View Full Version : Leaving my preamp on
Is it ok to permanently leave my preamp that has a separate psu powered on ?
It has one of those psu’s like a phone charger only much bigger ( 18v I think )
I/we basically listen to fm for a few hours each the morning .
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depends.....;) i leave my laptop on all time
I leave all my preamps on 24/7. I have done this for years without any problems.
I leave all my preamps on 24/7. I have done this for years without any problems.
Cool [emoji1303]
Thanks
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Pigmy Pony
25-09-2023, 19:04
Although not a pre amp, the Arcam integrated in my second system is on 24/7. Has been for 18 months now. I have an Echo Dot connected to it, and is handy for asking Alexa what the weather will be tomorrow, play R6 Music, or how old Cliff Richard is* To have to switch the amp on first would be a pain.
Amp seems happy with the arrangement.
*Cliff is 82 in case you were wondering.
I read yesterday how a guy had left his pre and power on 24/7 for 17 years [emoji1787]
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Stryder5
25-09-2023, 21:44
I read yesterday how a guy had left his pre and power on 24/7 for 17 years [emoji1787]
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My TagMclaren F3 cd transport has been on continuously for over 25 years, still going strong.
My Pre and power amps are on 24/7/360.
DAC’s are on continuous, depending on which one I’m using.
I have been responsible for running many thousands of IT equipment globally, historically we had larger failure rates with equipment that was frequently switched on and off, and indeed switched off after a long period being on, refusing to restart.
Gary
walpurgis
26-09-2023, 07:49
What is the procedure if going on holiday? It doesn't seem a great idea to leave equipment powered up when nobody is around.
And what is the home insurance position? (even if some manufacturers may suggest leaving gear on) I wouldn't like to battle with a fire claim on this.
Beobloke
26-09-2023, 08:07
Do you leave your oven on when you’re not cooking anything?
Do you leave your shower running when you’re not having a wash?
Do you leave your car engine running when you’re not going anywhere?
If you answered ‘No’ to all these, then why would you leave any of your hi-fi powered on 24/7, unless you are particularly keen to wear it out more quickly?
Do you leave your oven on when you’re not cooking anything?
Do you leave your shower running when you’re not having a wash?
Do you leave your car engine running when you’re not going anywhere?
If you answered ‘No’ to all these, then why would you leave any of your hi-fi powered on 24/7, unless you are particularly keen to wear it out more quickly?
I did ask because it makes sense to me that surely you’re accelerating the degradation of components. [emoji2369]
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my laptop is usually left on. mind you its also used as a plex server and a roon server etc and thats why as can stream upstairs etc. it gets restarted on occasion of course and is off at times if its not needed.
Stryder5
26-09-2023, 09:55
Do you leave your oven on when you’re not cooking anything?
Do you leave your shower running when you’re not having a wash?
Do you leave your car engine running when you’re not going anywhere?
If you answered ‘No’ to all these, then why would you leave any of your hi-fi powered on 24/7, unless you are particularly keen to wear it out more quickly?
No, I don’t. Strangely I don’t listen to music through any of those devices either!
Gary
Beobloke
26-09-2023, 10:56
I did ask because it makes sense to me that surely you’re accelerating the degradation of components.
You are indeed.
Let’s consider our old friend the electrolytic capacitor for a minute. These have a defined lifespan and they degrade mainly due to heat and consequent evaporation of the electrolyte inside. (there are more things that contribute to this lifespan, but let’s keep it simple for now, and heat is the big one).
Picking a nice capacitor completely at random from the RS website, a 1000uF 25V Panasonic FR series item has a rated lifespan of 10000 hours. Now, if you’re listening to the radio for 2 hours a day, 365 days a year, then your capacitor should last for nigh on 14 years. However, leave your equipment on all the time and suddenly your little cap will be gasping for breath after only a year and a bit.
Now, don’t panic too much, as that 10,000 hours will be very much a worst case scenario – for example, my chosen capacitor has a 105degC temperature rating and lifespan increases by a factor of 2 for every 10degC reduction in temperature so, for your average bit of hi-fi that isn’t Class A or valve, and barely gets above 40degC internally, they’ll last a lot longer. However, the comparative point still stands. Leave your equipment on all the time and, whether you like it or not, you are wilfully shortening its lifespan.
Finally, remember a capacitor won’t work perfectly up to 9999.9 hours and then suddenly die. Its performance will start to degrade before the end is nigh so there is a lovely irony that, if you’re keeping your equipment powered continually so that it “sounds its best”, you’re actually accelerating it towards the time when it will stop sounding its best as the specifications of its internal components start to drift and worsen with age.
You are indeed.
Let’s consider our old friend the electrolytic capacitor for a minute. These have a defined lifespan and they degrade mainly due to heat and consequent evaporation of the electrolyte inside. (there are more things that contribute to this lifespan, but let’s keep it simple for now, and heat is the big one).
Picking a nice capacitor completely at random from the RS website, a 1000uF 25V Panasonic FR series item has a rated lifespan of 10000 hours. Now, if you’re listening to the radio for 2 hours a day, 365 days a year, then your capacitor should last for nigh on 14 years. However, leave your equipment on all the time and suddenly your little cap will be gasping for breath after only a year and a bit.
Now, don’t panic too much, as that 10,000 hours will be very much a worst case scenario – for example, my chosen capacitor has a 105degC temperature rating and lifespan increases by a factor of 2 for every 10degC reduction in temperature so, for your average bit of hi-fi that isn’t Class A or valve, and barely gets above 40degC internally, they’ll last a lot longer. However, the comparative point still stands. Leave your equipment on all the time and, whether you like it or not, you are wilfully shortening its lifespan.
Finally, remember a capacitor won’t work perfectly up to 9999.9 hours and then suddenly die. Its performance will start to degrade before the end is nigh so there is a lovely irony that, if you’re keeping your equipment powered continually so that it “sounds its best”, you’re actually accelerating it towards the time when it will stop sounding its best as the specifications of its internal components start to drift and worsen with age.
totally agree ......
just to add that the thermal shock of switching on and off ...is also a relevant process in the failure of components. electronic very much likes to be in equilibrium and not transitioning between on and off etc.
totally agree ......
just to add that the thermal shock of switching on and off ...is also a relevant process in the failure of components. electronic very much likes to be in equilibrium and not transitioning between on and off etc.
true no electrics bar soft start stuff likes being powered on/off, but components being on 24/7 is wasteful. some have a standby of course which can be a bit of a halfway house
My preamps are intended, and are designed, to be left on all the time - they don't possess an on/off switch.
The old incandescent light bulb mostly blew at switch on when the element is cold and max current flows. When an amp that is warm cools down, condensation occurs and the PCB that has been expanding and contracting is now in a damp environment, so potential problems.
Caps can last 30 to 40 years so I would rather leave the amp powered on. I leave my valve line stage on too. I use an idea from Morgan Jones where he describes a standby switch that toggles between two resistors in the Adj. leg of an LM317 that feeds the filaments. The resistors are sized to provide either 6.3V or 4V (roughly 2/3) This reduced voltage he explains will not poison the cathodes.
So when I switch to standby the heaters drop to about 4V and the B+ is disconnected. When I flip the switch the heaters quickly reach nominal V while the B+ is delayed by relay for about 20 seconds. I find this works very nicely. The amp stays gently warm and is ready to play in a short time.
The comparison between an incandescent bulb and audio equipment is a false one, bulbs blow on switch on because the element is very thin and degrades fairly fast with use.
I can see why you would want some system to keep a valve amp in standby as they do take a while to stabilise from switch on - mostly. Although this also is the case with some solid state amps.
I leave it all switched off as I can live with the fairly short stabilisation time and I know 24/7 people who have come home to catastrophic failures.
Plus the amp uses a couple of hundred watts an hour so leaving it on is just burning money, especially these days. The DAC sits in standby, unless I go away for a few days or more. In that case everything gets switched off at the wall and unplugged too.
cube-tube
27-09-2023, 21:17
Do you leave your oven on when you’re not cooking anything?
Do you leave your shower running when you’re not having a wash?
Do you leave your car engine running when you’re not going anywhere?
If you answered ‘No’ to all these, then why would you leave any of your hi-fi powered on 24/7, unless you are particularly keen to wear it out more quickly?
To those first three questions... Totally different situations that don't apply to the subject at hand. Apples and oranges.
And, you're totally wrong about equipment being left on 24/7 "wearing out" more quickly. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Leaving gear on 24/7 actually extends its life.
There are companies that even promote leaving their gear on 24/7 and even design their gear around that, such as my Pass Labs XP-20 preamp. It doesn't even have a power switch on it anywhere! I believe my Odyssey Stratos amps are even meant to be left on 24/7 as the ONLY power switch is on the rear of the chassis.
I have been leaving my entire system on 24/7 for the past 20 years or so with ZERO failures. And on top of that, there's ALWAYS music playing, even when we're asleep at night or at work. The only time the system is off/unplugged from the wall is when there's a thunder storm, if I'm changing out a piece of equipment, or we're gone for more than a day, which almost never happens.
My Mark Levinson preamps don't have a power switch either, and are meant to be left on all the time.
The HD audio preamp doesn’t have any switches.
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I don't think I've ever seen any professional equipment that didn't have an on/off switch. You only see it on some 'high end' hifi gear, or gear pretending to be high end. And only from late 1970s onwards.
Why is that? I think the whole thing started with Naim and the myth that it took days to 'come on song' from cold. Then the punters came to associate it with quality equipment.
What the market demands, it gets.
dantheman91
28-09-2023, 07:09
Only my DAC PSU is on 24/7 rest is switched on when in use and off when not
No wonder leccy costs are so high :(
Beobloke
28-09-2023, 10:30
And, you're totally wrong about equipment being left on 24/7 "wearing out" more quickly. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Leaving gear on 24/7 actually extends its life.
I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. The failure mechanisms of electrolytic capacitors in particular are very well known and the number one enemy of them is heat, as I said. If you're leaving your equipment switched on 24/7 then you are keeping them all nice and toasty which will shorten their life. Admittedly, you might be shortening it from 25 years to 15 years, which you may not care about, but you are still wilfully shortening it.
Whilst it is also true that repeated switching on and off can cause premature failure, this is in the sort of conditions where the equipment is activated and deactivated continually at a rate of something like 30 seconds on/30 seconds off and applies to industrial machinery, not hi-fi.
In fact, it's probably easiest to just quote the words of United Chemi-Con, one of the world's largest manufacturers of capacitors: "For the inrush current that can occur on the start-up of a power supply, this may be of a magnitude 10-100 times greater then the normal current, however it only lasts milliseconds. Usually a single, non-repeated inrush current produces a negligibly small amount of heat, so it does not matter".
As a final thought, one well-known manufacturer I can think of recommends leaving their equipment on 24/7. They also recommend a full re-cap every 10 years. Coincidence?
Not to mention the EE who sarcastically recommends everyone to leave everything switched on all the time as it means a plentiful supply of repair work for him.
karma1967
28-09-2023, 15:59
Do you leave your oven on when you’re not cooking anything?
Do you leave your shower running when you’re not having a wash?
Do you leave your car engine running when you’re not going anywhere?
If you answered ‘No’ to all these, then why would you leave any of your hi-fi powered on 24/7, unless you are particularly keen to wear it out more quickly?
brilliant reply adam!
brilliant reply adam!
I leave my fridge and freezer on 24/7
My electrostatic speakers have been left powered on for the last 45 years.
Beobloke
12-10-2023, 11:42
I leave my fridge and freezer on 24/7
Probably for the best.
They were designed to be left on 24/7 and the contents need to be kept cool/cold all the time so I'm not really sure what your point is.
Probably for the best.
They were designed to be left on 24/7 and the contents need to be kept cool/cold all the time so I'm not really sure what your point is.
misplaced humor - but on a serious note the tubes in my GRAAF 13.5b2 always stay lit so I guess they have power going to the heaters 24/7. Some elecronics must benefit from avoiding the on/off cycle
misplaced humor - but on a serious note the tubes in my GRAAF 13.5b2 always stay lit so I guess they have power going to the heaters 24/7. Some elecronics must benefit from avoiding the on/off cycle
I thought keeping the heaters on, but not applying HT to the anode caused cathode 'poisoning'.
I thought keeping the heaters on, but not applying HT to the anode caused cathode 'poisoning'.
some crt's used to get something that if the heaters were underperforming. not sure its as much of an issue in modern valves
I am sure Mr Mariani, knew what he was doing
Lawrence001
12-10-2023, 18:08
I am sure Mr Mariani, knew what he was doingWasn't he in the Karate Kid?
Wasn't he in the Karate Kid?
'Switch on - switch off'.
cube-tube
12-10-2023, 19:25
I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. The failure mechanisms of electrolytic capacitors in particular are very well known and the number one enemy of them is heat, as I said. If you're leaving your equipment switched on 24/7 then you are keeping them all nice and toasty which will shorten their life. Admittedly, you might be shortening it from 25 years to 15 years, which you may not care about, but you are still wilfully shortening it.
Whilst it is also true that repeated switching on and off can cause premature failure, this is in the sort of conditions where the equipment is activated and deactivated continually at a rate of something like 30 seconds on/30 seconds off and applies to industrial machinery, not hi-fi.
In fact, it's probably easiest to just quote the words of United Chemi-Con, one of the world's largest manufacturers of capacitors: "For the inrush current that can occur on the start-up of a power supply, this may be of a magnitude 10-100 times greater then the normal current, however it only lasts milliseconds. Usually a single, non-repeated inrush current produces a negligibly small amount of heat, so it does not matter".
As a final thought, one well-known manufacturer I can think of recommends leaving their equipment on 24/7. They also recommend a full re-cap every 10 years. Coincidence?
That's fine. Read what you want, do what you want, believe what you want.
The majority of capacitors are rated at 105*C, some a little lower, some a little higher. I can tell you that NONE of the capacitors in any of my gear get to even half of that, so keeping them "toasty" as you say is also a moot point.
And just in case you never noticed, there's a lot more inside our audio gear than just capacitors, and a lot more reasons as to why it's better to keep the gear on 24/7.
Anywho... Enjoy!
And just in case you never noticed, there's a lot more inside our audio gear than just capacitors.
He's an EE so suspect he has noticed.
He's also right.
Capacitor lifetime is measured in hours for a reason.
Beobloke
13-10-2023, 11:56
And just in case you never noticed, there's a lot more inside our audio gear than just capacitors,
Anywho... Enjoy!
As Martin said, I'm an electronic engineer by profession so I am aware of this. However, a lot of those other components genuinely won't care if you switch on and off regularly, or keep the equipment powered continually - hence why 're-resistoring' isn't a thing. Electrolytic capacitors definitely will, though, except for the ones in your gear, apparently.
.....and a lot more reasons as to why it's better to keep the gear on 24/7....
Anywho... Enjoy!
No, there really aren't. But don't let that stop you if it makes you happy.
hifi_dave
13-10-2023, 16:25
As Martin said, I'm an electronic engineer by profession so I am aware of this. However, a lot of those other components genuinely won't care if you switch on and off regularly, or keep the equipment powered continually - hence why 're-resistoring' isn't a thing. Electrolytic capacitors definitely will, though, except for the ones in your gear, apparently.
No, there really aren't. But don't let that stop you if it makes you happy.
Don't spoil a good story with the truth.
Some companies make a good living out of replacing caps.
hifinutt
13-10-2023, 18:31
my pre amps are designed to be left on 24/7 . the display goes off after 2 hours of no signal . 2 of them like this
As are mine (all three of them), but none of them have displays.
what does it mean 'designed to be left on 24/7'?
Do you mean they go into standby mode?
None of them have power switches. I think it says why in the operating instructions.
I also have a professional standard CDP (a Revox C221) which has a power switch on the rear, yet if rack-mounted the switch is inaccessible.
None of them have power switches. I think it says why in the operating instructions.
I also have a professional standard CDP (a Revox C221) which has a power switch on the rear, yet if rack-mounted the switch is inaccessible.
Studio of any size would have master switches, you wouldn't go round switching every individual bit of equipment on and off every day. It would take ages.
Studio of any size would have master switches, you wouldn't go round switching every individual bit of equipment on and off every day. It would take ages.
I have a dedicated ring main for my audio system, but I'm not going to dive into the meter cupboard to switch it off when I have finished listening. I'll just switch off the power amps as usual.
I know quite a few folk who leave amps on 24/7 but it is not something I would do with my valve amps!:eek:
If your amp does have stand by mode - what is the point other than you don't have to bend down and switch it on or off and I get this AKA TV? But there are no sonic benefits of stand by as the amp is not powered up and warm surely?
Anything with a switch is made to be powered on and off and that's why you don't see an on/off switch on a fridge. It is designed to remain on.
I get the whole idea of amps sounding better when they are warmed up but all you need to do is switch them on an hour before use?
I run valves so the whole thing is a white knuckle ride what with degradation of components, heat and varying levels of SQ depending on age and use.
I wonder why I bother using them;)
However I did watch a video recently where a recording studio cutting discs used valve preamps that were left on for years!
Valve equipment in telecommunications was left on for years - but that didn't mean they never had to replace any valves or other components. it was done becuase it was necessary for the application.
Likewise a refrigerator would have a longer life if it wasn't running 24/7. But then all your food would go off.
The only issue with switching off things like amplifiers is that some designs will take time to stabilise after switch-on. Unless badly designed that's at most a minute or two.
If in standby and depending on how the standby feature is designed, that can be avoided.
Many hi-fi designers subscribe to the myth that leaving it on all the time makes it sound better, and even if they don't they know a lot of their punters do. So they cater for it by sticking the power switch on the back. Just because some kit has that feature it doesn't mean there's any benefit to it.
Pigmy Pony
14-10-2023, 09:33
The psu for my turntable is on the back, but I always switch it off when not used, as I do with all of my kit. Apart from the CD player, which goes into standby after 15 minutes of non-use. I just feel safer that way.
The Arcam amp on my second set up stays on all the time for convenience, but the amp was for free, so I'm not too bothered about that.
Lawrence001
14-10-2023, 10:10
I don't like leaving the power on, even the light on my power block and the amp is in standby so I shut down everything in the right order and switch off at the socket.
IMO anything that can be switched on with a remote or has a standby light is consuming power all the time and I don't like that.
I don't like leaving the power on, even the light on my power block and the amp is in standby so I shut down everything in the right order and switch off at the socket.
IMO anything that can be switched on with a remote or has a standby light is consuming power all the time and I don't like that.
I'm the same always switch on and off in correct order.
I do leave the cable box and the telly in standby though. And the router is always on. But I can kill the lot from just one switch if I am going away for more than 24 hours.
Think I worked out they use 6 watts all left in standyby. 52 kWH a year so about twenty quid a year. Roughly the same amount I lose down the side of the couch in the same period.
Pigmy Pony
14-10-2023, 11:59
Has anybody seen that advert for a fridge that has a glass door? Instead of opening it to see what's inside, you tap the glass twice and the fridge light up. So you can see what's inside. I guess it's supposed to save energy by not letting the cold out.
Stupid idea, just encourages food waste. You think you've run out of Benecol, turns out it's hiding behind all the cans of Carlsberg Special :( How would you know without having a good rummage.
Leaving HiFi kit on 24/7 probably wastes more and adds to everyone else's bill at the same time
Good point I ate a yogurt last night that had gone right to the back. Was still in date though.
Stick with my £75 one I think even though it does have a bit of rust on the door.
Pigmy Pony
14-10-2023, 12:32
Leaving HiFi kit on 24/7 probably wastes more and adds to everyone else's bill at the same time
How did you know about the 24-gang extension lead I have going into next door's garage? :D
How did you know about the 24-gang extension lead I have going into next door's garage? :DCos I saw my bill go up when you switched it on [emoji23]
Pigmy Pony
14-10-2023, 13:24
Cos I saw my bill go up when you switched it on [emoji23]
Yeah sorry about that. But you will have noticed an improvement since the police helicopter went over with the infra red :o
Lawrence001
14-10-2023, 16:11
Good point I ate a yogurt last night that had gone right to the back. Was still in date though.
Stick with my £75 one I think even though it does have a bit of rust on the door.Should add some iron to your food and save on supplements.
Pigmy Pony
16-10-2023, 19:08
Should add some iron to your food and save on supplements.
But you've got to strike the right balance, nutritionists now say too much iron can make you ginger. Which in itself isn't a bad thing, though my first girlfriend was a redhead and the maddest bint you could ever wish to avoid :(
'Red heads, strippers, anyone called Tiffany.'
Pigmy Pony
16-10-2023, 20:56
'Red heads, strippers, anyone called Tiffany.'
:D A tutorial with real value, shame we're not allowed to find it funny any more.
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