Small and new

[ReggieB]

In my past life as a Hi-Fi nerd (on a budget) I've always hoped to get bigger and better speakers. However, recently I've been going the other way, and it has been a revelation.

It started after reading a couple of reviews in Hi-Fi World where they were comparing floor-standers to stand-mounted speakers. I thought my TDL RTL2s were getting long in the tooth and were next on that never ending cycle of Hi-Fi upgrades. So (as I've mentioned in another thread) I bought some cheap Heybrook HB1s and found I loved them. The TDL move to second speakers and are now rarely used.

Then I won a pair of Kef iQ30s. These arrived this week, and after a day or so running in, I've spent a couple of very happy evening listening to them. They are splendid.

It was 'Art of Noise' album 'Ambient Collection', that really highlighted what I was hearing with these speakers. There is a lot going on in the tracks on this album and a lot of different sounds overlaid upon one another. The iQ30s separate and clarify the sounds better than either the HB1s or the TDLs. I love them.

I'm now sure that if you are on a tight budget (£300-400 ish), you are better off getting the best stand mounted speakers you can afford rather than cheap floor standing speakers.

However, some of the things I hear with the Kefs now, I recall hearing with the TDLs when they were new, and I do wonder how much age is affecting the quality of the sound generated from the speakers. New bass units in the HB1s transformed them (I wonder what new tweeters would do for them).

I do wonder whether buying elderly (10yrs and older) second hand speakers is a good idea unless you are willing to replace the drive units (which isn't cheap). I don't think you can buy speakers for life. My experience suggests they have a life (10 yrs?).

So I contend, its better to buy speakers that you can afford to replace every few years, than blowing out on sensation speakers that you can't afford to replace when they get long in the tooth.

For me, I think that means a decent pair of mid-range stand mounted speakers every 8 to 10 year. What do others think?

[Jonboy]

Long in the tooth in my book means tired crossovers and not the drivers themselves, take Tannoys and Lowthers for instance if they were crap after 10 years then nobody would be paying 1K plus for the drivers alone, yes technology has moved on but not always for the best in the driver department, small boxes just don't cut it for me when trying to generate bass or even a nice sound in general, a good test is to tap the drive units cone or surround in its cabinet and listen to the response this will give you an idea of the sound achieved when played through a system.

I have heard 35 plus year old B&W DM2's sound fantastic with new componants fitted in the crossovers

[The Grand Wazoo]

We've got 5 pairs of speakers in this house - not one of them is less than 15 yrs old!

But I do think too many people go for floorstanders when a good stand mounter would be a better option for their particular application and within their budget.

[DSJR]

There was only one thing wrong with the original RTL2's and that was the apallingly bad bubbly finish of the vinyl-wrap cabinets. The sound was engaging, clear and the bass was fine I thought, as the bracing inside made for an inert cabinet. Replacing the electrolytic crossover caps and maybe increasing the tweeter resistor by half an Ohm to taste was all that was needed.

HB1's have a foam surround on the bass unit which can rot and there is a nasty response gap between drivers at the crossover point (classic flat-earth design). The tweeter can take off above this on most HB1's except the very earliest ones. We sold hundreds of pairs and they were excellent at pasting over cracks in cheaper systems, seeming to sound the same whatever was driving them.

I don't know the IQ30's, but remember the first IQ models having a good bass and midrange but a tweeter set too high in level (proved in a review) which could take your fillings out if wrongly matched up (the B&W 600 series 3's were similar if not worse as I recall).

Just my Sunday morning musings on products I once knew well. I was a huge fan of the RTL2 mk1 but not of the better finished Mk2 "SE" version, which had an AE109 balance of the tweeter set too low (easily corrected to be fair). I currently have a raging ear infection and can't listen to anything, so you can have the last laugh on me.

[Alex_UK]

I currently have a raging ear infection and can't listen to anything, so you can have the last laugh on me.

Sorry ho hear that Dave (no pun intended, for once!) Hope you're on the mend soon.

[aquapiranha]

My brother has these Kef's and he seems very pleased with them.

[Alex_UK]

As for speakers... I need to get out (in) more - I have heard very few other than floorstanders, which have always been my preferred route, probably as much to do with perceived value as much as anything. My main concern with a toddler is stability (she's had one of the AE's over once, luckily without damage to either! I now leave them parked in a safer position where she can't get round/behind, and move them out into the room when she's not around for proper listening) so stand mounts would be a no-no, though I have (half) thought about bracket mounted on the wall, which would probably look and sound wrong. But anyway, back to the original question...

I've still got in use my two previous pairs of speakers - some KEF floorstanders and Sony bookshelf, and both sound as good (bad!?) to me as they ever did, the KEFs are 14 years old and the Sonys nearer 20, but both are as good as new as far as I can tell.

I've been using the Sonys on the patio recently, and did experiment with them in my main system for a laugh - to be honest I much preferred the bigger sound and better bass of the floorstanders, but then the Sonys were real budget items (£100 or so then, £150 now?) so not a fair comparison. I do think you need a decent size room for floorstanders though, and a lot of people make the mistake of shoe-horning them in when they will just overpower the space.

Maybe stand mounters and a sub is a good compromise in a lot of cases, like those lovely little active speakers someone on here is very fond of - can't remember who it is, Marco I think maybe? :eyebrows:

[Macca]

Well made driver units should last a lifetime if not mistreated - and they are not usually expensive to replace (especially in a 'speaker retailing at £400) - years ago a friend of mine asked the manufacturer for a price on a bass driver to replace one his kid had poked in - no problem - £15.00 plus delivery -
He had bought the speakers new for £800... that (and time on my hands) was what got me into building DIY 'speakers.

Availabilty of replacements would be more than likely the biggest problem.

Comparing my Celestion A2 (8'' bass/mid plus 8'' bass driver) to the Classic SN10 (1 x 8'' Bass/mid) I use on the Home Cinema and the biggest difference is the loss of a number of octaves of bass depth - like listening to the Celestions with the bass driver disconnected.

Now I know some on here are of the opinion that 'your brain fills in the missing bass' - well mine doesn't, especially as I have large room to drive. It's horses for courses, naturally, what isn't in hi-fi, but a good, small 'speaker will never be a satisfactory substiture for a good, big 'speaker. Thats my $0.02. :)

[ReggieB]

I have been very happy with my RTL2s since I bought them with one of my first pay-packets from my first job after leaving university in the mid-nineties. They are the mark ones. To be honest, I didn't get upgrade from them because I thought there was anything particularly wrong with them, but rather because I'd fairly recently upgraded my other equipment and was wondering what to change next. I have the bug after all, and sometimes just can't leave well alone :)

Perhaps an indication of how much I like the RTL2s is that I am finding it very difficult to get rid of them. So they are sitting in the corner of my study doing nothing. I really should get rid of them, but I know I'll only get about £80 and I'm loathed to get rid of them when I think they are worth more than that.

It is only when I compared them to speakers with new drives that I really noticed the difference. Perhaps my memory is faulty, but I think the RTL2s when they were new had the detail I hear in the Kefs. The thing is, I think they've slowly got less sharp over the years, but so slowly I haven't noticed. I've just got used to them not being so sharp.

So I do wonder if people with older speakers who say they are great, would be very surprised if they heard them with new drive units.

[Ali Tait]

I'd agree with Jon,it's most likely the crossovers rather than the drivers.

[Jonboy]

I'd agree with Jon,it's most likely the crossovers rather than the drivers.

Thanks Ali, i have just had to re-read what i had written not to bad for a 10 pint plus rambling at 1.30 in the morning, i forget what i have said and where :doh:

To add to the DM 2s' these were wall mounted as well and sounded bloody good

[Techno Commander]

There isnt really anything to go wrong with cabinets. Decent drivers will last better than cheaper ones, unless they have been given a hard life. Crossovers are the most likely candidate for failure.

[Reid Malenfant]

<snip> Crossovers are the most likely candidate for failure.
Not exactly failure, more of components going out of tolerance due to ageing. Forget the inductors unless they happen to be ferrite or iron cored & one or more have slipped (not likely).

What is more than likely is that the standard capacitors used will be bipolar electrolytics & these do age & go out of tolerance. Strangely enough they do it quite gradually to :eyebrows:

If the drivers are fully functional i'd suggest you fit new caps in the crossovers & bring the things back to life as you remember them. I feel pretty sure you'll be shocked at the difference. If you can afford to fit decent film caps instead of bipolar electrolytics get ready for one of those jaw dropping moments ;)

[Ali Tait]

Yep I'd second that.

[Jonboy]

Hi Ali,

on another note how are your new caps in your dac doing, i have just had Jenson paper in oils fitted in one of mine, still trying to persuade Alfie to take the plunge with his

[DSJR]

The RTL2's had simple crossovers with only a couple of electrolytic caps, two (?) resistors and a coil on the bass unit. The tweeter had a 5.8or 6.3uF cap with a 1 Ohm resistor in series IIRC and this allowed a slight treble rise that didn't detach from the speaker when you stood up, unlike most other passive speakers which notch out badly. The designer of the fundamental product (Clive Gibson) suggested I could fit 4.7 uF polyprop caps to the tweeter crossover instead. I didn't like it as much, but you may do (levels out a 1.2KHz discrepancy and should give lower treble distortion as the tweeter is brought in slightly later).

In my experience of many speakers, and ESPECIALLY with some original Mission 770's, tweeters can "go down" in level over years of thrashing, the ferro-fluid can either migrate or dry out (from memory) and this can change the perceived balance. I'm more inclined to respectfully suggest in this instance that the KEF's are razor sharp and you are mistaking this for "deeeeeeeeetail..." The RTL2's will be lively, but not as "wiry" IMO.

Bearing in mind the modest sum you'd get for the RTL2's, why not get some caps from HiFi Collective, WD once back in business or even Maplin, who do some basic polyprops. Do one speaker at a time and confirm you haven't totally screwed the tonal balance by any changes you've made.

[ReggieB]

Bearing in mind the modest sum you'd get for the RTL2's, why not get some caps from HiFi Collective, WD once back in business or even Maplin, who do some basic polyprops. Do one speaker at a time and confirm you haven't totally screwed the tonal balance by any changes you've made.

That is tempting.

[dim_span]

Long in the tooth in my book means tired crossovers and not the drivers themselves, take Tannoys and Lowthers for instance if they were crap after 10 years then nobody would be paying 1K plus for the drivers alone, yes technology has moved on but not always for the best in the driver department, small boxes just don't cut it for me when trying to generate bass or even a nice sound in general, a good test is to tap the drive units cone or surround in its cabinet and listen to the response this will give you an idea of the sound achieved when played through a system.

I have heard 35 plus year old B&W DM2's sound fantastic with new componants fitted in the crossovers

My main speakers are B&W DM2 (the 1st version hand built transmissions) ... these have never been modified and are in the original condition with no mods (same tweeters and supertweeters as the old Spendor BC1 but much better at bass as they are tdesign .... you 'feel' the bass) ... I have hover had the cabinets french polished

I contacted Wembley Speakers in London and was told that if they work well, don't 'fiddle' so have left them as they are

I currently have them connected to an old Pioneer SA-9800 amp (100 watts @ 8 Ohms) .... sound superb

however, I have had a Musical Fidelity A5 integrated for a weekend (250 watts @ 8 ohms) .... with this more powerfull amp, they sing!

and ..... these DM2's still sell for under £100 on ebay (paid £53 for mine) ...

[DSJR]

If you have speakers with film caps fitted, then they should last well over the decades and apparently crossovers like those in the Yamaha NS1000's actually self-heal if damaged. However, electrolytics will go off but usually over twenty or more years. Replacing the RTL2 caps will definitlely improve things and the 4.7uF mod to the tweeter crossover should reduce or remove any "smear" at the crossover point.

[Ali Tait]

Hi Ali,

on another note how are your new caps in your dac doing, i have just had Jenson paper in oils fitted in one of mine, still trying to persuade Alfie to take the plunge with his

Hi Jon,
Sorry missed this.I'm very pleased with them.They are not cheap but worth it IMO.Perhaps a little warmer than the SCR's,with seemingly deeper bass,though no less detailed.No bad thing with digital methinks!

[Ali Tait]

BTW,I've been telling Alfie the same thing!