View Full Version : Is this BS ?
Would this really improve the sound quality of an already excellent amp .
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IMO - not unless one or more of the components replaced was out of tolerance or unfit for purpose.
I've never seen any evidence otherwise, let's put it that way.
It's an opinion shared by many. Likewise there are some that believe replacing all wiring and connectors for those of better quality (usually made of silver) is worthwhile.
In theory such substations can bring about improvements in sound quality, but it is down to the user to decide if the amount of improvement justifies the not insubstantial cost.
so, maybes aye, maybes naw;)
I can’t see why Pathos would fit cheap inferior components when everything else is handmade in house at huge expense so I’m going with BS .
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walpurgis
06-08-2023, 09:14
You'd need two amps to 'prove' anything, one unmodified and one with the alterations. Only by a side by side listening comparison in the same setup could you be more sure of any benefits (deficiencies?)
Pigmy Pony
06-08-2023, 09:18
I bet Pathos read that article and thought "Shit, if only we'd put better capacitors in, we'd have built one of the best amps in the world". :doh:
I doubt they would put all that effort into making such a thing of beauty, then go cheap with a couple of bits, so I would also say BS. Surely if it measures right it has to be right?
I agree, and mine has the newer upgraded preamp board with the exact same components.
Where did the article in your OP come from? There are dozens of enthusiasts around the world who write items like that. We even have some here on AoS.
Where did the article in your OP come from? There are dozens of enthusiasts around the world who write items like that. We even have some here on AoS.
Audiogon
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anyone-know-anything-about-the-pathos-tt
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I also found this …
Recently had the stock input, coupling and psu capacitors in my Pathos TT RR replaced with higher end caps (Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil, Clarity, and Blackgate). Nick Dolshi did the work. As good an amp as the stock TT was for my small listening room, the capacitor upgrades take it to another level entirely. The things that the TT was known for - timbral accuracy, SET immediacy, transparency, etc. have been enhanced, and now there is more speed, greater bass heft, more apparent volume, improved soundstaging - I could go on. I am blown away.
One thing that surprised me - before talking with Nick - I had emailed Pathos to ask if they had experimented with capacitors. I expected them to respond that they didn't recommend tinkering with their product. Instead they told me which capacitors to upgrade in order to realize an improvement in sound quality, based on their experiments. I've found the factory to be responsive and willing to take the time to answer non-traditional questions. One other thing of interest for TT owners and potential owners. In response to questions about loudspeaker impedence I was told by Lucia Pathos himself that the oft repeated concern about using the TT with (nominally) 4 ohm speakers has little basis in fact or experience. He said that in the factory listening room they use the TT with Quad electrostatics which have an impedence that dips to 1 ohm, and have no sound degredation or other problems.
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It's an opinion shared by many. Likewise there are some that believe replacing all wiring and connectors for those of better quality (usually made of silver) is worthwhile.
In theory such substations can bring about improvements in sound quality, but it is down to the user to decide if the amount of improvement justifies the not insubstantial cost.
Isn't it the other way round? In theory they make no difference, in practice some say they do?
Like Geoff says you need a side by side comparison, ideally with some controls. The usual way this sort of 'pimping' works is you send the unit off to some bloke in a shed, he works his magic, and then a few weeks later you get it back.
After that amount of time elapsed it doesn't seem reasonable to me to be certain that you can hear improvements but some people seem to be certain they can.
Isn't it the other way round? In theory they make no difference, in practice some say they do?
Like Geoff says you need a side by side comparison, ideally with some controls. The usual way this sort of 'pimping' works is you send the unit off to some bloke in a shed, he works his magic, and then a few weeks later you get it back.
After that amount of time elapsed it doesn't seem reasonable to me to be certain that you can hear improvements but some people seem to be certain they can.
Spot on .
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If the replacement capacitors use a dielectric having a lower loss then it is quite possible audible improvements might result.
However, those that believe replacing all wiring with uninsulated silver wire because silver has a lower resistivity than copper, so theoretically reducing conductor losses are misguided in thinking the results will be at all audible.
AJSki2fly
06-08-2023, 10:13
Not being an electronics engineer I have always wondered if substituting what might be considered better components in a circuit for the original could in fact impact the original design for the worse.
So for example if a circuit was designed allowing components to have large tolerance levels, would constraining them into smaller tolerances have an impact on the circuit design and the resulting output? I ask because it seems it is always assumed that replacing components which are higher spec will improve matters.
A simple analogy would be taking a good old Ford Escort 1100, and swapping the engine to a 1600(as we often did in the 70's), the result being it will go quicker but actually won't handle any better because the brakes and suspension are still that same, and the gearbox may fail due to it not being design for the higher power, so the performance upgrade will be wasted to an extent, and in fact could become dangerous.
Replacing all the resistors having a tolerance of 5% with ones having a tolerance of 0.1% won't make much difference, if at all, but will cost a great deal to implement.
narabdela
06-08-2023, 10:21
That eejit Danny (GR Research) on YouTube sells expensive speaker 'upgrades' because he preaches that even high-end speaker manufacturers use cheap components in their internal wiring and crossovers.
The speaker manufacturers argue that what they use is fit for purpose, and that charging more for more expensive components offers no improvement in sound quality or longevity.
Sounds like a similar situation.
I got sucked into the "upgrade phenomenon" somewhere between the 80s and 90s and although I always thought that it was an improvement there is the expectation bias with all these things....if they say it sounds better it does! If it does not harm it is only your wallet that suffers. I wouldn't even contemplate messing about like that now and haven't for years.
back when I used to build speakers I experimented with different capacitors in the crossovers. Different brands made no difference, different values made pretty obvious differences....
I am wondering also about how long ago some of the works Andy links to were done. My understanding is that, for example, Black Gate capacitors have not been made in years.
Yes, you can still buy them new but they are fakes. I don't know where these people sourced from, but certainly possible that they are not even using what they think they are using but just copies from China.
The whole pimping thing is so fraught with issues I would never get into it. Just buy equipment that works properly out of the box!
So to conclude, it is largely BS; but that won't stop people from trying to 'improve' perfectly well designed and built gear.
The best advice is that of Martin: "Just buy equipment that works properly out of the box".
Firebottle
06-08-2023, 19:06
There are better quality capacitors to be had, plus different dielectrics do change the sound.
However just choosing a 'better' capacitor doesn't necessarily improve matters as circuit conditions, voltage and circuit impedances particularly, have an effect.
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