Audio equipment Astronomical pricing.

[Jimbo]

I had a quick look at the Axpona HIFI show that has just taken place in North America which I think is the biggest USA show of the year although they do have many more to come across the states.

What struck me more than usual was the absolutely astronomical prices of the great on display. Now is this just a fashion show where companies put out their latest and greatest so cost is not an issue or is this really what they think the majority of folk would be happy to pay for. I live in the real world and have bought some expensive gear over the years but the prices of much of the equipment in the show reports was eye watering. I am sure there can only be a very tiny minority of folk who can actually afford or even buy this gear surely. Wandering around many of the forums on the net I don't see many folk talking about purchasing any of this stuff.

Maybe I live in an alternative universe where the hifi I look at all costs under say £5000 but the starting price for a lot of the gear at Axpona looked to be around £10000 with products priced at £20000, £30000, £100000 and £100000000000000000!!!!!

Can someone explain to me what is going on with products and gear priced at this level. Just to make my point look at this show report with products priced in the report.

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/the-2023-axpona-show-andre-jennings-on-analog-and-digital-sources/

This is just one show report covering a very small amount of gear. Looking at dozens of other show reports and the price of the gear is very similar.

[Lawrence001]

I suspect that's just the choice of the reviewers, is absolute sounds a high end magazine? If you go to the end they do mention a best system for the money.

If you look at the exhibitors list there are some "normal" ones like Acoustic Energy.

https://axpona.com/exhibitors/

[Jimbo]

There is gear at the show at reasonable prices but many of the reports I have seen seem to concentrate only on the high end priced equipment. There maybe the odd footnote which groups some of the low priced stuff into the "budget" category but the majority of reports would have you believe most of the gear was at unobtainium prices.

I suppose its like everything now reviewers seem to think folk will only be impressed with looking at top end gear.?

[Macca]

I suspect that given the cost of exhibiting it's not worth the while for the people selling at the lower end of the market.

[Barry]

Everything is going up in price. What you spend your money on depends upon your interests. With some it might be sport, or sailing, driving, travel, or drinking fine wine' or even audio.

The typical price of an electric car is predicted to approach £100K.

When it comes to audio, many companies who in the past have priced their goods sensibly; reflecting the quality and care taken with the manufacturer are now aspiring to 'Veblen' status. I could name names, but that would be unfair to those that act as distributors; but IMO there is at least one UK company.

For my part, over the fifty years I have been interested in music and the best means by which to enjoy it - I have spent around £85K on equipment alone.

[Jimbo]

It certainly doesn't encourage young people to get into the game but there again they are the ones buying the £3000 headphones and associated gear?

I think there is probably some more "moderately" priced gear tucked away somewhere at these shows and I am sure the Munich show has a wider variety of reasonably priced stuff. My over all impression is that prices have constantly spiralled upwards in the last 10 years and the new normal is a £50000-£100000 priced system?

I suppose if I added all the gear I have ever bought together I may get to about £50000 but that is over 40 years!

[Macca]

Got to allow for inflation. A grand 20 years ago is two grand now.

I agree with Barry that over last twenty years or so there's a whole Veblen market opened up in hi-fi with lots of equipment in the £10K to over £100K area.

Maybe in the case of loudspeakers you're getting something for your money - a good, big loudspeaker is never going to be cheap. But for everything else you're just paying for a fancy case and a good back story. You can spend five grand on a fuse now. If people weren't buying it they wouldn't be making it.

On the plus side there's good new equipment for around a grand or less new due to cheap labour in the far east, and the used market is now huge and, thanks to the internet, easy to access. I don't find it hard to ignore the crazy money stuff.

[Jimbo]

I would love to put a "budget" system together and compare it against a megabucks system just to see/hear where your money goes.

Funnily enough I have done this a fair few times;)

[walpurgis]

There have always been costly 'trinkets' for the rich. The rest of us live in the real world and cut our cloth accordingly.

[Jimbo]

There have always been costly 'trinkets' for the rich. The rest of us live in the real world and cut our cloth accordingly.

Very true.

[walpurgis]

I haven't done the rounds of audio shows or pricey Hi-Fi shops for well over twenty years, but I remember big expensive 'statement product' speakers from Avalon and Wilson and the like leaving me unimpressed. I dare say exotica is in a higher pricing realm these days.

[mayebaza]

The exchange rate of the pound to the dollar has fallen by more than 50% over the last decade. At $2.50 to the £1 rather than $1.24, things would look a lot different. [emoji848]

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[Macca]

I would love to put a "budget" system together and compare it against a megabucks system just to see/hear where your money goes.

Funnily enough I have done this a fair few times;)

My current set up owes me only a little over £2K (although amps and speakers were bought used) and I rarely hear anything that's substantially better at the shows.

If it were all new and allowing for inflation it would be over £15K though so I suppose not a good comparison.

Real value for money is in the secondary market IMO. I mean VAT is twenty percent, that's a lot of bunce once you get into five figure pricing.

[Jimbo]

My current set up owes me only a little over £2K (although amps and speakers were bought used) and I rarely hear anything that's substantially better at the shows.

If it were all new and allowing for inflation it would be over £15K though so I suppose not a good comparison.

Real value for money is in the secondary market IMO. I mean VAT is twenty percent, that's a lot of bunce once you get into five figure pricing.

I expect if you add up all the gear you have stashed away and had over the years it would be a fair figure!?

[Macca]

I expect if you add up all the gear you have stashed away and had over the years it would be a fair figure!?

Stop it I don't want to think about it!

I have bought quite a lot for various reasons (wanted it back in the day and could not afford it, some bought out of curiosity (loudspeakers, mainly). Or I just liked the look of it.

if it all got stolen tomorrow I'd just put together one system to replace it and I would not be spending tens of thousands on it as there's just no need.

[Pigmy Pony]

I expect if you add up all the gear you have stashed away and had over the years it would be a fair figure!?

Probably stepping over £5k worth of gear just to get to the bog :D

[Macca]

Probably stepping over £5k worth of gear just to get to the bog :D

was going to say it's not that bad but had a quick count up and there's about ten grand's worth at realistic second hand prices sat in the living room.

I've lost track of what's upstairs but I don't think it's that much more.

Some pay that for a set of speaker cables so that makes it okay.

[Pigmy Pony]

Some pay that for a set of speaker cables so that makes it okay.

True, but nobody you'd want to be cornered by at a party ;)

[hifi_dave]

was going to say it's not that bad but had a quick count up and there's about ten grand's worth at realistic second hand prices sat in the living room.

I've lost track of what's upstairs but I don't think it's that much more.

Some pay that for a set of speaker cables so that makes it okay.

Exactly so. £10K gets you a decent MC cartridge.

I've sold 'high end' since the early 90s but now find that my 'high end' range could be classed as mid price now. The mags have lost all sense when it comes to pricing. Look inside an amp, DAC, streamer, CD player or whatever and see the quantity and quality of components. £50K for a couple of x'mers and a mug full of components. There's an awful lot of profit for the manufacturers and the rest of the supply chain. In reality, very little of this stuff sells, it's the figurehead to promote the more realistic priced units.

Not all companies are rip-off merchants, Rega for instance make great value gear and provide service second to none but you wouldn't know they even exist if you read the comics.

[Pigmy Pony]

Exactly so. £10K gets you a decent MC cartridge.

I've sold 'high end' since the early 90s but now find that my 'high end' range could be classed as mid price now. The mags have lost all sense when it comes to pricing. Look inside an amp, DAC, streamer, CD player or whatever and see the quantity and quality of components. £50K for a couple of x'mers and a mug full of components. There's an awful lot of profit for the manufacturers and the rest of the supply chain. In reality, very little of this stuff sells, it's the figurehead to promote the more realistic priced units.

Not all companies are rip-off merchants, Rega for instance make great value gear and provide service second to none but you wouldn't know they even exist if you read the comics.

It's as if these manufacturers only make this "high end" gear so that they can follow it with cheaper(ish) stuff that uses trickle-down from them, and this is where they do their business and make money.

[Barry]

Thinking about my post, I was probably being a bit disingenuous (or even commiting the far greater sin of being a 'willy waver'). Virtually all of my equipment is now no longer made (the only exceptions being a couple of cartridges), so the figures I quoted was based on the prices one would have to pay today for used samples. Furthermore, I still have most of the gear I bought - enough for five systems, which distorts the figure of £85K quoted.

But more importantly, it is still about double the value of my music collection: which can't be right, can it. :scratch:

[Jimbo]

But we have all been down the well trodden path buying equipment over the years trying to reach audio nirvana and that adds up?

[Enossification]

Such pricing could do a lot of damage to the industry. Any would be hi-fi fans could so easily be put off or maybe even inspired. Who knows ? Back in my day of working for a franchise things were much more manageable thankfully.

[Jimbo]

Looking at the recent price of Vinyl they are in danger of killing that off too!

[Macca]

what would be considered reasonable pricing for top end performance?

if you take, say. a power amp, you've got cost of components and the case. Cost of assembly. Overheads, your margin, packaging, shipping, distributor margin, dealer margin and VAT

Even selling direct and cut out the dealer and distributor you've got a lot of costs there. Pus you then have to allow for returns and warranty claims. Advertising, and the expense of schmoozing the hi-fi journalists and maybe Youtube influencers.

Even assuming you put it in the cheapest case and use a power supply that couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding your sale price has still got to be pretty high if you want to make any money at all.

[mayebaza]

As a general rule, with high end products 60 - 80% of costs goes on presentation. Fancy custom packaging is very expensive to produce etc.

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[Mikeandvan]

It's a truism that after the first few thousand quid spent on any hifi product the returns for the customer in terms of % performance are down to single figures. The skies the limit.

[Pigmy Pony]

At some point the listening room becomes the biggest influence on the final sound.

If I had say £60k to spend on speakers, I would instead get some £10k jobbies and build a dedicated listening room with no WAF constraints on room treatments. Gonna sound better than uber-speakers in a crappy oddly-shaped living room. £50k would buy a lot of listening room.

[struth]

Go headphones and save the trouble [emoji16]

[Pigmy Pony]

Go headphones and save the trouble [emoji16]

I get boomy bass with headphones, because the inside of my head is an odd shape.

[Jimbo]

I get boomy bass with headphones, because the inside of my head is an odd shape.

How can you see the shape of the inside of your head?:scratch:

[Pigmy Pony]

How can you see the shape of the inside of your head?:scratch:

Spent a lot of time in there in my miss-spent youth :):):):gig: