Cartridge Renewal Due

[Rush2112]

So its nearly time to start looking at the replacement for my Koetsu Rosewood Signature, budget is tight to be honest, could stretch to a straight replacement but the intention was to upgrade to the Urushi which is not, unfortunately, within budget. Turntable PT Anniversary SE and SME V.

All suggestions welcome ?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230228/54216cfa82cccf5175f2d477d82011ae.jpg

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[CageyH]

Why not get it retipped?

[Rush2112]

Possibly but not sure who would be the right people to do it, you hear horror stories of bodged jobs !

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[walpurgis]

Speak to Goldring. They undertake repairs and retipping for many other makes and have a decent reputation.

[Rush2112]

Thanks.

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[CageyH]

Food for thought - https://www.hifiwigwam.com/threads/where-in-the-uk-to-get-a-koetsu-cartridge-retip.67813/

https://www.northwestanalogue.com/cartridge-repairs.html

[Rush2112]

Has anybody used the, the Expert Stylus & Cartridge Company ?

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[struth]

a thread here might help..

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?46490-Cartridge-Repairs-Retipping-and-Replacement-Styli-Suppliers-A-list!

[CageyH]

I read on the HFW thread that ESCO bond on a paratrace stylus.

[hifi_dave]

If your precious Koetsu is re-tipped by any company/person other than Koetsu, it won't sound the way it did. Might be great but it won't sound like your Koetsu.

[mbic]

Yes, I used them some ago, very good I found, throughly recommended.
Mike B.

[Rush2112]

If your precious Koetsu is re-tipped by any company/person other than Koetsu, it won't sound the way it did. Might be great but it won't sound like your Koetsu.That's my dilemma so probably look to part ex ? Also have a Ortofon MC3000mk2 to sell so it all depends on funds. The short list is Jasmine Audio Tiger, ART20, Benz Micro LPS, Hana Umami, Koetsu Urushi.

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[CageyH]

Have you contacted Koetsu direct to see how much they charge?
It won’t be difficult to post it direct.

[Rush2112]

Many thanks.

[Rush2112]

Well re-tip seems to be around £300 by the Expert Stylus Company if no other work is required to the cartridge which seems very reasonable. My only caveat is that it will of course sound different due in no small part to the different stylus profile, which in ESC case is a Paratrace, whereas, Northwest Analogue would fit a Fritz Gyger profile. Goldring replacement service starts at £300, just waiting for their reply with more details.

[CageyH]

I think I would go with a FGS over a Paratrace.

[Nigel]

Do Koetsu offer any trade in discount?

[struth]

I think I would go with a FGS over a Paratrace.

inclined to agree

[Pigmy Pony]

I think I would go with a FGS over a Paratrace.

I remember Robbiegong going with FGS re-tip a couple of times, he was more than happy with them.

[Barry]

There is a difference between profiles of the FG2 and the FGS:

FG2

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/download/file.php?id=51864&sid=c59cb84196147a58f55ffeca24df8dc3&mode=view

and FGS

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/download/file.php?id=51865&sid=c59cb84196147a58f55ffeca24df8dc3&mode=view


The FG2 is essentially a 6 x 70um elliptical, whereas the FGS is a 5 x 70um trapezoid.

[Rush2112]

Do Koetsu offer any trade in discount?Hi Nigel,

Just waiting for a reply on a return to Koetsu rebuild.

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[Rush2112]

I have had a dealer offer me part exchange but then I could perhaps see if I can better that on e-bay etc,.

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[Rush2112]

So my Ortofon MC3000mk2 and Koetsu are up for sale, lets see what happens !

[Nigel]

Did Koetsu ever reply?

[Barry]

Yes - what have you decided to do Mark?

[Rush2112]

Yes - what have you decided to do Mark?Hi Barry, still waiting on a reply from Lewis at KJ West One !

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[Rush2112]

My likely scenario's give or take a rebuild or selling the Ortofon and Koetsu are:

At the lower "cost" end it is either a Jasmine Audio Tiger or the new Hana Umami Blue, the Tiger I know punches well above its price point and expect the Blue will too.

Mid ground, like for like replacement (part ex, etc).

On the higher side a Micro Benz LP-S or Hana Umami Red or Jasmine Audio Dragon. The LP-S is regarded as punching well above its price point the Dragon too.

Sadly the Koetsu Urushi is out of reach at £4,999 ! This would for me be my ultimate cartridge and at a point where "diminishing returns" on a item (with a relatively short life) really kicks in !

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230309/8a7b72f0e9e05fdf6449693b7eb5ffe0.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230309/edc3a18f5cbdc882e9dc63c88a546e12.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230309/2fdc31b08238fbb8a7b6979db151a1b4.jpg

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[mikeyb]

Just get it retipped, my Black Goldline is retipped and I know at least 2 other people have said to me that it doesn't sound any different to the standard tip.

Is it now a Koetsu? Yes and No, but that will only be an issue if I ever came to sell it which knowing how it sounds won't happen. I'll just get it retipped again, damn site cheaper that replacing.

There are plenty technicians out there that can do the work, will it be any less skilled work than Koetsu can do, nope. If you want to retip it the with the same tip, what difference does it make who did it.

[AJSki2fly]

My likely scenario's give or take a rebuild or selling the Ortofon and Koetsu are:

At the lower "cost" end it is either a Jasmine Audio Tiger or the new Hana Umami Blue, the Tiger I know punches well above its price point and expect the Blue will too.

Mid ground, like for like replacement (part ex, etc).

On the higher side a Micro Benz LP-S or Hana Umami Red or Jasmine Audio Dragon. The LP-S is regarded as punching well above its price point the Dragon too.

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I have a Micro Benz LP-S and can vouch that it is a super, super cartridge, the difference between a cartridge like this say a £1K Hana, or Phasemation PP-200 or PP-300 is quite a leap (not that any of them are bad cartridges). I have tried the Hana SL and PP-300 at home.

Another thought you might want to consider a Phasemation PP-500 which at just under £2K is reported as an exceptionally good cartridge, and if anything like the PP-300 will be very good. The owner at "https://ammonite-audio.co.uk/" is a great chap and used to loan some cartridges out, so could be worth giving him a call.

I also have a Michel Cusis which is actually a Micro Benz Wood S(I believe) in a composite body made for Michel, this is also an excellent cartridge, not quite the same level of detail and refinement as the LP-S, I would say equivalent in SQ to a PP-300.

Not knowing what you have, another thing to consider is how good your phono stage amp is, if you enter the world of the +£2K cartridge, don't assume your phono stage will be up to the job, it will sound better but you might not get everything the cartridge can extract. I have used 4 phono stages with my LP-S and I was quite surprised at how detail I had been missing when I purchased the current one and also the same with on-board phono stage in my Krell pre-amp.

I got back into vinyl 8-9 years ago, and started out with a used Pro-Ject Experience II, Ortofon Rondo Blue MC and Camprbridge 540P phono amp from a friend all for £600, this has evolved into the vinyl replay set up that I have today, it cost in the order of £10K, that's Cartridge, Phono-cable, turntable and phono stage, a lot of money really, but you could easily spend 2 or 3 times that and not hear much improvement. I went through 2 other turntables, 2 arms and 4 phono stages. A friend uses an LP-S with SME 20/3, SME V arm, £1K of cable, and a £13.5K phono stage, if brought new about £30K outlay. IMO opinion it may only have very slightly more detail/depth, but it is very subjective. So it can be a slippery and expensive slope but if you get it right for your ears can be very rewarding.

One another note you mention 'on an item (with a relatively short life)', there is a great deal of pooh written about cartridge and stylus life IMO. I believe Ortofon say that a well cared for stylus that is regularly cleaned before playing records and is used on clean records should last at least 2000 hours or more, several other manufactures say similar. I know of several people who have sent cartridges off for inspection/re-tipping to manufacturers at around 1000 hours and they have just been returned being told that there is nothing wrong with stylus or cartridge. If you consider an LP is generally 40 minutes long then if 2000 hours use is the limit this is the equivalent of playing 3000 albums. So even playing 2 LPs a day, every day of the year it should a cartridge should be good for 4 years, which is not terrible. I suspect most people will struggle to play 500 LPs a year.

I hope my ramblings help a bit, vinyl replay is not easy to get right, as I found out.

[Rush2112]

Hi Adrian, Thanks for the cartridge advice, the Benz is certainly a strong possibility, I see it as competing well above my current Koetsu Rosewood and in the same arena as a Rosewood Signature or above based on reviewer comments. This would be the same story for the Jasmine Audio Dragon from reviewer comments, not sure where the Hana Umami Red then sits which at over £3k would be good to know.

I have no worries with my phono stage, already using a £2,500 cartridge and the Iota Audio Design Signature Reference is a dual mono fully balanced phono stage more than capable of being in the company of anything from Krell, Audio Research, EAR etc, costing several times more. Turntable is PT Anniversary SE with SME V arm, amplification is Krell KRC3 and FPB200c driving Martin Logan Electromotion X speakers and Sonus Faber Gravis subwoofer.

Life span of the cartridge is as you say more than most people realise, however, a Urushi at £4,995 would possibly be £1,250 a year, over £100 a month, so anything above £5,000 is, for me, just too much to consider as an acceptable cost for the gain in sound quality. The law of diminishing returns steps in.

[Jimbo]

I have a Micro Benz LP-S and can vouch that it is a super, super cartridge, the difference between a cartridge like this say a £1K Hana, or Phasemation PP-200 or PP-300 is quite a leap (not that any of them are bad cartridges). I have tried the Hana SL and PP-300 at home.

Another thought you might want to consider a Phasemation PP-500 which at just under £2K is reported as an exceptionally good cartridge, and if anything like the PP-300 will be very good. The owner at "https://ammonite-audio.co.uk/" is a great chap and used to loan some cartridges out, so could be worth giving him a call.

I also have a Michel Cusis which is actually a Micro Benz Wood S(I believe) in a composite body made for Michel, this is also an excellent cartridge, not quite the same level of detail and refinement as the LP-S, I would say equivalent in SQ to a PP-300.

Not knowing what you have, another thing to consider is how good your phono stage amp is, if you enter the world of the +£2K cartridge, don't assume your phono stage will be up to the job, it will sound better but you might not get everything the cartridge can extract. I have used 4 phono stages with my LP-S and I was quite surprised at how detail I had been missing when I purchased the current one and also the same with on-board phono stage in my Krell pre-amp.

I got back into vinyl 8-9 years ago, and started out with a used Pro-Ject Experience II, Ortofon Rondo Blue MC and Camprbridge 540P phono amp from a friend all for £600, this has evolved into the vinyl replay set up that I have today, it cost in the order of £10K, that's Cartridge, Phono-cable, turntable and phono stage, a lot of money really, but you could easily spend 2 or 3 times that and not hear much improvement. I went through 2 other turntables, 2 arms and 4 phono stages. A friend uses an LP-S with SME 20/3, SME V arm, £1K of cable, and a £13.5K phono stage, if brought new about £30K outlay. IMO opinion it may only have very slightly more detail/depth, but it is very subjective. So it can be a slippery and expensive slope but if you get it right for your ears can be very rewarding.

One another note you mention 'on an item (with a relatively short life)', there is a great deal of pooh written about cartridge and stylus life IMO. I believe Ortofon say that a well cared for stylus that is regularly cleaned before playing records and is used on clean records should last at least 2000 hours or more, several other manufactures say similar. I know of several people who have sent cartridges off for inspection/re-tipping to manufacturers at around 1000 hours and they have just been returned being told that there is nothing wrong with stylus or cartridge. If you consider an LP is generally 40 minutes long then if 2000 hours use is the limit this is the equivalent of playing 3000 albums. So even playing 2 LPs a day, every day of the year it should a cartridge should be good for 4 years, which is not terrible. I suspect most people will struggle to play 500 LPs a year.

I hope my ramblings help a bit, vinyl replay is not easy to get right, as I found out.

Some good information there Adrian regarding MC cartridges. I had heard the Phasemation were very good. I heard a Micro Benz Gullwing sometime back and thought it sounded superb. Where does the Benz LP-S sit in their line up?

Interesting that you mention Ortofon suggesting their cartridges were good for 2000 hours playing very clean vinyl. I can certainly vouch for 1500 hours without noticeable drop off in SQ. I have leant a few out with 1000 hours on them and had no complaints from the chaps who have used them. I will try and push on for 2000 hours and see how they fair.:)

[walpurgis]

I wish I'd had my ZYX Yatra retipped. It sounded really lovely, but the diamond fell off and of course vanished. Sold it off cheaply out of frustration!

[AJSki2fly]

Hi Adrian, Thanks for the cartridge advice, the Benz is certainly a strong possibility, I see it as competing well above my current Koetsu Rosewood and in the same arena as a Rosewood Signature or above based on reviewer comments. This would be the same story for the Jasmine Audio Dragon from reviewer comments, not sure where the Hana Umami Red then sits which at over £3k would be good to know.

I have no worries with my phono stage, already using a £2,500 cartridge and the Iota Audio Design Signature Reference is a dual mono fully balanced phono stage more than capable of being in the company of anything from Krell, Audio Research, EAR etc, costing several times more. Turntable is PT Anniversary SE with SME V arm, amplification is Krell KRC3 and FPB200c driving Martin Logan Electromotion X speakers and Sonus Faber Gravis subwoofer.

Life span of the cartridge is as you say more than most people realise, however, a Urushi at £4,995 would possibly be £1,250 a year, over £100 a month, so anything above £5,000 is, for me, just too much to consider as an acceptable cost for the gain in sound quality. The law of diminishing returns steps in.

Nice system Mark, I think you told me before you had the PT Anniversary, I very nearly went for one.

I was also tempted by a one of these about 2 years ago, https://etsurojapan.com/product/bordeaux it had about another 5% on the LP-S, everything sounded more real, if that makes sense, I heard one in a rather good system. I was offered a used one with 100hrs on it for £5K which was a just before they went up in price, I think now about £8.5K.:eek:

[Rush2112]

Nice system Mark, I think you told me before you had the PT Anniversary, I very nearly went for one.

I was also tempted by a one of these about 2 years ago, https://etsurojapan.com/product/bordeaux it had about another 5% on the LP-S, everything sounded more real, if that makes sense, I heard one in a rather good system. I was offered a used one with 100hrs on it for £5K which was a just before they went up in price, I think now about £8.5K.:eek:Very nice but I agree at that price point it is down to the rest of the system being in the same league too! So not for me unless my lottery numbers come up. [emoji1787]

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[Rush2112]

Well the Koetsu is sold and Ortofon have offered €449.75 euros against a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze or higher on thier exchange scheme if I buy a new Ortofon. So the decision is now what do I buy and will the Ortofon sell too?

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