How loud?

[walpurgis]

Going on from a point I made in the Tannoy Berkeley thread.

How many of us listen to our systems at realistic levels? Or even have systems capable? Very few I reckon.

Concert hall or band performance sound levels are hard to achieve in a domestic situation and do we even want that?

The only time I had that kind of loudness was when I owned some 102db/watt horn speakers and I generally had those at sane(ish:)) level.

[Lawrence001]

I think my speakers are capable of realistic SPLs but my room is too small to allow, any attempt to do so would just result in a cacophony of reflected sound.

If I took them to a hall and played them loud while at a distance I think they would work well.

[Lawrence001]

I also think the concept of realistic levels is a false one with amplified music, the amplification will (or should) be set at a level appropriate to the venue. The music has been way too loud at every rock gig I've been to (although I wouldn't have said that when I was younger) so if that's what we mean when we say realistic levels then we really mean hearing damaging levels!

Even with unamplified music it applies to some extent, the LSO would not squeeze into my room and play Wagner at full belt. (My room could handle a string quartet or maybe a few more if I sat at the other end.)

If they play a small venue they will be at chamber orchestra size. The SPL they achieve is tuned to the venue by number of players. Or to think of it differently, they choose an appropriate venue to play a particular work.

So when we discuss realistic SPLs, don't we have to state at what venue and in what row we regard as being realistic?

[Macca]

Ideal playback level would be the level it was mastered at which is usually pretty high.

I don't often crank it up but had a few people here who like it at high levels - Marco for one.

If you want gig levels get a P.A system but that isn't what was intended when they made the recording. Plus permanent hearing damage will result if you keep it high enough for long enough.

[guy]

I also think the concept of realistic levels is a false one with amplified music, the amplification will (or should) be set at a level appropriate to the venue. The music has been way too loud at every rock gig I've been to (although I wouldn't have said that when I was younger) so if that's what we mean when we say realistic levels then we really mean hearing damaging levels!

Even with unamplified music it applies to some extent, the LSO would not squeeze into my room and play Wagner at full belt. (My room could handle a string quartet or maybe a few more if I sat at the other end.)

If they play a small venue they will be at chamber orchestra size. The SPL they achieve is tuned to the venue by number of players. Or to think of it differently, they choose an appropriate venue to play a particular work.

So when we discuss realistic SPLs, don't we have to state at what venue and in what row we regard as being realistic?

Even when i was younger i couldn’t take really loud concerts - Lemmy at Hitchin college back in the seventies, my ears were ringing/affected for a couple of days after. Not something i want at home :eek:

[Jimbo]

I listen at 65 -75 dB. I use a very good app on my phone to monitor sound levels.

[Macca]

around 70dB here although might get up to an 80 average level sometimes.

It seems a shame to have a system capable of good sound quality even at high levels and never use it. Like having a supercar and never driving over 35 mph.

I still listen to a lot of rock music and you can't do that justice at background level anyway. Might as well not bother at all.

[Barry]

I'm inclined to agree with Lawrence in that the volume level should be appropriate to the genre of music being played. Thus acoustic folk and unamplified jazz ensembles will be played at a lower level than say rock music or a large symphonic orchestra.

An orchestra playing fortissimo will achieve SPLs roughly 120dB above the threshold of hearing

The loudest level my speakers can achieve is just about 100dB. In my room that would be far too loud and uncomfortable to listen to, as well as vibrating the floorboards! Yet in a concert hall it would be loud but not painful.

I don't believe records should be played back at the level they were mastered at. Sound levels in the mastering suite are artificially high so that any faults in the recording can be heard and corrected.

But I agree with Martin that some people like to listen to music at a louder level than others. I have heard Marco's system on a number of occasions, and he plays it at a higher level than I would like; usually because to my ears his speakers were exciting room modes.

[Macca]

I don't believe records should be played back at the level they were mastered at. Sound levels in the mastering suite are artificially high so that any faults in the recording can be heard and corrected.
.

Nevertheless that is the level that the final product was made, so logically it is the optimal level for playback - assuming the system is capable enough.

At a lower level you risk masking quieter elements of the mix that you are supposed to hear.

In theory of course, in practice I rarely listen at that sort of level, I don't think many do in domestic situation.

[Jimbo]

I do sometimes hit 80-85dB but it starts to get a bit too much after this. I like to preserve my hearing as long as possible and find I can get a perfectly satisfactory sound level at much lower volume levels probably because my speakers are rather large and very efficient.

[Barry]

Nevertheless that is the level that the final product was made, so logically it is the optimal level for playback - assuming the system is capable enough.

At a lower level you risk masking quieter elements of the mix that you are supposed to hear.


Sorry, I don't agree.

The BBC monitor their broadcasts at a much higher level than they are intended to be heard, precisely to detect faults.

[Pigmy Pony]

I listen at 65 -75 dB. I use a very good app on my phone to monitor sound levels.

I have no idea what levels I listen at normally, but I don't think it's particularly loud. What's your phone app called James? I'll try it on my phone and then I'll know.

[Lawrence001]

I listen at 65 -75 dB. I use a very good app on my phone to monitor sound levels.I'd be nterested to know if the app calibrates the mic to get it right.

[Macca]

Sorry, I don't agree.

The BBC monitor their broadcasts at a much higher level than they are intended to be heard, precisely to detect faults.

Monitoring a broadcast is not the same as mastering a recording though.

[Jimbo]

I have no idea what levels I listen at normally, but I don't think it's particularly loud. What's your phone app called James? I'll try it on my phone and then I'll know.

Here you go Steve.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/noise/app.html

[Pigmy Pony]

Here you go Steve.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/noise/app.html

:doh: Bugger! This app is only available for iOS devices. Shame really, the app looks proper. Oh well, thanks anyway James. I'll just have to stick with my old levels monitoring method: keep increasing the volume until the cat leaves the room, then I know it's about right :)

[Jimbo]

:doh: Bugger! This app is only available for iOS devices. Shame really, the app looks proper. Oh well, thanks anyway James. I'll just have to stick with my old levels monitoring method: keep increasing the volume until the cat leaves the room, then I know it's about right :)

I originally downloaded it to monitor the dB of my Fridge/freezer as it was meant to be a low noise product 35dB. Most of the time it is is near this level which is good when you are sitting in a kitchen /diner all day!

The app is obviously also great for monitoring the HIFI dB and works very well indeed giving real time instantaneous readings. Very useful and at times suprising when you are listening to music you think is loud but actually measures lower.

Sorry you can't download it. Just buy yourself an iPhone !:lol:

[walpurgis]

I'd be nterested to know if the app calibrates the mic to get it right.

Not sure how that would work. To calibrate, the mic would need a reference and it can't take one if it's not calibrated :scratch:.

[Pigmy Pony]

Not sure how that would work. To calibrate, the mic would need a reference and it can't take one if it's not calibrated :scratch:.

The app James linked to earlier has the capability to be calibrated to the internal or an external microphone (don't ask me how), and is only available for iOS devices as they (NIOSH) have found that the Android device marketplace is fragmented among many different manufacturers with different requirements and specifications for microphones (their words). Looks like a decent and fairly reliable app (accurate to + or - 2dBA).

Maybe the only really accurate and reliable way for Android users is to get a proper sound level meter with microphone, and I'm not desperate enough for the infomation to bother with that.

[Mikeandvan]

'Neighbours, everybody needs good neighbours'.

[AJSki2fly]

around 70dB here although might get up to an 80 average level sometimes.

It seems a shame to have a system capable of good sound quality even at high levels and never use it. Like having a supercar and never driving over 35 mph.

I still listen to a lot of rock music and you can't do that justice at background level anyway. Might as well not bother at all.

Snap, I try to keep to 75dB or below, although the odd album that I think sounds better with a bit of wellie I turn up, but generally its 70-75dB average.

[Firebottle]

Steve you could try Sound Meter on the android.

[Pigmy Pony]

Thanks Alan - got it now :) Looks exactly like this

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.gAnRicMb1Cvbbdpi5YkiywAAAA?w=183&h=340&c=7&r=0&o=5&pid=1.7

Just got the telly on at the moment and Sound Meter app is showing an average 54, max 65dB.
I'll try it with some music later when my SPL limiter (Anita) is out of the room.

[Pigmy Pony]

Hard to tell how accurate these apps can be, for reasons already mentioned. The sensitivity of the microphone on my phone (Huwawei) will almost certainly differ to that on say a Google phone, Samsung, Sony etc. But perhaps good enough to give you a rough idea of SPLs.

[struth]

Thanks Alan - got it now :) Looks exactly like this

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.gAnRicMb1Cvbbdpi5YkiywAAAA?w=183&h=340&c=7&r=0&o=5&pid=1.7

Just got the telly on at the moment and Sound Meter app is showing an average 54, max 65dB.
I'll try it with some music later when my SPL limiter (Anita) is out of the room.

58 and 72 here with tv... so pretty similar.mine a bit louder but its a loudish film

[Pigmy Pony]

Right well, Mrs. P's just nipped to the shops, so I gave it a go. CD I chose was 'Touch' by Yello, because it gives a lot of well, everything. My normal listening level showed 69/74.

So then I cranked it up to the max I ever go to. This was 11 o'clock position on a 250wpc amp into 100dB sensitive speakers. The readings surprised me - 79/83. And at that level my sofa was doubling as a very nice massage chair!

I turned everything off, and I was getting around 24dB. And a loud clap of my hands (jeez that hurt) made a peak of 84. I even got it into the 50s with a fart from 1 metre. I wonder which frequencies show the loudest? Looks like it might be the higher frequencies. Because the seismic bass of that Yello track was beaten by a single handclap.

[Jimbo]

Probably reads the higher frequencies first as they travel the fastest?

[Macca]

A very quiet room would be around 30db so you can probably add 5 to 10 dB to get the real level

My room shows 20dB on the phone app with nothing making any sound and me holding my breath, but I don't really think it is that quiet.

[Jimbo]

A very quiet room would be around 30db so you can probably add 5 to 10 dB to get the real level

My room shows 20dB on the phone app with nothing making any sound and me holding my breath, but I don't really think it is that quiet.

I bet you can hear the neighbours breathing at that volume?:lol:

[Macca]

I bet you can hear the neighbours breathing at that volume?:lol:

I can hear his clock chiming - when he's remembered to wind it.

I'm lucky, I never get any noise from the neighbours. He will ask me sometimes if the noise disturbs me. I have no idea if he is in or out, meanwhile I've been blasting Zeppelin out of big floorstanders.

Thinking I might get me twin 18'' subs with 2000 watt amps built in. See if I can get the people 2 doors down to complain.

[Jimbo]

I can hear his clock chiming - when he's remembered to wind it.

I'm lucky, I never get any noise from the neighbours. He will ask me sometimes if the noise disturbs me. I have no idea if he is in or out, meanwhile I've been blasting Zeppelin out of big floorstanders.

Thinking I might get me twin 18'' subs with 2000 watt amps built in. See if I can get the people 2 doors down to complain.

Nice one.:)

[Swann36]

Here you go Steve.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/noise/app.html

I use the same and find it comforting in that some albums seem really loud to me but show mid 70s to 80 most of my listening is probably around the 70 mark

[Barry]

This is an interesting thread. The only time I have played with a (very cheap) sound level meter was well over 10 years ago.

Since I did not know the directivity of the SPL meter, I placed it at my listening position (4.2m from the plane of the speakers) and at ear hight when sitting down (0.75m). At the time I was using a Quad 44 preamp, which uses a stepped attenuator as a volume control feeding a Quad 405-2 power amplifier, limited to a maximum of 50W output (= +17dBW).

The following figures were obtained:

(A) Speech (such as radio plays, and poetry recordings): 55 - 60dB(A)

(B) Late night listening (of all music genres), with volume setting "6" (= -33dB): 60 - 70dB(A)

(C) 'Belting it out' (again of all music genres, but in practice too loud for me), with a volume setting "10" (= -24dB): 70 - 80dB(A)

(D) Shaking the floorboards (as above and way too loud for me), with a volume setting of "14" (= -12dB): ~85 - 90dB(A).

The speakers have a sensitivity of 82dB(A) SPL at 1 metre for an input power of 1W.

On the face of it, these numbers do not stack up, measured versus calculated, but we have to take into account the increased distance between source and meter position. If we do this, and it's only an approximation, we get the revised figures:

(A) 60dB(A)

(B) 69.5dB(A)

(C) 78.5dB(A)

(D) 90.5dB(A)

These are surprisingly close to the upper end of the measurement range for each situation. In fact it is probably more of a concidence as a cheap (< £50) Class 2 SPL meter is only expected to have an accuracy of +/-2dB at best. You have to pay around £500, or more to achieve an accuracy of +/-1dB, which make claims by some that a smartphone app have an accuracy of 0.2dB a nonsense. At best they will only give you a rough indication of SPL.


So after all this preamble, my typical listening level (dependant on genre) would appear to be 65 - 70dB(A).


Martin suggested the appropriate playback level should be that at which the recording was mastered. I have done a little research into this and results vary depening on the preference of the mastering engineer. Most chose a level of > 70 - 80dB, and some like to master at 90 -95dB!
To some extent it depends on the size of the mastering suite, but those that choose a high SPL say it is to compensate for the Fletcher-Munson curve (or whatever is currently in vogue), so they can balance the bass notes. Whatever the reason, regularly subjecting one's ears to a couple of hours at SPLs of 95dB won't do your hearing any good at all! Maybe that is why I find the great majority, but not all, of remasters pretty poor and no improvement over the original.

[Jimbo]

I listen at around 65-75dB and occasionally 80 dB but comfortable listening in my room is below 75dB so that would be close to your listening level Barry.

[Pigmy Pony]

I wondered how SPLs of a live performance might look, so as i had my phone at yesterday's Toyah gig I tried out this app. The reading surprised me, peaking at 82dB. That's one less than I got at home. I was stood about 30 metres from the stage, and that might have made a bit of difference. I also tried it with one of the support acts, and the reading was almost identical.

Maybe Health & Safety stick their beaks in these days and put a limit on the SPLs, for everybody's benefit, and also any neighbours who might complain and make getting a licence for next year tougher.

[Macca]

I wondered how SPLs of a live performance might look, so as i had my phone at yesterday's Toyah gig I tried out this app. The reading surprised me, peaking at 82dB. That's one less than I got at home. I was stood about 30 metres from the stage, and that might have made a bit of difference. I also tried it with one of the support acts, and the reading was almost identical.

Maybe Health & Safety stick their beaks in these days and put a limit on the SPLs, for everybody's benefit, and also any neighbours who might complain and make getting a licence for next year tougher.

Maybe so but at this point in time - it's a mystery...

[Barry]

I wondered how SPLs of a live performance might look, so as i had my phone at yesterday's Toyah gig I tried out this app. The reading surprised me, peaking at 82dB. That's one less than I got at home. I was stood about 30 metres from the stage, and that might have made a bit of difference. I also tried it with one of the support acts, and the reading was almost identical.


30m would make a considerable difference to the SPL reading, especially if you were behind a large audience.

[Pigmy Pony]

30m would make a considerable difference to the SPL reading, especially if you were behind a large audience.

I'll get down the front next time, and see what happens. I might have done this time, but I didn't fancy running the gauntlet of shirtless sweaty bodies, some of them men. And my interest in the experiment was short lived, apathy quickly took over.

Though I suspect this phone app may be under-reading.

[Pigmy Pony]

Maybe so but at this point in time - it's a mystery...

:D I was going to segue into that at some point, damn you. "Thunder in the Mountains" was more like Fart in the Valley, which makes me wonder if there is a move towards safer SPLs at live shows.

[Macca]

if it is under-reading and I reckon mine is that would be about 90dB where you were stood - sounds about right.

When I went to see Oasis at Maine Road Liam complained that they'd been told to turn it down after the first number but I suppose that could be due to some local rule as there's houses all round about.

[struth]

I wondered how SPLs of a live performance might look, so as i had my phone at yesterday's Toyah gig I tried out this app. The reading surprised me, peaking at 82dB. That's one less than I got at home. I was stood about 30 metres from the stage, and that might have made a bit of difference. I also tried it with one of the support acts, and the reading was almost identical.

Maybe Health & Safety stick their beaks in these days and put a limit on the SPLs, for everybody's benefit, and also any neighbours who might complain and make getting a licence for next year tougher.

yup im betting its well under. that level is lawnmower level

[Jimbo]

I wondered how SPLs of a live performance might look, so as i had my phone at yesterday's Toyah gig I tried out this app. The reading surprised me, peaking at 82dB. That's one less than I got at home. I was stood about 30 metres from the stage, and that might have made a bit of difference. I also tried it with one of the support acts, and the reading was almost identical.

Maybe Health & Safety stick their beaks in these days and put a limit on the SPLs, for everybody's benefit, and also any neighbours who might complain and make getting a licence for next year tougher.

Think they limit Gigs to 90dB max nowadays -Health and safety!

[struth]

Unlike workers, there is no specific legislation setting noise limits for the audience exposure to noise. However, HSE strongly recommends that the A-weighted equivalent continuous sound level over the duration of the event (Event LAeq) in any part of the audience area should not exceed 107 dB, and the C-weighted peak sound pressure level should not exceed 140 dB.


https://www.hse.gov.uk/event-safety/noise.htm