View Full Version : Industry Insiders And Their Nonsense
I'm not entirely sure when it was that I bought my first Hi-fi magazine but I think it must have been about 1989
I already had a system bought from Richer Sounds and was looking to upgrade so I got a copy of What Hi-Fi (AKA 'WTF?') in the hope of getting some guidance.
(I didn't and in the end I randomly bought some giant speakers from the 8 page 'Hyper-Fi' advert in the middle of the magazine, but that's a different story).
I carried on buying magazines, mostly Hi-Fi Review, Choice, Hi-Fi World up until about 2014 when I realised it was an expensive way to just read one speaker review and skip past all the cable reviews and adverts.
Now in 1989 I was a youth of twenty and knew nothing about pretty much everything. I'm not sure when I had the realisation that the magazines were not intended to serve the potential customer with useful consumer advice, but to serve the hi-fi industry by ensuring a constant supply of punters, but I suspect to my chagrin that I was in my late thirties when the penny dropped.
Now of course it is all on-line but the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Take, for example, this fairly brief article from Enjoy The Music (dot com) - https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0722/A_Look_Into_The_Future.htm
It's a great example of just why these sites are not a good source of impartial advice
The topic is essentially the age-old editorial about how 'The Industry Is Dying.' Well they used to do articles about this back in the 1980s. Like Hyman Roth in 'Godfather II' the hi-fi industry has been dying from the same heart-attack for the last forty years.
The writer is concerned that the rise in interest rates will mean young people won't have the money to move out of their parents house and into their own house, and so will never graduate from using smartphones and headphones as their source for listening to music. No more customers for the 'High-end'.
Oh dear, how sad. So what?
Well he tackles that question and it's quite revealing:
''Simple: Audiophiles and members of the industry that serves us (count me on both sides here) have long been concerned about the fate of our hobby.''
Okay so back up a minute. The hi-fi 'industry' exists to serve us? That's funny, I thought that, like any company, a hi-fi company's purpose is to make money for their shareholders. Of course he knows that, he just doesn't want us to think that.
We (or at least a good many of us) therefore thought "Aha! Every kid has a cellphone; every kid loves music; every kid will get "get into" good sound through his cell phone; and at least a majority of those kids will go on to wanting good sound at home. Voila! A new "us" and an ongoing market for our industry.
Again 'Our industry'. Whose industry now? I make a living in the motor trade, mate, hi-fi isn't 'my' industry nor is it likely to be the industry of 99.999 percent of the people reading your article, given it's an industry that employs comparatively few people. You've got problems finding punters for expensive tat, talk to your marketing department, it's nothing to do with us.
So yes, he's worried that in 10 years or whatever there'll be no-one interested in spending big money on hi-fi. The usual story we've been hearing for half a century. Why is it this time?
''not only do younger people tend to have less money than older ones, but they also tend to live in different places: Depending on their age, they may still be living "at home", with their parents. Or they may be in school, grad school, or working at whatever kind of job. Whatever their circumstances, though, it's likely that they're not going to be living in their own house, but in a room or an apartment, not only limited in space to set up a system or a listening room, but also subject to restrictions on how loud and when they can play their music.''
But wait a minute! I had the box room at my parents house, tiny room, still had a hi-fi system in there. Then went to University and lived in a little breeze-block cell for three years - still had a hifi system in there. Then to a box room in a shared house - still had a hi-fi system there too, with big speakers. Err.. the trick is just not to play it so loud.
And as for money - I was as poor as a church mouse but you could always get discounted bin-end kit and second hand kit if you wanted a change or an upgrade on a tight budget. And I still managed to get a mortgage somehow anyway.
Really I'm fed up with reading about things being difficult financially for young people. It was always that way unless your parents were loaded.
What he's really worried about is that these youngsters are never going to be in a position to buy expensive hi-fi. Because that's where the big margins are.
Well you can't blame them for trying I suppose. But how about making some good affordable products and writing about them. Or writing about second-hand bargains instead of reviews of ten grand streamers, cables and other expensive, magic-powered nonsense that surely has the effect of putting off impecunious youngsters looking at getting into the hobby?
Industry Insiders Bollocks. Self-serving and - ultimately - counter-productive.
probably all true mate.. luxury products look good in glossies, and are paid for mostly by the product placement, not the selling of mags. if it were with the buying of mags, there would be a topless bint carressing each speaker;)
All true. I haven't read a 'Hi-Fi' magazine for at least 15 years. I got fed up with the likes of Ken Kessler or Michael Fremer raving about the latest "Veblen" product or of the latest hi-fi audio fad.
Back in the '80s Kessler did point out that some vintage equipment around at the time was still very good and could then be bought relatively cheaply, but he long abandoned the bargain basement, preferring to salivate over stupidly-expensive 'high end' audio products.
All true. I haven't read a 'Hi-Fi' magazine for at least 15 years. I got fed up with the likes of Ken Kessler or Michael Fremer raving about the latest "Veblen" product or of the latest hi-fi audio fad.
Back in the '80s Kessler did point out that some vintage equipment around at the time was still very good and could then be bought relatively cheaply, but he long abandoned the bargain basement, preferring to salivate over stupidly-expensive 'high end' audio products.
Kessler is a good example actually. He's another one who's confused as to the relationship between the industry and the punters and doesn't grasp that they are two separate things. Audio Research's (or insert some other high end company name here) financial woes might be a legitimate concern for him but they're not my problem.
He's an entertaining writer and a proper enthusiast though so I forgive him even if he does talk bollocks almost the whole time.
Pigmy Pony
30-07-2023, 14:29
https://i0.wp.com/reprobatepress.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/great-knobs.jpg?w=444&h=554&ssl=1
From back in the day when most birds were happy to have several knobs on the go... The British hifi press put a stop to all that, and advocated putting a beer mat under one of your sofa legs. That's progress for you.
hifi_dave
30-07-2023, 15:21
What worries me is that the newcomer to Hi-Fi buys a copy of Hi-Fi News, reads about nothing much except £10K cartridges, £80K speakers, £100K amps, £15K mains leads etc and thinks that is what you need to buy to get a Hi-Fi system. He then moves on to another hobby he can actually afford, not realising that so little of this obscenely priced, reviewed gear is actually sold and that a decent system can be bought for far less.
I've always sold 'high end' along with reasonably priced equipment but I've been left behind with my top ranking equipment being £10-12K and that's now classed as mid price.:scratch:
rmcin626
30-07-2023, 15:50
I stopped buying hifi magazines over 20 years ago, although I do go on line to view the record reviews in Hifi news
Sherwood
30-07-2023, 16:19
I read the occasional hifi magazine for free through my local library online services: Pressreader on Libby between them cover most of the main titles
Pigmy Pony
30-07-2023, 16:23
I get Hifi Choice and What Hifi every month, but only because my neighbour buys them and passes them over the fence when he's done. Takes me about half an hour to get through both of them.
What worries me is that the newcomer to Hi-Fi buys a copy of Hi-Fi News, reads about nothing much except £10K cartridges, £80K speakers, £100K amps, £15K mains leads etc and thinks that is what you need to buy to get a Hi-Fi system. He then moves on to another hobby he can actually afford, not realising that so little of this obscenely priced, reviewed gear is actually sold and that a decent system can be bought for far less.
I've always sold 'high end' along with reasonably priced equipment but I've been left behind with my top ranking equipment being £10-12K and that's now classed as mid price.:scratch:
Exactly my point. I am guessing you had a lot of customers start with your cheapest equipment and then move up over the years?
But if a potential first time buyer looked in your shop window and only saw the most expensive stuff they probably wouldn't bother to go in.
Interesting post Martin and many truths in there.
If you look at who owns large parts of the hifi industry you will find that it is all about shareholders and maximising their interests. Take some of the well known brands and peel away the layers and you will find some huge business investment owners at the other end who absolutely nothing to do with hifi. They just want to make cash... capitalist society so to be expected!
The very expensive gear just means they do not have to concern themselves selling to the masses but just the gullible few with deep pockets. No large amount of box shifting to make small profits but just sell a couple and make HUGE profits and far less hassle? Quite a few hifi business operate on this principle where they are not interested in the mass market low end but just the top as it means less effort for everyone involved in order to make lots of money. This is mirrored by the hifi shows which are stacked out with ridiculously priced high end gear.
The magazines and internet "reviewers" rarely look at affordable gear, although there are some exceptions, most of it is eye watering in price and funnily none ever gets a bad review. What a sad industry it has become when you pull back the curtain?
narabdela
30-07-2023, 17:33
...just the gullible few with deep pockets.
I don't worry about them. What concerns me are the gullible few who believe that putting themselves in debt is going to transport them to some sort of audio cloud nine.
(Can I interest anyone in an audiophile grade 13amp fuse, only £2400?) :)
I don't know how many people are still interested in building a separates system or their age group. I suspect that the majority of those who have such a system are over 50 years old or older:D. I Used to pore over all the hifi mags in the 80s imagining what the latest rave review sounded like. Yes, getting expectation bias from a picture and some print of what the reviewer thought of it! as a teenager I wanted a "Hifi" with big speakers with big bass. Teenagers these days (and older) are likely content with their phone and some bluetooth speakers or ear buds.
Fast forward to now. There are many ways to hear what the current flavour of the month is amplifier wise without spending mega bucks. I recently bought a new commercially available amp:eek: as it cost less than I could DIY it for. It uses one of the latest iterations of Class D, in a nice case with all the connections, but minus a power supply. I posted about it on another forum where the majority are into higher end stuff and got a few interested responses but as it cost so little I suspect they thought that there was no way it could be "Hifi" whatever that is. No one has bought one to my knowledge
You pays your money and you takes your choice. Some have a price range in their mind for quality and anything under that cannot be any good.
I stopped reading mags years ago but occasionally flip through a few in WHSmith's. The price tags are laughable. Hifi News always used to be quite conservative with their ratings but now they all seem to be 100% positive:scratch:
Really I'm fed up with reading about things being difficult financially for young people. It was always that way unless your parents were loaded.
What he's really worried about is that these youngsters are never going to be in a position to buy expensive hi-fi. Because that's where the big margins are.
Well you can't blame them for trying I suppose. But how about making some good affordable products and writing about them. Or writing about second-hand bargains instead of reviews of ten grand streamers, cables and other expensive, magic-powered nonsense that surely has the effect of putting off impecunious youngsters looking at getting into the hobby?
Industry Insiders Bollocks. Self-serving and - ultimately - counter-productive.
Not often Macca & I agree on many things however today he is on the money.
Absolutely Martin,just like influencers on any form of social media 'giving' opinions on product 'x' or product 'y' because they feel self important or can lever £/$ from subscribers or patreons, many a gen x & snowflake thing but you will have lots of oddballs from just about ever form or hobby or interest
All of the under 30's want to be influencers on a YT channel making a living by doing virtually nothing, trying to find young, keen and genuine staff is all but impossible. I had one 'potential electronics apprentice' tell me how he will be on 35K after a 3 year course and that is was slave labour until then LOL
I know not all youngsters will be this way, but the M3 craving owners and £240 trainer bridgade are all the same, still live at home with mummy etc.
Like Martin mentioned you made do with what you had, did a few side hussles and made it work, yes things were much cheaper, but my first take home pay was £27.50 before you paid your bills lol
There were some youngsters at this years NW Audio show but they looked wealthy (you can always tell by the hair, rich kids have rich-kid hair).
Any normal youth thinking he quite fancied a proper hifi and who popped along to see what was on offer probably thought he'd need a lottery win to even get on the ladder.
It was a mate's dad's JVC/JBL system (my parents had no interest in music) that got me into it. I wanted that! But I don't think today's youth have the same chance to get exposure to proper equipment.
My neighbour is 32 and likes music but just has one of those blue tooth speakers. It's okay for background, not at all unpleasant. I offered to loan him a full system - not interested.
Beobloke
31-07-2023, 18:04
probably all true mate.. luxury products look good in glossies, and are paid for mostly by the product placement, not the selling of mags. if it were with the buying of mags, there would be a topless bint carressing each speaker;)
I’ve just sent in a review into Hi-Fi News of a pair of speakers. I can send in a topless photo of me draped over them if you think it’ll help sell more mags! ;)
What worries me is that the newcomer to Hi-Fi buys a copy of Hi-Fi News, reads about nothing much except £10K cartridges, £80K speakers, £100K amps, £15K mains leads etc and thinks that is what you need to buy to get a Hi-Fi system.
Whilst I understand where you’re coming from, if your mythical reader buys next months Hi-Fi News, he can also read about a good quality secondhand turntable that can be bought from around £150. I know because I wrote the article! A lot of the vintage things covered by the magazine recently have been eminently affordable.
I’ve just sent in a review into Hi-Fi News of a pair of speakers. I can send in a topless photo of me draped over them if you think it’ll help sell more mags! ;)
Whilst I understand where you’re coming from, if your mythical reader buys next months Hi-Fi News, he can also read about a good quality secondhand turntable that can be bought from around £150. I know because I wrote the article! A lot of the vintage things covered by the magazine recently have been eminently affordable.Bet I've better boobs lol
walpurgis
31-07-2023, 18:17
Whilst I understand where you’re coming from, if your mythical reader buys next months Hi-Fi News, he can also read about a good quality secondhand turntable that can be bought from around £150. I know because I wrote the article!
Hope it's a TD150.
Beobloke
31-07-2023, 19:52
Hope it's a TD150.
No! We did that years ago…
Beobloke
31-07-2023, 19:54
Bet I've better boobs lol
:lol:
hifi_dave
31-07-2023, 20:22
Whilst I understand where you’re coming from, if your mythical reader buys next months Hi-Fi News, he can also read about a good quality secondhand turntable that can be bought from around £150. I know because I wrote the article! A lot of the vintage things covered by the magazine recently have been eminently affordable.
That's all very well and I do read the vintage equipment write-ups but there are limited quantities of this kit, not all of it working properly after many years and not everybody looking for a Hi-Fi system wants to buy vintage with all that implies. Does the turntable you refer to have spares readily available, is it easy to repair/service and are there 50 or 100 on sale to cater for the new enthusiasts ?
IMO, the new enthusiast, in general, will want a system based on new equipment and it needs to be affordable, say £3 - 10K but read Hi-Fi News et-al and they wouldn't find any inspiration or help there unless they'd just won the European Lottery and can spend telephone numbers. I'm hoping that they are not scared off and have the inspiration and sense to look out the reasonably priced gear.
Beobloke
01-08-2023, 09:54
That's all very well and I do read the vintage equipment write-ups but there are limited quantities of this kit, not all of it working properly after many years and not everybody looking for a Hi-Fi system wants to buy vintage with all that implies. Does the turntable you refer to have spares readily available, is it easy to repair/service and are there 50 or 100 on sale to cater for the new enthusiasts ?
IMO, the new enthusiast, in general, will want a system based on new equipment and it needs to be affordable, say £3 - 10K but read Hi-Fi News et-al and they wouldn't find any inspiration or help there unless they'd just won the European Lottery and can spend telephone numbers. I'm hoping that they are not scared off and have the inspiration and sense to look out the reasonably priced gear.
I take your point, but to be fair, Hi-Fi News and Hi-Fi Choice are sister magazines. If your budget is £3-10k then Hi-Fi Choice is the better one to read.
Equally, when your lottery numbers come up and you’re looking for a £50k amplifier and £100k speakers, Hi-Fi News is probably a better bet!
That said, I’ve recently reviewed three cartridges for the magazine - one £8000, one £1250 and one £750, so we do try to cover a fairly decent price spread.
Most people would find £750 pricey!
Most people would find £750 pricey!
:thumbsup:
walpurgis
01-08-2023, 13:44
Most people would find £750 pricey!
It's exactly £750 more than I can spare for Hi-Fi now!:)
Pigmy Pony
01-08-2023, 14:52
This month's Hifi Choice includes Elipson speakers ranging from £300 to £750, a speakers group test £2400-£3500, a £750 Creek integrated, a very good article about Depeche Mode, including all their albums over the years, lots of album reviews, and even a couple of pages of free classifieds. That all seems pretty 'real world' to me.
Beobloke
02-08-2023, 08:12
Most people would find £750 pricey!
Absolutely.
And, yet, some others could rustle up £8000 for the Koetsu with no problems.
Absolutely.
And, yet, some others could rustle up £8000 for the Koetsu with no problems.
That's what the Industry is hoping for. I don't expect they are selling that many cartridges at that price and its a very profitable sale for those selling them.
Clive197
02-08-2023, 13:26
For someone who’s been down more black holes than a London Underground train, I’m here to tell you that the price of high end HiFi is absolutely not the point. Look at cars for example. We all see high end exotica at prices now approaching millions. How many people actually pay for them out of their own money. They become con artists, a fuse for £10,000 for example or a 3m cable for £100,000. We have all become the willing victims, blindly going down some gold plated path to achieve WHAT?
Or those that run around in povety spec's Volvo, yet have a seven bank balance it works both ways.
Consumerism and those that wish to accept a price tag or not, age old issue and will not change; just the method of airing one's opinion has changed to the point of social media whores and attention seeking individuals who are professional non payers.
Personally I couldn't think of anything more obtuse than dropping more than £500 on a cartridge, yet I am happy to outlay significantly more scope probes, its a matter of individal preference and what part of your life cycle you are currently 'in'
Life Jim, but just as you know it
I wouldn't dream of paying more than £50 for a pair of interconnects (which is why I make up my own), yet have paid £1,000 for a cartridge and a couple of thousand or more for preamps or CDPs; all of which were 'pre-owned'.
In the past, I used (then) 'state of the art' (film) cameras, costing thousands for travel photography, but I now use a fairly cheap digital camera of adequate quality.
Whereas my contemporaries run around in performance-tuned Mercedes and Audi cars, yet possess very modest audio systems, or none at all.
So it all depends on your interests and how you want to spend your money.
You couldn't buy a performance tuned Mercedes for the price some speakers and turntables are going for nowadays!:lol:
hifi_dave
02-08-2023, 20:18
The problem is they have become the norm in various Hi-Fi mags.
The problem is they have become the norm in various Hi-Fi mags.
Your right, the problem being many of the mags and reviewers have lost sight of reality and what most of the real world can afford. They have fallen down the bling rabbit hole and think its all about "aspirational" products and going along with reviewing the esoteric mega bucks equipment thinking that this is what folk want to read about.
The first thing I do is look at the price and then my interest in the review is usually over. :lol:
Beobloke
03-08-2023, 08:32
Your right, the problem being many of the mags and reviewers have lost sight of reality and what most of the real world can afford. They have fallen down the bling rabbit hole and think its all about "aspirational" products and going along with reviewing the esoteric mega bucks equipment thinking that this is what folk want to read about.
The first thing I do is look at the price and then my interest in the review is usually over. :lol:
That’s fair enough, yet your signature suggests you’re not using an entry-level turntable into cheap Bluetooth speakers, which is something many are happy with.
narabdela
03-08-2023, 08:51
That’s fair enough, yet your signature suggests you’re not using an entry-level turntable into cheap Bluetooth speakers, which is something many are happy with.
I can understand some of your postings here Adam. It is your livelihood after all, but I think you're in denial about the state of the audio magazine sector. I used to read Hi-Fi News avidly since my Dad started buying it in the late 1960s. I gave up on it after about 40 years when it started getting really silly. I don't even give it a second glance now on the rare occasions that I see it on a magzine rack these days. I know that there's nothing in there of the slightest interest to me.
I can understand some of your postings here Adam. It is your livelihood after all, but I think you're in denial about the state of the audio magazine sector. I used to read Hi-Fi News avidly since my Dad started buying it in the late 1960s. I gave up on it after about 40 years when it started getting really silly. I don't even give it a second glance now on the rare occasions that I see it on a magzine rack these days. I know that there's nothing in there of the slightest interest to me.
My experience exactly!
That’s fair enough, yet your signature suggests you’re not using an entry-level turntable into cheap Bluetooth speakers, which is something many are happy with.
No much of my system is not entry level but much of the gear is second hand and in total would not cost as much as one of your high end cartridges. Most of the stuff reviewed in the magazines nowadays seems to a have component prices far exceeding what the average person could afford. It may make entertaining reading but that is far as it goes. Like I say I look at the price first and then stop reading. That's why I have stopped reading the magazines and in fact stopped watching most Youtube content.
Hifi is now entertainment but not in the way it was intended.:)
Beobloke
03-08-2023, 09:42
I can understand some of your postings here Adam. It is your livelihood after all, but I think you're in denial about the state of the audio magazine sector. I used to read Hi-Fi News avidly since my Dad started buying it in the late 1960s. I gave up on it after about 40 years when it started getting really silly. I don't even give it a second glance now on the rare occasions that I see it on a magzine rack these days. I know that there's nothing in there of the slightest interest to me.
And, believe me, i completely understand the point of view that is being made here - for many, an expensive piece of hi-fi equipment is a complete non-starter.
The trouble is, from meeting people at hi-fi shows and some of the letters we get into the magazine, there are more than enough buyers out there to keep the high end going, especially when you look outside the UK. Much as it might come as a disappointment to people, a few hundred people on a couple of UK hi-fi forums do not represent the average high end hi-fi buyer. Equally, the point has been made about the financial state of the world. Unfortunately, those who can afford the really expensive stuff will nearly always be able to afford it. When crunches come, it's actually the middle ground that suffers , as budget items will always be popular and those who can afford to drop £8000 on a Koetsu cartridge or £50,000 on a SME Model 60 are likely to be largely immune to financial market perturbations.
Finally, Jimbo mentioned entertainment - well, why not treat a magazine as such? Most here know I'm a committed petrol-head but i have absolutely zero interest in buying a car magazine to read a review of the latest electric Corsa or the new budget-busting model from Dacia. The new Aston Martin DB12, though? Hell, yes - I want to read all about that, even though the chances of me ever owning one are also absolutely zero! A little dreaming never hurt anyone.
i never by mags of any sort as im not that interested in a paid promotion, which many are(not saying yours' are), but it can be hard to distiguish at times. that goes for all reviews really. i do look at online reviews but take them with a large pinch of salts. even customer reviews are often all a con of things like amazon etc.
so best way is a site like this where its mostly enthousiasts who are giving their opinions.
You are right Adam regarding the fact that there is a market for high priced gear as it would not exist otherwise and I am sure there are always buyers with deep pockets especially overseas.
I agree with your comparison with car magazines and can relate to the fact its great to drool over high priced exotica like the Aston Martin DB12 and `I do see this applies to much of the High End audio market too. Entertaining reading maybe but probably not something your going to sell your house for.:)
You can spend a lot more than £185,000 on an audio system.
Consider a fully fledged dCS CD reproducer, with a top of the range SME turntable and arm with a stone-bodied Koetsu, a DartZeel amplifier and the top of the range Wilson speakers.
Beobloke
03-08-2023, 10:36
You can spend a lot more than £185,000 on an audio system.
Consider a fully fledged dCS CD reproducer, with a top of the range SME turntable and arm with a stone-bodied Koetsu, a DartZeel amplifier and the top of the range Wilson speakers.
Even if I had the money, I wouldn’t buy most of that.
Whoops, did I say that out loud? [emoji6]
hifi_dave
03-08-2023, 10:40
You can spend a lot more than £185,000 on an audio system.
Consider a fully fledged dCS CD reproducer, with a top of the range SME turntable and arm with a stone-bodied Koetsu, a DartZeel amplifier and the top of the range Wilson speakers.
You can indeed but I doubt that the few people who can afford such will be reading a Hi-Fi magazine. They will wander, or get their PA to wander into one of the few retailers in the UK who stock such gear and request a system for £250K and when can it be installed.
My worry is that the ordinary man or woman looking for a system will not find their answers in Hi-Fi News or Choice etc. Their £5K or even £10K will get them a cable or maybe a cartridge. Are they then confused believing that their money is way beneath what is needed and go off to spend their money on a holiday or something ?
I've been reading Hi-Fi News since 1962 (:wheniwasaboy:) and used to look forward eagerly to each issue but for years now it's held virtually no interest for me. I look at the telephone numbers and turn the pages. Another thing is how is some of this kit priced ? An empty, but nice box with a x'mer, small pcb and a lot of air space for "£20K please sir".
Hifi has become like property. It used to be within reach for the many but now only the few.
Patrick Dixon
03-08-2023, 13:06
Hifi has become like property. It used to be within reach for the many but now only the few.
I think it's absolutely the opposite.
When I was a teenager, getting good sounding music at home was expensive and difficult. My first record player was a Fidelity mono record player but I couldn't afford more than a couple of records anyway, so I just swooped and borrowed music with friends.
Now music is essentially free and there are no pops and crackles, warps skips or jumps. It's all hi-fi.
hifi_dave
03-08-2023, 13:24
Hifi has become like property. It used to be within reach for the many but now only the few.
That's my point. Hi-Fi is still for the many as there is an awful lot of reasonably priced gear on the market, mainly from UK companies but you could be excused for thinking it's only for the very wealthy if you pick up a copy of certain magazines.
As an example, Hi-Fi News will be reviewing a cartridge soon which retails for £55K. I'm sure it's going to be wonderful but you can get a serious amount of enjoyment with one for £55.
And this £55K cartridge will probably still have a second harmonic distortion of several %, and will need re-tipping every couple of years.
I think it's absolutely the opposite.
When I was a teenager, getting good sounding music at home was expensive and difficult. My first record player was a Fidelity mono record player but I couldn't afford more than a couple of records anyway, so I just swooped and borrowed music with friends.
Now music is essentially free and there are no pops and crackles, warps skips or jumps. It's all hi-fi.
Haha my interpretation of hifi is probably a bit different from yours. :)
And this £55K cartridge will probably still have a second harmonic distortion of several %, and will need re-tipping every couple of years.
There's no reason a pick-up cartridge needs to cost fifty-five grand or even five grand. There's only so good anything can be.
The limit on vinyl sound quality is the medium itself pickups have long been better than they need to be - or can be. Just another product for the super-wealthy mug punters
Pigmy Pony
03-08-2023, 17:39
There's no reason a pick-up cartridge needs to cost fifty-five grand or even five grand. There's only so good anything can be.
The limit on vinyl sound quality is the medium itself pickups have long been better than they need to be - or can be. Just another product for the super-wealthy mug punters
Sorry could you repeat that? I missed it the first two times :ner:
I've spent pretty much all I'm going to spend on equipment - a speaker change one day and that's it. Already sounds good enough to me 90% of the time. Rest of my cash will just go on music.
Wakefield Turntables
03-08-2023, 19:23
Great debate so far. I must admit to getting Hi-Fi news every month. I like the old world traditional of getting a magazine delivered through a letter box and having something waiting for me after a long day at work. The old habit of getting a cup of tea, reading your mag and settling in for the night is very hard to beat and for £6 a month (or whatever it costs), is, for me, well worth the money.
I think I stopped reading paper mags because there was so little of interest in them.
I don't like the Spartan, sculpted look of contemporary equipment at all, it's visually boring so it's rare there's any of the photos that interest me.
Too much space taken up by reviews of what used to be called 'Computer Audio' - I don't know what they're calling it now. Or valve equipment. Or turntables. And then all the cable reviews. Just not of any real interest to me.
Even the adverts aren't what they used to be. I ended up only really reading the speaker reviews and then stopped bothering with it at all.
Noticed they do sell 'Choice' in Sainsburys so someone's buying them but that's the only hi-fi title they carry. If you want a magazine about air pistols there's three or four different ones.
Pigmy Pony
03-08-2023, 21:26
I think I stopped reading paper mags because there was so little of interest in them.
If you want a magazine about air pistols there's three or four different ones.
Trouble is they're all about ridiculously overpriced CO2 pistols and target ones with laser sights. And they all look the same. If there was one about vintage pistols I might buy it.
I wonder how PMC/Kudos/Neat/Kef and Rel are going to cope in the short term now Tinberworx has started laying staff off?
That's my point. Hi-Fi is still for the many as there is an awful lot of reasonably priced gear on the market, mainly from UK companies but you could be excused for thinking it's only for the very wealthy if you pick up a copy of certain magazines.
As an example, Hi-Fi News will be reviewing a cartridge soon which retails for £55K. I'm sure it's going to be wonderful but you can get a serious amount of enjoyment with one for £55.
I think HiFi probably is for the few as I am not sure how many young folk are buying systems as they live on earbuds / phone / laptop. There are a number of older folk who are still buying and circulating equipment but I am sure it is a shrinking pool.
The Megabucks Hifi is bought by the wealthy as a status bling thing along with top of the range cars/ watches / property etc. However I am sure there are still a very tiny amount of true audiophiles who have plenty of cash and are still buying expensive gear.
I recently saw a video on C H Precision and Dartzeel HiFi and their factories looked like they were very busy so someone is buying this top end gear but as a percentage of hifi sold and owned it must be minuscule.
It would be interesting to see percentages of the population who buy and own hifi nowadays and then break those down into £10K, £50K, £100K, etc systems.
How do you assess the cost of a system that uses 'vintage' components bought second hand, or new components which were bought a long time ago?
How do you assess the cost of a system that uses 'vintage' components bought second hand, or new components which were bought a long time ago?
Its value is incalculable to the owner.:)
A while ago I tried to list all the hi-fi component I have bought over the years, and to remember what I paid for each.
I then used eBay to try to evaluate what they are worth today. Don't have the figures to hand at the moment, but from memory it was around £80K.
AJSki2fly
04-08-2023, 16:50
I think HiFi probably is for the few as I am not sure how many young folk are buying systems as they live on earbuds / phone / laptop. There are a number of older folk who are still buying and circulating equipment but I am sure it is a shrinking pool.
The Megabucks Hifi is bought by the wealthy as a status bling thing along with top of the range cars/ watches / property etc. However I am sure there are still a very tiny amount of true audiophiles who have plenty of cash and are still buying expensive gear.
I recently saw a video on C H Precision and Dartzeel HiFi and their factories looked like they were very busy so someone is buying this top end gear but as a percentage of hifi sold and owned it must be minuscule.
It would be interesting to see percentages of the population who buy and own hifi nowadays and then break those down into £10K, £50K, £100K, etc systems.
I would consider myself in a very small minority nowadays, nearly all my friends, relatives, acquaintances and ex work colleagues do not own what we audiophiles might call HiFi. By that I would define a Hifi system as carefully selected separate components within a chosen budget aimed at getting the best SQ possible, not even necessarily of different marques for that matter. I am also ignoring the cost here, as it does not actually seem relevant from what I can determine, and also whether new or used purchases.
My experience tells me that the vast majority of musical punters today, if they are not listening on earbuds or in cars, who are listening to music with there ears do so on a rather casual basis and tend to do so on something like an Apple speaker(s), a Google enabled wireless speaker(s), Sonos, B&W Zeppelin(a bit up-market) etc, or something similar or even a TV sound bar :eek:. I would suspect that anything that cost more than £1K for most would be considered extreme, to put that in perspective it is the equivalent of spending £100-200 on a music reproduction system around 20-30 years ago, whether good or bad.
I think there are several key drivers that cause this:-
convenience
ease of installation
simple to use
does not take up much space
multiple function use in some cases
modern houses/rooms are small
music today is often listen to as a background or a continious stream of
music is not necessarily choose by artist/ album, user just select a style/genre and say play
perceived SQ from a couple of wifi/streaming enabled speakers far exceeds in terms of VFM than a Hifi system when comparing cost
To sum up, my friends, relatives, acquaintances and ex work colleagues basically all consider my fetish for vinyl, CDs, streaming listening to music on a regular basis and spending large amounts on hifi to get the best SQ experience (in their estimation) as completing bonkers. There you go we are all different I suppose.
Firebottle
04-08-2023, 18:12
A good insight Adrian, I think you are right on the money.
A lot of kit has passed though here, particularly DAC's, plus a few DIY projects, but I think I am at a stage where any serious jump in SQ is going to be very expensive.
So fo me it is definitely 'good enough'.
I don't see why you are ignoring costs. You friends, acquaintances, colleagues and ex-colleagues may not spend much on audio, but I expect they have spent a lot more on a TV, which to them might be more important.
I don't know anyone who owns a hifi system apart from folk on forums!:lol:
I don't know anyone who owns a hifi system apart from folk on forums!:lol:
I have a few friends who have proper systems but are not into hi-fi and would not go near a hifi forum.
They just like music and appreciate it is worth the extra spend over a blutooth speaker or (whatever horror civilians use these days).
There was always a hirearchym before streaming it went:
Boombox
Music centre/ midi system
Both those were the 'civilian level'
Then you had the one make stack system which was sort of quasi-separates.
Then onto the proper enthusiast 'mix n match' separates system but that was always the preserve of a small minority just like it is now.
I do think that the perceived cost of moving up that ladder, a perception created by the industry, puts a lot of people off from attempting it. But hi-fi will never be a mass pursuit, and never has been.
I think HIFI was a mass pursuit back in the 70s when you only had the option of playing vinyl or tape? Even if it meant a MUZIC CENTRE. Some of them were fantastic BTW.
I think HIFI was a mass pursuit back in the 70s when you only had the option of playing vinyl or tape? Even if it meant a MUZIC CENTRE. Some of them were fantastic BTW.
They were, my uncle had a top of the range Sony that was pretty damn good. But you would have needed to be on executive money to afford one of those.
In contrast we had a Saisho music centre with ruby stylus and twin tape decks.
My point is my uncle bought that Sony and my parents the Saisho and that was it, they were done. No upgrading, no trying different kit. That's not a pursuit it's just owning a music centre.
That's no use to the hi-fi industry. Nowdays the equivalent of the music centre would be a phone or computer and a powered speaker and/or headphones.
They need at least some of those people to graduate from that to the hard stuff, and they are worried that not enough will. However their strategy for achieving that objective is flawed. IMO.
The B&O stuff was pretty good too but yes folk just bought one and waited for it to die before buying another.
The separates shenanigans was only pursued by nutters like us!:lol: I know we are a minority and always will be like a rare uncontrollable illness!
walpurgis
04-08-2023, 20:31
My best mate has a very nice selection of proper Hi-Fi, better than I now have and he's never posted on a forum as far as I know (although he does keep an eye on proceedings here , I expect he'll read this :))
The high end hi-fi industry is worried about where that next generation of nutters will come from.
I just think they are putting off a lot of potential punters. A man doesn't walk onto the lot unless he wants to buy; but if he thinks there's nothing on the lot he can afford he won't enter.
Like those shops you see in upmarket malls where they have about ten things on display despite it being a massive showroom. I never go in those I bet none of us do.
The illness starts usually innocently when you first go round to a friends house and hear a decent stereo for the first time. You then get an idea of putting something together yourself and assemble a collection of gear which you have begged borrowed or bought cheaply at a young age. Then you start to become aware that there is a huge amount of this gear on the market all with promising magic audiophile properties.
So then you start buying magazines and hanging around hifi shops and trying to find other people who have the same illness as yourself and eventually you become acquainted with other weirdos who have a fetish for boxes and wires and turntables etc. You gather a group of friends or become friendly with a shop or dealer and borrow equipment or spend hours "auditioning" gear you would like to own but can't really afford.. By then you are right in it up to your neck and the madness starts. You spend lots of sleepless nights trying to figure out how you can fund this addiction as you soon realise it can get very expensive very quickly.
Years pass and you become a hardened addict succumbing to every hifi mystical practise and spend thousands and thousands on different boxes and wires but never quite manage to reach audio nirvana. You tell yourself many times you are there and that's it but deep inside you know that it is never the end and then you find yourself years later grey haired and much poorer on a hifi forum still discussing boxes and wires and on it goes...............
walpurgis
05-08-2023, 08:10
The illness starts usually innocently when you first go round to a friends house and hear a decent stereo for the first time.
That's exactly how it started for me.
Despite my dad being a serious electronics buff, I'd never heard Hi-Fi system, the old man being more into building radio gear. He had a couple of copies of Hi-Fi News and when I asked about them, He said they were "all nonsense" (was he right? :lol:).
Then a mate of mine bought a brand new setup in the late sixties and it blew me away, especially hearing detailed treble for the first time. Many might laugh, but it was Goodmans Magister speakers, Sansui AU-101 amp and a Garrard AP76 deck with I think a Goldring cart. I'd never heard anything like it before!
I was doomed from that day on!!
narabdela
05-08-2023, 09:43
Many might laugh...
Not me. :nono:
Nor me - all three items were respectable examples of good quality audio components.
At the time the only thing better in the UK was either a Thorens/Garrard/Goldring turntable with an SME arm, with either Quad or Radford amplification and perhaps a pair of Tannoy speakers.
(Or one might have taken a walk on the wild side and followed the Linn/Naim path.)
AJSki2fly
05-08-2023, 13:09
A good insight Adrian, I think you are right on the money.
A lot of kit has passed though here, particularly DAC's, plus a few DIY projects, but I think I am at a stage where any serious jump in SQ is going to be very expensive.
So fo me it is definitely 'good enough'.
Yes, I think it gets to a point where spending another few thousand on a TT, Pre-Amp, Amp, Speakers will not necessarily get much improvement in perceived SQ, although it might produce a different sound tonally.
If a few thousand does gain an improvement then often this is quite small improvement, shall we shall that sight improvement in detail/clarity, a more musical or natural rendition or perhaps a point where the listener is just enjoying the music being played, whatever the source. Thing is I suspect that nowadays this can quite easily be achieve with a £5-10K budget with careful selection and synergy of components, there are some very well made and high quality components out there, and if matched well will give a very good result. Alternatively carefully selected older used well received high-end components can give great result, I have ended up taking this route to get best SQ for my £s, and VFM. The only part of my system that could be considered new is the turntable(and that was ex-demo) and the cartridge.
If a few thousand does gain an improvement then often this is quite small improvement, shall we shall that sight improvement in detail/clarity, a more musical or natural rendition or perhaps a point where the listener is just enjoying the music being played, whatever the source. Thing is I suspect that nowadays this can quite easily be achieve with a £5-10K .
I would say even less than that is required - unless a turntable is involved - or you want high levels and very deep bass in a big space ofc.
AJSki2fly
05-08-2023, 13:29
I don't see why you are ignoring costs. You friends, acquaintances, colleagues and ex-colleagues may not spend much on audio, but I expect they have spent a lot more on a TV, which to them might be more important.
I am not really ignoring costs, the reality is that in general friends, acquaintances, colleagues and ex-colleagues do not spend much on a music system of any sorts. I would say most people would start twitching if they spent over £2K on a system, certainly most wives will. Once you get to the £5-15K level then I think we are getting into what most of use would call the 'Audiophile' arena, whether purchased new or pre-loved, at that level an obsession with music reproduction and SQ has probably sunk in, the fever has taken over so to speak.
I suspect beyond the £15-30K systems are owned by those who have well and truly got the 'Audiophile' disease and have spent some time over a number of years swapping components around to try and get to that elusive sound that they love, I am the first to own up to be one of these(at the lower end).
My next statement may offend some, it certainly is not meant to, just an observation really. I think, at current cost levels, once a system starts going beyond the £30K level it becomes somewhat difficult to determine if greater spend actually gains much SQ improvement over the carefully put together £15-30K systems. No doubt for some that can afford a £30K+ system it will be about bragging rights or just because they can, or because they want he perceived Ferrari of the Audiophile world, for a few it will be down to chasing that 'Audiophile' SQ panacea of perfect sound reproduction, if there is such a thing.
On the TV costing point, only one friend has spent over £1.5K on a TV, even though several of them spend a great deal of time watching sport and films.
AJSki2fly
05-08-2023, 13:37
The illness starts usually innocently when you first go round to a friends house and hear a decent stereo for the first time. You then get an idea of putting something together yourself and assemble a collection of gear which you have begged borrowed or bought cheaply at a young age. Then you start to become aware that there is a huge amount of this gear on the market all with promising magic audiophile properties.
So then you start buying magazines and hanging around hifi shops and trying to find other people who have the same illness as yourself and eventually you become acquainted with other weirdos who have a fetish for boxes and wires and turntables etc. You gather a group of friends or become friendly with a shop or dealer and borrow equipment or spend hours "auditioning" gear you would like to own but can't really afford.. By then you are right in it up to your neck and the madness starts. You spend lots of sleepless nights trying to figure out how you can fund this addiction as you soon realise it can get very expensive very quickly.
Years pass and you become a hardened addict succumbing to every hifi mystical practise and spend thousands and thousands on different boxes and wires but never quite manage to reach audio nirvana. You tell yourself many times you are there and that's it but deep inside you know that it is never the end and then you find yourself years later grey haired and much poorer on a hifi forum still discussing boxes and wires and on it goes...............
Quite agree James, a very good description of how most of us have probably got sucked in to the 'Audiophile' disease.
Of course it can get worse when dissatisfied by a particular record or tape that the true 'Audiophile' start looking for that perfect pressing from the original master tape which is in pristine condition and is going to give the best listening experience ever. I have very nearly succumbed to this on a number of occasions with a few favourite albums, but thus far have managed to give myself a good slap and talking to.:eek::lol:
AJSki2fly
05-08-2023, 13:41
That's exactly how it started for me.
Despite my dad being a serious electronics buff, I'd never heard Hi-Fi system, the old man being more into building radio gear. He had a couple of copies of Hi-Fi News and when I asked about them, He said they were "all nonsense" (was he right? :lol:).
Then a mate of mine bought a brand new setup in the late sixties and it blew me away, especially hearing detailed treble for the first time. Many might laugh, but it was Goodmans Magister speakers, Sansui AU-101 amp and a Garrard AP76 deck with I think a Goldring cart. I'd never heard anything like it before!
I was doomed from that day on!!
Sounds familiar!
It would be interesting to know the division of expenditure between software and hardware for a typical 'audiophile'.
Again the problem would be to assess cost of items bought years ago, compared to their cost today. Do I value my record collection at £20 per LP and say £10 per CD?
Quite agree James, a very good description of how most of us have probably got sucked in to the 'Audiophile' disease.
Of course it can get worse when dissatisfied by a particular record or tape that the true 'Audiophile' start looking for that perfect pressing from the original master tape which is in pristine condition and is going to give the best listening experience ever. I have very nearly succumbed to this on a number of occasions with a few favourite albums, but thus far have managed to give myself a good slap and talking to.:eek::lol:
Just part of the illness.:lol:
AJSki2fly
05-08-2023, 14:01
It would be interesting to know the division of expenditure between software and hardware for a typical 'audiophile'.
Again the problem would be to assess cost of items bought years ago, compared to their cost today. Do I value my record collection at £20 per LP and say £10 per CD?
Well, according Discogs valuations if I max'd out and sold my LPs and CD's I could enter the seriously expensive Hifi strata. I have just checked in my catalogue DB and so far my LP expenditure is not far off what my system cost is:eek:, and about 1/5 of it was given to me by some very kind friends who gave up on records many years ago.
rmcin626
05-08-2023, 14:19
I am not really ignoring costs, the reality is that in general friends, acquaintances, colleagues and ex-colleagues do not spend much on a music system of any sorts. I would say most people would start twitching if they spent over £2K on a system, certainly most wives will. Once you get to the £5-15K level then I think we are getting into what most of use would call the 'Audiophile' arena, whether purchased new or pre-loved, at that level an obsession with music reproduction and SQ has probably sunk in, the fever has taken over so to speak.
I suspect beyond the £15-30K systems are owned by those who have well and truly got the 'Audiophile' disease and have spent some time over a number of years swapping components around to try and get to that elusive sound that they love, I am the first to own up to be one of these(at the lower end).
My next statement may offend some, it certainly is not meant to, just an observation really. I think, at current cost levels, once a system starts going beyond the £30K level it becomes somewhat difficult to determine if greater spend actually gains much SQ improvement over the carefully put together £15-30K systems. No doubt for some that can afford a £30K+ system it will be about bragging rights or just because they can, or because they want he perceived Ferrari of the Audiophile world, for a few it will be down to chasing that 'Audiophile' SQ panacea of perfect sound reproduction, if there is such a thing.
On the TV costing point, only one friend has spent over £1.5K on a TV, even though several of them spend a great deal of time watching sport and films.
My system is certainly in the £5k-£15k bracket and there is no chance that it will go out of the bracket. Although I was thinking of making some changes prior to moving house, currently everything is still boxed up, so will be a few weeks before everything is set up again. I did have a discussion with a hifi dealer a couple months ago about some changes, and his suggestion was to change the speakers, however I think there would be more improvement if the cartridge or phone stage were upgraded, time will tell and I do have funds set aside , a max of £5k for any changes but only if they would provide significant improvements.
We do watch a far amount of movies and sport so the TV was a big spend , best part of £2k including a sound bar if remember correctly.
Assuming the figures I quoted, the software would cost around £65K, whereas I have spent an estimated £80K on equipment (but I have enough to assemble four very decent systems, should I want to).
I would suggest if you have spent more on the hardware than on software, you are an 'audiophile', whereas if the other way around you are a 'music lover'.
Not quite sure where that places me.
AJSki2fly
05-08-2023, 14:30
My system is certainly in the £5k-£15k bracket and there is no chance that it will go out of the bracket. Although I was thinking of making some changes prior to moving house, currently everything is still boxed up, so will be a few weeks before everything is set up again. I did have a discussion with a hifi dealer a couple months ago about some changes, and his suggestion was to change the speakers, however I think there would be more improvement if the cartridge or phone stage were upgraded, time will tell and I do have funds set aside , a max of £5k for any changes but only if they would provide significant improvements.
We do watch a far amount of movies and sport so the TV was a big spend , best part of £2k including a sound bar if remember correctly.
I think we are in a similar area when it comes HiFi. I recall your investigations into speakers. My experience with speakers was a difficult one, I was lucky although it nearly cost several thousand but I recovered and still have the same one now for 5 years. I would only change for the same make after a prolonged home demo.
For me the most painful part was amplification, I got it wrong twice, should have stuck with a very good Meridian 557, but went down 300b path and cause mismatch issues with speakers, ended back with a Krell (SS).
I would agree with the cartridge/tonearm, if the rest of the system works well together and you like it’s overall performance the this is a good area to improve.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
rmcin626
05-08-2023, 14:44
I think we are in a similar area when it comes HiFi. I recall your investigations into speakers. My experience with speakers was a difficult one, I was lucky although it nearly cost several thousand but I recovered and still have the same one now for 5 years. I would only change for the same make after a prolonged home demo.
For me the most painful part was amplification, I got it wrong twice, should have stuck with a very good Meridian 557, but went down 300b path and cause mismatch issues with speakers, ended back with a Krell (SS).
I would agree with the cartridge/tonearm, if the rest of the system works well together and you like it’s overall performance the this is a good area to improve.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree we are probably in a similar place, happy with the amp and the speakers, I do think there is improvement to be achieved in the tonearm/cartridge/phono stage. Although there it will have wait while we sort out the house after the move.
The only two mistakes I have made in over 50 years pursuing this particular hobby was to decline an offer to buy a Leak Stereo 20 valve amp for £20 - I didn't have the money.
The other mistake was to buy a Teac DAC which doesn't work properly with any of my CDPs.
Pigmy Pony
05-08-2023, 15:03
Assuming the figures I quoted, the software would cost around £65K, whereas I have spent an estimated £80K on equipment (but I have enough to assemble four very decent systems, should I want to).
I would suggest if you have spent more on the hardware than on software, you are an 'audiophile', whereas if the other way around you are a 'music lover'.
Not quite sure where that places me.
Music lover I would say. Your input on the 'Musical Compositions' threads shows this :) How I differentiate: A music lover chooses hifi to make his music sound better, an audiophile chooses music that makes his hifi sound better.
Pigmy Pony
05-08-2023, 15:15
I agree we are probably in a similar place, happy with the amp and the speakers, I do think there is improvement to be achieved in the tonearm/cartridge/phono stage. Although there it will have wait while we sort out the house after the move.
Though on the other hand, while changes with the arm/cart may well bring improvements, those improvements will be limited to your vinyl playing and obviously will do nothing for your digital music. Speakers upgrades will potentially improve everything.
Anyway your next listening room may well interact with your existing speakers differently, so as you say, best to wait until you're set up in your new place before doing anything.
AJSki2fly
05-08-2023, 15:18
Music lover I would say. Your input on the 'Musical Compositions' threads shows this :) How I differentiate: A music lover chooses hifi to make his music sound better, an audiophile chooses music that makes his hifi sound better.
Thanks Steve, that sits quite well with me:), I have been called a foolish Audiophile by some others in the past, who should know better at my age.
So where do you think you fit into the spread of Music(al) aficianoda and a seeker of audiavarna?:D
rmcin626
05-08-2023, 15:24
Though on the other hand, while changes with the arm/cart may well bring improvements, those improvements will be limited to your vinyl playing and obviously will do nothing for your digital music. Speakers upgrades will potentially improve everything.
Anyway your next listening room may well interact with your existing speakers differently, so as you say, best to wait until you're set up in your new place before doing anything.
I will be setting everything up before any decision is made, 95% of music listening is with vinyl, I will address the digital side in due course.
I used to love reading hifi mags, but looking at the now, especially the earlier ones I can't understand why.
A few pages of news, ie adverts, a few pages of reviews (product descriptions) and loads of adds. If you were lucky readers questions, but they seem so silly they had to be made up.
The new fangled approach was always the best, but actually more about cost saving. Ever wondered why tone controls got such bad rap and now EQ is mainstream
The other day I was testing a SUT via a rotel 820a and some technics speakers, made me wonder why I had spent more
AJSki2fly
05-08-2023, 16:14
Though on the other hand, while changes with the arm/cart may well bring improvements, those improvements will be limited to your vinyl playing and obviously will do nothing for your digital music. Speakers upgrades will potentially improve everything.
Anyway your next listening room may well interact with your existing speakers differently, so as you say, best to wait until you're set up in your new place before doing anything.
On the speaker front I used to think that apart form placement nothing much could be done to improve the sonical rendition, over the past 5 years in two different listening rooms I have learnt I was wrong. As long as the amp and speakers are matched reasonably well and work well together I would look at the following first.
Once the speakers are positioned as well as can be to get the best listening experience I would undertake the two following exercises before considering changing the speakers.
1. Speaker isolation, to clarify de-coupling from the floor.
By this I mean remove speaker spikes or fixed feet, they couple the speakers to the floor, and will transmit vibrations of differing frequencies to and from it. Place the speakers on suitable isolation platforms, stands or feet. I have experimented with rubber (for washing machines), pure sorbothane(ensure correct density for the overall weight) and various combinations and have stood the speakers on heavy wood(oak platforms). The most cost effective I have found are these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bigfoot-Isolation-Feet-8-Pack/dp/B08GLBKRYZ/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=WME01OGZMXZW&keywords=hudson%2Bspeaker%2Bisolation&qid=1691249248&sprefix=hudson%2Bspeaker%2Bisolation%2B%2Caps%2C75&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1 Although a friend has just offered me some Townshend pods to try, as he has had to change his due to a system upgrade, I shall see if they improve matters at all, they are about 8 time the cost.
2. Room acoustics.
If the listening room has lots of glass and/or plain hard surface walls/floor it will be a reflective nightmare, and empty corners will be a bass boom box. You do not need to spend lots of dosh on room acoustics treatment panels. Lots of soft furnishings, shelving with randomly place objects, books and so on work. In corners place tall round lamps or as we have in one a display which looks like a sheaf of corn(witches broom, no it is not Sue's). Overall this approach will dampen the room acoustically and improve SQ. In one corner we have a glass door, when I listen I often hang a 6' by 3' thin rug infront of it, like a wall hanging, it is surprising how much difference this makes, I lknow I have measured it with REW. Listening position is important, avoid siting at 1st and 2nd node reflection points, it will not be good, 1st node is unlikely you will be very close to the speakers, there are online calculators to find these using your room dimensions, or use the wall along the mirror technique.
Having done 1 and 2 to your satisfaction, I would again experiment with changing speaker and listening position slightly, I don't mean by huge amounts but just an inch here or there, can solidify the soundstage and bring focus to instruments in the mix. Trying a little at a time and listening each time with a favourite track is the way to go.
I know others on here have done similar and reported worthwhile improvements. It can be quite satisfying to spend very little and get quite a gain in sound quality. I am sure that there are many who have quite good systems but they could sound really good if a bit of effort was put into its physical set up in the room and how it interacted with it. I would add that some rooms can be very difficult to deal with, square is awful, and L shape can be problematic. Our last house had dot and dab walls, it took me some time to realise these could act as flat panel resonators, especially where they had not been regularly and securely fixed, put on a bassy track and it could feel like you were in a boom box, I never successfully got over it fully, but did improve matters to a more acceptable level. (Take note I changed speakers twice before I realised this was part of the cause of my audio dissatisfaction:doh:) A key to minimising this was to move the speakers out from the wall behind them to their optimum position based on the length and width of the room, again there are calculators that will do this so you can avoid node re-enforcement and listening position. I have done the same in our new house, and have concluded it is the best thing you can do to get a good soundstage and a focused presentation.
I hope some may find this helpful, I have rambled on too much, just some audio food for thought.:eyebrows:
rmcin626
05-08-2023, 16:40
On the speaker front I used to think that apart form placement nothing much could be done to improve the sonical rendition, over the past 5 years in two different listening rooms I have learnt I was wrong. As long as the amp and speakers are matched reasonably well and work well together I would look at the following first.
Once the speakers are positioned as well as can be to get the best listening experience I would undertake the two following exercises before considering changing the speakers.
1. Speaker isolation, to clarify de-coupling from the floor.
By this I mean remove speaker spikes or fixed feet, they couple the speakers to the floor, and will transmit vibrations of differing frequencies to and from it. Place the speakers on suitable isolation platforms, stands or feet. I have experimented with rubber (for washing machines), pure sorbothane(ensure correct density for the overall weight) and various combinations and have stood the speakers on heavy wood(oak platforms). The most cost effective I have found are these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bigfoot-Isolation-Feet-8-Pack/dp/B08GLBKRYZ/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=WME01OGZMXZW&keywords=hudson%2Bspeaker%2Bisolation&qid=1691249248&sprefix=hudson%2Bspeaker%2Bisolation%2B%2Caps%2C75&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1 Although a friend has just offered me some Townshend pods to try, as he has had to change his due to a system upgrade, I shall see if they improve matters at all, they are about 8 time the cost.
2. Room acoustics.
If the listening room has lots of glass and/or plain hard surface walls/floor it will be a reflective nightmare, and empty corners will be a bass boom box. You do not need to spend lots of dosh on room acoustics treatment panels. Lots of soft furnishings, shelving with randomly place objects, books and so on work. In corners place tall round lamps or as we have in one a display which looks like a sheaf of corn(witches broom, no it is not Sue's). Overall this approach will dampen the room acoustically and improve SQ. In one corner we have a glass door, when I listen I often hang a 6' by 3' thin rug infront of it, like a wall hanging, it is surprising how much difference this makes, I lknow I have measured it with REW. Listening position is important, avoid siting at 1st and 2nd node reflection points, it will not be good, 1st node is unlikely you will be very close to the speakers, there are online calculators to find these using your room dimensions, or use the wall along the mirror technique.
Having done 1 and 2 to your satisfaction, I would again experiment with changing speaker and listening position slightly, I don't mean by huge amounts but just an inch here or there, can solidify the soundstage and bring focus to instruments in the mix. Trying a little at a time and listening each time with a favourite track is the way to go.
I know others on here have done similar and reported worthwhile improvements. It can be quite satisfying to spend very little and get quite a gain in sound quality. I am sure that there are many who have quite good systems but they could sound really good if a bit of effort was put into its physical set up in the room and how it interacted with it. I would add that some rooms can be very difficult to deal with, square is awful, and L shape can be problematic. Our last house had dot and dab walls, it took me some time to realise these could act as flat panel resonators, especially where they had not been regularly and securely fixed, put on a bassy track and it could feel like you were in a boom box, I never successfully got over it fully, but did improve matters to a more acceptable level. (Take note I changed speakers twice before I realised this was part of the cause of my audio dissatisfaction:doh:) A key to minimising this was to move the speakers out from the wall behind them to their optimum position based on the length and width of the room, again there are calculators that will do this so you can avoid node re-enforcement and listening position. I have done the same in our new house, and have concluded it is the best thing you can do to get a good soundstage and a focused presentation.
I hope some may find this helpful, I have rambled on too much, just some audio food for thought.:eyebrows:
Thanks Adrian, that’s very helpful, at the moment I am thinking of a garden room as the solution , it wont be a shed or posh shed. This is not a cheap solution but one we have budgeted for and I think will work well.
AJSki2fly
05-08-2023, 16:44
Hi Robin, I will be very interested to see and hear how your new dedicated listening room works out, exciting.:D Only a little jealous.
rmcin626
05-08-2023, 17:21
Hi Robin, I will be very interested to see and hear how your new dedicated listening room works out, exciting.:D Only a little jealous.
Adrian will update you in due course, we have worked hard to make our retirement as comfortable as possible, having a decent financial advisor helps, moving house was surprise to be honest, the dedicated music room was not the prime reason.
Adrian will update you in due course, we have worked hard to make our retirement as comfortable as possible, having a decent financial advisor helps, moving house was surprise to be honest, the dedicated music room was not the prime reason.
enjoy it while you can. alas the time we get can be limited when you retire at, what is it now? 66. hell, 50 years ago average age of death wasnt much more.
hifi_dave
05-08-2023, 17:45
Thanks for that, as if I wasn't feeling depressed enough.
I was often told about enjoying my 'golden years'. Trouble is you can't enjoy them because your health is going downhill rapidly.
rmcin626
05-08-2023, 17:55
enjoy it while you can. alas the time we get can be limited when you retire at, what is it now? 66. hell, 50 years ago average age of death wasnt much more.
Hoping I take after my mum who managed to get to 93
Hoping I take after my mum who managed to get to 93Hope so mate [emoji3]. My mum made 86. Alas dad evened it up by going at 56.
rmcin626
05-08-2023, 18:11
Hope so mate [emoji3]. My mum made 86. Alas dad evened it up by going at 56.
Hoping the genes are still good my dad made it to 82
Pigmy Pony
05-08-2023, 19:55
Thanks Steve, that sits quite well with me:), I have been called a foolish Audiophile by some others in the past, who should know better at my age.
So where do you think you fit into the spread of Music(al) aficianoda and a seeker of audiavarna?:D
My spread of musical afficionada barely fits into my 34"W jeans these days, so I try not to think about it too much...
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