View Full Version : The importance of being a clock .
I presume using an LPS on the Mutec means it operates with less "noise" being thrown into the device and you are using the Mutec to re clock the signal before the DAC and therefore lower the possibility of jitter? Just asking to get my head round what is going on.
The timing issues of packets of digital files being transferred from A-B I understand is the main cause of jitter which can also be further upset by RFI and other electrical noise? It is also interesting that other factors also come into play such as correct impedance connectors and cables which I also I understand affect jitter.
With so many issues at play its a wonder we hear anything that sounds like music at all.:lol:
Just one more area to consider after accepting the issues that affect digital playback and jitter is that each one of the problems that contribute to jitter ( cables, clocks, connectors , electrical noise etc ) also affects jitter at different frequencies which means that there are many permutations of the type of jitter that is heard which is also dependent on the person hearing it and how sensitive they are to that particular spectrum, if at all?:)
Firebottle
28-03-2023, 16:18
An alternative to a GPS referenced clock is to use an OCXO, an oven controlled crystal oscillator, lower cost but still provides a real uplift to the precision of the soundstage.
I am using one with my Mutec now, with matched impedances on the clock line input.
no digital system will have audible jitter unless it is badly broken. Regrettably this is one of those things that started as a sales tactic many years ago and has since passed into folklore.
Consider that vinyl playback will have several orders of magnitude more jitter than a cheap DVD player. Not only is it baked into the format in the cutting process but more is added on playback. Even with the very best turntables. Do we hear it?
Firebottle
28-03-2023, 18:08
Can you define 'audible jitter' Martin?
What I have found with all the approaches that supposedly reduce jitter is that the soundstage/image gains clarity and precision of instrument placement.
I know i am not imagining this as it has been demonstrated to a number of others who also hear the differences.
Although there are claims that Jitter can be measured which I am not disputing, its audible effects are very subjective. If you suppose it exists then its manifestation will be experienced differently by any individual. The interesting thing is what folk claim to hear when jitter is removed or reduced. This is highly subjective as it is frequency dependant, very much like our hearing which is very variable.
Get a room full of people and then introduce jitter 'busting' devices/methods one by one and get folk to write down what they hear at each stage/level and I am sure it will make for a very amusing read.
Of course jitter does help unload your wallet as you chase the digital rainbow which always seems to end up with a comparison to analogue.:rolleyes:
Can you define 'audible jitter' Martin?
What I have found with all the approaches that supposedly reduce jitter is that the soundstage/image gains clarity and precision of instrument placement.
I know i am not imagining this as it has been demonstrated to a number of others who also hear the differences.
I agree with your perception of jitter reduction there Alan. Soundstage and imaging do improve with better clocking. I also think acoustic space in the recording sounds better however I am not sure about tonality. Digital still sounds err digital.:)
Can you define 'audible jitter' Martin?
What I have found with all the approaches that supposedly reduce jitter is that the soundstage/image gains clarity and precision of instrument placement.
I know i am not imagining this as it has been demonstrated to a number of others who also hear the differences.
A cassette tape playing on a cheap tape deck - that has audible jitter. Most of us will recall what that sounds like.
You are perceiving differences but jumping to the wrong conclusion as to why.
Funny to think cassette tape and jitter now. Many young folk probably don't know it even existed - tape that is!
Maybe there is something technical going on, who knows? I'm just saying that if we must have a technical reason (and I don't think we do), lower jitter is not going to be it.
Article here by someone who knows what he's talking about and doesn't have a vested interest:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/search?q=jitter
ive one of these that i used on my usb dacs successfully... https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07DLMZP5Y/ref=sspa_dk_detail_3?pd_rd_i=B07FM9DJP8&pd_rd_w=CHWYv&content-id=amzn1.sym.b44870ef-eda5-46ae-b955-882ca349c1fe&pf_rd_p=b44870ef-eda5-46ae-b955-882ca349c1fe&pf_rd_r=SA32RXQS5B0ME7F3JF3V&pd_rd_wg=HK0gp&pd_rd_r=962b8a53-213d-41b0-8ab8-650d282d6cfa&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWM&smid=AUDZDCNEQ3WOO&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzR09OREMyWVZVRjY2J mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMTg5MDUwMTlFMENFN0hSRjg0UCZlbmN yeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMzk0NTc0V1BONTZLWjhFRzJNJndpZGdld E5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsX3RoZW1hdGljJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1J lZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1
Maybe there is something technical going on, who knows? I'm just saying that if we must have a technical reason (and I don't think we do), lower jitter is not going to be it.
Article here by someone who knows what he's talking about and doesn't have a vested interest:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/search?q=jitter
Sadly this is not someone who knows much about anything connected to music and I would not trust anything he says or measures . I make it perfectly clear this is a personal and my own judgement . This person has been found to be corrupt and favouring certain commercial companies not a man to be trusted . If this is the competition then I would ask please close this thread down and delete it I will not be adding anything further on this issue .
Who knows what is occurring with external clocks working in conjunction with internal clocks…a lot of the decriers don’t even realise that a number of DACs run a PLL between internal and and external clocks…many think the internal clock is disabled…this is not the case.
My experience with an external clock is that there’s can be a considerable uplift in SQ, some of which is around soundstage, there are other areas too.
An important factor is the cable, a poor cable will wreck the clock signal…I’m pretty darned ambivalent about cables generally but in the case of an external clock the type cable and its connectors are significant. This isn’t too surprising and carrying something like a 10MHz signal is going to need good impedance matching and shielding.
Whatever the LB Clock adds to my digital chain of it is Jitter or something else I do not know but it works . As for emptying my wallet yes I did have to pay for it around £200 all told when you add the impedance fix in . Not cheap I suppose but compared to a full master clock at £4000 in a nice case I would say good value . @Firebottle has the skills to make his own very accurate OXCO based clock and the whole thing in his case was probably less than £60 all once he puts it in a case . Again not really braking the bank . Strange aside on this dCS advise that upsampling in even multiples is better than just using the highest figure you can achieve . I used the 24/192 setting for everything and when I was advised of this tried it and hastily at that time could not hear any difference so left it set that way . Now with the Delius slaved to the Purcell the pair change over automatically against the input . I started to notice that if I had been listening to a radio stream at 48Hz and then it switched to 44.1Hz for flac it did not sound as good as it should . So I changed the sample rate to 176.6Hz for Flac and the sound snapped back in to focus the same when any hires files are played changing to sample rate 24/192Hz sounds best . There is not much in this but enough to make me want get up and change it each time there is a switch on frequency . Before the use of the clock this was never noticeable now it is . If I take the clock out of circuit then it again becomes the same as before and no change for any change . So not sure what difference the external clock makes but it is there and it does work 😄
To my understanding reclocking the data packages before they get to the DAC has definite advantages as long as the clock is obviously more accurate than the one in the DAC. I know some folk believe this does not make a difference but if you are presenting the DAC with more accurately clocked data it means the DAC clock does not have to work so hard to clock the information internally.
I have heard the differences with reclocking and upscaling and they definitely improve aspects of the sound for me. So fiddling around with all this digital data does allow for improvements to be made. Noise and jitter getting into any part of the digital audio chain is a killer but once its removed so much of the potential of digital audio can be revealed. I heard a mains noise suppressor the other day that made my jaw drop as it had an astonishing effect on my digital audio. Taking away loads of mains noise and RFI etc can have as much impact on the final digital audio SQ as reclocking.
I am wondering if we have now reached the end point in discovering the problems that downgrade digital audio and whether there is any other aspects left to improve on. I hope so because I still feel more needs to be done to bring digital audio closer to analogue as I feel there is still a gulf between the two.
To my ears.:)
funny that - I have yet to hear a turntable that equals my £500 DAC/transport combo and I never will because the things I don't like about analogue replay - the noise, the end of side distortion, the wow and flutter on sustained notes, the lack of definition in the low frequencies - are baked into the format.
They don't seem to bother some people at all I guess because they listen for different things, but I have an analytical ear and I listen out for problems with the sound and to me they are quite obvious. Not so bad that I can't enjoy music on vinyl, but still pretty obvious to me.
Lawrence001
09-04-2023, 12:27
funny that - I have yet to hear a turntable that equals my £500 DAC/transport combo and I never will because the things I don't like about analogue replay - the noise, the end of side distortion, the wow and flutter on sustained notes, the lack of definition in the low frequencies - are baked into the format.
They don't seem to bother some people at all I guess because they listen for different things, but I have an analytical ear and I listen out for problems with the sound and to me they are quite obvious. Not so bad that I can't enjoy music on vinyl, but still pretty obvious to me.I think most of those things can be solved if you chuck enough money at it (except noise inherent in an old record or a bad pressing) so they're not necessarily inherent in the medium, but in your case why would you when digital solves all the issues.
funny that - I have yet to hear a turntable that equals my £500 DAC/transport combo and I never will because the things I don't like about analogue replay - the noise, the end of side distortion, the wow and flutter on sustained notes, the lack of definition in the low frequencies - are baked into the format.
They don't seem to bother some people at all I guess because they listen for different things, but I have an analytical ear and I listen out for problems with the sound and to me they are quite obvious. Not so bad that I can't enjoy music on vinyl, but still pretty obvious to me.
Funny I don't notice most of the problems you mention regarding vinyl playback. I never hear any IGD and as I play very clean pristine vinyl I get no noise at all other than music unlike digital where all I get is some sort of synthetic processed tiring noise.:)
I think most of those things can be solved if you chuck enough money at it (except noise inherent in an old record or a bad pressing) so they're not necessarily inherent in the medium, but in your case why would you when digital solves all the issues.
well that's it, it solves the issues that concern me personally and it's also a lot cheaper as a bonus.
Of course I keep things simple - 16/44.1 only from compact disc, into a DAC, into a pre-amp, into a power amp, into the speakers. No point me using higher bitrate or sampling formats since I've done the blind test and could not for the life of me tell a difference. No internet, no streamer, no Roon (or whatever) end point and so on.
I wonder if complicating the issue (unnecessarily IMO) introduces problems that then need to be solved?
Us audio fools can always find a problem that needs to be solved!:lol:
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