View Full Version : My personal thoughts on my system.
Enossification
15-09-2023, 09:47
Analogue or digital Hi-Fi ?
My own personal thoughts on my own personal system.
Front End: Denon DCD2500NE SACD/CD player.
Clearaudio Anniversary turntable with Clearaudio Unify tonearm.
Audio Technica AT-OC9 XML cartridge.
Heed Questar MC phono stage replaced Musical Fidelity LX2 LPS phono stage.
Preamp: Fidelity Audio Pre120SE.
Power amp: Usher R1.5
Loudspeakers: KEF R5
Interconnects: Atlas Hyper assymetrical.
Speaker cables: Tellurium Q Blue. Single wire.
With this, my best ever sound system, it has become more and more apparent that there is a huge difference between digital playback and vinyl. It has also become more apparent that I feel pressured into preferring one over the other. I think this maybe media based rather than any other.
My vinyl system triumphs over my digital front end by having a huge sound stage with masses more detail/resolution. With this in mind though, the old and now unused LX2 LPS phono stage was flat, lifeless and lacking in resolution thus showing that where vinyl is concerned small things can make a big difference.
Compact disc triumphs in having a gutsy, powerful, forward sound with propulsive bass low notes. This is great for electronic music and it's powerful extended bass frequencies.
A month or so back a very old friend of mine stayed over with myself and Sue so that we could do the customary curry and beer. He has a system based around a customised Thorens TD160 Super. We played Floyd's DSOTM on CD and vinyl. Twice each. Our conclusion was that the CD version was lacking in very low bass compared to my Clearaudio. Rob's main comment was that there was so much more detail with the Clearaudio and that he was "hearing things he'd never heard before".
So, with all this in mind what have I concluded ? None of it really matters any more. I like CD and it's convenience but I also like vinyl and it's precision. Both of them will live together hand in hand. Vinyl when that's what I want, CD when I don't.
As I'm getting old I find less and less time to be picky about one or the other. They'll both live together. Hopefully for quite a while longer.
Pete The Cat
15-09-2023, 10:47
Good to hear that you're pleased with your system.
I also run vinyl and CD and appreciate each for what they offer.
Back in the '80s, when I had a budget turntable, I found that CD was a leap forward in sound performance. I don't accept that I (along with a gazillion others) was hoodwinked by marketing and I didn't imagine it. My experience since has told me that a budget CD player will sound better than a budget turntable, but as you upgrade your vinyl rig you reach a point where it becomes a serious competitor to CD and from there it can kick on to become either better than or at least different in a fulfilling way.
I tend to start a session with vinyl and after a couple of beers switch to CD ;)
Pete
I agree - if you are happy with your system, whatever the source, then that is all that matters.
I'm often surprised by the audio quality of my vinyl playback; given the absurdly primitive method of playback - a tiny piece of shaped diamond dragged through a wriggly grove pressed into a disk of vinyl plastic. The distortion components run to several percent, but because they are predominantly secord order they are somewhat euphonic.
It can be misleading to A/B vinyl with a CD of the same music. You have to ensure the tape used to make both was the same. That said, I have no complaints about the quality of digital playback in my system, and appreciate the convenience and robustness of CDs. I'm happy with both formats.
What is interesting is how we choose the systems we have. In the '70s there seemed to be two schools of thought: one was to go for 'accuracy', a 'warts and all' approach to fidelity; the second was described as 'musicality', which promoted more emphasis on emotion and enjoyment of music playback. Neither taken to the extreme is correct, and ultimately with the continual development of playback equipment the two will converge. So in the meantime one has to choose one approach or the other.
I choose the path of accuracy, or as was once Quad's by-line "The Closest Approach to the Original Sound". This is not without it's own problems. The best example is to listen to live, unamplified music. You can't get much closer than that - yet when one listens to say, symphonic music in a concert hall, or to jazz in a nightclub, one can be startled by the sharp unmusical rasps of horn instruments. However I would much prefer that than some smooth more comfortable sound.
Also how one builds an audio system tends to be influenced by one's taste in music. My system uses speakers which cannot produce loud volume levels (100dB(A) absolute maximum); cannot produce deep bass (the response falls away rapidly below 100Hz), yet bass guitar is reproduced cleanly with no frequency doubling. They also have narrow dispersion in the vertical plane, limiting them to a 'one seat' listening position, yet the sound stage is deep and wide, extending beyond the speakers themselves and of the walls of the listening room. Despite all these limitations, which I'm sure many would call 'shortcomings', I use them because I'm not really interested in deep powerful bass, such as pipe organ, nor do I listen to loud rock music. What I do appreciate is their superbly clear midrange, where most music lies - the human voice especially.
So there you have it - choose a system that is right for you. Don't worry about what other people think of it - I have heard other enthusiast's systems which have not impressed me at all, yet when I see what their tastes in music are, I can understand why they have chosen the system they have. I never return home feeling disappointed with my own set up.
Happy listening!
Isn't it a case of one day it sounds great and others it sounds a bit shit? Well that's probably a bit of an extreme comparison, but temperament, mood and alignment of celestial beings probably has a bearing on whether your system sounds "right" or not.
I have always thought that vinyl replay was a lottery as to whether it sounded great or rubbish. Starting out with a Garrard SP25mkIV, at best I only had a Planar 1 with a middling cart. CD replay was hit and miss too, some great some not so despite modding a Marantz to within an inch of it's life and getting several Dacs.
Streaming is the way to go for me and I am more than happy with standard Spotify playback. In the same way as Vinyl and CD some tracks sound amazing, some crap. Sometimes I want fidelity and subtlety with delicate female vocals and others I want the music to anihilate me into submission with 35hz to 18000kHz with The KLF or similar. Great init.
Not for me it doesn't, my system sounds the same regardless of my temprement. What my temperement does do is dictate what I choose to play. Fortunately I have wide ranging tastes in music. If I'm in really bad mood I just don't listen to music.
hifinutt
16-09-2023, 16:13
very nice write up , been watching a lovely new usher 1.5 languish at the dealers for months now . cant understand why no one buys it
2100 seems a good bargain !
https://2ndhandhifi.co.uk/product/usher-r1-5-stereo-power-amplifier-2/
Enossification
17-09-2023, 09:37
With regard to sounding good or bad and variations of, I have always found that my system sounds best in the depths of winter when the curtains are drawn and there is no light. That huge vinyl soundstage is even more huge. Love it.
Enossification
17-09-2023, 09:38
very nice write up , been watching a lovely new usher 1.5 languish at the dealers for months now . cant understand why no one buys it
2100 seems a good bargain !
https://2ndhandhifi.co.uk/product/usher-r1-5-stereo-power-amplifier-2/
Yes Phil I have noticed one for sale. Maybe it's not selling due to the ridiculous amount of energy it consumes ?
Enossification
17-09-2023, 09:40
If I'm in really bad mood I just don't listen to music.
Me too. A bit like hitting the whisky maybe, not a good idea.
Yes Phil I have noticed one for sale. Maybe it's not selling due to the ridiculous amount of energy it consumes ?
It's only 175 watts at idle and 720 at maximum output which no-one is ever going to get close to in the real world.
Just don't leave it switched on when not in use!
Good amplifier, you have good taste in equipment (i.e it matches mine ;) )
Enossification
17-09-2023, 10:22
you have good taste in equipment (i.e it matches mine ;) )
:youtheman:
My experience since has told me that a budget CD player will sound better than a budget turntable, but as you upgrade your vinyl rig you reach a point where it becomes a serious competitor to CD and from there it can kick on to become either better than or at least different in a fulfilling way.
Pete
Dont forget that you can also upgrade the CD player, for instance with a separate DAC, then it will pull away again from the vinyl.
Enossification
20-09-2023, 14:55
I did use a Cambridge transport and Audiolab MDAC but this unit is now way better than the old ones. This one is also SACD of course and I own quite a few of those.
Enossification
20-09-2023, 15:03
or at least different in a fulfilling way. Pete
Certainly different.
Pigmy Pony
20-09-2023, 15:31
Certainly different.
But as long as they are close enough to both be enjoyable that's the main thing.
I find myself happily using either format - vinyl about 40% of the time, and CD when I'm feeling lazy/pissed/whatever which makes up the remaining 60%. I do actually prefer the sound of my vinyl rig, but at fifteen times the cost of the CD player I bloody well should do. And that's before you factor in the cost of stylus wear and vinyl purchases.
I wouldn't mind changing the player at some point, and yours and Martin's players would be top of my list, but I'm in no great rush :)
Enossification
21-09-2023, 06:34
But as long as they are close enough to both be enjoyable that's the main thing.
I find myself happily using either format - vinyl about 40% of the time, and CD when I'm feeling lazy/pissed/whatever which makes up the remaining 60%. I do actually prefer the sound of my vinyl rig, but at fifteen times the cost of the CD player I bloody well should do. And that's before you factor in the cost of stylus wear and vinyl purchases.
I wouldn't mind changing the player at some point, and yours and Martin's players would be top of my list, but I'm in no great rush :)
I so agree with all you've said there but one question that sticks with me is, why does the vinyl side of things have to be so damn expensive when compared to CD ? And, as a result of that, is there any wonder the majority of people stick with a digital source ?
Pigmy Pony
21-09-2023, 07:02
I so agree with all you've said there but one question that sticks with me is, why does the vinyl side of things have to be so damn expensive when compared to CD ? And, as a result of that, is there any wonder the majority of people stick with a digital source ?
No wonder at all Martin. Although vinyl prices have probably only increased over the years roughly in line with inflation (My first album, T. Rex Electric Warrior cost me £2.30 iirc, which would be about £30 in today's money), it's the lower cost of CDs that makes it look bad.
Regarding the hardware, well you can see better with a turntable where much of the cost has gone, that engineering won't come cheap.
My only real gripe is the quality of the vinyl itself, which with modern pressings is unpredictable at best. And that will probably put an end to my record purchasing. Especially when a used CD version can be had for a tenth the cost, and with zero issues pretty much guaranteed.
As for streaming, not going to happen as long as I can make the journey between my sofa and the stereo :)
No wonder at all Martin. Although vinyl prices have probably only increased over the years roughly in line with inflation (My first album, T. Rex Electric Warrior cost me £2.30 iirc, which would be about £30 in today's money), it's the lower cost of CDs that makes it look bad.
Regarding the hardware, well you can see better with a turntable where much of the cost has gone, that engineering won't come cheap.
My only real gripe is the quality of the vinyl itself, which with modern pressings is unpredictable at best. And that will probably put an end to my record purchasing. Especially when a used CD version can be had for a tenth the cost, and with zero issues pretty much guaranteed.
As for streaming, not going to happen as long as I can make the journey between my sofa and the stereo :)
That small journey may keep you spinning discs longer.:)
Enossification
21-09-2023, 11:32
As for streaming, not going to happen as long as I can make the journey between my sofa and the stereo :)
:thumbsup:
Pigmy Pony
21-09-2023, 16:53
No wonder at all Martin.
My apologies Dave, er Rodney, er Shaun :doh:
New bloke at the builders merchants used to call me Stuart. It went on for so long I didn't have the heart to correct him as he was what they used to call "Care in the Community" and I didn't want to mess with his head. So I became Stuart. No biggie, I've been called worse.
My apologies Dave, er Rodney, er Shaun :doh:
New bloke at the builders merchants used to call me Stuart. It went on for so long I didn't have the heart to correct him as he was what they used to call "Care in the Community" and I didn't want to mess with his head. So I became Stuart. No biggie, I've been called worse.
when I worked in the warehouse almost everyone had a nickname, if you looked like someone then that would be your name. So we had Graham Taylor, Prince Charles, Barney Rubble and so on.
I had long hair and those round specs so I was John Lennon. Over time that got abbreviated down to John. New people would call me that thinking it was my real name. Never bothered to correct them; I mean it doesn't really matter does it?
On the subject of cost, if CD prices had kept pace with inflation a new release CD now should be £39 - which is staggering really. Mostly they are £9.99 or less.
Enossification
21-09-2023, 17:45
My apologies Dave, er Rodney, er Shaun :doh:
New bloke at the builders merchants used to call me Stuart. It went on for so long I didn't have the heart to correct him as he was what they used to call "Care in the Community" and I didn't want to mess with his head. So I became Stuart. No biggie, I've been called worse.
:eyebrows: Nothing wrong with Martin. I am often called a lot worse. I don't mind :thumbsup:
Enossification
21-09-2023, 17:47
On the subject of cost, if CD prices had kept pace with inflation a new release CD now should be £39 - which is staggering really. Mostly they are £9.99 or less.
Wow ! Amazing. I had no idea.
hifi_dave
21-09-2023, 19:19
My latest acquisition is a ZZ Top CD, to my door at £4.49. I believe they were £15 or so back in the 80s.
My latest acquisition is a ZZ Top CD, to my door at £4.49. I believe they were £15 or so back in the 80s.
I was queuing in WH Smith, 1987, to buy 'A Momentary Lapse Of Reason' on vinyl at £5.99 and next to me was the new releases CD rack where it was £12.99
Remember thinking that it must only be doctors, dentists or stock market yuppies who could be buying them at that price,
Have to say if they were £39 each today I would not be paying it.
On the other hand I wouldn't pay £30 (let alone £39) for a new LP these days!
Pigmy Pony
22-09-2023, 07:09
I don't remember the last time I bought a new LP with my own money. All of them have been birthday or Christmas presents. Just the odd secondhand ones, described as 'excellent' or 'NM'. Even these come in at around £15-20.
I think my "Kallax" storage with 8 pigeonholes will probably take about 600 LPs, and I'm near to starting the last bit. And the wall shelves I made for the CDs have capacity for about 700. So not a big collection, but I don't need it to be any bigger.
Soon it will be a case of one in, one out. There are a lot of titles which come under the "What was I thinking?" category, so I'll be ok for a while. I just need to be a bit more discerning/ruthless.
£15 - £20? You're shopping in the wrong place!
Pigmy Pony
22-09-2023, 16:48
£15 - £20? You're shopping in the wrong place!
Well I suppose charity shops would be the right place if they ever had anything I wanted, which they never do. Or car boot sales might be the right place if you want something that looks like a skip rescue for a couple of quid. Occasionally I find something there worth having for a fiver or so, but that is increasingly infrequent.
Which really just leaves Ebay. Where I might search for Alice Cooper's "Love it to Death" or Stranglers' "Black & White" (ideally an early press with the 7" "Walk on By" included). For those, £15-20 comes nowhere near.
There are a couple of Steely Dan LPs which I might expect to pay that kind of money for. I just need to find someone who can't decide whether or not they like The Dan - can you think of anyone? :D
Well I suppose charity shops would be the right place if they ever had anything I wanted, which they never do. Or car boot sales might be the right place if you want something that looks like a skip rescue for a couple of quid. Occasionally I find something there worth having for a fiver or so, but that is increasingly infrequent.
Which really just leaves Ebay. Where I might search for Alice Cooper's "Love it to Death" or Stranglers' "Black & White" (ideally an early press with the 7" "Walk on By" included). For those, £15-20 comes nowhere near.
There are a couple of Steely Dan LPs which I might expect to pay that kind of money for. I just need to find someone who can't decide whether or not they like The Dan - can you think of anyone? :D
Next time you're down here we'll go to Rubber Soul, he doesn't charge those sort of prices unless it's a rarity and his stock is vast - just totally disorganized.
I have Dan LPs you can have, I replaced them all with the CDs.
True they are bought from charity shops and at boot sales, but the important difference is that they are, by and large, classical music. I always thoroughly inspect the LPs, and unless immaculate will pass over: the condition of the outer sleeve is a good indicator.
Most of them cost me £2 - 3, £5 at the most.
Apropos Steely Dan - well I'm still going through a "love hate" phase, so I may think of getting rid of some of them.
Classical LP almost always a lot cheaper used than popular music LP though. Just a much smaller market for them.
Suits me, but what I do buy is recordings on well known labels: DGG, Decca, EMI etc., and by well known and respected performers.
That said, I do see more 'popular' LPs for sale at reasonable prices: such as folk music - but I already own them.
well you can't give folk music away...
well you can't give folk music away...
well uk folk anyway.. much american folk is quite prized
I like both. :)
I don't mind a bit of folk rock but you can forget all that Lonnie Donegan 'Where's Me Washboard' stuff.
Rather listen to country & western than that.
Pigmy Pony
22-09-2023, 18:21
True they are bought from charity shops and at boot sales, but the important difference is that they are, by and large, classical music. I always thoroughly inspect the LPs, and unless immaculate will pass over: the condition of the outer sleeve is a good indicator.
Most of them cost me £2 - 3, £5 at the most.
Apropos Steely Dan - well I'm still going through a "love hate" phase, so I may think of getting rid of some of them.
It will always be easier to get NM vinyl of classical music - they tend to come from better homes with older music lovers who actually take care of their stuff, and don't play them to death while rolling joints on the album sleeves.
Pigmy Pony
22-09-2023, 18:29
Next time you're down here we'll go to Rubber Soul, he doesn't charge those sort of prices unless it's a rarity and his stock is vast - just totally disorganized.
I have Dan LPs you can have, I replaced them all with the CDs.
Don't be giving away your retirement fund, you're too generous for your own good :) But cheers anyway mate. I was thinking of coming over in the next couple of weeks if you're about - you've mentioned that record shop before, and it does sound worth a visit.
Edit: just realised you will have meant sell not give :doh: So that's ok, we can work something out.
I don't mind a bit of folk rock but you can forget all that Lonnie Donegan 'Where's Me Washboard' stuff.
Rather listen to country & western than that.
thats skiffle... was basically a british link between usa folk, blues, jazz and rock that was super popular in the day and many top players started there.
Don't be giving away your retirement fund, you're too generous for your own good :) But cheers anyway mate. I was thinking of coming over in the next couple of weeks if you're about - you've mentioned that record shop before, and it does sound worth a visit.
Edit: just realised you will have meant sell not give :doh: So that's ok, we can work something out.
will send you a PM
Pigmy Pony
22-09-2023, 19:01
thats skiffle... was basically a british link between usa folk, blues, jazz and rock that was super popular in the day and many top players started there.
Like Jimmy Page.
thats skiffle... was basically a british link between usa folk, blues, jazz and rock that was super popular in the day and many top players started there.
same basic idea but then I think proper music started with Jimi Hendrix and mostly finished not long after. :D
Enossification
22-09-2023, 19:30
Skiffle ? Thought that was a pub game.
It started with the Yardbirds and with the Animals.
My introduction to the blues was thanks to John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers.
Pete The Cat
24-09-2023, 10:40
Funny thing is when I was young vinyl was an everyman thing, it seemed most homes had a record player - even folks who weren't really into music. Today, apart from those of us who kept our record collections all the way though and built up playing systems over time, it seems like it's restricted to people with plenty of disposable income.
I wanted to buy the last Tool album and found the standard release in a shop labelled £54.99. Shove that! I get the economics of lower supply and demand but I can't forget that 1980's £3.99 new LP would equate to roughly £20 today.
Everything seems to be a so-called limited edition, merely offering more coloured cardboard and multi-coloured vinyl with surface noise.
The output of RSD is coloured vinyl re-releases for flippers to profiteer on eBay. Discogs lists a gazillion albums with asking prices over £50 and personally I'd feel dirty if I sold certain LPs that I bought for £10 in the '90s for their apparent present day market value of £250. And I've not seen a worthwhile charity shop find in years.
I love records and there are good things about the vinyl revival, but not all this.
My daughter asked for a turntable last Christmas, like many of her friends. Tough love - I got her a Denon CD etc player and 5 CDs to get started, since there's no point having a turntable and just one lonely LP gathering dust. She now picks CDs up with loose change and has a decent collection building.
All reasons why it's worth keeping a CD collection going at the same time.
Pete
Pigmy Pony
24-09-2023, 21:53
[QUOTE=Pete The Cat;1359081
My daughter asked for a turntable last Christmas, like many of her friends. Tough love - I got her a Denon CD etc player and 5 CDs to get started, since there's no point having a turntable and just one lonely LP gathering dust. She now picks CDs up with loose change and has a decent collection building.
Pete[/QUOTE]
Quality parenting :)
You'd have to be mad or seriously wealthy to be starting a vinyl collection from scratch the way things are with prices. CD definitely the way to go.
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