View Full Version : The Garrard 301 vs 1200 dilemma
Well, I could really use some opinions on a dilemma I'm having? I have a lead an a Garrard 301 in great shape... My question is if I should pick it up and invest a couple thousands into it to bring it up to snuff or if I should continue on the upgrade path my Technics M5G.
Any feedback and suggestions for either argument would be appreciated. Unfortunately I can't afford to mod both...:( Keep both yes but upgrades on the 1200 would have to stop.
Would a well sorted 301 sound better then a sorted 1200?
What would you do!
Thanks in advance for your replies!
If you can hear a fully mod 301 and 1210 it might help
To be honest both are great TT but have different strengths I am more familar with the 401 myself Either way you will win and both will keep value the 301 probarly a bit better
It really is goingto come down to personal peferences...sorry but this one you need to figure out for yourself
Hi Dan,
It's like John says, it really boils down to personal taste.
Had you not got a MK5G Techie and started upgrading that and were deciding whether to go the Garrard or Techie route from scratch, I'd have said go for the Garrard, as ultimately there is less to do to get it performing optimally (quality of plinth being most important here), and a well sorted 301 will always be more desirable with the audiophile fraternity, so thus will hold its value more and repay you for any high quality and sympathetic modifications you carry out.
The same is unlikely to be said for a fully modified Techie, although this is changing as more and more people are learning, through forums like this, that it truly has the potential to become one of the best sounding turntables you can buy.
Sound-wise between the two when both are 'well sorted' - there are so many variables to consider, but generally the Garrard will always trump the Techie in terms of bass power and depth, due in no small part to its truly massive motor, and it has a sort of 'infectious musicality' that the Techie lacks, with it tending to sound rather more 'digital like' (some would say that's no bad thing) in its sonic presentation. The Garrard can also sound somewhat 'opaque' in comparison, lacking absolute clarity at the top end.
The Techie is generally 'cleaner' sounding and more precise at the top end (ultimately it has more resolution here, I feel), which gives it a very wide-open sound in terms of dynamic contrasts, and the bass is generally tighter and more 'stop/start' in nature, with a tendency to have more 'slam' (especially with well-produced 12" 45 R.P.M singles), compared to the Garrard's powerful, but rather 'big n bouncy' bass - again much depends here on the type of plinth used on the Garrard.
Ultimately, although I love 301s, I prefer the results obtained with direct-drive, done well, as I feel it's fundamentally more accurate and thus liable to get you closer to the 'truth', more faithfully reproducing what's contained within those vinyl grooves.....
That's just my opinion, though - others will have different views. Ultimately, you'll have to find out for yourself, so enjoy the journey.....! :)
Marco.
Hi Dan,
I have a 301 and a more neutral sounding rim drive (Salvation) too. The way Marco describes the 301 is very much correct IMO (he has heard mine). A 301 shouldn't cost a lot to fettle, mostly it's down to the plinth. Slate is a great option, if you get it done as a one-off at a local stone mason it should be around $300 to $400.
A lot depends on the sound you want and your view on future value and whether this matters to you.
I will mention one aspect re my 301, I have matched it with a phono stage with tweaked parts that suit the 301, the phono stage on a neutral deck is bright, on the 301 it's just right, so phono stage matching can help with what some might call the downside of a 301.
Clive
The 301 is a much cherished and venerable antique which is inevitably of its time, with the drive noise harmonics unavoidable, if not noticable in many systems. The main value will be financial and the pleasure of owning something made so long ago and still giving so much pleasure..
As for the Techie, even in standard stock trim, all the measurable parameters will be on an altogether higher plain - W&F, speed stability over all sorts of physical loading, mains voltage/frequency immunity and rumble-noise. Even shock immunity will be fair and easily improved with modified feet. Whether you'll have the same sentimentality over it is another matter of course.
The 301 is a much cherished and venerable antique which is inevitably of its time, with the drive noise harmonics unavoidable, if not noticable in many systems. The main value will be financial and the pleasure of owning something made so long ago and still giving so much pleasure..
As for the Techie, even in standard stock trim, all the measurable parameters will be on an altogether higher plain - W&F, speed stability over all sorts of physical loading, mains voltage/frequency immunity and rumble-noise. Even shock immunity will be fair and easily improved with modified feet. Whether you'll have the same sentimentality over it is another matter of course.
Dave,
Just to clarify my position.....I don't position the 301 as a wonder deck, indeed of my 2 decks it's my 2nd favourite. Yes motor harmonics are partly (majorly) responsible for its sound, just as various resonances are with all decks, if not they'd all sound the same!
The 301 does make a very enjoyable deck, it's not high end, it is coloured. There is also something else to take into account, the joy some find in simply using this deck. Let's face it playing records is often partly about the involvement in ceremony.
Clive
Thanks for all your responses!
The thing about the Technics is that it also has sentimental value to me being a DJ in my younger years... my 1200 was everything to me:). But that being said I really have a thing for antiques and truly believe they don't make things like they used to. If I could have a vintage turntable that sounds as good as a modern one that would be fantastic!
I'm going to go look at the 301 in a few hours and If it looks good I'll likely come home with it. I think what I'll end up doing is upgrading both but I'll just do it over time so the financial burden isnt so large.
To be honest I never thought the 1200 could sound so good until I started doing the upgrades.. The power supply I built really surprised me in that regard, it really made an enormous difference in sound quality!
I'll let you all know if I get the 301 and I'll post some pictures if I do:)
Thanks!
The 301 should be eaiser to upgrade but also worth getting serviced
Thanks for all your responses!
The thing about the Technics is that it also has sentimental value to me being a DJ in my younger years... my 1200 was everything to me:). But that being said I really have a thing for antiques and truly believe they don't make things like they used to. If I could have a vintage turntable that sounds as good as a modern one that would be fantastic!
I'm going to go look at the 301 in a few hours and If it looks good I'll likely come home with it. I think what I'll end up doing is upgrading both but I'll just do it over time so the financial burden isnt so large.
To be honest I never thought the 1200 could sound so good until I started doing the upgrades.. The power supply I built really surprised me in that regard, it really made an enormous difference in sound quality!
I'll let you all know if I get the 301 and I'll post some pictures if I do:)
Thanks!
They DO make things like they used to - the Techie goes back to roots in 1970 - that's FORTY years ago now and the 1200mk2 has its birth around 1980 desn't it?
The Techie is where my money for now should go - imo - the Garrard should be retained for later :)
They DO make things like they used to - the Techie goes back to roots in 1970 - that's FORTY years ago now and the 1200mk2 has its birth around 1980 desn't it?
The Techie is where my money for now should go - imo - the Garrard should be retained for later :)
Actually I disagree... The Technics is still a vintage table that just happens to still be built to those good old standards I'm talking about. Also I was generalizing not being specific to one product;)
The technics is an exception..
Well it's a boy!! Yes I got it!!
The good news is that it's like new! Not a mark on it. The bad news is that the Rek-o-kut arm has a broken pivot bushing/bearing and probably can't be fixed...
Even with a broken arm, a 40 year old needle of unknown condition, and a cardboard box as a plinth it still sounds wicked! Holly huge monster bass! You guys weren't kidding! It actually sounds really good as is! I can't wait to get it sorted the end result should be incredible.
Does anyone know if that arm can be fixed? Is it even worth trying to fix it?
Thanks!
2618
Speak to Audio Orgami about the arm I do not know it so not able to say if its worth repairing as Clive says a slate plinth would really help
Looks really nice I am sure when up and running you be blown away even more
Looks great Dan! Well done, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
I see it's a non-strobe version. To my eyes that suits a 301 whereas the strobe platter suits a 401.
Looks great. Have loads of fun with it :)
Rek-o-kut bits come up often on US fleabay, so you may be able to restore it to some semblance of good quality ;)
chris@panteg
17-09-2010, 09:35
Looks superb , well you could go the whole hog and get an SME 312:) now that could put an even bigger grin on your face , a lot of dosh though .
Jammy bugger, Dan - you landed one with a Rek-o-Kut arm, too! Nice one. Those are one of my favourite vintage tonearms :)
I hope you can fix the arm. They're notoriously difficult to repair, as I believe parts of the arm aren't accessible. If anyone can sort it, though, Johnny can...
If you do manage to get it fixed then the cartridge to use is a Shure M3D, as it's tailor-made for the high-mass of the Rek-o-Kut.
Good luck, enjoy, and keep us updated on events :cool:
Marco.
Thanks everyone! I'm so thrilled it's not funny!! It runs so well and it's dead silent! It honestly looks like it was never used.
Marco. As far as the arm goes it already has a Shure M3D in it :) Maybe that's why it doesn't sound bad as it is! Who did you say could repair the arm? Do you have contact information for that person?
I think I'm going to go with a slate plinth and either an SME 312s which I can get a good deal on locally or a SME M2-12R, with that arm it will it least look a bit more period correct! I must admit I like the look of the 302 much better though! Any opinions on my choices?
I actually feel bad that my 1200 is taking a backseat is that stupid or what! When I said it had sentimental value to me I wasn't kidding;)
Thanks for all the advice it's greatly appreciated!
Slate should help matters with the motor. it should be a fun ride
Maybe inthe future you can have both up and running besides each other
Who did you say could repair the arm? Do you have contact information for that person?
Johnnie at Audio Origami - http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/
I think a SME 312, Jelco 12" or even a SME 3012 (at the huge prices they fetch today) with P1 spacer would be better than an M2-12. I just have this feeling......................
Ali Tait
17-09-2010, 15:27
I know little about turntables,but a friend who had a 301 said it was the best sounding table he'd ever had,but the downside was he had to constantly fiddle with it to keep it sounding at it's best.Looks a very good one though,and if the 401's I've heard are anything to go by,a slate plinth will transform it!
Hi Dan,
Marco. As far as the arm goes it already has a Shure M3D in it. Maybe that's why it doesn't sound bad as it is!
Ah, I thought that might be the case, but it wasn't clear from the picture. Yes, that's probably why it sounds ok even now. An optimally functioning Rek-o-Kut arm and M3D are truly a match made in heaven, so good luck! :)
I think I'm going to go with a slate plinth and either an SME 312s which I can get a good deal on locally or a SME M2-12R, with that arm it will it least look a bit more period correct! I must admit I like the look of the 302 much better though! Any opinions on my choices?
Good ideas there... However, a vintage SME 3012 (or 3009) would, IMO, be the most appropriate choice, and if you're getting a custom-made plinth made, then why not have it made big enough to take two arms? You could then use an SME and the Rek-o-Kut, presuming the latter can be rescued.
I actually feel bad that my 1200 is taking a backseat is that stupid or what! When I said it had sentimental value to me I wasn't kidding;)
Thanks for all the advice it's greatly appreciated!
You're very welcome. Don't feel bad about your 1200 taking a back seat... Like you say, that can be another project for later.
I totally understand why you are so taken with the 301 - it's a lovely deck with a unique sound, so enjoy it. Best of luck with modifying it. There'll certainly be lots of advice on here in that respect should you need it.
Meanwhile, here's a nice close-up of the underneath of the 301, showing that huge 'f*ck off' motor largely responsible for the seismic bass you so love!
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2685/ag301aug7.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/i/ag301aug7.jpg/)
:stalks: :eek:
Marco.
Thanks for all the info everyone!
Does anybody have any recommendations as far as what grease to use in the grease bearing? I cleaned it out and used a synthetic bearing grease but have no idea what the original stuff looked like so I don't know if it's too thick? Should the centre shaft have a bit of resistance when spinning it by hand?
People talk about the oil bearing but not what to use for the greaser!
Marco, that's a stunning 301!! Is it yours? Looks like it's brand new!
Also does this forum have any sponsors that give discounts on new SME tonearms? :)
Thanks!!
One more thing.... People talk about all these areas to oil the motor and this felt that stores the oil for the motor and I have no idea what they're talking about... I took the electric motor apart to clean and oil but I found no such areas or parts? Could something be missing... The motor looks like it had never been opened to me??
Thanks!
From memory, the motor bushings are sintered, so should retain oil for decades. I believe there may be felt washers somewhere around the bottom motor bearing.
As for grease, try Loricraft. I don't think there's anything that they don't know about these decks.
Great if you've found a 301 that hasn't been got at by several generations of audio enthusiasts over the decades ;)
I was hoping to use something I had on hand... I loaded the spindle right up full with synthetic grease. I hope that does the job! It's grease, it's synthetic, and I loaded it right up. I doubt that lack of lubrication will be a problem.
My biggest concern was the viscosity of that grease! If it too thick or not...
Should the grease bearing have a bit of resistance when spinning it by hand?
Clive might know as he has a 301 but agree with Dave Loricraft really know this deck inside out
Marco, that's a stunning 301!! Is it yours? Looks like it's brand new!
Lol - no, it's not. I wish it was! :)
I agree that Loricraft are the ones for all info on Garrards.
Marco.
One more thing.... People talk about all these areas to oil the motor and this felt that stores the oil for the motor and I have no idea what they're talking about... I took the electric motor apart to clean and oil but I found no such areas or parts? Could something be missing... The motor looks like it had never been opened to me??
Thanks!
At least I'm not alone.....I too found no such felt washers in mine and I'm 90% certain it had never been taken apart. It had just one owner before me, of that I am sure. Maybe early cream 301s didn't have these.
Re the grease from another post of yours, dumb question...it is a greaser, not oil bearing that you have? There were some cream 301 greasers so it's perfectly possible. It would also make it an early cream 301.
Mine's an oil bearing, I now have a gel in the bearing but in the past I've used 80W90 transmission oil. Others use super thin Mobil 1, there's a lot of religion around this....in the end the bearings are pretty forgiving, especially the grease ones as the tolerances are wide.
There should be resistance when rotating the spindle, even with the oil bearings.
Loricraft are licensed with the Garrard name and part of their remit is to totally strip out these decks and fully restore and clean them, the result probably being better than new. It's not a cheap job, but I wouldn't entrust a vintage Garrard to anyone else...
YES, I have a grease bearing and I've also figured out where the felt washers are!
It's actually very simple, so to be honest unless you're really not a DIY type, it's really worth doing it yourself and it's also quite easy to do!
If you look at the top and bottom covers of the motor there is a small silver metal plate held on by 4 rivets... The felt in under that!
I did everything except open that up because I'm confident I was able to get oil into it without removing the plate.
I've already totally stripped the unit down and rebuilt it and now it really runs great!
Thanks for all the replys!
Peter Stockwell
24-09-2010, 11:02
FWIW, I sold my Bastin Plinthed, super toleranced bearing Garrard 401 to Keep a Teccie, which at the time only had the KAB Psu power supply upgrade.
Marco's early post in this thread pretty much nails the sound difference between Tecci and Garrard. Loads of authority from the Garrard, but maybe lacking some finesse. Great agility from the Teccie, but, compared with the Garrard, lighter in the bass.
I think, if you are itching to get a Garrard, get the 301, live with it until you get fed up with the quirks (speed drift, anybody ?) and then go back to a Teccie.
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