Analougue to Digital set up.

[Vinyl Grinder]

I'll start this here as I fear my post may get lost in the Lossless Topic:

I've been interested in FLAC for quite some time.

I do appreciate convenience most times, especially when I've had a drink & don't want to touch my precious vinyl! but just can't stand the sound of CD regardless what machine. So CD's are quite clearly out of the picture.What i'd be very intrested in is conecting my phonostage to PC as to convert the vinyl into FLAC files, using the files then for listerning.Ive actually heard a vinyl record put straight on to CD-r & could'nt believe the difference against the same commercial CD release.Although it's still a CD copy it sound pretty much like vinyl all the same.This got me all excited to say the least.

So chaps whats the best way to go about it. Outboard processing 24/96 or sound card before amplification? (This is to be a serious set up not a PC based boys bedroom rig).

I got Dinosaur ways to a certain extent chaps so go easy.

[Steve Toy]

Some kind of analogue to digital conversion is needed. I wonder if you could copy onto CDR using a CDR machine as you did before and then burn that disc to a pc.

[Vinyl Grinder]

Steve:
I was thinking Phonostage to some kind of high end outboard A/D convertor, i want to avoid the CD-r route & transfer directly onto outboard hard drive (via PC obviously),The FLAC conversion is no problem to me.I was planning keeping laptop in the system perminent to select file when required.

Was wondering about the best sounding sound cards also as this is an important factor.! M Audio seem well respected within the Recording Studio industry!

[Filterlab]

M Audio is very good stuff indeed. I use an M Audio master keyboard which is USB and MIDI equipped. Never given me a moments trouble and now it's has collaborated with Apple the prices have come down slightly.

[Rick O]

You also need M Audio sound processors if you are to use ProTools... which is the software most professional recording studios use.

Of all the lossless formats, Apple lossless I've found is the best. FLAC has the advantage of being open source, but to be honest, I would recommend against transferring from vinyl to compressed-digital. It will diminish the sound quality considerably.

[Vinyl Grinder]

I would recommend against transferring from vinyl to compressed-digital. It will diminish the sound quality considerably.

FLAC is lossless no diminishing of the original sound.

Thing is Rick i would be quite happy to dump Vinyl altogether but for what? Commercial bought CD sounds dreadful & now there making them louder & machines louder totally out of the question. I transfer from vinyl to CD-r sounds far superior, no edginess at all.Thing is i don't want loads of CD-r' hanging about so i'd rather transfer to lossless files for easy access.

Another thing is i paid my money to the artists first time around on vinyl, i'll be damned if i'm gonna re-line there pokets re purchasing..Not that i would as already mentioned..This is the only option for me.

[Vinyl Grinder]

Wonder what this is like:

http://www.russandrews.com/lookup/0/region/UK/currency/GBP/customer_id/PAA3165013908537VWSPFIDMOIWZORXQ/article-The-Russ-Andrews-DAC-attack-dacreview.htm

http://www.russandrews.com/lookup/1/region/UK/currency/GBP/customer_id/PAA3165013908537VWSPFIDMOIWZORXQ/article-Black-Magic-world_dacreview.htm

[Rick O]

Unfortunately there will always be errors in data transfers... whether it's technically lossless or lossy. Fortunately computers have got very good error correction for most things. But if you compare an original CD to a ripped FLAC format, you will notice there is a massive difference in sound.

[Marco]

Hi Rick,

I won't argue with you about the errors in data transfers - you know about this subject much more than I do.

However, all I can do is judge with my ears and in the Robson Acoustics room across from yours at the Manchester show the computer audio system they had set up there was very good indeed, to the extent that they ripped Steve's Eagles CD through the computer and when played back through the system using a Benchmark DAC and Nu-Force Class D amps it sounded *much* better than the original CD played through a £2k NAD SACD player using the same system.

I also have a friend who owns a Helios media player, and listening to that streaming lossless FLAC files through his system, the sound quality totally outperformed that of the same music reproduced on CD through his £6k Naim CDS2!

I've still got much to learn about listening to music this way, but it is my opinion that when done properly the potential is phenomenal and much better I feel than any CD player is capable of with its inherent mechanical processes and partnering cables intruding on the signal. Interestingly, Ashley James from AVI has just joined us. His company, of course, has just launched the excellent ADM9, and it will be interesting to have his input into this discussion.

That's the good thing about having informed opinions from all sorts of different people - we can all learn :)

Regards,
Marco.

[Vinyl Grinder]

I also have a friend who owns a Helios media player, and listening to that streaming lossless FLAC files through his system, the sound quality totally outperformed that of the same music reproduced on CD through his £6k Naim CDS2!

I've still got much to learn about listening to music this way, but it is my opinion that when done properly the potential is phenomenal and much better I feel than any CD player is capable of with its inherent mechanical processes and partnering cables intruding on the signal.


Absolutely Marco, i'm not really good at putting down on paper, but the basic transferal of a Vinyl album on CD-r against the same shop bought CD album was enough to open my eyes.I think the trick is to bypass the soundcard in your PC for a start, external Dac & hard drives. Errors in data transferal or not (extremely minimal if at all noticable). What i'm hearing wipes CD clean out of the picture.

[Marco]

Me too! I would keep my modified Sony CDP, but only because it's a classic and quite unique.

The way forward with digital, in my opinion, is high quality computer audio.

Vinyl is a different matter, though. I still feel that ultimately the best sound comes from top-notch vinyl pressings replayed through a high quality turntable and partnering ancillaries. It's a sound that in my opinion no digital set-up can emulate.

Therefore, regardless if I buy a Squeezebox or a media player to embrace the benefits of computer audio, the T/T stays! :)

Marco.

[Vinyl Grinder]

Vinyl is a different matter, though. I still feel that ultimately the best sound comes from top-notch vinyl pressings replayed through a high quality turntable and partnering ancillaries. It's a sound that in my opinion no digital set-up can emulate.



Too right, I just fear for my vinyl's long term especially my 1st issues, I'd rather preserve the longevity of em. I play a crazy amount of vinyl you see. Something has to be done. I'd rather play them less now if I can.

[max-greece]

The subject of vinyl wear during playback gets discussed a lot on forums that I have seen. I do wonder, however, how much of a problem this really is if you have a properly setup TT and the cartridge tip is in decent condition.

Case in point. I have a copy of Pier Gynt on philips that have been played innumerable times (say weekly for 6 years). I really don't notice any degradation on the sound - not that this means there isn't any - maybe my ears have adjusted.

Thing is this. I would hazard a guess that with a proper setup you can probably play a given record 1,000 times before the quality deriorates significantly. I suppose quality is akin to half life here so a lot is going to depend on how fussy the listener is to pops clicks and hiss.

Even if you were to listen to a record every week it would take you 10 years to get to that point - and I am not convinced that point = unlistenable to.

Most used records are in poor condition due to either being dirty or worn through playback on improper equipment and some were simply poorly manufactured. I fully expect to be able to hand my record collection on to my daughter pretty much as is.

[john dolan]

Ive been buying records for close to 40 years and i still play some of the first ones i bought and most of them still sound fine.Dont worry about them wearing out.

[Ashley James]

For a PC an M-Audio 2496 for about £50 will do an excellent job with a program like Audio Companion. The M-Audio transit is an external equivalent and a similar price.

Dolphin Music are probably as competitive as any of them. The Pro Audio industry is far larger than hi fi so prices are lower and performance better on average.

If you have an Apple Laptop then the internal DACs are fine. An LP is the equivalent of a 10 bit CD player and all these convertors are 24 Bit.

I wouldn't bother to burn CDRs, just bung them into iTunes because it has an equaliser to tidy up anything that doesn't appeal.

Use a high bit MP3, say 256K and you'll be amazed at how good the result, if you don't it'll be your hi fi not the MP3 I promise.

Ashley

[pure sound]

I recently picked up a Tascam CD Recorder from ebay which I've been using to put vinyl LP's onto CD for the car. Recording straight off the phono stage output. It is quite surprising how good (& how unlike commercially produced CD's) these are. I'm sure the Tascam doesn't have the last word in A to D conversion hence my enquiry elsewhere about a better ADC. I imagine the results using something proper might get me closer still to the performance of the source. It does raise the question (for me anyway) of how much of what I dislike about many CD's lies not with the format per se or even the machines but what gets put on the disc by whatever means. I borrowed a similar Tascam last year and recorded a live concert with it using some AKG mikes straight into the analogue inputs. Again, it had a fresh, natural & lively quality I don't often hear from 'commercial' cd's.

[Vinyl Grinder]

It does raise the question (for me anyway) of how much of what I dislike about many CD's lies not with the format per se or even the machines but what gets put on the disc by whatever means. I borrowed a similar Tascam last year and recorded a live concert with it using some AKG mikes straight into the analogue inputs. Again, it had a fresh, natural & lively quality I don't often hear from 'commercial' cd's.

O Yes..

[Filterlab]

It does raise the question (for me anyway) of how much of what I dislike about many CD's lies not with the format per se or even the machines but what gets put on the disc by whatever means.

Indeed, and it's a shame that many commercial CDs are not mastered as well as their vinyl counterparts. There are exceptions though, but not many.

[Vinyl Grinder]

Indeed, and it's a shame that many commercial CDs are not mastered as well as their vinyl counterparts. There are exceptions though, but not many.


It's all to do with the high levels the commercial CD has been mastered at, it's so high (-3db) there's no headroom to speak of, so no room for musical peaks, this is why CD sound very loud, shouty & boring.All you are listerning to is harmonic distortion..Once upon a time CD were mastered a -18db which gave ample room for dynamic peaks without distortion, the level has gradually risen over the years for the worse..Commercial CD format will eventually kill it's self. being too loud it will sound no better than MP-3, or is that where it's all heading?....So at the end of the day it's not the format thats at fault it's the bafoons that's putting the music onto them..So that's why your Vinyl onto CD-r sound great, no high levels.

[Filterlab]

It's all to do with the high levels the commercial CD has been mastered at, it's so high (-3db) there's no headroom to speak of, so no room for musical peaks, this is why CD sound very loud, shouty & boring.All you are listerning to is harmonic distortion..Once upon a time CD were mastered a -18db which gave ample room for dynamic peaks without distortion...

I have a copy of Dire Straits 'Brothers in Arms' which is really low on the recording levels (I've analysed it with Audacity) and consequently superb. I have successfully managed to remaster a couple of discs, but it takes a huge amount of time to sort out one track, and then it's only partially destructive editing so never a true good recording, just an untangled one.

There are a few modern artists who are very well recorded, but it's definitely the exception rather than the rule.

[snapper]

It's all to do with the high levels the commercial CD has been mastered at, it's so high (-3db) there's no headroom to speak of, so no room for musical peaks, this is why CD sound very loud, shouty & boring.All you are listerning to is harmonic distortion..Once upon a time CD were mastered a -18db which gave ample room for dynamic peaks without distortion, the level has gradually risen over the years for the worse..Commercial CD format will eventually kill it's self being to loud it will sound no better than MP-3, or is that where it's all heading?....So at the end of the day it's not the format thats at fault it's the bafoons that's putting the music onto them..So that's why your Vinyl onto CD-r sound great, no high levels.

This is why it's a great time time for CD buyers to go to the 2nd hand shops and buy original releases that people have traded for remasters.:)

Original Led Zeppelin CD's and Rolling Stones 60's output on the London label are so superior to the remasters it's frightening.

[snapper]

There are a few modern artists who are very well recorded, but it's definitely the exception rather than the rule.


I find a lot of my ambient CDs are extremely well recorded with minimal compression.

[Filterlab]

I find a lot of my ambient CDs are extremely well recorded with minimal compression.

It's an ideal style to receive uncompressed recording.

Art of Noise, some of their stuff is very well recorded. :)

[electron]

Hi all

I am a newbie to this forum, and I have been struck by the interest in digital computer sound, with regards to Ricks comments about ripping CDs to flac, which he said made a massive difference to the sound, I assume that means a noticable improvent, can one explain ? also as any one got any tips on how to improve computer sound which I feed through a valve amp, I also have a EMU-12 which sounds very good.

Regards Electron

[WAD62]

The only reason a FLAC file could possibly sound worse than a CD on playback is if it's been badly ripped. If you use EAC or dBpoweramp, and correctly calibrate your optical drive then in theory one should be able to get a near bit perfect rip.

On actual playback it should theoretically sound better due to the file being treated as a true computer data file, without any data being dropped.

I have an audiolab CDM/DAX combo and I stream into the DAX via a FLAC squeezebox combo. I've tried side by side comparisons between a CD on the transport and the FLAC file via the squeezebox. And guess what, disappointingly no difference (well once I realised that I needed to turn off replay gain on the squeezebox), or nothing I could detect.

FLAC is just a WinZip for .wav files with added tagging, it expands to the full .wav on playback.