View Full Version : How do you know when it is good enough.
Following on from the thread about what some consider the pushing of over priced components. How do you know when what you are listening to is good enough?
We all have different views on how our music should sound so one size does not fit all. On a daily basis our ears tell us on one day that it is right and other days something is a bit off. It could be the case that the off days become more than the right days and this is when the swapping of bits starts or continues.
If you have bought several amps and other components, cables etc over the years and held on to them it is easy to swap bits in and out to change the flavour or seek to right the "offs".
What really gets me is when I faff around changing this or that and listening intently which could take many hours and find myself mostly going back to how it was when I started!
I then swear at myself, get a beer and listen to some lovely music:lol:
Following on from the thread about what some consider the pushing of over priced components. How do you know when what you are listening to is good enough?
We all have different views on how our music should sound so one size does not fit all. On a daily basis our ears tell us on one day that it is right and other days something is a bit off. …………………
I then swear at myself, get a beer and listen to some lovely music:lol:
Sounds about right :cool:
Pigmy Pony
01-08-2023, 14:34
At some point we decide we can't or won't throw any more money at it, and convince ourselves it's good enough.
Often hearing systems better than mine spurred me on but now I don't tend to hear anything that's a big enough improvement that it makes me dissatisfied.
Also I got bored with the whole swapping and 'listening for differences thing. Everything I put on sounds good, so I just leave it alone.
I suppose it's been that way for three or four years now.
When I went to Hifi Shows in the 80s and 90s there was only one or two set ups that I thought sounded really good. Mostly I would come home and think what i've got sounds good enough to me and sometimes better than the stuff being used at the shows. A stand out set up was using the Kef big floor standers with the 2 internal bass units linked with a piston (can't remember the number...104..something?) playing a vinyl version of Donald Fagen's Nightfly. The speakers were in the middle of the floor of a very large room and the sound was amazing. Worst was at WTF Live (What Hifi show at Earls Court) Their system was in a large wooden cabin with a whole Audiolab system and Monitor Floorstanders. They thought that playing America What Time Is Love - KLF at full volume a good idea. Geez...after about a minute they had mostly cleared the room.
I think when you get to a point where you can listen and enjoy the music and not distracted by the sound of your system. If you are listening intently to details and other aspects of sound then you may not be focussed on the music which could indicate something is wrong.
BUT it all depends on how your brain processing works. My system lets me relax and put any type of music on and enjoy it which should be the ultimate goal of any system? However if your brain starts to jump around and get distracted by certain aspects of the sound then your system may have problems.
Like Martin mentioned "everything I put on sounds good" . This has stopped me from messing and leave the system alone. I spoke to a friend recently who found himself going backward over old ground to a point where he was happy in the past. So often we think the grass is greener and move onto a new piece of equipment hoping to gain more when in reality you were probably happy before. This is worth remembering as it is something I have done. Always give yourself a route back to where you may have been satisfied.
Dont forget forums and the hifi industry inevitably make folk feel they need to try something new and that Nirvana is always round the bend with the next piece of shiny kit when in reality this is so often not the case but just an attempt to gain access to your wallet!:)
Always give yourself a route back to where you may have been satisfied.
Well, that hasn't happened much when I think that I will move the speakers slightly or angle them in a bit more. Despite having masking tape on the floor to mark where they were they never sound quite the same:doh:
Yes moving speaker even to a small degree can have quite a profound effect on the sound of your system.
I have been down this frustrating road many times too!:rolleyes:
Ironically the one upgrade I might do - get some JBL 4367 https://www.stereophile.com/content/jbl-4367-studio-monitor-loudspeaker I can't do as the nearest JBL dealer is in Paris.
Often hearing systems better than mine spurred me on but now I don't tend to hear anything that's a big enough improvement that it makes me dissatisfied.
....
I suppose it's been that way for three or four years now.
My thoughts exactly! I've heard very little at audio shows that has impressed me; and often the more expensive the gear the poorer are the demonstrations.
hifi_dave
01-08-2023, 20:16
I'd go with that. To my ears, often the megabuck systems just sound far too large and loud. They don't do the delicate, intimate things so well.
Pigmy Pony
01-08-2023, 21:57
I'd go with that. To my ears, often the megabuck systems just sound far too large and loud. They don't do the delicate, intimate things so well.
They're just far too much of everything for the average home. Like having a huge projection screen for watching Cash In The Attic.
I'd go with that. To my ears, often the megabuck systems just sound far too large and loud. They don't do the delicate, intimate things so well.
My thoughts exactly. Most average British homes have tiny rooms 12 x14 feet or 12 x 18 at best which are best suited to stand mount speakers and at a pinch small floorstanders, none of which require much amplification.
Anything else is difficult to control room acoustics etc so trying to squeeze in monster amps and huge speakers is usually a recipe for disaster.
Ironically the one upgrade I might do - get some JBL 4367 https://www.stereophile.com/content/jbl-4367-studio-monitor-loudspeaker I can't do as the nearest JBL dealer is in Paris.That's the best JBL IMHO and I have heard the entire range, many models quite a few times.
Surprising the more expensive models aren't better but they aren't to my ears by a margin.
They do pop up every now and then in the UK second hand or dealer ex demo.
Not cheap but they are decent speakers.
If I didn't have my custom built Apogees I would own a pair.
I have learnt that once you own a few amp options and a DAC with a triode output stage, that's enough, really.
What I mean is that a change is really beneficial to stop you getting bored or fed up. I have tried about 40 different amps on my speakers and the three I flip between are all top options.
Every week or so I will flip the triodes in my DAC.
Doing this keeps me constantly entertained without spending loads.
Let me qualify that. I have spent quite a bit but for a very long time I haven't spent anymore. Which is a good thing obviously.
Diying allows you to have tons of amps. I have been using 3 since I got back from hols on Friday....a whole week without a fix! My favourite of the recent amps built is an ACA Mini it is incredible for something with a max of 5w. You can have some second order harmonics infecting your sound or not....just remove the jumpers. I defo got the good enough badge with this one.
Diying allows you to have tons of amps. I have been using 3 since I got back from hols on Friday....a whole week without a fix! My favourite of the recent amps built is an ACA Mini it is incredible for something with a max of 5w. You can have some second order harmonics infecting your sound or not....just remove the jumpers. I defo got the good enough badge with this one.
read that as 'Dying allows you to have tons of amps'. lol
I have learnt that once you own a few amp options and a DAC with a triode output stage, that's enough, really.
What I mean is that a change is really beneficial to stop you getting bored or fed up. I have tried about 40 different amps on my speakers and the three I flip between are all top options.
Every week or so I will flip the triodes in my DAC.
Doing this keeps me constantly entertained without spending loads.
Let me qualify that. I have spent quite a bit but for a very long time I haven't spent anymore. Which is a good thing obviously.
I'm surprised you could find 40 amplifiers that could adequately drive your Apogees with their low impedance.
Whilst I have 12 amplifiers of various vintages and technology, I keep them largely as a back-up should either of the two I use at the moment fail.
I like to be entertained by listening to music, not by "flipping" between equipment.
I'm surprised you could find 40 amplifiers that could adequately drive your Apogees with their low impedance.
Whilst I have 12 amplifiers of various vintages and technology, I keep them largely as a back-up should either of the two I use at the moment fail.
I like to be entertained by listening to music, not by "flipping" between equipment.4 Ohms isn't too bad and it's fairly flat at that figure over the listening range.. I held a few bake offs years ago and have had a lot of people round hence the high number of amps tried.
Scintilla is the problem Apogee to drive.
Sure, I like to listen to music but flipping gear to hear different presentations makes it even more interesting I find.
The speakers are basically crazy and show up the smallest of changes.
That's the best JBL IMHO and I have heard the entire range, many models quite a few times.
Surprising the more expensive models aren't better but they aren't to my ears by a margin.
They do pop up every now and then in the UK second hand or dealer ex demo.
Not cheap but they are decent speakers.
If I didn't have my custom built Apogees I would own a pair.
How are you J?
Yeah they are the only thing that has really impressed me in the last few years. I was looking out for some to come up but gave up after about 6 months of nothing.
JBL really are a joke the way they sell their proper kit, it's like they're not bothered.
read that as 'Dying allows you to have tons of amps'. lol
Lol, Well as far as I know no-one who has passed the pearly gates has been able to report back that they have in fact reached hifi heaven:lol:
Lol, Well as far as I know no-one who has passed the pearly gates has been able to report back that they have in fact reached hifi heaven[emoji38]Yes, wandering in with his valve amp tucked under his arm lol
Pigmy Pony
02-08-2023, 19:35
Ironically the one upgrade I might do - get some JBL 4367 https://www.stereophile.com/content/jbl-4367-studio-monitor-loudspeaker I can't do as the nearest JBL dealer is in Paris.
This looks a good price for brand new. UK dealer too.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiNr7bJ2r6AAxWrVEEAHQ8jAy4QFnoECEIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.superfi.co.uk%2Fjbl-4367-2-way-floorstanding-speakers&usg=AOvVaw3k0oAjI8Ee6FzVNrzI455U&opi=89978449
I'll drink to that.
But what gets me itching for an upgrade is having a bit of spare cash! (needs more than a bit actually!)
This looks a good price for brand new. UK dealer too.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiNr7bJ2r6AAxWrVEEAHQ8jAy4QFnoECEIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.superfi.co.uk%2Fjbl-4367-2-way-floorstanding-speakers&usg=AOvVaw3k0oAjI8Ee6FzVNrzI455U&opi=89978449
cheers I'll chase them up but last time I saw some advertised they didn't actually have any.
https://i.imgur.com/QBffkRu.jpg
Eltax Monitor PWR 1959
I wonder what these sound like. 96dB and 15" Bass.....a proper speaker?
They claim 30Hz at -3dB. Probably in room rather than anechoic but still quite impressive for the price - if true.
Can't find them for sale anywhere though.
They claim 30Hz at -3dB. Probably in room rather than anechoic but still quite impressive for the price - if true.
Can't find them for sale anywhere though.
Richer Sounds did have some when they first came out but as a more specialist speaker and more pricey then their other stuff they probably didn't last very long.
Pigmy Pony
03-08-2023, 21:35
I'm sure my corner shop had Radio Bhangra or something playing through an Eltax speaker. Sounded dreadful. Maybe I misread the logo.
Colin2040
03-08-2023, 22:40
Aren’t elite audio JBL dealers in Scotland?
How are you J?
Yeah they are the only thing that has really impressed me in the last few years. I was looking out for some to come up but gave up after about 6 months of nothing.
JBL really are a joke the way they sell their proper kit, it's like they're not bothered.Fine, M!
Whenever I hear JBLs in demos it is almost always with Mark Levinson amps. I am not sure I really like any other JBL speaker including the Everest which seems to have a harsh mid/top end with a lot of material - too much material for it not to be something to do with the speaker if you ask me.
JBL do an 18 inch woofer for these guys:
https://bohne-audio.com/de/international-information-english/
The BB-18 paired with a couple of Bohne JBL 18 inch subs is absolutely killer. Need serious space and wonga for that, though.
Just think of it as doing what 4367s can do only bigged up by a large factor. Brilliant, really. World class? I think so, for my tastes. One of the best systems I have ever heard.
Four 4367s, two per channel stacked might be enough for huge giggles and enormous fun at less cost.
walpurgis
04-08-2023, 07:17
Not heard any JBL speakers for years. My impression was, the bigger they are, the worse they sound. The L300 and Paragon Suite for instance, seemed terribly coloured. The original L100 Century was punchy, but coarse. I didn't mind the small L26 Decade and I rather liked the L65 Jubal, a shortish floorstander that needs stands.
L65 Jubal
https://i.ibb.co/5kkkd3b/Screen-Shot-08-04-23-at-08-14-AM.png (https://ibb.co/7QQQHDs)
The JBL Paragon was a disaster, but I did quite like the Century 100 (the ones with the 'chocolate bar' foam grills).
There was a record shop in Manchester which used a pair suspended from the ceiling. They sounded very good given the location.
The L100 was what got me into hifi 35 years ago. Not had a listen to them since though. I suppose I'd spot all their flaws now.
Back on the original topic, the simple answer is it never is good enough.
That's why I reckon constant change is essential and that's why I have a setup that allows me to change the presentation in ways that graphic equalisers and other simple sound modifiers have never been able to do.
Still not good enough, though, but hey it's just a hobby.
So what system setup do you have?
In the words of Unlucky Alf - "Booger....I knew were goin to 'appen". Have been doing some updating around the house over the last few months and decided the leather 2 seater I have had in my man cave for years would look nice in one the rooms. A bit of an aside but I have been a member of Freecycle for years and never saw anything I thought worth having until the day I moved the sofa out. 2 leather office chairs in reasonable condition 30 mins away at a manor house just outside Guildford. So I go and get them and set them up.
How long is it going to take me to get my seat in the position that I used to sit on the sofa.....about too long! I could be dead by then! firstly they put my head a lot higher, so I remove the casters. Then I try to get the positioning right.........to be continued......and continued......and continued!
I reckon that my system has got to a point where it is good enough, for the current room.
When I move to my other house at retirement, speakers are probably going to be on the list of things to change, depending on which room I am allowed to move my main system into.
I reckon that my system has got to a point where it is good enough, for the current room.
When I move to my other house at retirement, speakers are probably going to be on the list of things to change, depending on which room I am allowed to move my main system into.
The bigger the better Kev.....room and speakers.
Pete The Cat
16-08-2023, 09:14
Seems to me that much of this interest is about learning to accept compromises. With so many variables in musical genre and source mastering there simply can't be a system out there that sounds good enough whatever you throw at it. That's before considering your room shape, furnishing, positioning, accommodating instructions from SWMBO... For me good enough was when most things sounded at least OK, some things sounded brilliant and nothing sounded so bad as to want to turn it off. I realised that it was now time to spend the money on the music again and I went back to being as carefree as I was when I first started buying LPs.
Pete
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