View Full Version : The discrete TC-7520(SE)(+) line output
StanleyB
08-09-2010, 19:25
I drew up a discrete output stage for the TC-7520 and Caiman to hear how it would sound. Leo built a prototype of it on stripboard and I did one as a 'proper' PCB. I wanted to find a solution for the low output of the passive mod and preserve the headphone output capability, but didn't want to go overboard with a complex discrete opamp type design. The gain required is only between 2X to 4X so a single ended class A design with just 10% negative feedback was all I felt that was necessary. No need to crack a nut with a sledge hammer ;).
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/disc3.jpg
It's the best I have heard my D7000 and HD800 sound to date. I managed to pick up some detail in musical passages I thought I had explored to the full.
Time for a retake on all my test tracks :guitar:.
Covenant
08-09-2010, 20:09
I will start with the most obvious question! Will it be commercially available?
Great work Stan! its been hard keeping quiet :lol: yours looks better than my knocked up version on vero :) Mines basically just the transistor stage so I've not tried it with the HA op-amp yet, I'll see if I can squeeze the op-amp on there too
Simple where possible is certainly good in this case :eyebrows:
Are you going to give us the schematic?
StanleyB
08-09-2010, 20:51
I will start with the most obvious question! Will it be commercially available?
If there is enough interest. To save cost I can perhaps just make the boards but leave the opamp socket empty. That way people can use their existing (expensive or otherwise) opamp. I have tried some non-polarized caps from Jackson, but I also fitted a couple of Rubycons I scrounged off Tirna.
Without the opamp I can try to aim for £30 plus postage. Might be a bit more or less, depending on identifying any hidden costs. Or I can perhasp do a fitting service for those who are scared to swap the PCB over by themselves.
Any suggestions on this?
By the way Leo, any words of advise for the guys on what you thought about the performance?
Could one of the opamps be re-used from the original board? (Sorry if that is a daft question - I'm assuming yes, but just to check as I never got into rolling them.)
If it improves on the already amazing Passive Output mod then at £30 (give or take) it is a no brainer - I'll have one please Stan! :)
By the way Leo, any words of advise for the guys on what you thought about the performance?
TBH I think the caps I used are adding more signature than the circuit :lol: which is a good thing. What I want to do is use the same caps as whats used in passive out mod.
Its definitely better than the original stock op-amp stage (IMO) . Compared to the passive mod it gives a noticeable higher output and seems more full in the mids . Reason I want to change the caps is to be sure its not those adding more in the mids
I've used it with both an active line amp and straight into a power amp using the dac as a linestage, it works well (for me ) in both locations .
StanleyB
08-09-2010, 21:56
Could one of the opamps be re-used from the original board? (Sorry if that is a daft question - I'm assuming yes, but just to check as I never got into rolling them.)
That's the whole idea so that cost can be kept down:).
Around £30 seems a good deal to me especially when you compare it to a lot of these other discrete op-amps floating about on the net :lol: at least with this it fits straight into the dac without having to mess about
Are you going to give us the schematic?
I'll take that a "no" then;)
Count me in for 1 board please Stan, 30 quid seems reasonable to me.
Cheers
Frizzup
Canetoad
09-09-2010, 06:35
+1:)
StanleyB
09-09-2010, 07:20
I have asked my sourcing manager to get me a quote on the bill of material and the cost of a nice small foam padded box to put the finished PCB in. The PCB blanks manufacturer normally only accepts orders of 250 or more. So I'll make 250 blanks and populate 100 of those into fully working boards.
I'll know more next week, which will give me a chance to let you guys know the expected time of arrival/availability of the finished PCB and if the £30 price is about right. I am not looking to make a profit on any of my mods, which is why I give them away for free. But I have to at least cover the cost of manufacturing in this case.
In the meantime I'll PM a few people to see who might have the time to try out my PCB for a day or so in their system.
Covenant
09-09-2010, 07:23
Could you give a bit more detail about the method of fitting?
At this stage you can put me down for two boards please Stan.
StanleyB
09-09-2010, 08:01
1. Undo the 4 screws at the bottom of the DAC case.
2. Remove top cover of the case.
3. Remove existing audio PCB by holding it at the edges and pulling it upwards. Not an easy job since the audio PCB is stuck with a bit of glue to the headphone socket underneath. I use a scalpel to carefully cut away the glue.
4. Fit new PCB in the exposed sockets on the main PCB. Check that all the pins on the new PCB fit exactly inside the holes of the connector on the main PCB. No pins should be left exposed, otherwise the PCB is not fitted properly.
Covenant
09-09-2010, 08:16
Thats confimed it-two boards please Stan!
StanleyB
09-09-2010, 08:24
OK Jerry. I'll make a spreadsheet so that nobody is overlooked :).
I'll probably offer a fitting service for those who are worried about swapping the PCB by themselves.
Hi Stan, just to double check. :)
(I'll ask then Jerry ;))
just one opamp...?
Is this for headphone use only?
(Probably not listening to common sense :), but just checking!)
Also, do you see this sounding better than the "less is more" approach of the Passive Output Mod, which removes the opamp board all together?
I ask this as I found quite a difference in sound putting in different coupling Cap types in place of the original opamp board, which would seem indicate the Dac is sensitive to whatever is plugged into the PCB output socket.
thanks! :cool:
StanleyB
09-09-2010, 10:56
Hi Stan, just to double check. :)
(I'll ask then Jerry ;))
just one opamp...?
Is this for headphone use only?
(Probably not listening to common sense :), but just checking!)
Also, do you see this sounding better than the "less is more" approach of the Passive Output Mod, which removes the opamp board all together?
I ask this as I found quite a difference in sound putting in different coupling Cap types in place of the original opamp board, which would seem indicate the Dac is sensitive to whatever is plugged into the PCB output socket.
thanks! :cool:
I refer my learned friend to the opening line of this thread, "I drew up a discrete output stage for the TC-7520 and Caiman to hear how it would sound. Leo built a prototype of it on stripboard and I did one as a 'proper' PCB. I wanted to find a solution for the low output of the passive mod and preserve the headphone output capability, but didn't want to go overboard with a complex discrete opamp type design. "
In other words, if you are happy with the passive mod and it's output level, and don't need the headphone output, then you don't need this upgrade.
As for caps and opamps for this PCB: feel free to improve on my choice.
I'd like to register my interest for this upgrade :)
Still haven't done any mods to my 7520 besides opamp and MLC5/6 removal, but intend on sending it to Tirna for the dac/reg/cap mods and getting a 15V PSU at some point. I use headphones a lot so this seems like a good move, and if I get stuck Tirna can change it for me. :eyebrows:
You can add me to the list too please. :cheers:
I refer my learned friend to the opening line of this thread, "I drew up a discrete output stage for the TC-7520 and Caiman to hear how it would sound. Leo built a prototype of it on stripboard and I did one as a 'proper' PCB. I wanted to find a solution for the low output of the passive mod and preserve the headphone output capability, but didn't want to go overboard with a complex discrete opamp type design. "
In other words, if you are happy with the passive mod and it's output level, and don't need the headphone output, then you don't need this upgrade.
As for caps and opamps for this PCB: feel free to improve on my choice.
Thanks for that Stan, clears that one up perfectly! :)
I'm not a headphone user, so will follow your advice and stick with the passive mod I've currently got.
Seems a great option for headphone users though...
I'd be interested in this too Stan, having just done the Passive mod and being an occasional headphone user!!
Jason
I tried some other caps today and noticed a difference in tone, got to try and find some grey Rubycons now ;)
quadsugdenman
12-09-2010, 14:00
I'll probably offer a fitting service for those who are worried about swapping the PCB by themselves.
I think thats the one for me Stan :scratch:, put me down for that when you are ready.
Best Regards
Garry
StanleyB
13-09-2010, 13:23
OK, the PCB factory and me have come to an agreement on the price of 100 pieces. So I have given the OK for it to be manufactured. ETA is October :).
Peter Galbavy
13-09-2010, 19:01
Hmm. Not sure I need the extra gain TBH, but it might be useful for some of the older and quieter (really quiet, not high dynamic range recordings) CDs when connecting direct to the poweramp.
StanleyB
13-09-2010, 19:09
Let's just say that I have very much undersold the performance of the discrete PCB ;).
So Stan
With you ordering 100 PCB's how do you propose we place our order with you
Is it first come first serve through AOS ?, or your website ?
Just wanting to make sure I get my hands on one
Frizzup
StanleyB
14-09-2010, 11:40
I shall run down the thread from #1 and everyone who has shown an interest will be sent a PM with a link on it that is tied to the AoS website. So if you can't receive PM and are not a member of AoS you won't be able to access the AoS related page on my site :eyebrows:. Copying and emailing the link to a friend won't work :ner:. That way I can give AoS members priority.
By the way , the product name for the discrete PCB is Gator...
Gatorised Caiman - I like it! :)
Let's just say that I have very much undersold the performance of the discrete PCB ;).
Now I'm excited, the passive mod is really working in my system.
Roll on October!
For the coupling caps I've tried a few including grey Rubycons (I removed them from the original op-amp audioboard ) also green Nichicon BP's , metalic blue sleeve Panasonics , Nichicon FG ,Elna silmicII and Rubycon ZL.
I still like those grey BP Rubycons best so far out of the lytics , its a shame their hard to find now:( Still need to try some more, I'm also going to try the 10uf 50v Wima which are quite compact although obviously won't be as good as the best film caps
Heres my cut down version bodged on vero
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P1090321.jpg
Does this bypass the muting circuit as that does my head in with the huge blips at the start of a track.
Could you lovely Brits save me some forum reading (I'm swamped with school right now, and I'm getting old) and let me know:
1. i just received my new Caiman. Love it! UNmod'd at this time. Is this board meant for a mod'd Caiman or good to go for mine?
2. Do I have to perform some other mods to get all the improvement out of this new board?
3. I love my headphones (AKG 702s), and have wanted to use the Caiman as a pre-amp. Does this board mean it would only do fixed line out and phones? (not a deal killer.. I might end up using an integrated amp anyway), or does variable out still work (and be improved).
Thanks folks!
StanleyB
15-09-2010, 06:58
Does this bypass the muting circuit as that does my head in with the huge blips at the start of a track.
When I have the Gators in, send me the DAC and I'll check that out for you.
StanleyB
15-09-2010, 07:10
2. Do I have to perform some other mods to get all the improvement out of this new board?
3. I love my headphones (AKG 702s), and have wanted to use the Caiman as a pre-amp. Does this board mean it would only do fixed line out and phones? (not a deal killer.. I might end up using an integrated amp anyway), or does variable out still work (and be improved).
2. Yes you have to remove one of the opamps from the old audio PCB and fit it to the Gator PCB instead.
3. You can use the stock Caiman as a pre-amp. Many already do and have mentioned it on AoS many times. Did you not notice that before?
To understand what the Gator is designed to do, see the opening lines in the first post in this thread.
Hi Stan
Sign me up for one of these...
Finally got around to cycle to Holstebro the other day and fetch a couple of Dexa's UWB regulators; time to dust of the iron.
Cheers
Jan
3. You can use the stock Caiman as a pre-amp. Many already do and have mentioned it on AoS many times. Did you not notice that before?
To understand what the Gator is designed to do, see the opening lines in the first post in this thread.
Hi Stanley. Yes, I've used my 7520 as a pre amp for a year. I'm just not aware of what all the previous mods do. "I wanted to find a solution for the low output of the passive mod..." Does this board only go into a Caiman that's had the passive mod applied, or does this board take the place of it (an improved version of the passive mod). Also, what I'm not clear on, is if after
I insert this board, can I still use as a pre, or does it become a passive fixed line output (and HPA) only. Sorry not clear to me, and thanks for your response.
StanleyB
15-09-2010, 10:03
The Gator maintains all the functionality of the stock audio PCB. So fixed, variable, and headphone output are all present and unaffected.
In other words: the first opamp on the stock board has been replaced with discrete transistors. Everything else is the same. That includes the connections and signals to every pin on the connectors.
Or to put it another way: the Gator does not remove the variable output, nd does not override the muting circuit.
Have I missed anything in the explanation?
Nope, best explanation ever! Add me to your list Stan. Thanks!
The Gator maintains all the functionality of the stock audio PCB. So fixed, variable, and headphone output are all present and unaffected.
In other words: the first opamp on the stock board has been replaced with discrete transistors. Everything else is the same. That includes the connections and signals to every pin on the connectors.
Or to put it another way: the Gator does not remove the variable output, nd does not override the muting circuit.
Have I missed anything in the explanation?
smurfbrain
15-09-2010, 20:48
Please add me too Stan.
Gentle Giant
16-09-2010, 15:59
The impedance in my Rotel RB-1552 power amp is 33 kOhms. I use the Caimen as pre. I have to turn the knob to "12" while listening. I'm worrying about the -3db in gain. Do you think the passive mod can work for me or should I consider the gator board? I never use my headphones.
StanleyB
16-09-2010, 16:01
The Gator would be your best option. If you don't use the headphone output it's not a problem.
Gentle Giant
16-09-2010, 16:04
Thanks for your fast replay. I would really like one then :)
Hi GG,
What's your first name? Please add it to the signature on your profile - cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Sorry I've come late onto this one. Out of the country in the middle of nowhere dodging strangers in funny clothes.
I'm not a 'phone user and haven't done the passive mod. I do seem to find, playing around with the op-amps that the headphone op-amp seemed to have an effect on the line out too.
Would this be the same with this board (or am I barking up the wrong baobab)
Covenant
24-09-2010, 08:16
Hey Leo,
Have you been slacking? You said you were going to try more caps on the Gator board but you have gone quiet.
Not having a week off are you?:lol:
Re: Volume controls..
In the good old bad old days, the optimum volume was set with the control at 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock (7 o'clock being minimum). Somewhere along the line, the log laws were changed (it may just have been the advent of CD players with much larger outputs as well) and optimum volume on so many amps seems to be at 9 o'clock by comparison, thereby crushing most of the control's range in the first third of rotation..
If the passive mod drops the output by 3db, then that brings the output down to that of your average vintage tuner or tape deck unless I'm mistaken. The Gator mod looks to be just the thing though.
Hey Leo,
Have you been slacking? You said you were going to try more caps on the Gator board but you have gone quiet.
Not having a week off are you?:lol:
A week off ??? I bloody wish :lol: been busy with work mate.
I had some 10uf MKP 2000's arrive yesterday which I'm currently trying out in the Gator before the Sabre dac . Theres others to try yet too , I just have to wait for them to arrive.
These MKP2000 caps so far are sounding pretty good and are cheap to boot. Their not massively huge in size but still not an ideal fit in the Caiman when using the Gator. I found them to sound a little forced at first when new but they are improving with use, bass is pretty clean although lacking a little in weight.
They sound more tidy than the cheap and very compact 10uf 50v Wima.
With the Electrolytic types I still prefer the grey jacket Rubycon BP's, others tried include Elna SilmicII, Nichicon BP, Nichicon FG, Nichicon KZ, Blackgate FK, Blackgate N, Blackgate standard, Panasonic FC, Rubycon ZL anda few general purpose types. I just feel the grey Rubycon gave the best overall sound out of the electrolytics , the film caps like polypropylene etc are even better but have the disadvantage of being larger and more expensive . The advantage with films is their lower distortion
Like the passive out mod it maybe worth seeing how low in values you can use in your own setup , obviously the lower values will be smaller in size and cheaper, if you don't mind running the caps on the outside you can use what you like
Covenant
24-09-2010, 18:25
Thanks Leo,
Hmm, think I prefer to keep them on the inside. Stan said 2No 47uF/16V which are big and bloody expensive so if you find something good at a smaller value please let me know and I will get some and send them on to Stan.
oh wow i just noticed there is this thread. Just wondering what is the capacitor chosen for passive output the gator board?
I am assuming with this gator board its something that is fixed and we cant easily change the capacitor without desoldering the existing one?
Canetoad
01-10-2010, 17:06
Yes, which capacitors on this board can be replaced with better versions as per the passive mod using only the board sockets?
StanleyB
01-10-2010, 20:44
The good news is that I have secured a small quantity of the black 47uF Rubycon.
The bad news is that based on the quantity of caps on hand, only 200 Gator boards can be built with those caps. But I reckon that a production run of 200 is just about all that I am likely to get orders for. So don't panic!
Well I reckon I should be number 1 on the list, given my first response on this thread, so I'm all right, Jack! :)
and that makes me second in line for one
Frizzup;)
StanleyB
01-10-2010, 21:03
No worries. As long as this thread is not lost in a server crash, it will be first asked, first offered refusal :).
By the way, anyone close by to me in London and can make it to my place with their DAC who wishes to try out the prototype? PM me for your own safety :lol:.
Canetoad
02-10-2010, 10:50
Since I've previously commented on this thread, does that mean I'm on the list?
If not add me to it please. :)
a prototype volunteer... that would be another good reason for going to London for a couple of days
Peter Galbavy
05-10-2010, 08:32
Or Stan, come over and visit me one of these days, but yeah I am happy to be a guinea pig :)
StanleyB
05-10-2010, 08:40
Hi Peter, another member has it currently connected up to his Croft amp. I'll give you a shout once he can part with it...
Please add me to the list, i think the board will be wonderful.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
Covenant
10-10-2010, 19:34
Do you have an expected delivery date yet Stan?
StanleyB
11-10-2010, 06:05
The PCB manufacturer should be sending the blank boards to the components assembler this week if everything goes to plan. So my planned October schedule still looks achievable. I am busy working out the fitting instructions right now for those who would need it....
The Vinyl Adventure
11-10-2010, 09:49
Stick me down for one please Stan, I'm being forced back into headphone use ...
Rare Bird
11-10-2010, 11:50
Are they available just blank boards (No components)?
StanleyB
11-10-2010, 12:00
Are they available just blank boards (No components)?
Are you thinking of fitting your own sourced parts on it? I can see if I can get one blank PCB to be put aside out of the 200 made. PCB manufacturers tend to charge a fortune just to make one blank PCB. Savings are only passed on to customers ( in this case me ) when you order a sizeable quantity in one go.
apmusson
11-10-2010, 13:05
Count me in for one too Stan.
Cheers
Ade
so with this section being titled diy projects where is the circuit diagram for this
or is this just a market stall?
Hi 'vaio',
Welcome to AOS :)
Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your first name, basic geographic location, system details and music tastes, as this is the requirement for all new members joining AOS.
Cheers :cool:
Marco.
Please help me to understand this mod correctly.. This PCB is basicly a discrete amp stage for the headphone output? Can it be used without the passive mod? And the line out remains unaffected?
StanleyB
14-10-2010, 18:22
The discrete stage is for the fixed and variable output. The headphone stage has been tweaked at the same time, which will be most noticeable by HD650 owners. The hD650 is infamous for its slightly slow bass. The discrete PCB tweaks gives the HD650 a lot more punch.
HighFidelityGuy
25-10-2010, 16:17
Hi Stan. Can you please put my name down for one of these discrete output boards ? I hope I'm not too late. :eek:
Cheers. :cool:
Surreydocker
25-10-2010, 17:27
Me too please Stan
Any updates on the progress being made Stan?
Covenant
01-11-2010, 19:24
Any updates on the progress being made Stan?
I imagine he is so busy slaving over 200 circuit boards and a hot soldering iron that he hasn't had the time to reply.........
StanleyB
02-11-2010, 07:24
Any updates on the progress being made Stan?
Entirely my fault for the delay. I filled in the delivery date of the fitting instructions and packing wrong. I put 11-10-2010, which means the 11th of October in the UK at least. But my Far Eastern supplier understood that to be the 10th of November:doh:. If everything else runs smoothly I should have the goods ready for shipping a week or so after the 10th.
But every cloud has a silver lining;). The £ has been so good against the U$ lately, the initial estimated price of £29.99 (plus VAT and shipping) is more likely to be around 20% lower:).
Thanks for the update Stan. (Should be run in for Christmas then! :))
I wonder how many other manufacturers would pass on a saving from exchange rate fluctuations to their customers...? (I bet many are quick to go the other way though!)
StanleyB
02-11-2010, 08:20
I wonder how many other manufacturers would pass on a saving from exchange rate fluctuations to their customers...? (I bet many are quick to go the other way though!)
Have you seen the price drop on the Caiman & Caiman+ on my site lately;). That has gone down by about 15 to 20% at the check out in the last 6 weeks, in line with the exchange rate.
Stan is the man:youtheman:
Excellent ETA for me anyway; I should be back from Spain and eagerly await the postman by the door
Edit: oh where are my manners: also thanks to George Bush the younger for giving us those exchange rates
Stan, I don't own one of your DAC's, but I just wanted to thank you for passing exchange-rate savings on to your customers. I sincerely wish other distributer/manufacturers were as honest, instead of pocketing the difference when the £ is stronger....
Graybags
11-11-2010, 00:48
Go on then Stan, put me down for a board. Been playing after finally getting round to using the components group-buy at the start of the year, was worried about opening it up what with the warranty sticker :-)
Didn't use the grey mundorf's in the board so tried them out with the passive mod. Good, but not as good as the 3u3 Ashcrofts (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360012654865&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT). Might post a picky in the passive thread.
StanleyB
11-11-2010, 08:36
If space was not too much of an issue within the Caiman, a lot of good use would have been made of that. If I had time on my hand I would have loved to start on a hobbyist project to design a bigger aftermarket case. The Caiman is crying out for one.
Sorry for all the delays in being able to ship the first batch of the elusive Gator. Here's a screen shot of it in the mean time.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/TC-7400/GATOR.jpg
The BAD News
The black Rubycon 47uF/50V caps I originally ordered turned out to be far to high, and would not fit in the Caiman+ :doh:. So I have had to get someone to take them away and desolder all the of them.
The Good News
After searching as far afield as the US I did manage to get the last remaining batch of the legendary Rubycon grey 47uF and 33uF ( at a crazy over inflated price I may add).
I don't have enough 47uF to start sprinkling them about liberally on each PCB. So I have been doing some intensive listening tests in order to see what delivers more bangs for bucks. The boards will be populated with the different values in certain locations according to my tests. The headphone output cap is however a difficult one to determine. I have selected a value based on my own preference, but I have made it two slots for the output cap so that headphone listeners who want to experiment further have the option to add/remove caps on the headphone output.
By the way, I'll offer the option for interested parties to buy the board without any caps, in case they wish to try something different to the Rybycons. I don't have enough of them so I don't fancy seeing them go to waste after all the efforts I made to source them.
Good work Stan, you even went to the trouble of sourcing a few of the grey Rubycons :respect:
StanleyB
11-11-2010, 09:27
It was like finding a hen's teeth in a haystack. If I sold them on I would make a small fortune I reckon :scratch:. :lol:.
Peter Galbavy
11-11-2010, 14:11
Cool board. Let me know if and when I can get one with caps in all the right places :)
Looking forward to this :)
Looking good..... I think that I will make do with the grey Rubycons
Kendalbeefcake
15-11-2010, 21:39
Hello..I've been lurking on this forum for a while, but thought it time to say hello! Stan, I'd like to "officially" put my name down for the 'gator' please!
Tia!
Kendal
Techno Commander
15-11-2010, 22:34
If I had time on my hand I would have loved to start on a hobbyist project to design a bigger aftermarket case. The Caiman is crying out for one.
Something like these (http://www.modu.it/galaxy.html) would be good. Especially if it has enough room for a linear PSU as well.
http://www.modu.it/gx16x12_411x308.jpg
They will also supply cases CNC'd to your spec (http://www.modu.it/laveng.html) with no minimum quantuty.
StanleyB
18-11-2010, 22:00
Thanks for that Andy. I'll look into that.
By the way, the first batch of the Gator are now being sent out based on my list. The next batch will be with me at the end of the month.
Stanley, is payment for Gator +freight still via Paypal?
StanleyB
18-11-2010, 22:35
Yes it is. you'll receive a PM in due course when your name comes up :). The first batch was very small, and not everyone who showed interest are a member on AoS so their names are not on the forum list.
Someone mentioned to me that this PCB could end up as a collector's item, and be traded at a higher price than what it was bought for..
"collector's item" aye... it might be a better investment than the stock market:violin:
well I think that I will make do with one for now
StanleyB
18-11-2010, 22:55
A standard audio PCB was recently listed by someone for £35 plus P&P. Surely the Gator is worth more than that ;).
Kendalbeefcake
18-11-2010, 23:07
Hi Stan,
Was just looking at your website (which I think you've updated recently?) And spotted a typo and a broken link..
From http://www.homehifi.co.uk/main/main.html
"Music dowloads"
and "Spectrum Mix2" doesn't go anywhere ATM..
Guessing I'm on the 2nd list then :( Still looking forward to it tho :)
StanleyB
19-11-2010, 08:01
Cheers Kendal. I'll take it up with The Merchant Brothers. Their link must have expired on that freebie.
The Vinyl Adventure
19-11-2010, 16:18
got my Gator this morning, thanks Stan, quality service as per usual... difficult to determin improvment or otherwise in sound at the moment as my upstairs system has changed a lot recently ... seems to be louder than the passive mod ... i assume that is right? or am i going mad?
i assume by the fact that i have sound comeing out its all in the right way round?
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/80565c85.jpg
:)
StanleyB
19-11-2010, 17:26
Hi Hamish, as I mentioned in the 2nd line that starts this thread off:
I wanted to find a solution for the low output of the passive mod and preserve the headphone output capability, but didn't want to go overboard with a complex discrete opamp type design. The gain required is only between 2X to 4X so a single ended class A design with just 10% negative feedback was all I felt that was necessary. No need to crack a nut with a sledge hammer .
So yes, the output is higher than the passive mod by about 3dB. And yes, you have plugged it the right way round.
Compare the Gator versus the original audio board in order to get an idea of how much an improvement the Gator is. Output level should be the same on the fixed output, but higher on the variable output.
Then compare the Gator versus the passive mod. Sound quality should be about the same, but the gain of the Gator will be higher. The dynamic range should also be greater with the Gator, and the bass speed should be better than the standard audio board.
Received, installed, works! Doesn't sound like it will need as much burn in-time as the passive cap mods I've tried - sounds great out of the box - but too early to make any proper comments or conclusion.
Am I correct in assuming that the Gator is now a higher current ouput buffer with a low(ish) impedance now "properly" able to drive a power amp as a conventional preamp would?
Graybags
20-11-2010, 12:50
Received mine this morning, capp'ed, installed and running.
Thanks Stan for a swift service :)
The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2010, 14:29
Hi Hamish, as I mentioned in the 2nd line that starts this thread off:
I wanted to find a solution for the low output of the passive mod and preserve the headphone output capability, but didn't want to go overboard with a complex discrete opamp type design. The gain required is only between 2X to 4X so a single ended class A design with just 10% negative feedback was all I felt that was necessary. No need to crack a nut with a sledge hammer .
So yes, the output is higher than the passive mod by about 3dB. And yes, you have plugged it the right way round.
Compare the Gator versus the original audio board in order to get an idea of how much an improvement the Gator is. Output level should be the same on the fixed output, but higher on the variable output.
Then compare the Gator versus the passive mod. Sound quality should be about the same, but the gain of the Gator will be higher. The dynamic range should also be greater with the Gator, and the bass speed should be better than the standard audio board.
My original board isn't very original to be fair, but I will have some time on comparison soon ... It was mainly about retaining the improvement I got from the passive mod and getting back headphone use ... And that seems to be exactly what has happened - I missed the bit in your post about extra volume but that is a happy bonus as I have a more useful volume control in my set up now ... With the passive mod I had to turn the control quite far round to get good level and then it was difficult to get the level just right for some reason...
It does seem to sound very slightly different from the passive mod, a bit less laid back, but that could be just the extra volume...?
What ever, I'm very happy with it ... The sound seems as good as it has ever been and it has all it's functionality! So yeah, cheers again for your efforts!
Canetoad
20-11-2010, 14:39
:(:( Still waiting for mine to arrive.
StanleyB
20-11-2010, 16:43
I added an additional 'aftermarket' modification option for the headphone section that will allow soldering savvy Gator owners to refine the headphone output and get it to match their headphones more closely. The reason why I added this extra modification option is because of the wide range of headphone impedances and bass depth level. The standard configuration is set to comply with the EU directives on headphone output level safety. But once the Gator has a wider ownership audience I'll sit down and describe the headphone output mod.
The HD650 has frequently been accused of having a lazy bass. The standard Gator quickly turns that HD650 in a punchy bass performer. And that's to mention just one headphone that I have tested it with.
Covenant
20-11-2010, 19:30
I had a bad 10 minutes after fitting the Gator board. Horrible distorted sounds. Twiddled all the cables but no joy. I was just about to PM Stan when I had an idea. I disconnected my Lightspeed and plugged the dac directly into the amp. Perfect sound. I guess its just an attenuation issue, maybe Goldenjacks or something is required.
Anyway I am very happy with the result, I hadn't bothered with the Passive mod as I wanted to retain the headphone facility and was fed up with all the cap comments. Just to be different I asked Stan to fit some Nichicon FK caps so YMMV but the difference, to me, is marked. The speakers seem to disappear and I feel like my chair is closer to the stage or microphone.
So I think I will try headphones next and crack open a bottle:cool:.....
I wonder what the output impedance of the Gator is.
StanleyB
22-11-2010, 10:41
I would recommend the Caiman in your set up. The 2Vrms output would be far too much for your power amp, which has a very low sensitivity if I remember correctly.
Gator received yesterday - thanks Stan! just gotta get 5 minutes to fit it now...
StanleyB
24-11-2010, 10:30
I hope one or more of the Gator owners could pen a few quick lines about their early impressions :). Next batch of Gator invoices are going out next week :eyebrows:.
StanleyB
26-11-2010, 08:20
I have been trying out the Gator with each of my headphones and couple of different opamps in the headphone output. I must say that the AD826 is so far the most impressive of the 'straight plug in' type. The bass has more beef in it and sibilance is less noticeable on offending recordings.
StanleyB
29-11-2010, 14:02
2nd batch of Gator now in :). Check your PM. If I missed anyone on the list, PM or email me ASAP.
HighFidelityGuy
29-11-2010, 14:09
Woohoo, looking forward to this. :carrot:
Somehow I don't think the gator is gonna arrive today. :(
Damn snow.
HighFidelityGuy
01-12-2010, 10:38
Somehow I don't think the gator is gonna arrive today. :(
Damn snow.
Yeah, I think it's going to be a while until I get mine too. Mine's getting delivered to work and I'm stuck at home with a foot of snow outside. :(
StanleyB
01-12-2010, 10:45
Yeah, I think it's going to be a while until I get mine too. Mine's getting delivered to work and I'm stuck at home with a foot of snow outside. :(:lol:.
Yours was sent out on Monday.
Despite the snow, my Gaitor was delivered today - Stan only posted it yesterday :youtheman: .
Steebo123
02-12-2010, 07:03
Got mine yesterday. Will try and fit it today.
The Grand Wazoo
02-12-2010, 07:44
Hello there Steve,
Welcome to the Art of Sound.
Would you mind diving into the Welcome area please & just saying a few words of introduction. This is a requirement for all new members. You'll find a quick guide to what's expected by clicking here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=799)
Apart from that, have fun while you're at AoS.
Cheers
Covenant
02-12-2010, 12:55
Mine has been installed for about a week now. Over that period the sound quality has improved to the point where I now believe its reached its optimum performance. And what a performance, Stan you will have to go some to beat this with next years model.
The post came by this morning; now where is that screwdriver.....
Covenant
05-12-2010, 15:50
I am a bit surprised that there has been so few responses apart from mine.....:mental:
Graybags
05-12-2010, 16:19
I am a bit surprised that there has been so few responses apart from mine.....
TBH i've been so busy I haven't had much time to listen to music properly this last week or so (crime I know). I'd previously been using the Caiman with just a passive cap mod (some polyester caps picked up from Ebay) and was happy enough with the sound but always one for not missing out thought it worth punt.
The proper way of testing would have been to replace the caps with the board and do some comparisons but life's too short, so as well as installing the board it also got the Murta regs at the same time.
The sound of the combination is noticable even without any direct comparison. The first thing was that the there's more high-frequency detail (cymbols etc). Also the bass seems tighter than the caps, but no more deeper or extended.
Oh I don't know :scratch: - it seems a good buy, the rest of the high-fi isn't up to distinguishing the difference I suspect.
I have to lift my hat (no smiles for that) to Stan for forever tweaking and providing us the fruits of his work. At the end of the day it's all about the music.
:band:
BTW - The cardboard box for Charlize has gone and she's now in an anonymous aluminium box.:unfair:
I am a bit surprised that there has been so few responses apart from mine.....:mental:
Totally off topic, but I love the series of books referred to in your avatar Jerry - made for entrancing reading years ago when I commuted to London. i tend to re-read them every ten years or so :)
Peter Galbavy
05-12-2010, 18:37
Just picked my Gator board up and fitted it. In the process I snapped something off the USB daughter board when removing (or trying to remove) the glue in the way of the new board. Er, Stan, how much for a new USB board ? I use it very rarely though, so ce la vie.
Initial impressions. More bass. Much much more bass. Trying to match volumes with the earlier passive mod in general, but there is noticeably more bass. I do not object to this per se. Speaker positioning to play later. Maybe in the week.
Thanks again to Stan for continuing to evolve an already excellent product!
Covenant
05-12-2010, 19:11
Totally off topic, but I love the series of books referred to in your avatar Jerry - made for entrancing reading years ago when I commuted to London. i tend to re-read them every ten years or so :)
Yea, I have read them three times myself. In the middle of Against All Things Ending-the next to last one. :(
Just picked my Gator board up and fitted it. In the process I snapped something off the USB daughter board when removing (or trying to remove) the glue in the way of the new board. Er, Stan, how much for a new USB board ? I use it very rarely though, so ce la vie.
Initial impressions. More bass. Much much more bass. Trying to match volumes with the earlier passive mod in general, but there is noticeably more bass. I do not object to this per se. Speaker positioning to play later. Maybe in the week.
Thanks again to Stan for continuing to evolve an already excellent product!
The user comparisons between the passive mod and theGator board are interesting...
be good to see them trickling out.
Kendalbeefcake
06-12-2010, 22:08
My Gator Showed up today! :)
But my Denon D2000's fell apart on Friday :(
So it's going to be a while before I get to hear it :doh: Can anyone suggest some alternatives in the £200-£300 price range? I've always had "listener fatigue" with the Denons (not the caiman's fault, same problem when plugged into the laptop) Advice please so I can try out my Gator!
Still waiting for mine. Snow has turned to ice. Can anyone tell me which delivery company it is being shipped by please.
Canetoad
07-12-2010, 11:40
Mine came with Royal Mail. Haven't received anything for days and am waiting for quite a bit. Don't hold your breath!
StanleyB
07-12-2010, 20:31
I have been using the Gator plus AD826 in a TC-7520 with my HD650 headphones, and I am impressed. The normally sloppy bass on the HD650 is now far firmer and punchy. Not the kind of attributes that one would associate with the normally lethargic HD650. Rock music now sound more believable with the HD650.
Kendalbeefcake
07-12-2010, 22:22
Thanks Stan..!
My Gator Showed up today! :)
But my Denon D2000's fell apart on Friday :(
So it's going to be a while before I get to hear it :doh: Can anyone suggest some alternatives in the £200-£300 price range? I've always had "listener fatigue" with the Denons (not the caiman's fault, same problem when plugged into the laptop) Advice please so I can try out my Gator!
Do you need closed-back cans? If so, you might want to try out the Shure SRH-840s, although those are only about £130 if you shop around. If you are open to open-back cans, then check out a pair of Sennheiser HD600 or HD650 'phones. You should be able to pick up a pair for around £220 if you shop around. Both are highly regarded and I believe Stan uses a pair of HD650s himself.
If you get a pair, I'd be interested in your thoughts compared to the Denon AH-D2000.
Best,
Adam
Kendalbeefcake
09-12-2010, 14:43
Hi Adam,
I'd chosen Closed-backs because of the need to be "social" when listening, i.e. not disturb 'er indoors! I've got a reasonable amount of Denon kit and was always pleased..But has Stan has since pointed out to me off-line it's probably the air-pressure in the closed back which has been giving me grief, so I'll probably switch to an open-back HD650 as you and others have suggested..Assuming Peter Tyson send me back something I can e-bay!
HighFidelityGuy
09-12-2010, 15:30
Mr postman finally delivered my Gator today. :champagne:
I just have one question....I don't really ever use the headphone output on my Caiman, so is there likely to be any sonic benefit to the line outputs by not installing an opamp? I'm just thinking from the point of view of having the fewest number of components as possible. Cheers. :)
StanleyB
09-12-2010, 16:16
I haven't tried that myself, but let us know if it works OK. It won't harm the board since the Gator transistors are on a different supply line to the opamp.
HighFidelityGuy
09-12-2010, 16:26
I haven't tried that myself, but let us know if it works OK. It won't harm the board since the Gator transistors are on a different supply line to the opamp.
Thanks Stan. I'll give it a try without the opamp first and use that as a baseline. It'll save me digging out my box of opamps. Cheers. :cool:
Stan, will the next evolution of the stock Caiman include the Gator board?
Does the addition of a Gator board to a 7520 make it the same beast as a Caiman+Gator? From memory, the difference between the 7520 is in the ouput section.
Are you prepared to declare your hand, Stan: are we anywhere near a Standac with remote control?
Does the Gator improve on the "quality of sound" achieved by the passive mod at all (volume accepted). I am not a headphone user and wondered if the Gator is an upgrade over the caps solution we have been enjoying.
Regards
Chris
StanleyB
13-12-2010, 10:38
All I can say is that the question regarding the Gator upgrade has been answered time and time again in this thread. I refer you to the first opening lines in the thread on page 1.
As for how good it is: you'll have to spend serious money to get any other DAC to sound this good for so little, or your money back:). Which other DAC manufacturer can offer you the same level of confidence when you hand over your hard earned cash ;)?
As for any other product in the future etc.: wrong thread to ask those questions. The forum inspector would be round in a flash with is baseball bat to keep us in line.
I can't see any comparison of passive vs Gator in terms of sound quality (not signal level).
StanleyB
13-12-2010, 10:55
I can't see any comparison of passive vs Gator in terms of sound quality (not signal level).
If you start reading from http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7623&page=13 there are a number of comments from users who have done comparisons ;).
The comparisons are not that clear. Graybags was vs some polyester caps, I'm not sure what Peter Galbay had before so the comparisons are not huge definitive yet...are they?
StanleyB
13-12-2010, 11:33
What exactly are you hoping to read or have existing user write about Clive :scratch:? I am sure more comments will be forthcoming as customers get their Gator through the post. Some parcels are still stuck in a Royal Mail sorting office, whilst others are in flight to foreign lands.
Hi Stan,
The Caiman is superb of that there is no doubt. The question I asked was about the objectives of the Gator design. I already understand that it modifies the volume from the passive mod and also provides for headphones - great.
My question was about the sound quality achieved vs the passive mod (same or better). If it is an upgrade I will end up going for one.
Regards
StanleyB
13-12-2010, 12:57
My question was about the sound quality achieved vs the passive mod (same or better). If it is an upgrade I will end up going for one.
Hi Chris, as I wrote in the first entry of this thread:
I wanted to find a solution for the low output of the passive mod and preserve the headphone output capability.
In other words. It's damn good. And I offer a full refund on the Gator if anyone is not completely satisfied with its performance. But please take note that:
1. You should only buy the Gator if you have tried the passive mod, but need a higher output.
2. You are not confident with fitting the passive mod and experimenting with caps, but you want to experience the improved SQ offered by these mods.
I have only made 200 pieces since it's a hobbyist project. That's why it is in the Drawing Board. So please only order one if you definitely want to experience the magic that the Gator brings to the sound of the TC-7520 and Caiman. It's not a 'me-too' product, but one squarely aimed at the discerning listener who would appreciate its enhanced performance through a decent set of amps and speakers.
Hi Chris, as I wrote in the first entry of this thread:
I wanted to find a solution for the low output of the passive mod and preserve the headphone output capability.
In other words. It's damn good. And I offer a full refund on the Gator if anyone is not completely satisfied with its performance. But please take note that:
1. You should only buy the Gator if you have tried the passive mod, but need a higher output.
2. You are not confident with fitting the passive mod and experimenting with caps, but you want to experience the improved SQ offered by these mods.
I have only made 200 pieces since it's a hobbyist project. That's why it is in the Drawing Board. So please only order one if you definitely want to experience the magic that the Gator brings to the sound of the TC-7520 and Caiman. It's not a 'me-too' product, but one squarely aimed at the discerning listener who would appreciate its enhanced performance through a decent set of amps and speakers.
Hi Stan,
Thank you for the time taken to answer my query. It would appear that as a very happy "Passive Output" user that I will not need to purchase a Gator afterall. I am not sure what the reference to "me-too" means though and yes I can confirm that I enjoy a rather "special" Power amp and cracking speaker setup.
Best regards
Chris
Received mine today!
It was worth the wait though. I didn't really like the sound I was getting from my speakers before but the gator board has transformed this. Everything just comes to life so effortlessly now and is so well balanced.
From what I've read, I think the gator update makes the Caiman a better universal DAC. The passive output mod loses the headphone and variable output facility, and it appears the correct value cap has to be calculated for each application for correct maching. In the real world, rather than "ours," this just isn't sellable, so developing a better quality active output buffer which is nigh-on as good as the passive option, but retaining all the usability of the standard article, MUST be a good thing in the wider scheme of things I reckon.
Hi Dave,
You don't lose the variable output only the headphone use. You don't really need to worry about caps either. Most power amps appear happy with 10uf caps.
Regards
Chris
Stratmangler
14-12-2010, 12:26
My Gator board arrived today - thanks for the usual swift response and service Stan.
Initial impressions are very good -there seems to be greater air, space and detailing in the music.
Bass is good too, although a little "tight", which should improve with useage.
As I said it's just an initial impression - I'll post up my thoughts in a week or so, but at the moment it's sounding very good:)
Covenant
19-12-2010, 12:29
Just to remind everyone, I am using a 7520 with the Wolfson chip, Elna caps, Murata regs and a 15v Super Teddy Regged linear power supply. I didn't bother with the passive mod as I wanted to retain the headphone capability.Initially I tried the Gator with some Nichicon caps and whilst they were good, I thought them a little dry and uninvolving, also the bass was a bit lacking.
Stan, nice chap that he is, kindly swapped the board for the standard Gator which I have had running for a few days.
I will come right to the point and say that my listening experience is now as good as its ever been. The Gator is the best £30 I have spent on an upgrade and I really think it moves the Beresford brand into another league. The level of detail is breathtaking at times; the only downside to this is that poor quality recordings are revealed for what they are. The lower notes are full and rich but well controlled, mid and upper just right without any predominant areas and the soundstage has a better sense of depth.
For the first time I have become a bit dissatisfied with internet radio; Radio Paradise at 128aac is ok but higher resolution recordings reveal the Gators quality.
So why have so few people responded with comments? Am I imagining all this?
Stan deserves a bit more encouragement otherwise he might abandon the Caimen Mk 2 project!
I've only had my Caiman nine days and the Gator only two, so I had intended to wait a while before commenting, but the improvement made by the Gator is so obvious. Biggest gains seem to be in treble detail and 'air and space '. I've not really noticed any major changes in the bass, but my current speakers are pretty bass-light in any case.
It's a no-brainer and a steal at 30 quid. Great stuff Stan.
Sent from my HTC Tattoo using Tapatalk
RoboCopper
19-12-2010, 12:51
So why have so few people responded with comments? Am I imagining all this?
Stan deserves a bit more encouragement otherwise he might abandon the Caimen Mk 2 project!
I just ordered Gator and waiting for it+burn in hence I could comment on it, but based on my previous experience with Passive mod with 7520 with upgraded DAC chip, I HOPE that Mr Beresford never abandons Caiman Mk2 project and comes up even with better sound quality.
Thank you Stan
There's no sinister reason for my silence on the Gator - it sounded very good, but unfortunately the inputs on my amp are too sensitive for the output of the board, and so for the moment I'm back to the passive mod - may have a play with it as a preamp into my Audiolab over Christmas.
I got my Gator today :).
I have just put it in, and I must say that it is a great improvement to an already excellent DAC. The bass is much tighter and more dynamic, the midrange is "sweeter" and the treble has more air and details.
The overall impression is that instruments and voices sounds more natural and are much more dynamic than before. I am impressed... Stan's the man!
Peter Galbavy
21-12-2010, 09:50
I had the music on most of Sunday but not listening critically. I am too busy gushing over and preparing the house for new kittens in Feb ... :)
Techno Commander
21-12-2010, 12:45
. I am too busy gushing over and preparing the house for new kittens in Feb ... :)
Ooh. You know we will require pictures?:)
Peter Galbavy
21-12-2010, 18:27
Slightly (OK, very!) off topic, but here they are as of Saturday (CATurday!) when I drove an 8 1/2 hour roundtrip in the chaos to the breeder's to visit. Three boys from a litter of 6 - 4 boys, 2 girls. Maine Coon giants on the way...
Stratmangler
22-12-2010, 21:48
Just listening to The Beatles "Help !" album in 24 bit, via the Caiman/Gator and my latest toy - a pair of Goldring DR150 headphones, purchased this evening from Richer Sounds for the princely sum of £20.
Sounding very nice, although I've heard that the Goldrings take a while to loosen up.
I found the 'phones through the clearance section on the Richer Sounds website, and they are only available for collection from stores that hold stock.
I'm rather pleased with my purchase, to say the least:)
Looking forward to giving this Gator board a try in my Caiman.
Recently bought a pair of Denon AH-D5000 headphones, and using the passive mod for normal Hi-Fi listening. Since something is wrong with my headphone out stage (some kind of weird distortion/interference audible at certain times within songs) this should allow me to run my Denon cans straight from the Caiman rather than through my integrated amp. Bring on the full potential of my new cans....oh yes! :eyebrows:
Got the Gator now for a week burning in, after using my Trends audio with the passive mod (rubycons). -3dB is too much for the tiny Trends, so went on with the Gator. Volume is what it was before now. Got the idea that there's more space en definition, more then with the passive mod. But possibly my ears are disturbed by the extra dB's the Gator delivers. But overall very impressed with it's brillant non fatique sound!
grtz
Ron
Ordered my Gator after Christmas and got it today.
Just fitted.
Easy to fit: Stan's web instructions could not be clearer.
Initial impression? Better piano sound.
Will leave it for a few hours. Other things to do.
Listening in my Southampton flat so with a Quad 77 Integrated Amp and AVI Neutron 4s.
I would expect the Gator to have more effect in Nicosia when using the Caiman-Gator directly to drive a Quad 405-2.
Have you Stan, or anyone made any objective measurements to compare the Caiman with and without Gator?
Good stuff Brian..
did you try out the Passive Mod beforehand or go straight to the Gator?
Good stuff Brian..
did you try out the Passive Mod beforehand or go straight to the Gator?
No passive mod. Need phones and vol control. Didn't know how DAC without buffer would drive power amp direct.
Just back in. Will have another listen.
My Caiman got its Gator mod nearly three weeks ago, and has burned-in enough for some initial evaluation.
First off, it is definitely a worthwhile upgrade. The Caiman already had the full slew of Tirna mods, and still revealed a noticable improvement. There is more detail in the lows, while excessive brightness has been trimmed off the highs. I also noted a marginal improvement in soundstage on some tracks, but the most significant improvement comes with headphones. Not only are there the previously mentioned detail improvements, but also a much better sense of space between voices and instruments, considerably closer to what my speakers produce.
Stan's service was excellent as usual, and it would certainly seem logical to expect this upgrade on the next incarnation of the Caiman. I'm waiting with eager anticipation Stan! :eyebrows:
Done a bit of listening now, and the Caiman-Gator has been powered up seven hours.
As I said, better piano tone.
With the Gator the Caiman seems to have more clarity and is less aggressive, though it was neither clouded nor abrasive before. I am always wary of subjective descriptions (my engineering background!), but the 'picture' projected by my little Neutron 4s seems bigger, deeper and more convincing. I look forward to hearing what the Gator will do on my big system in Nicosia.
I have now listened to the news and a Feature Film with energetic soundtrack. Speech is better, and the film soundtrack seemed to have more life and more size.
Verdict: An improved sound - a worthwhile purchase.
Edit: I have just read what Stan himself said
The sizeable improvements from both the fixed and variable outputs are noticeable within the first few seconds of playing music through the Gator. Speaker output is far more extended, with a more energetic and punchy bass. Treble is also less edgy and more natural. Soundstage is wider and open, with no hint of a veil.
It's true.
I would like to see some data: how does the DAC measure with and without the Gator? Stan? Leo?
Got My Gator board in a T7520 with an AD826 opamp + Caiman psu , hadn't tried the passive mod due to needing volume control, had tried cutting the MLC5 & 6's but after initial extra detial lovelyness ,was far too harsh so reconnected.
Also put in LM4562NA's and liked what I'd heard.
All I can sat now is WOW, extra bass definition , a more 'realistic sound' to instruments and voices,silky smooth with fantastic detail and a more open soundstage. I've only had about 30 or so hours through the board so will probaly try the LM4562NA opamp in about a week , by then I should have put around 100 hours into it.:cool:
If anyone has a T7520 I can honestly recommend the £50 ish upgrade, I'd love to hear what a Caiman sounds like with this in if it can make mine sound this good .:stalks:
Just wondering what opamp you are all using ?
Cheers
Paul
StanleyB
03-01-2011, 19:09
The opamp is only needed for the headphone stage. If you don't use headphones then the choice of opamp is only important for the correct operation of the PCB.
Kendalbeefcake
04-01-2011, 17:41
Hi,
After a massive palaver with headphones, I finally got to fit the Gator and listen to it..And I've got a problem. :(
I'm only listening to headphones but there is a lot of noise/crackle coming through. It's weird because it's not constant and only on some frequencies (such as the same word twice in Adele's "home town"). Some tracks it only comes through a 3rd of the way through, or not at all..
I'm listening to FLACs from my Music server via coax. I still have the stock PSU, and otherwise I'm totally unmodified..
I was literally about to send it off to Tirna for the Caps and other upgrades, but I can't really send it like this..
"You know I'm no Good" by Amy Winehouse does it as soon as she starts to sing, but the next tracks "Mr and Mr Jones" and "Just Friends" don't do it at all (I've just gone back and played them again, same result). It also does it if go anywhere near the volume control..
Forgive me if I've missed anything obvious, but I did follow the instructions..
What have I done wrong? :scratch:
Edit: I'm using the Stan supplied & fitted AD826 rather than stock op-amps..
The opamp is only needed for the headphone stage. If you don't use headphones then the choice of opamp is only important for the correct operation of the PCB.
Thanks for clearing that up Stan .:cool:
StanleyB
04-01-2011, 19:09
Hi,
After a massive palaver with headphones, I finally got to fit the Gator and listen to it..And I've got a problem. :(
I'm only listening to headphones but there is a lot of noise/crackle coming through. It's weird because it's not constant and only on some frequencies (such as the same word twice in Adele's "home town"). Some tracks it only comes through a 3rd of the way through, or not at all..
The pins on the original PCB have widened the socket clamps in the connectors on either side of the headphone socket. You can lift the black covers off those connectors on the bottom board and CAREFULLY bend the clamps a minuscule bit inwards. That will restore proper contact between the pins on the Gator and the clamps underneath, and get rid of the intermittent noise.
If that's a bit scary, send the board back to me and I'll coat the pins with a slight dab of solder, which will sort out the crackle. Even if you have a soldering iron, don't attempt tinning the pins yourself unless you are very skilled. Tinning those pins is not as easy as it seems. A bit too much solder, and the pins won't go into the socket underneath..
If you need pictures on the first suggestion, let me know and I'll drag myself out of my sick bed to the workshop. Yep, I got a bad flu for weeks now, but luckily my staff are taking care of business for me.
Kendalbeefcake
04-01-2011, 22:14
The pins on the original PCB have widened the socket clamps in the connectors on either side of the headphone socket. You can lift the black covers off those connectors on the bottom board and CAREFULLY bend the clamps a minuscule bit inwards. That will restore proper contact between the pins on the Gator and the clamps underneath, and get rid of the intermittent noise.
If that's a bit scary, send the board back to me and I'll coat the pins with a slight dab of solder, which will sort out the crackle. Even if you have a soldering iron, don't attempt tinning the pins yourself unless you are very skilled. Tinning those pins is not as easy as it seems. A bit too much solder, and the pins won't go into the socket underneath..
If you need pictures on the first suggestion, let me know and I'll drag myself out of my sick bed to the workshop. Yep, I got a bad flu for weeks now, but luckily my staff are taking care of business for me.
Hi Stan, sorry to drag you out of your sick bed! To be honest, now you mention it, the fit wasn't that tight, but I guess this is a side effect of fitting X circuit into Y space.. My soldering skills weren't that great 15 years ago, and I'm guessing that 15 years of non-use won't have helped! I'll take it back apart and see if I can sort it.. It's all a bit academic now as my newly "repaired" Denon D2000s have just fallen apart after 2nd use :steam: I might have to give Tirna a call and ask them if they wouldn't mind doing the honours rather than shipping it all over the country!
Get well soon Stan!
Stan, get well soon!
Read the complete topic and this mods sure seems kike one I would like to get for my 7520!
Send Stanley an PB to ask how and what:)
magiccarpetride
07-01-2011, 18:56
It's the best I have heard my D7000 and HD800 sound to date. I managed to pick up some detail in musical passages I thought I had explored to the full.
Time for a retake on all my test tracks :guitar:.
Finally managed to join the fray and now it's time for reevaluation and the retake on my entire music library.
Before I jump to any premature conclusions, wanted to ask the forum what's the realistic burn in time for the Gator board? I wanna give it full justice, so I need to be sure that I've given it a fair fighting chance. (although, judging from the first impressions, the gatorized Caiman has no reason to fear any competition)
what's the realistic burn in time for the Gator board?
About the time it takes to switch on and sit down.
I am a newbie but thought I'd give my Gator experience.
I got my Gator last week but the output was just too high and causing clipping in my pre-amp (the standard Caiman board is fine with it). Stan very kindly allowed me to return the board and will refund.
Meanwhile, I have gone passive since I do not use the headphones but use both fixed and variable outputs. The variable output still works and is, err, variable (despite suggestions otherwise). The Rubycon caps cost 2 quid and sound excellent, certainly the cheapest and one of the best upgrades I have done...
Cheers
Alastair
Got my Gator mod yesterday and installed it last night.
Must say it sound very very good, quite a bit better than the original board with THS4032 OpAmp I think.
Stan kindly included a LM4562NA OpAmp with the board and I like it!
Bass seems more controled and the soundstage appears a bit wider and very full.
back-to-back testing is a bit hard so I won't attempt that, but this mod seems a very good one right from the box:)
Thanks Stan for this great mod!
Audioslave
20-01-2011, 18:28
Hi Guys / Stan,
Long time lurker on the forums but have just joined up (and said hello on welcome hall). Im interesting in buying a caiman and the gator board as the basis of a 2nd system.
I already have a TC-7520 with THS4032CD in the line out and OPA2132 in headphone. Its a fantastic bit of kit but always thought it would be better if the Line out and headphone opamps didnt influence each other (i believe this to be the case). Ive spent hours trying different op amp combinations and although its quite fun, the process is a bit like brewing a potion :)
Anyways I'd like to give the caiman/gator combo a go due to the discrete line out circuitry. Im just now wondering how i go about ordering a caiman and a gator board as i cant buy the gator board yet on the website.
Thanks in advance
Probably best to drop Stanley Beresford an email at info@homehifi.co.uk
Audioslave
20-01-2011, 19:10
Probably best to drop Stanley Beresford an email at info@homehifi.co.uk
Thought i read somewhere about a link he would send. Email sent anyways - thanks Keith :)
Been listening to the TC7520 + Gator mod setup for some more time now and it realy starts to grow on me.
It sounded so great even straight from the box and it continues to sound better as the LM4562NA opamp burns in.
Great and wide sound stage, super tight and controlled bass, loads of detail and nice balance.
Never could imagine my old Onkyo TX-SV535 receiver with AR Status S50 speakers would sound so good as the do now:)
Makes me wonder what would happen if I decided to upgrade my receiver to something like a Cambridge Audio Azur 740A amp... :cool:
Audioslave
23-01-2011, 17:15
Got a gatored caiman and another gator for my tc-7250 on its way. Will post some comments once its gone through a good burn in and given it a few flacs to chew on. Should be a good week :band: :)
Daft question mode again.
Would the Gator work with the old TC7510 ?
(I know the answer would be a No)
Anyway, I'm going to order one for my Caiman too.
Hope you still got them in stock, Stan.
StanleyB
26-01-2011, 09:33
I have about two dozens left. But many people have asked me if I can make a new batch and maybe even sell it already fitted to the TC-7520 and Caiman. So I might do just that in a month or two.
Audioslave
26-01-2011, 12:45
Fitted the gator to my 100% stock (apart from op amps) tc-7520 last night. Ive had it in its stock state for about 18 months so i think im familiar with how it sounds vs the gator. In short, IMHO its a VAST improvement over any of the op amps ive tried before, and ive tried a few. OPA2132, THS4032, LM4562NA and NE5532P were all put to shame. Im going to be brave and say that it doesnt need any burn in time as it sounded so good out of the box. Listened for about 2 hours last night and was very impressed. Soundstage, detail and timing were all improved and sounded very natural and non-digital.
I noticed 2 things which i hadnt noticed with op amp changes which was very controlled left and right channel steering (stereo imaging??). Im not talking about soundstage here its something to do with how the left and right channels are seemlessly integrated. However, it might have been the track itself that had good stereo mixing so will do some more listening. The other thing which is readily apparent yet quite hard to understand myself is the sheer grunt thats available now. Music can go from quiet to loud effortlessly (more dynamic) without breaking a sweat, everything's more composed when the music gets demanding. My amp is no slouch at 150w into 8 ohms / 95w into 8 and i can only conclude that the power is now being properly utilised. :scratch:
Getting into the details a bit more my stock tc-7520 had a bit of trouble with busy rock music such as metallica and stone sour (think slipknot singer) and was also a little coarse when reproducing smooth female voices (norah jones/adele). With the gator installed I played various genres including norah jones, adele, classical and electro and it all sounded superb...and very realistic. It was quite late so didnt attempt any metallica/stone sour for the sake of the neighbours but will probably give that a whirl when i can. Its probably worth noting i was listening to the dac with the source direct button on the amp turned on therefore bypassing any "colouring" the amp might add.
As for the caiman, its undergoing its lengthy 24/7 burn in process so that will have to wait for now. However, once its ready i hope to do A/B testing on the 7520 vs the caiman. As you can probably tell ive well and truly got upgraditis! Hopefully will be cured soon though :)
StanleyB
26-01-2011, 13:21
The other thing which is readily apparent yet quite hard to understand myself is the sheer grunt thats available now. Music can go from quiet to loud effortlessly (more dynamic) without breaking a sweat, everything's more composed when the music gets demanding. My amp is no slouch at 150w into 8 ohms / 95w into 8 and i can only conclude that the power is now being properly utilised.
Lossless digital audio can have a tremendous amount of dynamic range embedded in it. The old vinyl was only good for about 70dB, whilst digital audio can muster 96dB or more.
The Gator unleashes that dynamic range by careful avoidance of unnecessary feedback in the signal path. Opamps rely on a lot of feedback, which can flatten dynamic range.
Thanks Stan.
You just got another order.. :)
I have about two dozens left. But many people have asked me if I can make a new batch and maybe even sell it already fitted to the TC-7520 and Caiman. So I might do just that in a month or two.
Any chance of being put down for two Gator boards please?
StanleyB
28-01-2011, 08:27
Any chance of being put down for two Gator boards please?
I can, but stock is now critical. Someone just bought 6 pieces in one go for himself and a few members on a Polish audio forum, bringing my stock level to below 20.
I am going to have to make a new batch at this rate if interest in the Gator continues.
tizer2000uk
28-01-2011, 14:07
Emailed Stan last Sunday and expected to find a reply Monday morning but no...
He replied some 20 minutes later.
Ordered late Wednesday night, goods here with me today!
I will be going straight home tonight for an evening of tinkering and listening.
Top marks for customer service as usual Stan!
T
Hi "tizer",
Welcome to AoS :)
Could you do me a favour please and pop into the Welcome area at your earliest opportunity and introduce yourself, giving your real first name, basic location, system details and music tastes, as this is now required of all AoS members.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
I can, but stock is now critical. ...
Thanks - how do I order and pay?
I can see a Gator button on your website but I get redirected to a missing page.
There's no sinister reason for my silence on the Gator - it sounded very good, but unfortunately the inputs on my amp are too sensitive for the output of the board, and so for the moment I'm back to the passive mod - may have a play with it as a preamp into my Audiolab over Christmas.
Well, here's my update. As expected due to my usual procrastination, the Gator board went in the cupboard, Christmas and New Year came and went, and that is where it stayed.
I got an email from Stan last week to enquire how I was getting on - and to offer me the "gain mod" which would resolve the issue I have with my amp. I duly recovered the Gator from said Cupboard, and despatched via the Post Office back to Beresford Towers on Monday lunchtime.
Imagine my surprise, therefore, when the postman knocks on my door this morning, and I'm thinking "I'm not expecting any deliveries... :scratch:" and then realise the Gator has come home to me, in less than 48 hours! I know we always "big up" Stan's service on here - but really - this is just exceptional - I can't imagine many manufacturers would even have remembered I had a problem, let alone be proactive enough to offer the mod, and then turn it around in less than 2 days - and I don't even seem to be able to pay him for it!
If any of you out there in "lurker land" are looking for a reason to buy a Beresford (other than the exceptional performance and value, of course!) then surely this sort of extraordinary service should surely seal it!
Anyway, enough blowing smoke up you know where - to top it all, it only bloody works! ;) Duly fitted, and only a few tracks in, but I can confirm the gain mod has indeed cured the issue I had with my amp distorting, and I can immediately tell that the Gator is a notch up from the passive mod I was previously running. I'm not going to go into any detail or over the top rhetoric - far too early to tell - but I am one happy bunny now having my Gatorized Caiman up and running, and looking forward to some listening.
Once again - Stan's the man! :)
Audioslave
02-02-2011, 12:57
Hi guys,
As alex has updated ill follow suit. Ive put 100+ hours on the caiman+ gator but my amp was distorting so unfortunately it looks like i too have the gain problem too. :( Stan has offered to do the gain mod, but im also experiencing distortion through the headphone which i would have thought has nothing to do with gain. :scratch: Can someone more knowledgeable than myself please clarify if a gain problem will affect headphones? Im running some Sennheisers HD 25SP, but im not really a headphone user im just doing it just to figure out whats going on.
As i was aware this was a new mod i got stan to include the original caiman op amp board so i could drop back to stock. I briefly put the original op amp board and it still sounded off so immediately concluded a contact issue between the main board and the opamp board.
However, i think i was a little hasty and in order to be fair ill let the original op amp board burn in, then make a decision.
P.S. The TC-7520+gator rocked out of the box but the Caiman being a sensitive soul needs a bit more tinkering me thinks. No pain no GAIN and all that (im sure theres a pun in theres somewhere) :)
StanleyB
02-02-2011, 13:40
Can someone more knowledgeable than myself please clarify if a gain problem will affect headphones?
I thought I had :scratch:.
Audioslave
02-02-2011, 14:17
I thought I had :scratch:.
Not to my knowlege stan. From the email you sent to me, it just refences the gain into the amp...extract from email as follows....
"From your description it appears that the gain of the Gator is too high for your amp. The Caiman output is about 80% higher than the TC-7520 in stock form as it is.
Send the Caiman back and I'll reduce the gain."
Also stan, i keep getting error messages saying my emails to you are delayed...i hope they are reaching you.
Done a bit of listening now, and the Caiman-Gator has been powered up seven hours.
As I said, better piano tone.
With the Gator the Caiman seems to have more clarity and is less aggressive, though it was neither clouded nor abrasive before. I am always wary of subjective descriptions (my engineering background!), but the 'picture' projected by my little Neutron 4s seems bigger, deeper and more convincing. I look forward to hearing what the Gator will do on my big system in Nicosia.
I have now listened to the news and a Feature Film with energetic soundtrack. Speech is better, and the film soundtrack seemed to have more life and more size.
Verdict: An improved sound - a worthwhile purchase.
Back in Nicosia: Caiman-Gator is driving the Quad 405-2 and the big Quart floor-standers.
Of course it is difficult to make a judgement because I have not listened on this system for six weeks, but yes, tis better. Cleaner, clearer, more controlled.
Judged by listening to some tracks I know very well.
On refurbishment the Quad 405 had its input sensitivity reduced to what is normal for today. The Caiman is driving the 405 with the volume control in the centre of its range. That's fine.
Good work, Stan. It does what you say:
The sizeable improvements from both the fixed and variable outputs are noticeable within the first few seconds of playing music through the Gator. Speaker output is far more extended, with a more energetic and punchy bass. Treble is also less edgy and more natural. Soundstage is wider and open, with no hint of a veil.
StanleyB
02-02-2011, 16:13
Not to my knowlege stan. From the email you sent to me, it just refences the gain into the amp...extract from email as follows....
"From your description it appears that the gain of the Gator is too high for your amp. The Caiman output is about 80% higher than the TC-7520 in stock form as it is.
Send the Caiman back and I'll reduce the gain."
Also stan, i keep getting error messages saying my emails to you are delayed...i hope they are reaching you.
:rolleyes:.
The emails are not reaching me, and neither has the DAC.
Audioslave
02-02-2011, 16:49
:rolleyes:.
The emails are not reaching me, and neither has the DAC.
The dac hasnt been sent because you only wanted the gator returned lol.
"Hi Ben,
I need the Gator since that's the one that needs the gain reduced. So if anything just send me the Gator only.
Stan"
Ill try emailing again and if i have problems will PM on AoS.
StanleyB
02-02-2011, 16:56
OK send it back and I'll issue you with a refund right away :).
Audioslave
02-02-2011, 23:33
OK send it back and I'll issue you with a refund right away :).
Unfortunately its still distorting with the original op amp board, so will return it tomorrow as agreed Stan. Bit of a shame but hey, ya win some, ya lose some.:violin:
StanleyB
03-02-2011, 08:05
You did mention in an email that it was working fine with the original board. It's probably gone up the creek from all that board swapping, but there you go.
Audioslave
03-02-2011, 12:35
You did mention in an email that it was working fine with the original board. It's probably gone up the creek from all that board swapping, but there you go.
Stan, with all due respect, I have never said the caiman ever worked. I can paste in my original e-mail to you but i wont resort to such folly. My tc-7520 worked fine from the start and have given you full credit for that, but the caiman has never worked.
Also stan i e-mailed you last night requesting your return address but have had another delayed error message and no reply. I cant see it listed on your website either. The caiman is packed up ready to go awaiting address. Anyway, im sure other people on the forum would like to hear about users that are working and are enjoying their upgrades instead of us bickering. Please for the love of audio, lets move on...life's too short.
Kind regards
foryoume
12-04-2011, 05:37
{Removed}
Hi "Stepan", if you can't write anything sensible here, then I'll have to delete your account.
StanleyB
12-04-2011, 10:08
Stan, with all due respect, I have never said the caiman ever worked.
Hi Ben,
with so many people with similar first names emailing me with sometimes similar problems or questions, and then coming on forums to continue bits of discussions I am getting lost in all of this. So from now on I am not answering any personal business related questions or responding to emails on AoS. It's not my forum to treat as I wish or to allow my customers to treat as a messaging service to me.
I don't know why you are having problems sending me emails. Nobody else does. I don't know which Ben on AoS is trying to email me, but if you can PM me your email address and full name so that I know which Ben you are, instead of typing a reply on the forum it would be helpful to everyone :).
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