucking the sound at you directly. The Music Computer is a sublime piece of engineering: for the computer music virgin, this potentially has a huge market. Cost will be all-important, but selling it on the principle of a complete solution - computer, storage, CDP, DVD, DAC - will be crucial. Nice to get a listen of that Bert Kaempfert LP as well - the best sounding Nazi marching band I've ever heard

The Statement amps are - aesthetically - stunning. Pity one blew up...

Far too many speakers at the show were tantamount to assaulting the listener. Lots of Focals around at the end of huge muscle amps pummelling the ears. You can guess the test discs in every room too - lots of Dire Straits, Patricia Barber, et al. It's not that they could complain about the room sizes - some of them were huge - but they couldn't manage some horrible bass bloom in a lot of them. Very disappointing.

The Linn plinths in the Cymbiosis room were beautiful, even the top spec LP12 sounded great (as it bloody should at £17k). The new Kudos speakers were sounding good too. Two speakers were a big surprise for me, and one a disappointment. The Avantgarde Acoustic Duo G2 horns were fantastic and just so effortless, even though the big yellow horns would get short shrift in this house (red maybe). Secondly, the Jamo flat baffle speakers with 2x15" units (also in yellow - strange) were equally wonderfully dynamic. However, I could not get on with the large new Tannoy Kingdoms at all, whether stood up or sat down. Didn't like the speakers in the Tom Tom room at all.

There were lots of things to see, but far too many systems being demo'd were the top of the range stuff, with the starter stuff on static display.

I'm not sure what the official statistics will be, but I thought the place to be packed: corridors were teeming with people trying to get into rooms. However, there were lots of lost souls trying to find their way round the most confusing show layout I have ever encountered - you may still find the same people today, still trying to get out.

Guinness is £3.95 and was ok. Didn't do lunch in the restaurants, but the sandwiches were rubbish - bring your own. Car park to show very simple, and well controlled.That's the end of the public service announcement - if you're going today, have fun!

bigmoog

26-09-2010, 09:59

interesting reviews so far. what was the TT count and anything new and interesting in the analogue realm, im not interested in digital/computer audio.....i buy and read macworld for that :lol:.....and wot were the ABsounds suites parading? and many tube amps? anything interesting? :)

Snoopdog

26-09-2010, 10:33

Hi Jerry,

Nice meeting you again at the show :)

You missed your free drink at the bar (as did Twelvebears), as I had promised to all AoS-ers ;)

I agree with you that there were too bloody many Focal speakers, although I thought some of them sounded rather good, particularly the ones being driven by the big Mark Levinson amps (I forget which room that was in).

What did you think of the Audiofreaks room? For me, that was the sound of the show... Zanden CDP, Kuzma T/T, Karan pre and (huge) power amps, and Avalon speakers - not the last word in low-end heft, but goodness me the midrange and top end were superb, giving vocals and acoustic instruments a genuine dose of spine-tingling realism :eek:

The Karans (which I believe were Class A) were the closest solid-state amps I've heard to good valve amps - sublime!

Next best for me was the GT Audio room with the huge (Avantgarde?) yellowy/orange horns - wonderful coherence, shockingly real dynamic attack, and just a hugely wide-open enjoyable musical sound. I just LURVE horns done well! :exactly:

I did enjoy the Tannoy Kingdoms, but when I was in the room they were being played far too quietly to come alive properly, as I know big Tannoys can (even after I asked the guy to turn the sound up). The partnering electronics were ok, but nothing like as open and dynamic sounding as I get from my own kit.

Crucially for me, though, they lacked the coherence I'm used to with the Monitor Golds being a single large dual concentric, and so one gets a true 'point source' effect. The Kingdoms, having a separate bass driver and super-tweeter, lacked such coherence, and one was left with hearing sound frequencies emitting from various drivers, rather than music gelling as a cohesive whole in a huge wall of sound, which I'm used to with my Monitor Golds.

Furthermore, there was distinct 'spitiness' and forwardness in the treble, which unfortunately I hear in all modern Tannoys, which I suspect would annoy me with prolonged listening, particularly if recordings were less than perfect. The Monitor Golds don't possess that characteristic and are much more even-handed through the mid and top-end, whilst without being any less revealing.

So whilst I did enjoy the Kingdoms, I left realising what a bargain I've got with the £2.5k I've spent on the Lockwoods!

Sorry, I didn't like the JA room with the McIntosh amps and huge Adam speakers at all. I like McIntosh amps, so wouldn't lay the blame there, but for me it was a system that didn't gel together properly, and music sounded disjointed as a result, and it was somewhat 'boom 'n' tizz'. I think the speakers were way too big for the room....

Each to his or her own, though! Out of interest, what did you think of the NVA room?

I'll comment more on other highlights for me later.

Marco.

I went to the show yesterday in company with Shuggie.

We got there about 10:30 and although it was a nice sunny day, it was a bit nippy standing outside in the queue waiting to get in! I think Chester Group should consider two admission stands at that entrance in future to cope with demand:(

It was good to meet up with Marco and his charming wife, Del and to put some names to faces in the bar at lunchtime. John, Neil (Dalek Supreme) and Barry. I missed the name of the young chap in black sitting between Marco and Shuggie!

I agree with Marco about the Audiofreaks demo. Love him or hate him, Branco always manages to produce a good souns at shows. A combination of his chosen stable of components and attention to detail in setting up the room, although I was a bit surprised to find that he wasn't using his usual arrangement of Acustica Applicata DaaD's. From the literature, it looked like he was using Advanced Accoustics wall panels at the primary reflection points. I was treated to a rendition of The Planets and was able to make a useful reference comparison as he was using the same preamp and speakers I use at home and I am familiar with the sound of the big Karan amps. His choice of weapons on this occasion being an SA-450 power amp (although I still think they look better in all black!).

I wandered aimlessly around the rest of the rooms, stopping now and then for a listen.

I checked out Audioworks demo using a full suite of dCS sources with David Berning pre and Quadrature monoblocs into FoCal Skalas via MIT cables.

Again, I was familiar with the sound of these components used as a system, having auditioned the very same pre/power combo at home and listened to the Utopia range of speakers at Blade Audio regularly.

I sat and listened to a single CD that I brought with me, Holly Cole - It happened one night. A 1995 live recording that I know very well. I sat centre stage, but didn't get the same feeling of depth and pin-point imaging I realise at home but the sound was pleasing all the same.

I also lent an ear to the new Cabasse speakers in Coherent's room while chatting to Tony. A very nice sound and it inspired me to get online when I arrived home and order the latest Legacy CD edition of Couldn't stand the Weather by Stevie Ray Vaughan:).

I stopped off at Diverse Vinyl and Stamford Audio for the obligatory thumb through the LP's and bought some MFSL sleeve liners!

Looking at the prices asked:eek:, I was reminded how lucky I was to have amassed my record collection throughout the 70's & 80's:)

I ordered my latest vinyl fix online from ClassicLP's taking advantage of their 30% off which I think ends at midnight tonight.

Apart from the rooms mentioned I was generally uninspired by the latest offerings from the hifi industry and don't think I will bother returning to Whittlebury Hall in future. In fact, I say that after every hifi show I have attended in recent years with the possible exception of Scalford Hall which I found an enjoyable experience.

As always, it was an opprotunity to meet forum members old and new and ponder on this peculiar fascination of ours!!!!!

YNWaN

26-09-2010, 10:43

There were a lot of turntables of all kinds.

I was distinctly unimpressed by Avant Garde horns.

The Adams speakers had a lot of bass (which was fun), but I was less impressed by the actual bass differentiation.

The large panels in the Origin Live room sounded exactly how panels coupled to cones are supposed to - the bass was significantly out of time with the rest of the spectrum. This effect was so pronounced that we wondered if the TT was running slow - a bit of platter rotation counting confirmed it was not. They played some Tracy Chapman that we were all familiar with and we were not impressed - weird timing and general lack of attack.

I (we) listened to all the Absolute Sounds rooms - The Magico speakers were sounding the best I have ever heard them - less laid-back than usual. The Wilson Audio Sophia MK3 also sounded very promising but unfortunately none of the music played was really to my taste.

We all thought that Tannoy were doing a good job.

The Audiofreaks room sounded technically good but other than that it failed to excite us. One of our party heard it later with the Kuzma Stabi turntable as a source and though it excellent (I only heard CD).

I did listen to the NVA room - probably the less said about that the better.

clive7164

26-09-2010, 11:29

Theo
what is The Music Computer,I have never heard of it,I take it its a new product

Clive

Alex_UK

26-09-2010, 11:31

Regrettably a nightmare week with work a late night at a wedding last night and continuing man-flu (I've not really been able to hear anything for over a week now and it is getting right on my wick...) mean I'm staying curled up at home with the heating on and crap telly..

A real shame as I was hoping to meet some of you but on the plus side I won't be tempted into spending money on kit I can't afford! Maybe next time.

Theo

26-09-2010, 12:00

Theo
what is The Music Computer,I have never heard of it,I take it its a new product

It is - developed by a forum member and to be delivered under the NVA name. It looks like the Statement pre-amp. It's a nifty bit of kit, currently in prototype format. It will be interesting to see how it develops.

chris@panteg

26-09-2010, 12:29

I went yesterday with my pal John and his lovely girlfriend Ru li

My fave sound was the Audionote room , i agree with everyone about the Focals i thought i liked them at Scalford but the more and more different speakers in the range i heard yesterday ' the more i was aware of a grating thinness to the presentation and it gets a bit tiring.

Both John and i disliked the Audiofreaks room especially dissapointing was the Kuzma ,
we actually both liked the Mcintosh set up and Adam speakers.

John quite liked the NVA room , i thought it too small a room myself , i was keen to hear the Avid Diva SP and was a little disapointed as i thought it sounded a bit fierce and forward but again the room was too small.

The Cimbiosis room was ok ' we heard the full blown LP12SE , nice and tidy but still sounds like the LP12 as i remember it! a bit left and right stereo and no depth , but certainly much more refined and detailed sounding.

There was one room which was so awful that Ru Li just got up and walked out after 1 minute ' though i can't remember what it was:doh: it:doh: seemed to me to be out of phase, very strange.

The little system in the DPA room was surprisingly very pleasant , the Chord room with the big Jordan's sounded very good to us and strangely Max Townshend seem to be very keen on these .

We enjoyed the show , and the venue is good.

chris@panteg

26-09-2010, 12:47

As a side note ' we had a look round Russ Andrews stand and John was intrigued by this gadget called a Silencer (he has not been to a show in years) so started reading aloud the blurb ' aparently it stops mains interference in tandem with a noise sniffer ! at this i was in histerics ,and Russ turned round and gave me the dirtiest look ! and tried to explain the theory behind it and offered a free trial .

We decided to make a swift exit , i didn't mean to offend Russ ! it was just the way John made it sound so funny i couldn't help it .

YNWaN

26-09-2010, 12:53

Theo
what is The Music Computer,I have never heard of it,I take it its a new product

Clive

It's just a music server - a computer dedicated to storing music files.

chris@panteg

26-09-2010, 17:07

Nice pic of a NAS , just for you Dave:)

http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/mm/show/images/IMG_0432.jpg

chris@panteg

26-09-2010, 17:09

Turntable porn , pics from PFM not me .

http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/mm/show/images/IMG_0446.jpg

chris@panteg

26-09-2010, 17:11

The best looking LP12 i have ever seen

http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/mm/show/images/IMG_0520.jpg

chris@panteg

26-09-2010, 17:14

Guy's new monoblocs , shame i didn't hear them but they look sexy.

http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/mm/show/images/IMG_0284.jpg

YNWaN

26-09-2010, 17:14

There were a couple of NA decks at the show, at least four LP12's and four Brinkmann Bardo's - together with a bunch of other turntables. Some rooms only played records (like Cymbiosis' where they had two top spec LP12's - one with an Ekos SE/Akiva and the other with an Aro and top end Dynavector).

The wenge plinth on the LP12 did indeed look very striking.

chris@panteg

26-09-2010, 17:18

http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/mm/show/images/IMG_0345.jpg

chris@panteg

26-09-2010, 17:19

http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/mm/show/images/IMG_0405.jpg

chris@panteg

26-09-2010, 17:22

DCS one hell of a CD player

http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/mm/show/images/IMG_0489.jpg

Ammonite Audio

26-09-2010, 17:27

It's just a music server - a computer dedicated to storing music files.

Yes it is, if you want to be ungratious, but it's sensibly optimised for that purpose and pretty much uniquely designed to look and act like a piece of smart (and silent) audio equipment, while still being able to do mundane PC stuff and AV duties too. Having heard an early version, I am very surprised at the performance of this thing. I popped into the NVA room a couple of times and it was clear that a great deal of interest was being shown in it - I never got a chance to have a chat with Jason, who designed it for NVA.

YNWaN

26-09-2010, 17:43

The Vinyl Adventure

26-09-2010, 17:44

The only really great sounds I heard were from a huge pair of active Adam Tensor ribbon hybrid speakers. £36k. Yeah, I could live with those!

Tensor alphas... Thems the big big big big brother of mine... They are bloody amazing if you ask me... Seemingly perfectly capable of the most subtle sounds and the most powerful... I'd love them... But a bigger house would be required... Not to mention the huge funds

hifinutt

26-09-2010, 18:22

i must say i was rather amazed by what bjorn got out of an humble ipod in the nordost room. the dcs debussy looks intersting but at 7.5k can`t quite stretch that far!!!

the martin logans ethos were utterly entrancing with audio reasrch stuff

aquapiranha

26-09-2010, 19:31

I have seen quite a few pictures on various sites and it would appear that the plinky-plonky music for demonstration was in evidence. Was anyone demonstrating kit with proper music? or were they all using stuff that would sound good on a tranny radio?

DSJR

26-09-2010, 19:36

Thanks for the turntable pics. is it the camera angle or are those tapered Rega and SME tonearms set too high? judging by the reflection on the vinyl's surface, the bottom edge of these arms is parallel...

I'm nit picking - apologies.

Re the Figlet/NVA Music Box/Server, the people who will buy this are the NVA fans who've never "got" the streaming thing, in the same way the Uniti and Unitiqut do for the Naimies who barely got into CD, let alone streaming..

jandl100

26-09-2010, 20:14

Hey, Marco !!

... I am not alone ...

(post stolen from the Wigwam)

Audiofreaks did nothing to convince me that Avalons sound anything other than totally bland.

:ner:

Yeah, I know - we're both deaf. :)

Marco

26-09-2010, 20:19

Lol - I'm compiling a reply to all the recent posts, Jerry, including yours (there are reasons for what I heard, I think), but that won't be posted until later, as I'm currently otherwise occupied :cool:

Marco.

Spectral Morn

26-09-2010, 21:19

Just back an hour or so ago.

Really nice meeting Marco, Del, Andrew, Shuggie, Snoopdog. John and Barry. The drinks and lunch were greatly appreciated by your's truly. I ended up eating Marco's lunch.

First thoughts are that the show was too big for just two days, it was very hard to get round all the rooms, take photos and write notes on what was what and how things sounded.

The layout of the show throughout the maze of corridors was not good, in fact many struggled to find there way around the show and that was a common theme among both punters and the trade. The vibe of the show was good and upbeat but many struggled with awful rooms and really crap mains quality + noise pollution from other exhibitors.

Today offered a much better quality of sound over Saturday, however some poor sounding rooms from Saturday were still poor today. One thing I think worth pointing out that many exhibitors are very passionate about what they do and were frankly beside themselves with frustration at how poor their kit was performing in the show conditions.

I spent part of Friday evening helping one company set up a room and the attention to detail being employed by the exhibitors was refreshing to see but a bad room is a bad room: though they did managed to produce a good sound regardless of the room.

While the Park Inn has its issues, I for one feel that the rooms there are generally better and the Park Inn has a much better layout.

Regards D S D L

Barry

26-09-2010, 21:48

I have a love-hate relation with audio shows, however having attended the Whittlebury Hall show last year and found it of use, I decided to give it a repeat visit. This time it was more of a social occasion; an excuse to empty Marco’s wallet on drink and to meet some of the AoS membership.

I hadn’t intended to write anything, but Neil (Dalek Supreme) prevailed on me to write something and to take some photos as well; so off I drove to Whittlebury on a lovely late summer’s day. Had I known the trouble I would have with road works on the M1, I might not have set off at all – I arrived an hour and a quarter later than intended, and having done so, could only park in some farmer’s field. Not a good frame of mind to approach the show!

Clearly I didn’t visit all the rooms; there was neither enough time, nor would I want to do so. I visited about twenty rooms with mixed results. What follows is my, very personal, take on it all.

Zouch Audio, a purveyor of audio goodies to the wealthy and new to me, were demonstrating a very expensive system (£35,350) consisting of the Musical Fidelity’s AMSCD CD player, M1 DAC, Primo preamp and AMS100 power amplifier, all emptied into a pair of Focal Electra 1000 Be II speakers. At that price it should have been stunning – it wasn’t. No nasties or faults I could put my finger on – it just didn’t enthral me or do anything for me, so I left after a couple of minutes.

Burmester were demonstrating in a much larger room to good effect, despite an occasional ‘room-boom’, though they were playing some wonderfully toe-tapping reggae. Aesthetically there was something complementary and satisfying about the ‘bling’ mirror-chrome finish of the Burmester electronics (CD player, DAC and amplifier) to play reggae.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/002-5.jpg?t=1285530932

Creek/Epos were making horrible noises in a room that was far too large for the speakers. At best the sound was ‘impressive’; a term of opprobrium with all the connotations it suggests, and at worse (depending on what was being played), one with a ‘spitty’ treble and thick muddy bass.

Tannoy were demonstrating their Kingdom speakers. Visually big and imposing and finished with the usual excellent care and attention, these speakers detained me for a while. At £35,000 a pair they are, I presume, Tannoy’s flagship model.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/001-5.jpg?t=1285529818

Unfortunately, there were some problems with them, or rather with the speaker/room/listener arrangement. There was, again, the rather frequent room boom ‘thrum’, though I suspect this was caused by the advertising display panelling set up behind the speakers. Also the seating was perhaps a little too close to the speakers; certainly the seating was too low relative to the height of the tweeter (4’ 2”, that is well above ear level when seated), to the effect that image height was too high: singers appeared far too tall and the drummer’s cymbals far too high. These are a three (or four (?)) - way speaker: I do wonder if in moving away from the point-source attributes of the dual-concentric design, something has been lost. Certainly the speakers sounded a lot better when one stood further away from them.

A Wadia CD player, Music First ‘transformer’ preamp and a Moscode 402AU valve/hybrid power amplifier were used for the demonstration

Coherent Systems were demonstrating the Cabasse Pacific 3SA speakers with Bel Canto CD/DAC. Pink Floyd’s ‘Money’ sounded good even if it is a clichéd ‘70s demonstration track. The cash register noises and the unusual 6/8 time signature of Water’s bass were very well displayed - most enjoyable.

Symmetry used an Ayre CD player, Brinkmann turntable, arm (based on the Breuer arm) and cartridge (a modified EMT) and Trilogy phono stage, pre-amplifier and multiple power amplflifiers. I didn’t take note of the speakers, but whatever they were, Symmetry were giving a good demo.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/015.jpg?t=1285532788
Brinkmann turntable, arm and cartridge.

Tron/GT Audio demonstrated the visually imposing and striking Avantgarde Uno horn loudspeakers fed by a valve amplifier. Again I didn’t take note of the make of amplifier, as I was sidetracked by the use of an EMT JSD-6 cartridge (the latest design from the resurrected EMT), mounted on a Simplicity 001 arm (completely unknown and totally new to me). I didn’t even note what the turntable was, but no matter – whatever it and the amp were, Johnny Cash never sounded so good.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/010-3.jpg?t=1285533573
EMT JSD-6 cartridge in a Simplicity 001 arm

I came across the Avantgarde horn loaded speakers last year at Whittlebury, and they caused me to reconsider my prejudices against horns. They displayed all of the fine attributes of horns, good attack, speed and dynamics, without the ‘cuppy’ sound so often associated with horns. I don’t know how Avantgarde load the bass driver, but the mid/treble horn is unfolded and I think that could well have something to do with the lack of obvious colouration.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR4vd6jvucKyPyM4dW8ESquU4qVhqmg0 gkFc9Li-1-gfSPFAyo&t=1&usg=__MQhByTlaruNnGsS0UVsKFJDmXuI
Avantgarde Uno horn speakers. (Library photo, as I didn’t take one myself)

Icon Audio were using their valve amplifiers to feed, amongst others, the Kingsound Queen 2 electrostatic hybrid speakers. Maybe I was just attracted to the electrostatic sound, but the overall sound was just so relaxing and convincing that I thought this was one of best demos, played at a sensible volume level in a small room of the show.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/008-2.jpg?t=1285532113

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/009-1.jpg?t=1285532393
Kingsound Queen 2 electrostatic hybrid speaker (Apologies for the poor photo)

Astin Trew/Revolver were playing John Martyn’s ‘Solid Air’ on the Music 5 TT. Certainly Danny Thompson’s bass was very clear and Martyn’s lyrics more articulate than usual.

Absolute Sounds (in one of their non-ticketed demonstrations: what an arrogant marketing tactic that is) were playing a Micromega CD player through some small Sonus Faber speakers and sounding pretty good. Unfortunately I find Absolute Sounds’ attitude and aloofness quite off-putting, discouraging me to enquire further.

Audiofreaks as usual gave an impeccable demonstration in a large room. This was a non-ticketed demonstration, people were coming in and out, yet such was the high standard of the demonstration, they did so with decorum and spoke in hushed tones (Absolute Sounds take note!). When I was there they were using a Zanden CD player via Karen solid-state amplification and Avalon speakers to play the overture to Mozart’s ‘Magic Flute’. Played at a sensible and realistic level, with excellent sound-staging, this was to my ears one of the best demonstrations of the show. I found it so enjoyable I was reluctant to leave. Also on demonstration was the Kuzma turntable and arm with a Benz cartridge. I heard this combination in the Audiofreaks’ room last year and know it to be an excellent vinyl player.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/019.jpg?t=1285531486

Focal JM Lab/dCS had demos in two rooms. In the first I felt that the speakers, Focal’s Diabolo Utopia, were too small for the large room, and were struggling to cope. Fed by a dCS Puccini player via VTL IT-85 amplifier, ‘Ave Maria’ just sounded ‘wrong’ (sorry, can’t elaborate any more than that). A later cello piece played also sounded tonally wrong.

However in the second, equally large room, larger Focal speakers were used, again with the dCS Puccini payer/DAC, but this time with Mark Levinson amplification (333s (?)) and were sounding much, much better. Not without it’s faults: the width of the sound sage was defined precisely by the separation between the speakers; and with a live recording of a singer/guitarist, the voice was too loud whereas the guitar was correct. This latter of course might have been a fault of the recording; the singer could have been singing into a microphone, whereas the guitar was un-miked. Even so, the feeling and atmosphere of the venue came across well.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/023.jpg?t=1285537205

Kudos/Cymbiosis are obviously Linn/Naim enthusiasts. Kate Melua was being played on an Linn LP12/Naim Aro/ Dynavector XV combination, via Naim electronics into Kudos speakers. I found the sound to be bass light (and I listen to Quad ESLs; not noted for their bass weight), but otherwise overall very good.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/022.jpg?t=1285535073

I’m fascinated by the Dynavector XV design. You probably can’t see it in the photo, but the geometry of the generator exactly mirrors that of the disc cutter, unlike all other mc designs (with the notable exception of the Allnic Audio Verito and Puritas designs: http://www.allnicaudio.com/eng/products/view.htm?brandcode=0020010000000001&page=1). Does anybody have any experience of this cartridge?

Cymbiosis were displaying some beautiful, hand-crafted, bespoke and expensive plinths for the Linn LP12, available in a bewildering range of woods. (No doubt Chris (TGW) would be able to readily identify them all.)

Music First Audio were not only displaying and demonstrating their excellent ‘transformer’ pre amps, but were demonstrating John Howes’s Howes Acoustics ‘Quarter Wave Omni’ loudspeakers, fed by his PX4 SET amplifier (3 watt). When I visited, the source being used was a Revox A77 (Mk. III (?)) reel-to-reel machine.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/024.jpg?t=1285534496

Obviously inspired by Paul Voigt’s Corner Horn speaker of the 1950s, Howes’s designs use an upward facing Lowther driver (either the PM6 or later DX2) for the mid/treble with the sound being reflected outward by a semi-circular conical reflector, with the bass being derived from the rear of the driver, exiting the cabinet at floor level. These speakers are intended to be situated against a wall, or in the corner of the room. In Music First’s room the speakers were neither against a wall, nor did they seem to be sufficiently far in a corner, and this might be the cause of the problems I had with them. A solo female vocalist was being played and it has to be said that the sound was very pure, clean and naturalistic. The problem was the voice was completely disembodied – it just appeared out of the aether, somewhere between the speakers. No mouth, no head, no body – just the voice of some angelic spirit. I have to confess that I have never got on with omni-directional designs, since they lack for me the essential focus that I look for. I don’t know if they would have sounded better if they had been situated differently, but John Howes was there and was presumably happy with the way his speakers were being demonstrated.

Howes has a more powerful PX25 SET design (6 watt) available as an alternative to the PX4 design.

Highendcable/AMR were displaying and demonstrating the Abingdon Music Research massively OTT, top-loading CD player with valve output stage, the CD77. The build level of this player was most impressive – I dared not ask the price, but suspect it is in five figures. A recording of violinist Anne-Sophie Mutter sounded really good, played at a realistic level.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/017-1.jpg?t=1285536676
AMR DC77 shown at the top left

AMR were the providers of the gold fuse, given to those who had pre booked their ticket. This wunder fuse uses a silver alloy fuse wire, gold plated end caps, is non magnetic with an anti-resonance ceramic body and claims to be a low inductance design! Being of 13A rating, I’m only going to use it in the plug feeding the distribution strip for my system, but not before I’ve left it in the freezer for a week to cryo-cool it. I wonder if it’s directional? Forgive the sarcasm – but I find all of this ‘foo’. However at a list price of £12, it’s half the price of Furutech’s offering, and if I’m proved wrong and notice any difference, believe you me you’ll be the first to know.

So that just about sums it up for this year. Another good show; equally well attended and, I’m afraid to say, the equally confusing labyrinthine layout of demonstration rooms. This year most of the demonstrators seemed to have overcome the problems of speaker -(hotel) room interactions. Ironically, it was those who used the larger rooms that had problems. I was also pleased to note that the great majority of demonstrations were carried out at a sensible volume level, without the stupidity of each trying to out do the other. On the whole most of the music played was the sort of stuff that most people listen to, but there was the occasional, and perhaps understandably, ‘gee-wizz’ track played.

Finally, I was good to meet up again with John (Music Room Moderator), Neil (Dalek Supreme), Marco and Del. It was also nice to have met Andrew (AndrewR), Hugo (Shuggie) and Steve (Snoopdog); more faces to names. I would have taken a group shot of our get-together in the bar, however Marco was disinclined to have his photo taken. Shame, what with his dark blue French navy striped T-shirt top under a primrose-yellow trouser suit, I thought he looked rather fetching!

Joe

26-09-2010, 22:03

An excellent write-up, Barry. Wild horses wouldn't drag me to a hifi show, but with a review as good as that, there's no need for me to go anyway.

Beechwoods

26-09-2010, 22:04

Nice to see an old-school reel to reel at at a current hi-fi industry show! Excellent insight into the show Barry. Thank you.

Marco

26-09-2010, 23:48

Hi Jerry,

I think that we are just after VERY different things when it comes to audio, Marco!

In some respects, yes definitely, but in other areas our tastes are quite similar, such as with the Techie and DL-103, to name but two. You have commented before that you feel I understand the type of sound you like :)

I hated the Audiofreaks room. Avalon speakers always sound bland and boring to me. The ultimate elevator music for me, I'm afraid.

Out of interest, what music were they playing when you were there, and at what volume?

I ask because on previous occasions I too felt the same way you did about the kit they use, but this time decided to give it a more serious listen....

When Del and I entered the room, there was some bland 'tinkly-tinkly' choral music being played on CD at not much more than a whisper, and I thought 'here we go again, it's blandsville time', but I said to one of the chaps running the room if we could liven things up a bit and play some 'real' music! He laughed and asked what I had in mind.

I asked if he had any Jeff Buckley on vinyl, showing him the copy of 'Sketches (For My Sweetheart the Drunk)', which I'd just bought from Diverse Vinyl. I asked if he would play 'Everybody Here Wants You', which is a beautiful, soulful ballad, (JB has such a great voice) and he told me they're not allowed to play anyone else's music (Branko's ridiculous rules, I presume?), but fortunately they had the same album in their music selection....

So, on it went on their Kuzma T/T, and I asked the chap to turn the volume up a bit to allow the system (and speakers) to 'spread their wings', as it were. Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm not particularly a volume freak, unless the music demands (heavy rock, death metal, dance stuff, etc), but there is definitely a 'sweet spot' on any system, and with certain recordings, where everything clicks into focus, and so many of the systems I heard at the show on Saturday were, IMO, disappointingly played below that threshold level - almost as if the exhibitors were afraid the sound would fall apart... Come on, guys, have some confidence in your gear!

Anyway, the volume was duly raised to an acceptable level, and the sound which emitted from the Avalons was just simply sublime, with Buckley's achingly soulful and emotive vocals placed in sharp focus centre stage, with such convincing realism it made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, and the subtle backing instrumentation simply framing his hauntingly dulcet tones in the most realistic way - magical stuff!! :eek:

Hey, even the guys running the room (now having been awoken from their tinkly-tinkly pap-induced slumber) were impressed!

Conclusions? Avalons (appear) to need cranking up a bit to come alive properly... Oh, and the Kuzma smoked the Zanden CDP, although I heard some classical music on the latter, played at decent levels, and it was pretty damned good, too. And lastly, ask them to play some proper music, and not audiophile pap!

At the end of the day, you still might have hated it, but I suspect if you'd heard the system the way I did, you might have been a little bit more predisposed to complimenting it - or maybe not :lol:

Anyway, just some thoughts! :cool:

Whereas I thought the Adam Tensor speakers were superb. Way out in front of anything else at the Show for me! I don't usually go much for McIntosh gear - but I thought the system really gelled well!

Funny ol' game, innit!

It is indeed, although I never thought the system was dreadful, just not really my cup of tea. I suspect that I will prefer Hamish's little active Adam stand-mounts better (when I get a chance to hear them), as they're fronted by a superb preamp (and a none too shabby source) that, sonically, is to my ears more transparent and musical sounding than what was being used in the JA room with the huge floor-standing Adams.

Anyway, we shall see!

Ah, yes, OK. A very good sound I agree - and quite distinctive. But I owned Avantgarde Unos for about 5 years, so I guess it was a case of 'been there, done that' and taking that type of presentation for granted!!

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that last remark, but I really enjoyed the big Avantgarde horns, especially when playing vinyl on that superb T/T with the EMT cartridge. For me, when horns are done well, they get it *so* right in terms of reproducing voices and instruments faithfully, as they are heard in real life, and much of this is to do with their wide dynamic range, speed, and transient attack.

Anyone who has heard un-amplified acoustic instruments played live knows that the sound they make often makes you wince, as it can be quite piercing, especially trumpets and violins, and most systems (and loudspeakers) round off the leading edges, softening the whole sound and thus making it far from accurate. It may be 'pleasant' to listen to, but it sure as hell ain't real! Horns, even though they too have their colorations, for me get it much more right in that respect.

That's why when I've been reading some of the comments from people after the show, and the sounds they considered were good, I've wondered whether some of them have heard much live music, or are simply judging the results of the show demonstrations on their own 'hi-fi terms'?

That certainly isn't the benchmark I use..... I suspect some folk aren't comfortable with realistic dynamics and genuine wide-open high resolution in a system, as they are too used to their own favoured brand of coloration, and prefer things a little bit 'safer'. It's a comfort zone thing.

I avoided it [the NVA room] like the plague, I am afraid - I've had enough of the inimitable RD and his narrow-minded rantings.

Lol - that's quite a turnaround in attitude from you! ;)

I quite liked Richard's system at Scalford Hall, but for me it just didn't work well at all this time. I like his amps, but I can't really get on with those Cubes speakers of his (which sound somewhat 'PA-like' for me) even though this time they were bigger and had some bass. And even his PL-71/SPU sounded distinctly off-colour, which I thought was very good at Scalford. Maybe it was the room, or he's 'tweaked' the system in some way which I feel has been a backwards step? Anyhow, I left rather disappointed.

More thoughts on the show tomorrow. Right now, it's a few choons and then to bed.

Marco.

Rare Bird

27-09-2010, 01:12

Cymbiosis were displaying some beautiful, hand-crafted, bespoke and expensive plinths for the Linn LP12, available in a bewildering range of woods. (No doubt Chris (TGW) would be able to readily identify them all.)

Mr Andr'e the cabinet maker knows ;)

Ammonite Audio

27-09-2010, 06:56

I'm not sure if I'll bother with the Whittlebury Hall show again, mainly because I spent most of the time going in circles, trying to work out where I'd already been and what else there might be to see. At one point, trying to navigate to the entrance foyer with Diverse Vinyl etc, I resorted to walking around the outside of the building. The layout was just as bad as last year and equally confusing - surely Chester Group could have paid more attention to signage to guide people round in a logical manner?

That said, it was good to meet up with old friends and new AoS acquaintances; also J7 from Audio Origami, Rob Holt, Steve from Vertex and others too. Thanks too to Marco and Del for the drinks and sarnies.

Because I was so pissed off with getting lost, I missed many rooms, but a few stood out. I hated the sound of those big Tannoys - whatever they are supposed to do, they were not connecting with my inner music appreciator. The Audiofreaks room was as Marco describes above, even though they were playing something quiet at the time. I browsed the non-ticketed Absolute Sounds stuff and was impressed with the Micromega/Sonus Faber rig. It was a shame that in the other room they were concentrating on Dartzeel, because I desperately wanted to hear the Devialet D-Premier amp. It turned out that the Devialet was demming behind some god-awful 3D cinema setup, also drowned out by some live music in the adjacent courtyard.

I found myself coming in on the arse end of a Nordost demonstration of USB cables, which was interesting, as the Nordost USB cable (connected to a Mac Mini) was delivering some rather uninvolving sounds, for whatever reason. Perhaps I should have stayed for the next dem to hear the 'cooking' cable's performance, but I didn't.

The DPA room was a haven of calm order. At the back was a small listening area with a stack of DPA amp stuff and a Cambridge Audio CD player, feeding little Wilson Benesch speakers. The chap asked me what I thought, to which I replied that the sound was too light, flat and uninvolving for my tastes, which clearly shocked him. I was very pleasantly surprised that he had asked the question - how refreshing is that? How many audio people actually interact with potential customers? Anyway, a nice conversation ensued about what he seeks his designs to do, as a musician and organ builder. I still don't like the sound but I very much liked the DPA chap.

Music Works had what seemed to be a very good setup with Berning amps, dCS front end and Focal speakers, all supported by their acrylic racks and wired up with high-end MIT cables. Someone had clearly asked for some quiet choral music, which I struggled to hear against the background competition from other rooms, but I have to say that there was more than a hint of something special there.

I tried a couple of times to get into the NVA room to hear the system and the TFS music computer, which I think is a brave and refreshing attempt to make a small and silent audio-optimised computer visually acceptable in the context of an audio system. Alas, the room was tiny and was always too full of people, so I shall have to wait until the London Bake-Off Show for a chance to hear the TFS properly.

So, apart from the social scene, it was a poor show in my view and I shall not bother again. The piss-poor layout planning was a real shame, since those big rooms are potentially way better than most of the normal ones in the Park Inn etc.

jandl100

27-09-2010, 07:03

Thanks for the extended reply, Marco - it puts my 'soundbites' to shame! :)

All I meant by my comment re: the GTA/Avantgarde exhibit was that I am extremely familiar, probably too much so, with that sort of dynamic/clarity presentation from having lived with something very similar for 5 years or so with my old Avantgarde Unos. In such circumstances, while familiarity does not breed contempt it definitely does make you take the excellence a bit for granted. Other folks coming to that sort of sound are very likely to be stunned/startled.

I have to say though, that I did find that demo a bit overwhelming in its 'stun factor', a bit OTT compared to a live event, I feel. In a real environment there is a 'cushion of air' between you and the musicians - that was missing from the demo, I think. For me, something a tad more laid back & relaxed would be required for long-term listening. Mighty impressive for a Show dem, though.

BTW - I feel sure that the amplification used would have been GTA's own TRON kit.

___
More later on the Audiofreaks room - I have to go out now and help a friend get a pair of Audio Physic Virgo 2 speakers for a dem at his house. :)

Marco

27-09-2010, 08:30

Incidentally, before going any further, it goes without saying that it was great to meet some new faces from AoS, our resident Dalek, Neil, A.K.A 'fussy food boy' (who pinched my lunch - bastid! :eyebrows:), and Andrew Randle, who was a thoroughly nice chap, and old ones again such as Barry, Hugo, Steve (Snoops), Steve (Twelvebears), John (music room mod), Santosh, Philip (Baron), Alex Nikitin, Guy Sergeant, Tony Sallis, Technobear, and also Johnny from Audio Origami :)

My apologies if I've missed anyone out!

Nice write-up, Hugo (and of course, Barry - great pics, too!). Such in-depth observations are always useful and interesting to read.

I was intrigued by what you thought of the Tannoy Kingdoms, Hugo... Obviously these didn't do it for you like the Lockwoods did at my place ;)

Hi Jerry,

All I meant by my comment re: the GTA/Avantgarde exhibit was that I am extremely familiar, probably too much so, with that sort of dynamic/clarity presentation from having lived with something very similar for 5 years or so with my old Avantgarde Unos. In such circumstances, while familiarity does not breed contempt it definitely does make you take the excellence a bit for granted. Other folks coming to that sort of sound are very likely to be stunned/startled.

Yep, good point - I can understand that. I always enjoy listening to horns, done well, when I get the opportunity, for the reasons outlined. My Tannoys, having horn-loaded tweeters, possess some of their attractive characteristics, but I also feel address some of their weaknesses, too (namely in the bass). The Lockwoods aren't perfect (no speakers are), but for my tastes, give me the best of both worlds.

I have to say though, that I did find that demo a bit overwhelming in its 'stun factor', a bit OTT compared to a live event, I feel. In a real environment there is a 'cushion of air' between you and the musicians - that was missing from the demo, I think. For me, something a tad more laid back & relaxed would be required for long-term listening. Mighty impressive for a Show dem, though.

Yes I take your point. I think some of that could be overcome by the room they are used in, which at the show was a little small. In a larger room, one could create that "cushion of air", of which you speak, diluting the 'full on' intensity of the horns, whilst still being able to marvel at their magical way with music.

BTW - I feel sure that the amplification used would have been GTA's own TRON kit.

Yes I think you're right. I should've paid more attention to the partnering system, however the room was packed when Del and I were there, and I couldn't get in to see the kit being used properly.

More later on the Audiofreaks room...

I look forward to it :cool:

Marco.

DSJR

27-09-2010, 08:51

I cannot believe that Marco was able to go on a HiFi jolly WITH HIS MISSUS happily in tow. It's not fair - my better half wouldn't be seen dead in such an environment.

It's got to be better having a show in a large hotel away from London and Heathrow, surely..

Marco

27-09-2010, 09:34

Hi Neil,

Just to pick up on some of your comments...

Really nice meeting Marco, Del, Andrew, Shuggie, Snoopdog. John and Barry. The drinks and lunch were greatly appreciated by your's truly. I ended up eating Marco's lunch.

Nice meeting you too, dude. Del says 'hello', and that she's made a note of your 'dietary requirements' for when you visit! :eyebrows: ;)

I was fine with the sarnies, which I thought were rather nice, as was the lemon butter chicken (well what I had of it!) :lol:

First thoughts are that the show was too big for just two days, it was very hard to get round all the rooms, take photos and write notes on what was what and how things sounded.

I understand the "too big" remark from the point of view of you having to write an in-depth review and take pictures of all the rooms, but for me it wasn't a case of being too big, but rather that they crammed way too many exhibitors into the first floor, which was one of the reasons why the layout was so bloody confusing (yet again!).... :doh:

Why on earth didn't they spread some of the show onto the 2nd and 3rd floors, and thus the layout wouldn't have been quite so intimidating? That would've solved most of the problems.

The vibe of the show was good and upbeat but many struggled with awful rooms and really crap mains quality + noise pollution from other exhibitors.

I'm sorry, but whilst I sympathise, I don't really accept that as a valid excuse. We've exhibited at Scalford Hall twice now, using different kit and speakers, in the exact same conditions, and twice managed to achieve very good results.

You get around room issues (as best as possible) by making sure the room you are given is suitable for the system you're demonstrating, and thus allowing for its size and shape.

The first time AoS demonstrated our system at Scalford Hall, I met Roy Bird (from Chester Group) down there weeks before the show, and him and I, along with the hotel manager, toured the hotel and agreed on the best room for my purposes, which turned out to be the Rutland Suite.

I then took a note of where all the mains sockets were located, and also checked out where the solid walls were, so in advance I had an idea of where best to put the system. I was then given a room plan, with all relevant dimensions, and so I knew exactly what I was dealing with before the day of the show, and thus prepared for it. It's called being organised.

I wonder how many trade exhibitors did this at Whittlebury Hall? Did they even get the opportunity, I wonder?

As for crappy mains, Anthony TD's superb mains filter in conjunction with a MusicWorks ReFlex mains block and Mark Grant DSP 2.5 mains leads, took care of most of the 'nasties', and we went on to produce a great sound, so I fail to see why supposedly more experienced dealers and distributors couldn't have achieved similar results, unless the mains supply in Whittlebury Hall is significantly worse than at Scalford - and I don't buy that.

Today offered a much better quality of sound over Saturday...

That's always the case when equipment has been left switched on for a few days and has 'warmed up' to fully come on song.

One thing I think worth pointing out that many exhibitors are very passionate about what they do and were frankly beside themselves with frustration at how poor their kit was performing in the show conditions.

Well, like I said, we overcame "show conditions" at Scalford and got good results, so...............

I spent part of Friday evening helping one company set up a room and the attention to detail being employed by the exhibitors was refreshing to see but a bad room is a bad room: though they did managed to produce a good sound regardless of the room.

Nice one, and I'm sure that was appreciated. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the exhibitors didn't try to make a good sound (clearly they did, and it was successful, as there were more good sounds than bad, IMO), and I know how much hard work those guys put in, but I think one needs to be careful as to how much a "bad room" or "crap mains quality" is used as an excuse for poor sound.

While the Park Inn has its issues, I for one feel that the rooms there are generally better and the Park Inn has a much better layout.

Fair enough if that's your opinion. Apart from it having a better layout, it isn't mine, as for me the Park Inn is a hell hole in the middle of London with shit food and even worse parking facilities.

I enjoy Whittlebury Hall because it's spacious, in the country, the food is good (although rather expensive), and if I arrive early enough, I can park right outside the hotel (which with having a bad back is quite important)!

All I'd say is that I'd like some of the smaller 'boutique' companies, who exhibit at the Park Inn, to come to Whittlebury Hall, as the more specialist bespoke equipment is where my passion lies.

No, apart from that, you can keep yer Park Inn and also the airport shows (which are even worse). The Manchester city centre one, organised by Practical Hi-fi, is my favourite of the lot :cool:

Marco.

Billy the dingo

27-09-2010, 09:37

Re DELTEC I am pleased SHRUGGIE found me welcoming,I too am amazed at the lack of interaction between exhibitors and clents at shows- if we do not COMMUNICATE with you guys how can we please you with our products in the future? I feel I must clarify that the source we were using involved the Cambridge CD player as a DELTRAN locked transport to our new PDM3 DAC I was sorry that our sound did not please Shruggie- I find it hard to get what we really want in a show room but felt that we did better than most. I am also amazed that some exhibitors still will not play clients cds or lps I have heard some amazing things at shows and gone on to purchase them, there have been times when eyebrows have been raised but it is easy to quickly rectify the situation politely! sorry you are not coming next year, Shruggie, I would love another chance to convert you to the ways of DELTEC Martyn Warsop DELTEC sales Supremo!

Marco

27-09-2010, 09:56

Hi Dave,

I cannot believe that Marco was able to go on a HiFi jolly WITH HIS MISSUS happily in tow. It's not fair - my better half wouldn't be seen dead in such an environment.

Lol! We do most things together as a couple - we like to take an interest in each other's hobbies. Del's also always enjoyed listening to different equipment, and she loves BIG speakers, so I'm quite lucky in that respect ;)

Also, she enjoys the social aspect of things and meeting friends from AoS who have visited our home on numerous occasions for a meal and a music sesh, which we enjoy doing on a regular basis :cool:

It's got to be better having a show in a large hotel away from London and Heathrow, surely..

Damn tootin'!!

Marco.

Spectral Morn

27-09-2010, 10:09

YNWaN

27-09-2010, 10:11

I saw you momentarily at the show Marco - we passed as you rushed from the direction of the Absolute Sounds demo's; it looked like you were on a mission - no sooner had I recognised you and then you were gone - not to be seen (by me at least) again.

I caught up with Guy and a few other friends - Guy gave me my air bearing (now that IS a proper bearing :)- bigger than my hand).

Marco

27-09-2010, 10:18

Hi Mark,

No worries - it's a bloody big place. I was looking out for you (and would've bought you a drink), so maybe next time?

Besides, I'm sure we'll meet up at Andrew's before that. I would like to reschedule our T/T bake-off sometime before Christmas :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird

27-09-2010, 10:21

Hi Dave,

Lol - we do most things together as a couple, Dave - we like to take an interest in each other's hobbies. Del's also always enjoyed listening to different equipment, and she loves BIG speakers, so I'm quite lucky in that respect ;)

Also, she enjoys the social aspect of things and meeting friends from AoS who have visited our home on numerous occasions for a meal and a music sesh, which we enjoy doing on a regular basis :cool:

Same here.. myself & the wife are joined at the hip, where there's one, you'll find the other, she's my best friend see :)

But when it comes to hifi shows although she's more than happy to tag along for the social aspect of things just like your wife Marco, she will admit she has no intrest in hi-fi! but saying that i actually have even less intrest with a large percentage of hifi & can become a right old pain in the arse at shows.It all just bores me to death these days..

Marco

27-09-2010, 10:34

Hi Andre,

Same here.. myself & the wife are joined at the hip, where there's one, you'll find the other, she's my best friend see :)

Yup, that's the same in our relationship. Without being disrespectful to anyone else, surely having lots of things in common is the key to a long, happy, and successful marriage?

This is where I don't get the "my wife hates anything to do with hi-fi" thing folk come out with. Surely she must've have known what your hobbies were before you got married? :scratch:

It's about tolerance, give and take, as well as compatibility - and most of all, mutual respect. Sadly though I'm not sure how genuinely compatible some people are, given the comments I sometimes read...

Anyway, we're going WAY off-topic here! :)

I think you'd like the Manchester city centre show in November (I think?), as ground floor aside (which is full of AV shite), there is more of the sort of kit you'd be interested in. There's also a half-decent Italian restaurant next to the hotel in Deansgate - the pasta and pizzas are pretty good!

Might be one to consider, as it's not very far away either :cool:

Marco.

DSJR

27-09-2010, 10:36

Shows bored me in the end and that's why so many of my then associates ended up plastered at the bar.. it's been so long since I attended any shows, I'd like to go and have a mooch around ;)

I know it's off topic Marco, but partnerships like yours and Andre's are very rare i think. i get on really well with my better half and we share everything - except my music tastes and HiFi. It was better when I worked in the stores because I could dem and play to my heart's content and when we first started out, she was quite happy to accommodate the ATC100A's (they just couldn't be used in our little sitting room, let alone be moved to get to the cupboard one of them would have been blocking). At least I've had not one negative comment about the Spendors, saggy grilles and all, as at least they're used every day so justify their position.

Marco

27-09-2010, 11:08

Sure, Dave - we both realise that we're lucky.... It makes my hi-fi and music interests (we have similar tastes there too) so much more rewarding and pleasurable! :)

In terms of shows, what you need to do is get yo' ass to Scalford Hall next year, because as well as hearing some genuinely good kit, it's nice from a forum point of view, to put faces to names :cool:

Marco.

Barry

27-09-2010, 11:36

Neil has informed me that I have made some (factual) errors in my write up. When he lets me know what they are, I'll correct what I have written.

Just thought I ought to let you know.

With the exception of the Audiofreaks room, I think most AoS members who attended came away from the show with similar impressions; especially of the poor organisation by the Chester Group.

Regards

YNWaN

27-09-2010, 18:10

I would like to reschedule our T/T bake-off sometime before Christmas :cool:

Marco.

Yeah, that would be great :).

Lee Henley

27-09-2010, 19:07

Icon Audio were using their valve amplifiers to feed, amongst others, the Kingsound Queen 2 electrostatic hybrid speakers. Maybe I was just attracted to the electrostatic sound, but the overall sound was just so relaxing and convincing that I thought this was one of best demos, played at a sensible volume level in a small room of the show.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/008-2.jpg?t=1285532113

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/009-1.jpg?t=1285532393
Kingsound Queen 2 electrostatic hybrid speaker (Apologies for the poor photo)

I too found the Icon audio very pleasant so much so that I might try one of their 60W integrated amps, the guy swapped over the pre/power combo to the integrated and I must say I found this very nice indeed, my local dealer in the midlands stocks them so too, a real bargain at £1800. BTW an excellent right up may I add

Lee

technobear

27-09-2010, 21:11

Guess I'd better add my twopenny worth :)

I really enjoyed the system with the Howse Voigt Pipes. That's definitely going on the technobear future possibilties list!

I thought the Tannoy Kingdoms were absolute shit. Not because of their sound (which was very nice) but because of their finish. £35,000 for an ocean of cheap-looking matt black plastic that wouldn't look out of place on something that cost £200 from Argos. Take a look at any speaker from the Focal Be range or the Triangle Magellan range - awsome finish on both of these - and then tell me this is a £35,000 speaker. Absolute crap!!! Tannoy should hang their heads in shame :steam:

It was good to see so many headphones at the show I listened to AKG K701, Audio-Technica W1000, Denon D7000 and a whole bunch of Stax. I see what people like about the AKG but it's not for me. I really liked the W1000 and the D7000 but the top of the range Stax (at nearly £4k with its own amp mind) just blew all the others away. Absolutely awesome. Even the cheapest Stax sounded very good indeed although they do look odd. The expensive Stax looks like a 'normal' headphone though. Hmmm. Plenty of food for thought there. Honourable mention to the A.N.T. Amber SE headphone amp - very nice.

I also enjoyed the Audio Note room. For once the bass was under control and sounded very good.

chris@panteg

28-09-2010, 08:38

Hi Chris

Those Stax were pretty amazing ' i liked the Audionote room , although the system at Park inn was better but this more 'modest' set up if you can call it that was very good.

YNWaN

28-09-2010, 10:23

jandl100

28-09-2010, 10:29

Hi Jerry,

In some respects, yes definitely, but in other areas our tastes are quite similar, such as with the Techie and DL-103, to name but two. You have commented before that you feel I understand the type of sound you like :)

Well, just because you have an insight into my preferences doesn't mean that we share them! ;)

Re: that Audiofreaks room ...
Out of interest, what music were they playing when you were there, and at what volume?

....Conclusions? Avalons (appear) to need cranking up a bit to come alive properly

Marco.

Hmm, ahhh ... to my embarassment I cannot now recall what was being played! :doh: But it was a multi-musician combo at decent levels.
The presentation was so reminiscent of previous encounters with Avalon-based systems that I happily (although perhaps incorrectly) took it as a fair representation of the system's capabilities.
I know, I know - that's a form of pre-judgement! ;)

Nonetheless ... the sound was poorly focussed, more a bloated 'wall of sound' than a 3D image. Dynamics were muted - the difference between soft and loud bits appeared diminished, no real dynamic contrast was in evidence. (The comparison with the Avantgarde speakers in the GTA room was simply hugely embarassing for the Avalon/Karan system, imho).

This was also handily consistent with my prejudices regarding Karan amps :lol: - i.e. the 180 integrated, which I find a bit dark and lacking pizzaz ... so I was not averse to the idea that larger Karans also had that characteristic! :)

The system on that one track came across as uninteresting and uninvolving in the extreme. Very very similar to all previous encounters to these equipment manufacturers.
Sure, I know of some folks who would go "Wow, I wannit". But then some folks positively enjoy a Pipe & Slippers type of presentation. At the end of the day it's only personal preference.

I certainly heard nothing there in any way reminiscent of what you describe, Marco! Next show, I will try and give it more of a listen.
Personally, I think it's just designed for rich buggers with no real interest in music but who fancy putting some interestingly-styled speakers in one of their many football-field-sized living rooms. :eyebrows:

chris@panteg

28-09-2010, 10:45

Hi Jerry

you put it into better words than i can , but John and i would agree with your description , just didn't gel to us.

chris@panteg

28-09-2010, 10:50

I liked the stax but I think I preffered the AKG - I thought they were very good.

The Audionote room always sounds pretty damn good - whilst good again, I have heard it sounding even better before (it was a small room though)

Hi Mark

Did you listen to the Avid Diva sp ? what did you think , i like the look and design of this deck .

Techno Commander

28-09-2010, 11:40

I presume those Tannoys are direct radiating boxes. In which case I guess the drivers cost around £3K - £4K. Which means you are paying over £30K for a box. That doesnt seem right. IIRC the Westminsters are only a few £K more.

Marco

28-09-2010, 14:00

Hi Jerry,

Well, just because you have an insight into my preferences doesn't mean that we share them! ;)

Well, we both like the Techie and DL-103, so of that there is no doubt!

Re: that Audiofreaks room ...

Hmm, ahhh ... to my embarassment I cannot now recall what was being played! But it was a multi-musician combo at decent levels.
The presentation was so reminiscent of previous encounters with Avalon-based systems that I happily (although perhaps incorrectly) took it as a fair representation of the system's capabilities.
I know, I know - that's a form of pre-judgement!

Nonetheless ... the sound was poorly focussed, more a bloated 'wall of sound' than a 3D image. Dynamics were muted - the difference between soft and loud bits appeared diminished, no real dynamic contrast was in evidence.

This was also handily consistent with my prejudices regarding Karan amps - i.e. the 180 integrated, which I find a bit dark and lacking pizzaz ... so I was not averse to the idea that larger Karans also had that characteristic!

The system on that one track came across as uninteresting and uninvolving in the extreme. Very very similar to all previous encounters to these equipment manufacturers.

No worries - I can't argue with what you hear. I, however, heard something rather different.

Sure, I know of some folks who would go "Wow, I wannit". But then some folks positively enjoy a Pipe & Slippers type of presentation. At the end of the day it's only personal preference.

'Course it is, but you should also know me well enough now, both from my remarks on AoS and having heard most of my system twice at Scalford Hall, that "Pipe & Slippers" is about as far removed from the type of sound I like as could possibly be imagined! That is not my sort of thing at all.

So what's going on then, I wonder? :scratch:

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it, and would just put it down to one of these things that happens :)

Next show, I will try and give it more of a listen.

Cool... I'm not really expecting you to change your mind, though.

(The comparison with the Avantgarde speakers in the GTA room was simply hugely embarassing for the Avalon/Karan system, imho).

It was a different type of sound. All systems and speakers have their different (inherent) colourations. To my ears, the Audiofreaks system had certain musical attributes which the GTA system lacked, and vice versa.

I can (and did) appreciate both.

Personally, I think it's just designed for rich buggers with no real interest in music but who fancy putting some interestingly-styled speakers in one of their many football-field-sized living rooms

Nah, sorry, I don't buy that at all - certainly not based on what I heard. Also, there's no way that Steve (Snoopdog), whom I know is a very good judge of what constitutes as a good sound, would've bought the same Avalons for that reason.

Marco.

Theo

28-09-2010, 14:14

twelvebears

28-09-2010, 16:19

While the Park Inn has its issues, I for one feel that the rooms there are generally better and the Park Inn has a much better layout.Regards D S D L

Hear, hear! Less of a rabbit warren and corridors which feel less cramped when it's busy....

Oh and the have cash machine facilities on-site and a cafe which doesn't charge £2 for a cup of crappy instant coffee!

twelvebears

28-09-2010, 16:21

The Avantgarde Duo speakers in the GTA room were one of the show's highlights for me (though I couldn't do them in yellow). Didn't look at the costs though and, looking on the web, I'm finding conflicting information. Did anybody catch how much they are in the UK?

Yep, loved them and that room too, which I thought sounded bloody good considering the speaker to room size ratio....

YNWaN

28-09-2010, 18:16

Marco

28-09-2010, 18:22

No worries, Mark - it's simply a matter of opinion. What did you think of the Audiofreaks room?

I bet you hated that, too! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Barry

28-09-2010, 18:56

It's interesting (to me) that you guys really enjoyed the Avantegarde speakers because myself and a friend (who normally loves horn speakers) were entirely underwhelmed by them. Personally, I was too aware of odd colourations and they just didn't have the immediacy, or intimacy, that I associate with really good horns. Perhaps if they had been played a touch louder (or in a quieter environment) and with music I knew better, my opinion may have been different. Having said that, I have heard these speakers a number of times in the past and I have yet to hear them working in a fashion that entirely satisfies me.

Sounds like you just don't like horns Mark. Neither do I, but have to acknowledge that the Avantgarde's horns were the first to make me reconsider my prejudice against horns. (I lived with a pair of Lowther 'Acousta' speakers for about a year in my student days.)

....they just didn't have the immediacy, or intimacy, that I associate with really good horns

Really? That is one of the most obvious and attractive attributes of horns.

No, I wouldn't chose horns, or think about replacing my electrostatic speakers with horns, but within the context of the Whittlebury Hall show, their demonstation in a small room was one of the best of the show (IMO of course!)

Regards

YNWaN

28-09-2010, 19:26

Actually, I do like horns - I very much liked the Cessaro full range horns when I heard them and I've heard a couple of others that impressed.

Really? That is one of the most obvious and attractive attributes of horns.

Well yes, indeed - hence my surprise that they failed to deliver (for me - on the day) in this respect.
_______________________________

With regard to the Audiofreaks room - as I mentioned earlier, I only heard it playing CD and it did many things right; I respected the sound produced, it was certainly technically able, but ultimately it didn't involve me and I didn't find it hard to leave the room. I certainly didn't hate it -again, my views may well have been more positive if the music selection had been more to my personal taste.

Figlet108

29-09-2010, 00:45

It's not a question of being ungracious (though I could certainly be very much more critical) - that's what it is - a music server; I thought I was being factually accurate (perhaps I should have attributed special qualities to it).

I honestly don't see what makes it unique - there are already dozens of hi-fi manufacturers making products with precisely the same intention - no doubt it has it's own take on things (presumably), but custom built music servers have been around for some time now. In fact, many manufacturers now seem to just be using a laptop directly into an external DAC (as per the Krell/Wilson demo) and have sidestepped the integrated nature of these units.

Hi Mark,

did we meet at the show?

I thought I'd just say a few things about the TFS to clear some things up. My original intentions (this was before I met Richard) was to build myself a 'perfect' digital transport that combined the convenience of digital, that was as enjoyable and musical to listen to as analogue and also super easy to use so that my wife didn't complain about its complexity of use.

I wanted to have the digital bits delivered straight to the DAC in an unadulterated bit-perfect way. I also wanted to find the best sounding internal DAC I could with the option of upgrading with an external DAC in the future - I actually had (and still have) my eye on Westlake's new DACs.

The TFS is not intended to be a server, in that it was not originally designed to store the music, but to just play the music. In my view music is most conveniently stored on a separate NAS on the network. This way you can store many TBs of music on fast RAIDed disks in a separate room so the noise of them doesn't disturb listening. It also means that your complete music (and movie, photo etc) collection is instantly available to any computer plugged into the network.

Having said all that some folks aren't ready for a NAS yet and want the music stored on the TFS itself. That's fine. You can have up to 3 TB of music on 2.5" disks internally, but that comes at the cost of a little physical and 'musical' noise.

In its intended configuration the TFS is completely silent with no moving parts. In particular there are no spinning disks which not only cause physical noise but also 'musical' noise as I mentioned. The TFS also uses J. River Media Centre as its player which uses either Kernel streaming, WASAPI or ASIO to ensure the 'bits' are sent directly to the DAC with no interference from Windows or any other part of the system. In addition JRMC also loads the file into RAM before it starts playing which ensures that there is no jitter or loss of quality during the process of transporting the music bits from storage to the DAC.

Once the bits get to the DAC it's then up to the DAC to do the best job it can.

Apart from the aesthetics of the thing (which is more important than many will admit), the final aspect of the 'perfect' transport is to make it super easy and convenient to use. I have explored touch-screen monitors, IR and Bluetooth remote controls, wireless keyboard/trackpad combos, tablets (like iPad, iPhone, Android smartphones) and remote laptops. And all work well, some better than others.

It's also not just about playing high quality music files off disk. It's also about internet radio, spotify, youtube, iPlayer, DVDs, Blurays etc, all in one place all playing through the main hifi that potentially cost lots of money and getting maximum use out of it. In fact I also plan on building a multi-channel TFS for those (like myself) that want to integrate their hifi room and home cinema room into one.

Mark, it would be great to meet you at the London bakeoff (http://thelondonbakeoffshow.110mb.com/). I'm running the Computer Audio room and will have the TFS there. Come along and bring some music. It would be great to get your views on it.

Marco

29-09-2010, 00:51

Hi Jason,

Welcome to AOS :)

Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your basic geographic location, system details and music tastes, as this is the requirement for all new members joining AOS.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

jandl100

29-09-2010, 07:31

.... have to acknowledge that the Avantgarde's horns were the first to make me reconsider my prejudice against horns. (I lived with a pair of Lowther 'Acousta' speakers for about a year in my student days.)

Whoa.

Lowthers and Avantgarde? :scratch:

IMO, these are just totally totally different beasts.

That's a bit like comparing Quad 63 & Martin Logan Summits as they are both electrostatic speakers. Totally different presentation and one's a hybrid anyway!

I happily lived with Avantgarde Unos for 5 years, but I would not willingly spend 15 minutes with pretty much any Lowther-based speaker I have ever heard! (One exception - the Ferguson Hill FH001).

jandl100

29-09-2010, 07:46

Hi Jerry,......

Nah, sorry, I don't buy that at all - certainly not based on what I heard. Also, there's no way that Steve (Snoopdog), whom I know is a very good judge of what constitutes as a good sound, would've bought the same Avalons for that reason.

Marco.

Ah - you mean he has similar tastes to you? ;)

:zzz:
Actually, that's the answer! ... the Audiofreaks system was so soporific that Marco actually dozed off and dreamed he was hearing good sound! :lol:

Only kidding :) - we clearly heard very different things - not only perceptually, but actually. After all, we weren't there together listening to the same sounds. The only real way to get to the bottom of our different experiences is to listen together and see if we still have the same boring/great dichotomy.

Then again, you happily (no, ecstatically!) listen to your Tannoy Lockwoods on your music, whereas they are intolerable to me on my music choices.
Vive La Difference!!

:cool:

Snoopdog

29-09-2010, 08:03

Hi Fi and music - A broad church indeed!

jandl100

29-09-2010, 08:29

Hi Fi and music - A broad church indeed!

Yup! :)

But I would very much like to hear a properly set up Avalon-based system. The sound I have heard at Shows and a single dealer dem many years ago cannot possibly be representative of their true abilities. ... Can it? :scratch:

But maybe I really am looking for a different set of audio priorities in my listening?

Marco

29-09-2010, 10:33

Hi Jerry,

Ah - you mean he has similar tastes to you?

No, not necessarily. I mean that I know Steve knows what he's doing when it comes to hi-fi, and has an excellent benchmark from which to judge what constitutes as a good sound.

I would say the exact same thing about you :)

That's why it's so puzzling that our views of the Audiofreaks system are so diametrically opposed.... Although our tastes can't really be that radically different, as we both enjoyed the Avantgarde horns in the GT Audio room where the sound certainly wasn't in any way bland.

However, as you say, the only way to really get to the bottom of this is to listen together and see what happens then, so I suggest that we do this next year at the show :cool:

Then again, you happily (no, ecstatically!) listen to your Tannoy Lockwoods on your music, whereas they are intolerable to me on my music choices.
Vive La Difference!!

Indeed. One thing they aren't though is 'Pipe & Slippers'! ;)

Marco.

jandl100

29-09-2010, 10:42

Hi Jerry, ....

However, as you say, the only way to really get to the bottom of this is to listen together and see what happens then, so I suggest that we do this next year at the show :cool:

Marco.

Yep, let's do that. :)

Oooo - a date with Marco. :cheers:
Will you be wearing your pink frock? :eyebrows:

Marco

29-09-2010, 10:49

Only if I go on the Sunday, dahling.... http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/600/freerandomsmileys352.gif (http://img375.imageshack.us/i/freerandomsmileys352.gif/)

Marco.

YNWaN

29-09-2010, 21:06

Mark, it would be great to meet you at the London bakeoff. I'm running the Computer Audio room and will have the TFS there. Come along and bring some music. It would be great to get your views on it.

Hello Jason,

Many thanks for the very kind offer but it is unlikely that I will make it to the event you mention. I seem to have an increasingly large number of commitments and, to be honest, it doesn't really sound like my 'thing' (rather a long way off too - for me). In addition, I have very little music that is in a format appropriate for computer replay - almost everything I own is on vinyl; which is really where my interests lie. Thank you again for the the invitation though.

I don't think we did meet (as such) at the recent show. When I visited the NVA room there was a chap chatting to Richard (perhaps that was you) - but we weren't introduced.

AndrewR

02-10-2010, 09:10

Hi everyone,

It has been a busy week and finally... I have written and published my report on this year's National Audio Show at Whittlebury Hall.

So here it is to enjoy in my blog: http://www.hifiwatcher.com/?p=921

Andrew

YNWaN

02-10-2010, 10:10

I see you don't pass comment on many of the rooms - simply state what they were showing.

AndrewR

02-10-2010, 15:21

I see you don't pass comment on many of the rooms - simply state what they were showing.

Anything that I didn't find so inspiring or if I reckoned it was affected by the room/environment (e.g. the Tannoy and DPA rooms had too many people talking in the background), then I wouldn't particularly comment on the sound. That was probably about 30% of the rooms covered in the article. Hi-Fi Racks being the exception as it was a static display.

Take for example Icon Audio - I've never really "got" the sound - finding it very woolly. However some do love the equipment and were eager to read about their new power amps. I wouldn't like my article to put off people who would otherwise enjoy the sound - not for the customer or the manufacturer.

Andrew

Marco

02-10-2010, 17:14

Hi Andrew,

Take for example Icon Audio - I've never really "got" the sound - finding it very woolly.

I completely agree and am glad someone else heard what I did, which was a typical 'pipe & slippers' (ok, let's call it 'traditional') valve sound - the sort which gives proper valve amps a bad name...

It was 'warm and cosy', and NOT the sort of thing I like at all or am used to with the valve gear I have.

That's a shame, as the guys who run Icon Audio are very nice people (and have their hearts in the right place) but their kit, albeit well-built and competitively priced, is not for me. At least not based on the sound made during the demonstration I attended.

Those looking for top-notch commercially produced valve amps on a budget, which sound rather less old-fashioned, should instead check out Glenn Croft's entry-level designs or perhaps some of the excellent (UK-tested as safe) Chinese gear.

I'll go off now and read your, no doubt, excellent show report :)

Marco.

colinB

02-10-2010, 17:35

Interesting to here others views on Icon Audio. One reason i was looking forward to the show was to look for a suitable power amp to link with my PS1. They do seem to like using Mullard valves and Jenson caps which i believe are soft and warm in presentation. I wonder if thats what you hear and when you refer to woolly sound.

Marco

02-10-2010, 18:24

Quite possibly, Colin, as I've experienced exactly what you've described. When I removed the Jensen electrolytic caps in my Croft preamp, and replaced them with SCR Teflons, the sound opened up big time and was far more realistic and uncoloured. It was also the same when I replaced Mullard ECC35s for NOS Brimar CV1985s, and then latterly, NOS GE 5691s.

The thing for me is that I never got into valves to obtain a 'cuddly' or 'romantic' sound. I came to them from having owned Naim gear for six years. I was looking for a 'thermionic' version of Naim, to get the best of both valve and solid-state (and found it!), and so don't get off on the traditional 'valviness' some others like in their valve amps, which is of course absolutely fine.

Don't get me wrong though, I would never form a conclusive opinion on any hi-fi equipment based solely on a demo at a show.

However, had I been a potential customer, nothing I heard in the Icon Audio room would've made me want to investigate their gear further, which is the whole point of a show demo :)

Marco.

colinB

02-10-2010, 18:49

Had a look at the Croft website Marco, am i right in thinking his power amps are all hybrid designs, valve inputs and mosfet outputs?

hifi_dave

02-10-2010, 18:55

Correct.

Marco

02-10-2010, 19:07

Yep, as from selling it Dave would know :)

Are you tempted by the Croft stuff then, Colin?

Marco.

colinB

02-10-2010, 19:10

Ok. I guess my next stupid question is what advantages does such a circuit have over all valve designs. Sorry if this is of topic but im very curious ( and ignorant of such things)

Reid Malenfant

02-10-2010, 19:28

Lack of output transformers, better damping factor & in theory a much wider bandwidth. There may well be other things that are relevant, these are just the ones that popped into my head when i saw your question.

They should be more efficient as well while i think about it :eyebrows:

colinB

02-10-2010, 19:38

hifi_dave

02-10-2010, 19:41

You can't monoblock them..:doh:

colinB

02-10-2010, 19:47

My next stupid question would have to be how would they fare with 86db monitor speakers?

Reid Malenfant

02-10-2010, 19:47

Blimey! Ill have two please.
Croft are not the only people combining valves & mosfets/transistors, Pathos also use the same kind of arrangement on at least some of their amplifiers ;)

The "Twin Towers" springs to mind, this may well have been renamed though - no need to ask why :doh:

My next stupid question would have to be how would they fare with 86db monitor speakers?
Better than most unless you happen to have a pair of Jadis JA200 monoblocks :eyebrows:

hifi_dave

02-10-2010, 19:59

My next stupid question would have to be how would they fare with 86db monitor speakers?

They've got plenty of drive but what are the speakers ?

colinB

02-10-2010, 20:11

AVI neutron 5s

hifi_dave

02-10-2010, 20:16

No problem there for a Croft Series Seven.

YNWaN

02-10-2010, 20:30

I'm pretty sure that Conrad Johnson have combined valves with mosfets in the past.

hifi_dave

02-10-2010, 20:40

The first I was aware of was the Counterpoint SA1 (was it ?) but I think Crofty has done it better than most and at a beer budget price..:cool:

The Grand Wazoo

02-10-2010, 22:25

Counterpoint SA12 Dave

6DJ8's on the front end & Mosfets on the output. The Mosfets were hanging on the outside of the chassis between the heatsinks fins like the old Levinsons

The Grand Wazoo

02-10-2010, 22:34

Like so:

http://img2.blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ybi/1/7c/4a/alpus_at/folder/1778331/img_1778331_60015369_4?1267615858

http://www.cinereaudio.com/uploads/1/6/4/0/1640145/6975810.jpg

hifi_dave

02-10-2010, 22:40

That's the one, the SA12. Sounded like a bag of nails as did the Counterpoint pre of the time and both were so microphonic you could play tunes on the casework..:eek:

The Grand Wazoo

02-10-2010, 22:53

That's it!
Poor man's Krell, me arse!

Speaking of poor man's Krells what about the Robertson 4010?

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/10/148042_thumb_493fa684e993113292a760ffe0a2a855.jpg

DSJR

03-10-2010, 09:36

Look at the better pro amps (not for N5's though as you may blow them...). MC2 make some of the best these days I understand.