View Full Version : Integrated Amp overkill?
i am looking to upgrade my Marantz PM7003, not because i need to, just want to try something further up the ladder.
having recently bought a Rega P8 and Aria phono stage, i want to get the best out of it.
part of me wants to stick with Rega for choice of amp, but open to others. (ie Roksan K3 or Caspian)
my obvious choice would be the Elex-r, but i have seen the next model up, the Elicit-r available for not much more money on the used market.
my problem is, i use nearfield monitors (Dynaudio M10) so will never push an amp of this calibre.
so i know this is massive overkill, but are there any drawbacks to doing this other than the obvious overspend (which i can live with)?
looking only at used market, so i can move it on if things dont work out without losing too much.
Pigmy Pony
20-06-2023, 22:41
I think you would struggle to find an amp with too much power. Better to have "too much" than just enough imo. When my brother switched from his Marantz integrated (can't remember the model, but in theory should have been adequate) to his Musical Fidelity A3 (with more power and higher current) the difference it made to his speakers' performance was immediately obvious. Brought them to life.
as Steve says, usually better too much than too little. its unlikely you'll overdrive the monitors, but having extra oomph is always handy. one day you may also change speakers so having more may be of use there.
elicit is a good choice
AJSki2fly
21-06-2023, 10:09
i am looking to upgrade my Marantz PM7003, not because i need to, just want to try something further up the ladder.
having recently bought a Rega P8 and Aria phono stage, i want to get the best out of it.
part of me wants to stick with Rega for choice of amp, but open to others. (ie Roksan K3 or Caspian)
my obvious choice would be the Elex-r, but i have seen the next model up, the Elicit-r available for not much more money on the used market.
my problem is, i use nearfield monitors (Dynaudio M10) so will never push an amp of this calibre.
so i know this is massive overkill, but are there any drawbacks to doing this other than the obvious overspend (which i can live with)?
looking only at used market, so i can move it on if things dont work out without losing too much.
I would agree with Steve's thoughts, in my experience (too my cost and several upgrades), if the amp has the power and is good then it should bring out the best in the speakers.
A couple of thoughts:-
A cople of reviews of the Elicit-r, although it is generally considered a very good amp.
":Some might prefer a more relaxed presentation
-A slightly bright character means careful system matching is a must"
"If you have difficult speakers to drive, you may want to audition carefully. Especially if you also have a turntable... you may be pushing the amp close to the edge."
I am not familiar with your speakers, but are highly rated in the price band they fit. They are in the middle of sensitivity 86dB (2,83V / 1m), although this may not be an issue for near field listening. However on the slightly bright character noted above of the amp I would try and home demo the amp with your speakers, or at least get a 14 day return policy if not happy.
In my experience amp and speaker pairing can be a tricky business, put one amp with a speaker and you can exaggerate it or the speakers traits, good or bad, put another seemingly similar amp with the same speakers and you can get a completely different result which compliments both.
So at the end of the day my advice is do a demo, at home if possible, if not take your speakers & cables to the dealer and some favourite LPs/CDs and spend a reasonable amount of time listening, any good dealer should be happy to offer this.
Lawrence001
21-06-2023, 11:16
Perfect advice from Adrian there. The one thing I don't understand is this point:
"If you have difficult speakers to drive, you may want to audition carefully. Especially if you also have a turntable... you may be pushing the amp close to the edge."
A phono stage hardly draws any current so I'm not sure I get what they mean.
AJSki2fly
21-06-2023, 11:23
Perfect advice from Adrian there. The one thing I don't understand is this point:
"If you have difficult speakers to drive, you may want to audition carefully. Especially if you also have a turntable... you may be pushing the amp close to the edge."
A phono stage hardly draws any current so I'm not sure I get what they mean.
Yes I did not quite get the "Especially if you also have a turntable.." bit, I think that bit should be ignored.
My understanding is that the lower a speakers sensitivity, the more current it will draw. An amplifier needs to be able to deliver sufficient current to stop it running out of steam or causing distortion if pushed too hard.
So far as the turntable comment above is concerned I assume they are referring to the fact that a phono stage will not give out as much current as a Dac (some as high as 4v) and therefore the amp will struggle to supply volume into less sensitive speakers.
thanks for the replies guys.
unfortunately trialling first will not be an option as i am looking to save a bit by buying used.
Quite an interesting read :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_power
Pieoftheday
21-06-2023, 14:22
I Dunno if the pm7003 is very similar to the pm8003 but I had the pm8003 and whilst it had plenty of grunt the pre amp section was poor, it was easily bettered by using a beresford dac,caiman I think, this really opened up the marantz
AJSki2fly
21-06-2023, 15:17
thanks for the replies guys.
unfortunately trialling first will not be an option as i am looking to save a bit by buying used.
Nothing to stop to you trialling, :eyebrows:
I Dunno if the pm7003 is very similar to the pm8003 but I had the pm8003 and whilst it had plenty of grunt the pre amp section was poor, it was easily bettered by using a beresford dac,caiman I think, this really opened up the marantz
i found exactly the same.
i have been using either my Pro-ject DS2 digital or Project (not "Pro-ject") Ember headphone amp as a pre into the Marantz.
Nothing to stop to you trialling, :eyebrows:
i think most of the options i am looking at are no longer current models, unfortunately
Dynaudio EM10 are not a tough load, most amps should be fine with them, sensitivity is 86db so not high but not low enough to need hundreds of watts in typical situation.
Pretty decent speakers.
Think Rega are a bit overpriced myself. Okay made in UK accounts for that but if you're looking to get the most for your money not sure it's the best option.
Dynaudio EM10 are not a tough load, most amps should be fine with them, sensitivity is 86db so not high but not low enough to need hundreds of watts in typical situation.
Pretty decent speakers.
Think Rega are a bit overpriced myself. Okay made in UK accounts for that but if you're looking to get the most for your money not sure it's the best option.
i am open to others and any suggestions would be great
just seen a lot of discounted Arcam SA20 available, almost half original rrp.
must be a catch!!
i am open to others and any suggestions would be great
I'd keep the Marantz and the money. Unless there's really something about the Marantz you don't like.
I'd keep the Marantz and the money. Unless there's really something about the Marantz you don't like.
that is still a possibility.
though i have found using my Pro-ject Ds2 or headphone amp as a pre sounds better to my ears than using the Marantz pre section.
so i could just get a power amp i suppose.
typically with amps, integrated or separate, which section influences the sound signature most? pre or power section
Lawrence001
21-06-2023, 19:36
My understanding is that the lower a speakers sensitivity, the more current it will draw. An amplifier needs to be able to deliver sufficient current to stop it running out of steam or causing distortion if pushed too hard.
So far as the turntable comment above is concerned I assume they are referring to the fact that a phono stage will not give out as much current as a Dac (some as high as 4v) and therefore the amp will struggle to supply volume into less sensitive speakers.The Elicit has a built in phono stage though so it should already be matched with the correct sensitivity.
I think the author just doesn't know what he's talking about.
I think the author just doesn't know what he's talking about.
Well, you are absolutely right Lawrence. I just sit here and talk bollocks as it gives me a right laugh!:lol: I am sure you breathed a big sigh of relief when I wasn't around over the last 6 months or so.....oh you hadn't noticed as you were far too wrapped up in you own self importance and how knowledgable you are about all things audio.
Well I am hoping that those who have the power ban me for this heinous post as I really don't give a shit. This forum is now clearly not for me!
Lawrence001
21-06-2023, 20:27
Well, you are absolutely right Lawrence. I just sit here and talk bollocks as it gives me a right laugh![emoji38] I am sure you breathed a big sigh of relief when I wasn't around over the last 6 months or so.....oh you hadn't noticed as you were far too wrapped up in you own self importance and how knowledgable you are about all things audio.
Well I am hoping that those who have the power ban me for this heinous post as I really don't give a shit. This forum is now clearly not for me!I was talking about the author of the Elicit comment you were referring to not you!
Pigmy Pony
21-06-2023, 20:50
I was talking about the author of the Elicit comment you were referring to not you!
Bit harsh Rob. I got who Lawrence was referring to, and I'm pretty thick :) With 6k plus posts under your belt you should know by now we have more respect to fellow AoS'rs than that, and the few that haven't don't last long...
Time for one of these Rob :grouphug:
Lawrence001
21-06-2023, 20:57
Thanks Steve just a bit of confusion with all the quotes flying around no harm done I hope!
Lawrence001
21-06-2023, 21:00
And Rob made a fair point, I've had to turn the amp up to 12 o'clock with some phono stages when the CD is fine at 9.
I just don't think that's what the reviewer meant, or he didn't say it very well if it was.
And Rob made a fair point, I've had to turn the amp up to 12 o'clock with some phono stages when the CD is fine at 9.
I just don't think that's what the reviewer meant, or he didn't say it very well if it was.
The thing is that doesn't stress the amp at all. The only issue with low input voltage is if you have the volume pot all the way up and it's still not loud enough. Too much gain is more common issue IME.
Oh Dear! Sincere apologies to Lawrence and all others involved in this thread. It's not been a good time for me recently and I now feel much worse! I hadn't even been drinking....perhaps that's where I went wrong.
From now on I will make sure I read posts properly before replying.
Regards
Rob.
Oh Dear! Sincere apologies to Lawrence and all others involved in this thread. It's not been a good time for me recently and I now feel much worse! I hadn't even been drinking....perhaps that's where I went wrong.
From now on I will make sure I read posts properly before replying.
Regards
Rob.
dont worry rob.. you were trying to help, so whatever it was isnt a big deal...
Pigmy Pony
22-06-2023, 08:04
Oh Dear! Sincere apologies to Lawrence and all others involved in this thread. It's not been a good time for me recently and I now feel much worse! I hadn't even been drinking....perhaps that's where I went wrong.
From now on I will make sure I read posts properly before replying.
Regards
Rob.
:) No worries Rob, it's easy to miss context sometimes... glad you're back, your Bose comments at the bottom of your posts always make me smile :D
Pigmy Pony
22-06-2023, 08:20
The thing is that doesn't stress the amp at all. The only issue with low input voltage is if you have the volume pot all the way up and it's still not loud enough. Too much gain is more common issue IME.
In my set up there is a slight reduction in volume when playing vinyl compared to CD. But it is marginal, and not a problem. If it was enough to mean turning up the amp a lot, I would launch the phono stage and get another one. Because that would bug me forever.
In my set up there is a slight reduction in volume when playing vinyl compared to CD. But it is marginal, and not a problem. If it was enough to mean turning up the amp a lot, I would launch the phono stage and get another one. Because that would bug me forever.
thats norma-l steve..
Digital components can have different output voltage so can sound louder or quieter going into an amp compared to vinyl so I would say you would find it hard to get the same gain level?
Thanks for your kind words. My tail is now permanently between my legs!:sorry:
:your Bose comments at the bottom of your posts always make me smile :D
I think the vid is priceless.
Thanks for your kind words. My tail is now permanently between my legs!:sorry:
well get it oot agin lad:D
well get it oot agin lad:D
:eek:
since replacing my Marantz amp with the Rega Elex-r i have lost one feature that i really liked, which is the "direct power amp" input to accomodate an external pre.
i am looking for an otl tube headphone amp and i am considering one with a pre-amp output.
i would like to try this into my Rega Elex-r, which i believe has a "passive" pre-amp..... will this work?
read an artical somewhere stating that it "should", but i am not overly convinced.
Transient current response for low sensitivy speakers, doesn't have to jump start a lorry, but have enough stiffness in the PSU to cope with dynamic swings from say a single flute to a 120+ piece Orchestra going full bore of the rite of spring and recover quickly enough to be ready for the next timpony assault lol
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