View Full Version : Bigbottle Audio BB3 valve rolling
I know a few people on here own one, so I am interested to know what you have tried, and what works best for you?
1 - RT ECC83 and 2x Siemens PCC88
2 - TFK83 & 2x Tungsram PCC88
3 - TFK & TFK
1 is what I currently have fitted, except it is a 12AX7S
I am trying the 2nd combination now.
Have you ever compared your BB3 with the Kin phono stage Kev? I wandered if there were any similarities as Alan designed both? Or it maybe closer to the Vivant?
My Kin is not far from a Vivant.
The BB3 is the one I prefer.
I do sometimes switch my SS pre for the Kin, when I fancy a change.
I am also tempted to add a 2nd TT, so I would plumb the Kin back in the system if I did that so that I would not have to switch cables.
I think Alan has learnt more along the way when designing his phono stages. Each one seems better, which is why I don’t want to hear a BBU.
This morning, I started with the TFK ECC83 and Tungsram PCC88. Very nice.
I swapped the TFK ECC83 for a Tungsram ECC83 foil getter, and I much preferred this.
I now how a 50s Tesla ECC83 foil getter with Tesla “32” PCC88 and I am very happy with this. Is it better than the Tungsram valve compliment?
I can’t remember! :doh: :lol:
My Kin is not far from a Vivant.
The BB3 is the one I prefer.
I do sometimes switch my SS pre for the Kin, when I fancy a change.
I am also tempted to add a 2nd TT, so I would plumb the Kin back in the system if I did that so that I would not have to switch cables.
I think Alan has learnt more along the way when designing his phono stages. Each one seems better, which is why I don’t want to hear a BBU.
More Jfets?:).
The BB3 hybrid phono really relies on the JFets in order to operate with MC as valves would be too noisy. So not really sure if your really hearing the Fets or the tubes?
I am actually thinking of going all SS for an alternative Phono stage which I think may happen very soon - I will keep you posted;) Obviously I will still use a tube preamp although again I think a buffered SS preamp could be on the cards some day. Definitely would not bother with a passive preamp.
I would really like to hear the differences between a SS vs Tube vs SS/tube phono and a SS passive vs SS buffered vs tube preamp and combinations of each of them to ascertain which sounds the best and to know where tubes really shine.
Following on from this I can only say in my opinion having an all tube phono and preamp the tubes in the phono make a huge difference but the tubes in the regulation stage less so. So a tube phono and SS preamp maybe the way to go? I don't know until I try.
The sound with different valves is different, and I am currently using my modified AT95SA, so I am not sure if the JFETs are involved?
I have some very good SS phono stages available if I want to try one, with a choice of two upgraded linear power supplies.
I contacted Oliver about the Bigbottle 3, one of the questions i asked was what the Jfets do. From his email >
"Hi Zander,
The BB3 has 4x JFETs per channel, which is used for MC gain only. This results in an extremely quiet MC input, which would not be possible if valves were used for this gain (we tried). The other option was to use small SUT's, but there are a lot of variables in that approach and it's not as universal as one would like."
I replied and asked if you could "hear them" From his email>
"Hi Zander
"hear them" as in are they noisy, or are they having an effect of the sound?
All electronics produce noise, regardless of how good they are. The implementation of how they are used makes a difference, and in the case of the BB3 & BBU (4x Jfets also) any noise they make is completely below the SNR limit of the medium of vinyl, which is about -72db. The Jfets do have a sound though, and i can't say otherwise. We have tried a fair few Jfets (all that we could find) for their sonic influence and suitability and didn't take the choice lightly. The Jfets in the BB3 are inaudible in terms of noise, and in terms of sonic impact, they were far less audible than any SUT combination we tried"
More Jfets?:).
The BB3 hybrid phono really relies on the JFets in order to operate with MC as valves would be too noisy. So not really sure if your really hearing the Fets or the tubes?
I am actually thinking of going all SS for an alternative Phono stage which I think may happen very soon - I will keep you posted;) Obviously I will still use a tube preamp although again I think a buffered SS preamp could be on the cards some day. Definitely would not bother with a passive preamp.
I would really like to hear the differences between a SS vs Tube vs SS/tube phono and a SS passive vs SS buffered vs tube preamp and combinations of each of them to ascertain which sounds the best and to know where tubes really shine.
Following on from this I can only say in my opinion having an all tube phono and preamp the tubes in the phono make a huge difference but the tubes in the regulation stage less so. So a tube phono and SS preamp maybe the way to go? I don't know until I try.
Contact Oliver @Bigbottle. He had a buffer SS preamplifier and a SS phonostage and has Valve equipment too. He let me take my equipment over and listen to it and a Bigbottle 3. He was also very helpful when i bought a used Bigbottle 3. He is not far away from Birmingham.
Thanks, so no JFETs involved in MM, so I am only “hearing” the difference (or not ;)) in the valves.
My ears are the wrong colour I think, skin tone rather than golden.
I have an EI ECC83 and Siemens PCC88s fitted, and it is still very good, possibly a tiny bit less good than a real TFK ECC83.
I think I am almost at a point where I am going to stop worrying, and just chuck something I like in there, and be done with it.
Thanks, so no JFETs involved in MM, so I am only “hearing” the difference (or not ;)) in the valves.
My ears are the wrong colour I think, skin tone rather than golden.
I have an EI ECC83 and Siemens PCC88s fitted, and it is still very good, possibly a tiny bit less good than a real TFK ECC83.
I think I am almost at a point where I am going to stop worrying, and just chuck something I like in there, and be done with it.
Oliver said "MC Only" so the Jfets are not on if i understand it right. I also read on DIYAUDIO that the JFETs are not on in MM.
I would be interested to know if you are listening to the JFets or valves or probably both when in MC use and in which case are the JFets contributing more to the sound rather than the valves?
But if only using MM then I suppose the BB3 can be switched to work valve only?
I have a huge stock of valves here now after years of collecting and even now I am after more! They do certainly make a difference to the sound but I think not as huge as folk imagine. I recently had a huge bake off with 12BH7a valves in my line stage with about 8 different valves from RCA, Westinghouse, Brimar, GE, JJ, Electro Harmonix, Sylvania and Philips in my line stage and I got frustrated because I know not all of them were measuring full power and some were very old and some still almost new. Did my nut in as I did here strengths and weaknesses with all of them but I really only found one that seemed to tick nearly all the boxes.
Differences were small in many cases and I had to choose one I could live with day to day.
You would not have this problem with SS!:lol:
I agree. The differences are small.
With the Siemens PCC88 fitted, I would struggle to tell which ECC83 was fitted at any one time.
They may be more pronounced with a MC cartridge fitted. I shall have to try.
I would be interested to know if you are listening to the JFets or valves or probably both when in MC use and in which case are the JFets contributing more to the sound rather than the valves?
But if only using MM then I suppose the BB3 can be switched to work valve only?
I have a huge stock of valves here now after years of collecting and even now I am after more! They do certainly make a difference to the sound but I think not as huge as folk imagine. I recently had a huge bake off with 12BH7a valves in my line stage with about 8 different valves from RCA, Westinghouse, Brimar, GE, JJ, Electro Harmonix, Sylvania and Philips in my line stage and I got frustrated because I know not all of them were measuring full power and some were very old and some still almost new. Did my nut in as I did here strengths and weaknesses with all of them but I really only found one that seemed to tick nearly all the boxes.
Differences were small in many cases and I had to choose one I could live with day to day.
You would not have this problem with SS!:lol:
I asked, i think you can ask him directly as you know him - he said so.
"Hi Zander!
Busy today? lol
The JFET is being used as an amplifier. It is creating gain by amplifying the signal it receives from the MC cartridge. The JFET will be higher in SNR, lower in distortion and lower THD+N than any of the valves in the phonostage, and that means it's influence is far less than the valve stage itself. The amplified signal from the JFET (MM Signal level now for simplicity) is then fed into the rest of the circuitry which is responsible for RIAA equalisation and so-on.
Are you listening to the Jfet?
Well, Any device at the front end of a MC phonostage is effectively responsible for what the rest of the circuit sees, as it is adding gain. Be that via JFets, SUTs, Opamps etc, they all take 100% of the signal and amplify it BEFORE the phonostage circuitry gets it. Unless you use MM, there is simply no way to use a MC cartridge without some form of amplification device on the front end.
With Jfets and opamps, the effect of them is simple, the better they do their job, the less audible they become. An opamp with THD+N of 0.00024% is not going to have any negative effect on the THD+N figure you would get from a MM valve Phonostage, as that figure would likely swamp a quality Jfet or Opamp. My honest opinion is that the Jfet that we use for the BB3 is the 3rd most inaudible gain device we have heard, the 2nd being the JFET in the BBU (Higher grade JFET), and top of the pile is the Opamp we use in the Avalon Phonostage. IF anyone thinks the Jfet is more influential to sound than a valve, they would need to provide some never before seen measurements!
Have a look here:
https://www.vtadiy.com/home/tube-amplifiers/il-terzo-12ax7-el84/12ax7-vacuum-tube-comparison/
Oh, BTW....tell these "forum people" to email me. I don't bite! lol and say Hi from me. :)
Oliver"
I asked, i think you can ask him directly as you know him - he said so.
"Hi Zander!
Busy today? lol
The JFET is being used as an amplifier. It is creating gain by amplifying the signal it receives from the MC cartridge. The JFET will be higher in SNR, lower in distortion and lower THD+N than any of the valves in the phonostage, and that means it's influence is far less than the valve stage itself. The amplified signal from the JFET (MM Signal level now for simplicity) is then fed into the rest of the circuitry which is responsible for RIAA equalisation and so-on.
Are you listening to the Jfet?
Well, Any device at the front end of a MC phonostage is effectively responsible for what the rest of the circuit sees, as it is adding gain. Be that via JFets, SUTs, Opamps etc, they all take 100% of the signal and amplify it BEFORE the phonostage circuitry gets it. Unless you use MM, there is simply no way to use a MC cartridge without some form of amplification device on the front end.
With Jfets and opamps, the effect of them is simple, the better they do their job, the less audible they become. An opamp with THD+N of 0.00024% is not going to have any negative effect on the THD+N figure you would get from a MM valve Phonostage, as that figure would likely swamp a quality Jfet or Opamp. My honest opinion is that the Jfet that we use for the BB3 is the 3rd most inaudible gain device we have heard, the 2nd being the JFET in the BBU (Higher grade JFET), and top of the pile is the Opamp we use in the Avalon Phonostage. IF anyone thinks the Jfet is more influential to sound than a valve, they would need to provide some never before seen measurements!
Have a look here:
https://www.vtadiy.com/home/tube-amplifiers/il-terzo-12ax7-el84/12ax7-vacuum-tube-comparison/
Oh, BTW....tell these "forum people" to email me. I don't bite! lol and say Hi from me. :)
Oliver"
Hi Zander, I do know Oli. Thanks for passing on the info.
I agree. The differences are small.
With the Siemens PCC88 fitted, I would struggle to tell which ECC83 was fitted at any one time.
They may be more pronounced with a MC cartridge fitted. I shall have to try.
Maybe get someone to pop the different valves in for you and blind listen. Now that would be interesting?:)
Oh, we know Oliver… :wave:
I was just interested to see if there were any sensibly priced ECC83 or PCC88 I may have overlooked.
Maybe get someone to pop the different valves in for you and blind listen. Now that would be interesting?:)
Little chance of that happening.
The wife would probably forget to turn the BB3 off, or bend a pin as it won’t fit. :lol:
I think I have found a combination that works really well.
The 1950s foil getter Tesla ECC83 and the Siemens PCC88.
I may see how much the Tesla is going for these days. I bet it will be a shock to the system.
I have just fitted the XX2, and this combination sounds sublime.
I think I will give it a run for a while.
I think I have found a combination that works really w
The 1950s foil getter Tesla ECC83 and the Siemens PCC88.
I may see how much the Tesla is going for these days. I bet it will be a shock to the system.
Yes Teslas now going for eye watering price.
I am trying to find out what the sonic difference is between the Tesla ECC803S and the Tesla ECC83 frame grid, which is the copy of the TFK803S. The Tube Amp Doctor has the Tesla “Frame Grid” ECC83 in stock, and as I only need one of these valves in my BB3, I am tempted to pay the asking price.
The question is, will it really make a noticeable difference over some already good valves?
Answer found here - https://jacmusic.com/techcorner/ARTICLES/English/Portraits/E83CC/ECC83-part-numbering1.html
The long plate Tesla ECC803S is basically the Tesla version of the long plate TFK ECC83.
I thought that would be the case but I would still be intrigued to know what the difference would be in sound?
I am intrigued to know as well, but not enough to buy them at about €90 each for a good one.
Interesting thread here as well - https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?1210-Search-for-the-ultimate-12AX7-ECC83-valves
My two Brimar CV4004 arrived today.
I have one fitted and it sounds great. I am starting to wonder if it is worth spending €150 on one valve, as the differences in all of the valves I have is subtle. There are no extreme differences to be heard.
Brimars do sound very good indeed but some folk find them a bit dark. I think they have a good balance between detail and warmth.
If you are not getting a huge difference between valves I don't think I would spend 150 Euros on one valve. Some equipment is more sensitive to valve rolling than others which maybe why you are not experiencing a big difference?
That is why I went for a cheaper valve first. Something completely different.
There is a difference between the valves, but it is not massive, certainly not €150 big.
Listening on fairly neutral headphones last night confirmed three is a difference in the sound is the ECC83 when running Siemens PCC88 in the V1 and V3 positions. Things like my Mazda triple Micra sopilver plate sounded leaner than the Brimar CV4004, and also appeared to have a little more air around the instruments.
The differences may be more obvious with a different PCC88, so I will try them later.
I am still not convinced that I need a €150 valve though. It has been stated on the inter web on a few sites that the Mazda is very similar sounding to the TFK ECC803S. How true this is, I have no way of knowing.
I found the Brimar has a full fat midrange and great with vocals but this was comparing 12BH7a tube. The ECC83 has the same characteristics though. I think Brimar were had a sound in between Mullards and TFK/Tesla.
Not tried a Mazda but I have read reports they sound great.
Mazda sell for silly money now, as do most valves, it seems.
Mazda sell for silly money now, as do most valves, it seems.
I don't know why they have all gone up in price but it maybe the younger headphone brigade who are using a lot of small headphone tube amps?
I am giving up on looking for better valves.
I think I am deaf.
I now have a Matsushita 7DJ8 in V1, a triple mica 6N2P in V2 and a Philips PCC189 in V3 and it is subtly different.
What have I learnt from this little exercise? The BB3 sounds good with almost any valve combination I throw at it, with subtle changes in the sound.
The recent tests have been using my XX2, into the BB3, feeding the Topping Pre 90, into the Solo UL headphone amp and Sennheisser HD540 reference headphones.
I don't know why they have all gone up in price but it maybe the younger headphone brigade who are using a lot of small headphone tube amps?
I think people are cashing in on the demand.
I have now gone back to some decent valves, Siemens PCC88 and the Brimar CV4004, and the difference with the PCC88, 6N2P and PCC189 is obvious, but I have switched back to MI/MM. I don’t think a €150 valve is going to give me much more though.
It is time to bolt the lid back on, and enjoy the music.
I ought to try some Siemens.
Today a Silver Plate Mazda 12AX7A got delivered, as my old Mazda 12AX7S “went cloudy”.
This one has the following codes - VI-2, 6210, AXA, so French made.
I am just waiting for 4 spare RSD (Tunsgram manufacture, I believe) PCC88 to arrive, as I got the 4 cheap.
That should do me for a while….
It seems that the PCC88 are actually Tesla manufacture. Still a good result for what I paid for them.
They look identical to my Tesla, and don’t have the “date plates” associated with Tungsram valves.
Today the postie delivered something a bit special.
A CIFTE 12AX7S triple mica, chrome plate valve.
The BB3 now has a full compliment of CIFTE valves, and is sounding mighty fine.
I really should stop valve shopping now.
Kinda addictive valve rolling?:)
I always wanted to try a chrome plate triple mica, and now I have. ;)
I always wanted to try a chrome plate triple mica, and now I have. ;)
Actually, this is my second one. The first one died, and went cloudy. :(
And today a new ECC83 arrived.
A Philips I65 Herleen manufactured tube, from January 1962 if I have the Delta2A4 code correct.
A bargain for the 14 it cost me.
And now with the Philips Herleen PCC88 in the BB3, it sounds great. A nice combination of valves.
It has been 11 months since I changed the valves in my BB3. I think that is a new record for me.
I have also not looked at buying any more valves since the Philips ECC83 above. Also a record for me.
The Philips we’re doing a great job, but I changed back to the CIFTE combo today, as I was inside the case on dust removal duties.
Temptation got the better of me.
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