View Full Version : recapping Sony SS-G4 speakers
I am the happy owner of Sony SS-G4 speakers but after listening to my previous Royd Minstrel which have a wonderful imaging but not the wide sound range of the Sony, I was wondering if I should look into recapping the Sony crossover.... Anyone with experience doing so and whether that can have the desired effect?
I looked inside the speakers and it's possible that it has already been done, as the caps look quite modern to me. There are 3 or 4 of them that I captured on the pics linked here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mkd22ufr04nl0mf/IMG20230510173456.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g83sm1njk040ntf/IMG20230510173526.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rb1oa8e34cf4ugk/IMG20230510173540.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/71wyrodi8ifogd1/IMG20230510173610.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ut4bkjqonm9t0op/IMG20230510173624.jpg?dl=0
Firebottle
17-05-2023, 10:37
How old are the speakers?
It looks unlikely that they have been recapped as the original glue securing the components appears undisturbed.
Yes i noticed that too about the glue... They were probably made in 1981-1982, I've had them for a couple of years only. I can read in some posts that the capacitors can be tested, but I am not sure how.
How old are the speakers?
It looks unlikely that they have been recapped as the original glue securing the components appears undisturbed.
Yes look originals. You can test with a meter but out of circuit. If they don't sound dreadful and no hums etc then it may be just the way they are
If the speakers don't sound dull I'd leave them.
Golden age Sony they didn't skimp back then.
Definitely not dull :)
I have read others always recapping vintage speakers as a first step regardless of the sound. The caps look clean and fine to me though, I will just take some measurement to be sure
If the speakers don't sound dull I'd leave them.
Golden age Sony they didn't skimp back then.
is the orange rectangle shaped component on the picture a capacitor too?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ut4bkjqonm9t0op/IMG20230510173624.jpg?dl=0
Definitely not dull :)
I have read others always recapping vintage speakers as a first step regardless of the sound. The caps look clean and fine to me though, I will just take some measurement to be sure
yeah I'm not really sure why people do that other than they have the time and the inclination. If they measure fine and sound fine why bother?
I know some think some caps sound better than others, I'm not so sure about that. Regardless, the speakers are classics and should be kept original IMO - so if it were me I would only mess with them if they really need it.
Beobloke
17-05-2023, 20:29
They’re good quality Nichicon caps and look to be fine with no obvious signs of deterioration.
Just enjoy the speakers!
Hi Slim, recapping speakers, especially ones like yours that are 40+ years old will bring a definite improvement. Even if the caps are still in spec. replacing them with modern same value units will lift the performance.
There is more though that can be done than just the caps. Alan (Firebottle) mentioined the adhesive used to mount the components. If you replace anything use a mastic or silicone to mount them which will be better than the original hard goo used. The ubiquitous ceramic resistors should also be replaced while you are at it. Best bet here performance and pricewise are Mills but always use their 12W units not the 5W.
I would also replace the wiring and when doing this avoid any push-on connectors and solder everything. I recommend solid OCC Cu. 24/22AWG for tweeter, 18/16AWG for midrange and 14/12AWG for woofer.:) If you use solid, which to me sounds better than stranded, you will need to anchor the wire to something firm to prevent vibration from causing fatigue and possible failure. You can use cable tie anchors glued to the speaker magnet or staple the wire to the box or use silicone. The wire used makes a noticeable difference, in a good way :)
Upgrading a 3-way XO is more expensive because the lower XO point from woofer requires a fairly large cap. Will it be worth the expense and effort? Only you can decide, the cost will probably be more than the speakers are worth, however, a new bipolar cap for mid/woofer circuit would save money but use film caps for all others.
Will you notice an improvement? Most definitely. I have modded lots of speakers and the owners have always been impressed and enjoyed the 'new' sound.
There is no "definite" about it.
Hi Grant, to me it is a definite improvement. There is nothing vague, nebulous or doubtful about what I'm hearing. Have you ever heard a before and after comparison when the XO is modified with the components I mentioned as I outlined above?
From your response to me, I think not.
I get these results even from modern speakers because if the manufacturer used the components I use it would be prohibitively expensive, but for just a pair of speakers it is worth doing.
For a pair of speakers over 40 years old the results will be immediately obvious.
And before someone asks how a capacitor or other component can 'improve' the sound, it can't! The better quality wire, caps etc.and correct orientation of the inductors help because of less editorialising and less injection of noise. Under those conditions, dynamics, details and overall musicality is the name of the game.
if electrolytic caps have drifted sufficiently from their rated values then there may be some benefit but replacing perfectly good caps with more expensive ones as though this will automatically improve sound quality is an extremely debatable subject and by no means set in stone.
Here's a measured comparison of the output from a set of speakers with the following capacitors substituted for stock:
Jantzen Audio Silver Z-cap 800V (as good as new, polypropylene film, see below for detailed description) - The capacity is 4.68µF
Ero MKC 160V (polycarbonate capacitor film, high age) - The capacity is 4.67µF
MD-MKP 400V (Date of manufacture 05.97, manufacturer is unknown to me) - The capacity is 4.67µF (with parallel 0.56µF Jantzen Audio MKP to reach the target capacity)
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/capacitor-upgrade-in-crossover-is-it-audible.12287/
As you can see there is no appreciable difference (less than 0.03dB) in the output of the loudspeaker.
I have some Akai speakers here that are 50 years old the electrolytics were still in tolerance when tested a couple of years ago.
Sometimes it may be worth doing and on some rubbish speakers its good practice since nothing can make them worse but with the o/p's Sony speakers - which are highly capable but just not rated since they are from back when Japanese kit was frowned on and people thought Epos ES14 or Linn Kan were cutting edge - I really would leave them alone unless they sound obviously 'off'
Hi Grant, to me it is a definite improvement. There is nothing vague, nebulous or doubtful about what I'm hearing. Have you ever heard a before and after comparison when the XO is modified with the components I mentioned as I outlined above?
From your response to me, I think not.
I get these results even from modern speakers because if the manufacturer used the components I use it would be prohibitively expensive, but for just a pair of speakers it is worth doing.
For a pair of speakers over 40 years old the results will be immediately obvious.
And before someone asks how a capacitor or other component can 'improve' the sound, it can't! The better quality wire, caps etc.and correct orientation of the inductors help because of less editorialising and less injection of noise. Under those conditions, dynamics, details and overall musicality is the name of the game.
..as this is a subjective site you can say that as long as you add that its your opinion, not that its fact because you say so.
...and to answer your question, yes i have; if caps are decent quality and are ok then i wouldn't think anyone will notice much if any improvement. ..although you may think you do, which is fair enough but don't say its a fact.
You in fact did not answer the question which is : "Have you ever heard a before and after comparison when the XO is modified with the components I mentioned as I outlined above?"
Meaning using OCC Cu. better resistors, better capacitors and eliminating any push-on connectors made out of brass.
===========================================
Regarding Amir at ASR, that is a pretty pointless exercise. 0.03dB is insignificant and is not what I'm talking about. Did he mention listening to the difference? No, because that's not what he does as he claims he can tell what an amp or anything sounds like by looking at measurements.
I'm only interested in how it sounds. Take 2 caps that are the same value, one an MKP cheapie and the other a paper in oil and send a sine wave through them and check the O'scope or use ASR's expensive analyser and the waves will be, to all intents and purposes exactly the same. Do you think there might be a difference in sound when used in an amp or XO ??? I do.
You in fact did not answer the question which is : "Have you ever heard a before and after comparison when the XO is modified with the components I mentioned as I outlined above?"
Meaning using OCC Cu. better resistors, better capacitors and eliminating any push-on connectors made out of brass.
===========================================
Regarding Amir at ASR, that is a pretty pointless exercise. 0.03dB is insignificant and is not what I'm talking about. Did he mention listening to the difference? No, because that's not what he does as he claims he can tell what an amp or anything sounds like by looking at measurements.
I'm only interested in how it sounds. Take 2 caps that are the same value, one an MKP cheapie and the other a paper in oil and send a sine wave through them and check the O'scope or use ASR's expensive analyser and the waves will be, to all intents and purposes exactly the same. Do you think there might be a difference in sound when used in an amp or XO ??? I do.
I can't speak for Grant but when I was making speakers back in the early 90s I did experiment with using expensive caps and inductors in place of cheap ones. Yes I did hear differences, but on more than one occasion I thought the cheaper component was sounding better!
The problem really is that it takes so long to do the swap any memory of the subtle detail changes I assume we are talking about is lost. We think we recall but we don't.
That experiment I linked to was not done by Amir it was done by a member. I agree a controlled listening test would provide useful evidence one way or the other,
Beobloke
22-05-2023, 11:52
Have you ever heard a before and after comparison when the XO is modified with the components I mentioned as I outlined above?
From your response to me, I think not.
A work colleague of mine had some KEF Reference 4s and he took it into his head that they needed re-capping. I tried to talk him out of it as I knew the sort of components they used, but he wouldn't be dissuaded and went ahead and spent nearly £300 on components.
So, job done, he sat back to listen to his handiwork and told me how he nearly ended up in tears as his beautiful speakers sounded lacklustre, dull and completely disjointed. He fiddled with them for weeks but when he finally admitted he still had all the original components he'd removed, i lost patience and basically told him to "put the bloody things back in!".
He did in the end, and his lovely speakers were back.
The moral of the story is, firstly, don't assume that a blanket capacitor change will make an "improvement" and, secondly, loudspeaker designers do occasionally know what they're doing. Judicious re-capping once you'd proved things have gone adrift is highly beneficial. Blanket complete re-capping can cause more problems than it solves.
Pigmy Pony
22-05-2023, 13:55
Well said Adam. If it ain't broke...
Perhaps he shouldn't have used blanket capacitors, known to be warm and woolly.
I never said loudspeaker designers don't know what they're doing, though some of them appear that way. Apart from the flagship speakers, they all design to a budget to be competitive.
It is not the same stretch for an individual to use premium parts for a single pair but if producing 500 pairs then that is a different story.
Lawrence001
23-05-2023, 17:11
And before someone asks how a capacitor or other component can 'improve' the sound, it can't! The better quality wire, caps etc.and correct orientation of the inductors help because of less editorialising and less injection of noise. Under those conditions, dynamics, details and overall musicality is the name of the game.
I think a capacitor can improve the sound. Take them out of the tweeter crossover and you'll soon find it sounded better with them in. (Although I'm not sure it will sound any better than it did without them when you put them back in.)
The tweeter won't last long without one, that's for sure.
I did do a set of speakers for a bloke who was always blowing tweeters with electronic music. Used Motorola piezo-electric horn loaded jobbies. You can't blow them.
Still got a spare set lying around. People don't rate them but they were fine for the sort of music he listened to.
Lawrence001
23-05-2023, 17:30
The tweeter won't last long without one, that's for sure.
I did do a set of speakers for a bloke who was always blowing tweeters with electronic music. Used Motorola piezo-electric horn loaded jobbies. You can't blow them.
Still got a spare set lying around. People don't rate them but they were fine for the sort of music he listened to.Epos always said their speakers sounded better as they only had one cap on the tweeter. So imagine how good your mate's must have been with no caps.
Epos always said their speakers sounded better as they only had one cap on the tweeter. So imagine how good your mate's must have been with no caps.
They actually had no crossover at all. I specified an inductor (air cored job from Falcon - Sailor take note!) to roll off the bass driver but they took ages to be delivered and in the meantime he took the speakers anyway.
When they finally turned up I offered to go over there and retro-fit them but he wasn't having any of it, said he liked the sound as it was. Still got those inductors too. Never going to use them.
walpurgis
23-05-2023, 18:53
Moving coil tweeters tend not to have great power handling capability, even ferrofluid equipped items, so the protection a cap/filter provides is a good idea. Having a low crossover point or even not using a capacitor is potentially attractive, but usually not really workable.
There are exceptions that can allow low crossover points, like the use of BMR units and horn loaded compression drivers or even multiples of conventional tweeters in series-parallel arrangements (depending on driver resonance and lower roll-off). These options tend to be less common.
(always fancied trying a set of Manger drivers, despite the variable opinions expressed)
I bought a pair of the SS-G1’s a while ago, was quite disappointed at the build quality, really light cabinets considering the size of them. Sounded okay though.
The 10” woofer has an unusually small magnet too.
What’s everyone’s opinions on the front baffle raised black grid? Snake oil by Sony? Haven’t seen any other company implement this idea.
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