View Full Version : Fooked potentiometer
Mikeandvan
06-05-2023, 11:18
CDMs arrived today, lovely looking things, only 38cm tall. What would be the best stands for these? The bases are 27.3 x 18.2 cm, weigh 8 kilo each.
CDMs arrived today, lovely looking things, only 38cm tall. What would be the best stands for these?
With these particular speakers any stand that puts the tweeter exactly at ear level.
Pigmy Pony
06-05-2023, 13:41
Probably 60cm.
Mikeandvan
06-05-2023, 18:58
I put them on the linton stands, they are pretty bad, boom is outrageous, fucking silly bastard I am, I think these need a much more powerful amp. I been reading about the lintons too, I think perhaps a more powerful amp would be beneficial for those too, so a new amp is needed now! I should get a good price for this sugden thingy anyway. What amp?!
I put them on the linton stands, they are pretty bad, boom is outrageous, fucking silly bastard I am, I think these need a much more powerful amp. I been reading about the lintons too, I think perhaps a more powerful amp would be beneficial for those too, so a new amp is needed now! I should get a good price for this sugden thingy anyway. What amp?!
They actually go a bit deeper in the bass than the Lintons so it's not a big surprise. But maybe it is just lack of grip from the Sugden and not your room? Or maybe a combination of the two? I'd have thought the Sugden would have managed both those speakers okay but perhaps they are not as good as I'd assumed.
Get a Krell - that will drive and control any speaker optimally, you'll never need to buy another amplifier. Or if you want to go modern then a Hypex or Purifi Class D would also settle that issue.
Lawrence001
06-05-2023, 22:13
Most mainstream companies try and eke more bass out of the speakers than the optimal range for the given size. They measure "better" when fed a sine wave in the lab and impress at short demos but it is one note bass and lacks the texture of a real bass instrument.
B&W jumped on this bandwagon years ago whereas it sounds like Wharfedale have tuned the bass of the Lintons to a range it can produce unforcefully. I don't know if Peter Comeau was involved but you can trust him to get it right.
Most mainstream companies try and eke more bass out of the speakers than the optimal range for the given size. They measure "better" when fed a sine wave in the lab and impress at short demos but it is one note bass and lacks the texture of a real bass instrument.
B&W jumped on this bandwagon years ago whereas it sounds like Wharfedale have tuned the bass of the Lintons to a range it can produce unforcefully. I don't know if Peter Comeau was involved but you can trust him to get it right.
I wouldn't say either speaker has stunt bass, measurements are available on line for both. I'd certainly try a more robust solid state amp before buying yet more speakers.
Lintons are a Peter Comeau design as you say he knows his stuff. And the CDM1 was from back when B&W designed for accuracy instead of instant showroom appeal.
Pigmy Pony
07-05-2023, 08:30
With all these speakers and amps going through the revolving doors of the one constant that is your room, perhaps go for some headphone listening until you're able to move house :)
Or has been suggested several times, try an equaliser... a cheaper punt than all these kit changes!
walpurgis
07-05-2023, 09:46
If it was me, I'd find a pair of cheap sealed cabinet speakers to try. See if they avoid exciting the room acoustic issues.
Sealed, unsealed, front ported, rear ported none of it will matter if the speaker is producing a frequency with enough amplitude to excite a room node.
With a room that size you will have nodes up to around 200Hz. So if it is a room problem then the only speakers that will work without boom are speakers with no bass at all. The configuration of the ports or whether it is sealed cab or reflex is prettymuch irrelevant.
With some small speakers they tune the port to give a big peak at one amplitude (usually around 100Hz) aka 'stunt bass' and this has given rise to the myth that ported speakers are more likely to boom.
The issues Mike is having don't correlate with my own experiences of using ported speakers in small-ish rooms (tiny rooms in a couple of cases)
we don't even know for sure yet if the problem is one of speaker-room interaction or speaker-amplifier interaction so I think that should be ruled out first. Perhaps naively I assumed that the Sugden A21 costing several thousand quid would have good voltage regulation even if it doesn't have much power, but am now wondering if it's all fur coat and no knickers.
Deploying a cheap analogue EQ unit would tell us if the problem is one of room-speaker since it would be easy to dial down the problem frequencies. That would be where I would start. If that doesn't help. the problem is amp=speaker.
Without applying a bit of logic here and narrowing down the issue Mike could go on buying random speakers until judgement day.
Mikeandvan
07-05-2023, 10:58
Judgement day is quite close as it happens, will I ever solve my audio woes before Putin sends those bombs, just one song?
Mikeandvan
07-05-2023, 11:34
'One song before frying'.:lol:
Pigmy Pony
07-05-2023, 13:06
Judgement day is quite close as it happens, will I ever solve my audio woes before Putin sends those bombs, just one song?
Probably not. But at least you won't hear it coming, what with all the boominess :(
Judgement day is quite close as it happens, will I ever solve my audio woes before Putin sends those bombs, just one song?
it'll be last thing russia does if he does and he and his cronies know it. trick is not to push them to a point where dying is better than living as a country..
i think we might manage that, but if not then ...
https://i.gifer.com/Drhc.gif
Hi Mike, with your small room you definitely have acoustic issues. All rooms need treatment and particularly yours, being almost square. You have received many suggestions for adding something absorbent to the walls and I fully agree.
There is a well understood science to this and my strong recommendation is to measure the room to find out exactly what is going on. It may sound daunting but is actually quite simple. A free download of REW and for the cost of a meal out and a few drinks you can buy a microphone and start measuring. It beats guessing anyday.
Measurement plots provided by REW will show where the worst problems occur in the frequency response. Moving the speaker position will show how the peaks and nulls move around.
Adrian posted a link to some nice looking arty absorption panels which will definitely help. At only 33mm thick they will absorb over a more limited frequency range but will still provide a smoother less echoey sound, that is; the decay time is reduced. If you provide a space between the panel and the wall it will absorb to a lower frequency. Ideally 50mm of rockwool or glass-fibre with 50mm space to the wall will perform as a broad-band absorber. Your room is too small for skyline diffusers to work, a minimum distance is required. Stay with absorption. Now I know some will caution you that too much absorption will deaden the room, well that's why you measure. There is a target decay to aim for and if that target is met then the room will be as good as you can get it. With acoustics properly sorted, the acoustics of your room will no longer impose on your sound and you will hear instead the acoustics of the venue. :thumbsup:
With some basic DIY skills these can be fabricated quite inexpensively. I used to visit demolisher sites for the insulation which I could pick up free.
I do not consider any DSP or equaliser a solution. IMO they do damage to the sound and certainly can't smooth out low frequencies. If DSP must be used it is best done in the digital domain.
If you were to measure your room you would probably be horrified at what you see in the modal region. There will be large peaks and nulls (dips) caused by constructive and destructive combining of LF. The peaks can be tamed by EQ etc. but you have bigger issues. Nulls or partial-nulls can be boosted but you fast run out of power. If you have a 15dB null you will need to double the power 5 times! Your Sugden is about 20W output, I think. So 0.64KW required to fill in that null. The voice coils will sizzle with gusto.
But all this power will not help! Whatever is causing the null will just cancel with the same power! There are two things you can do, preferably both. Add the dreaded bass traps and/or add a subwoofer or two or three.
Now you probably think I have not understood the fact that you have a problem with bass boom. :mental: I do understand.
There are a few things you can try: Temporarily turn your speakers upside down and place some books underneath to raise the tweeter back to ear height. This will change how the speaker couples to the room and will sound different, it may be worse or better. The harshness you hear from the tweeters could be overly long decay causing smear and congestion.
Now this suggestion is just to establish where the harshness originates. Lets try mechanical EQ, not electronic. Grab some 4" paint rollers (you do not need the handles) and carefully position a roller in front of the tweeter. I superglued the roller to a rubber eraser, you know, the type school kids use, as a spacer to allow the roller to just clear the tweeter dome, and a little prestick to mount it vertically to the baffle. This will mechanically attenuate the output a little and provide dispersion. Also position a roller in front of the mid/bass unit. Angle it in towards the dust cap. These rollers should probably be removed if you have visitors.
Plug the port if the speaker has one and listen. The problem is the layout is far from smooth in response and the peaks are causing one-note bass (boom) It should be possible to insert a line level crossover into the system which would usually sit between pre and power amps. With an integrated amp you can insert it in the tape loop. You need to know the impedance it's driving into to calculate the value. There are online apps for this. A small value cap and resistor is all that is needed. Start with an XO knee at about 100Hz.
What? Where is the bass? That is what the sub/s is/are for, only now you are free to place those subs where they are needed. By shuffling 2 subs around and looking at the frequency plot on REW you can smooth out the LF performance. This means more than just a different response. The peaks have been reduced and the nulls filled in. No major peaks means less shouty and no nulls or mild partial-nulls means music previously missing, it's a null remember, there is nothing there due to cancellation, will now be heard. The subs are not there to produce thunderous bass but to tune the room and fill in above the PLLXO (passive line level crossover)
Apologies for the long post but don't know how to put this across more succinctly.
Let me finish (gasp) by saying that room treatment and multi-subs will place you in a position where regardless of what amp or speaker you end up with, you will be assessing them in an accurate environment and will apply also to any new cable, tweaks etc.
How will an equaliser 'damage' the sound? A quality unit will add negligible noise and distortion and it will be easy to reduce any peaks in the bass response with it. Analogue EQ was used for decades for professional recording and replay, the idea that it intrinsically damages the sound is an audiophile myth from the 1980s.
A broadband absorber will be no use whatsoever for that particular issue although I agree such treatments will be useful for overall SQ improvement.
Plugging ports or turning speakers upside down will just cause a number of new problems. It's a sticking-plaster solution at best.
Agree DSP with multiple subs makes sense and is probably the most elegant solution, but getting accurate in room measurements of the FR isn't a trivial task and it's an expensive fix when it's likely that all that is required to solve the issue is to slightly reduce the amplitude of a narrow band of low frequencies.
Mikeandvan
08-05-2023, 19:44
Thanks very much for your post Charles, I will certainly look into bass traps a bit more now. Though I will also likely get an Eq off ebay as well.
" How will an equaliser 'damage' the sound? "
Probably because the signal encounters a bunch of unnecessary electronics. I do not care about the how nor why, I do not like what I hear. The fact that it has been used for decades is no commendation.
" A broadband absorber will be no use whatsoever "
Wrong, the broader the better. Do you understand its purpose? Narrow-band absorption does not help anything and certainly can't target a narrow specific band of frequencies. We are not talking about Helmholtz resonators here. What is needed is to absorb predominantly down and into the Schroeder frequencies.
" Plugging ports or turning speakers upside down will just cause a number of new problems. It's a sticking-plaster solution at best. "
Read what I said and you will notice the word Temporarily
"Agree DSP with multiple subs makes sense and is probably the most elegant solution, but getting accurate in room measurements of the FR isn't a trivial task "
Where are you getting this stuff from? Not trivial? Hey you run the program, let the computer do its thing and there is your plot. Easy Peasy. Have you ever used it, if so what were you getting hung up on?
" and it's an expensive fix "
How is it expensive? REW is free and a suitable microphone is less than 100 bucks.
" it's likely that all that is required to solve the issue is to slightly reduce the amplitude of a narrow band of low frequencies. "
You can not know that without measuring. How would you know what frequencies are causing the problems and at what amplitude?
I plugged Mike's approximate room dimensions into this calculator which shows it lies outside the bolt area. His room needs lots of help but it's doable.
https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=14&w=13&h=9&ft=true&re=EBU%20listening%20room
And after you've played with EQ whatcha gonna do about the long decay time???
Yup, bass traps and broad-band absorbers.
Hey Mike, you are welcome.
Check out the room calculator in my post above. Lots of fun.
Lawrence001
08-05-2023, 23:42
You could try this
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/minidsp-ddrc-24-dirac-live.280099/
Or this
https://www.avforums.com/threads/minidsp-ddrc-24-and-umik-1-microphone.2456842/
Mikeandvan
10-05-2023, 20:43
Lintons really starting to grow on me, think these might be 'the ones', lol. Here's the dreaded listening room, now cleared of that massive coffee table. Playing some James Brown now and no boom, it really is only with bass heavy tracks, one of the main offenders being a few tracks from the Pat Metheny First Circle LP.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52870763689_134709d4a8_z.jpg
Surprising with such a small woofer [emoji16]
Pigmy Pony
11-05-2023, 05:43
I recognise that look - he's about to cock his leg, but can't decide which speaker :)
Nice choice with the Pat Metheny - i have that one. Still can't cope with that 1st track though...
Lawrence001
11-05-2023, 10:52
Must try it with my big Amphions which are close to the wall see if I get much boom.
Mikeandvan
11-05-2023, 10:54
I recognise that look - he's about to cock his leg, but can't decide which speaker :)
Nice choice with the Pat Metheny - i have that one. Still can't cope with that 1st track though...
One of my current fave Lps, agree about track one! I got on on vinyl and cd, not sure which sounds best.
Mikeandvan
11-05-2023, 10:57
Must try it with my big Amphions which are close to the wall see if I get much boom.
I get boom on track 5 near the opening, and especially on track 6.
Pigmy Pony
11-05-2023, 13:37
I get boom on track 5 near the opening, and especially on track 6.
Just fired up the gramophone to try those tracks myself, as mine is also vinyl. I'll report back in 30 minutes.
Pigmy Pony
11-05-2023, 14:21
Right then, my copy has just four tracks on side one, so I assume you mean the first two tracks on side two ("Tell it All" and "End of the Game")... first one's bass output on my set up is a little uneven, but not enough to bother me, and the other track sounds just great, even those thundering drums towards the end of the track sound pretty quick and well-defined. Nothing that i would call 'boomy' anywhere.
But as experiments go, this is about as unscientific as it gets. Different set up, my REL sub (which I feel sure has helped enormously), and a completely different shaped room.
Might be that Sailor's suggestions are what might sort your problem once and for all, but all that is completely beyond me, so good luck with that.
This is currently one of the forum's more interesting threads, and I look forward to seeing what you try next :)
AJSki2fly
11-05-2023, 16:33
I get boom on track 5 near the opening, and especially on track 6.
I played it earlier and also got no boom boom. I will have another listen
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Like others and for the lolz I also played the Methany tracks. No boominess, just clean bass. My speakers go down to 35hz (+/-4db) so plenty there to excite the room.
One thing I found that helped on boominess is methodically going through a speaker placement recipe. One idea is the sumiko method (https://www.thesoundapprentice.com/2019/11/sumiko-speaker-placement-guide.html), can take some time to tune things but very worthwhile (well it was for me). If you do try it Mike be patient - give yourself at least 2 hours.
But I guess your room will ultimately need some form of treatment as others have identified. Doubt your problem is a fooked pot. :)
I've tried both of those tracks and no boom here, in fact they both sounded like there was very little bass at all. Mind you it was via Tidal streaming.
15" Tannoys here so I get plenty bass when needed [emoji16]
It's yer room [emoji6]
Pigmy Pony
11-05-2023, 18:40
I've tried both of those tracks and no boom here, in fact they both sounded like there was very little bass at all. Mind you it was via Tidal streaming.
15" Tannoys here so I get plenty bass when needed [emoji16]
It's yer room [emoji6]
:eek: Bloody hell is there anyone on here that doesn't have this album? I'd hoped this was one of the LPs that would eventually be worth enough to see me through retirement, but not when every bugger and his dog has a copy... Tis a good 'un though int it :)
I've not either and having listened to those 2 tracks I never will [emoji23]
I've not either and having listened to those 2 tracks I never will [emoji23]
Aye, I think I’d be wanting to hear more of the room and less of the album lol.
Pigmy Pony
12-05-2023, 06:09
Now now, those of you with no taste form an orderly queue, there's enough Coldplay albums in this pile for all of you :)
Now now, those of you with no taste form an orderly queue, there's enough Coldplay albums in this pile for all of you :)Coldplay? I'd rather stick rusty pins in my eyes [emoji23]
walpurgis
12-05-2023, 11:32
Coldplay? I'd rather stick rusty pins in my eyes [emoji23]
:lol:
Pigmy Pony
12-05-2023, 12:50
Coldplay? I'd rather stick rusty pins in my eyes [emoji23]
So you don't feel moved when they say you're a sky full of stars? My view has always been that they're a bag of shite, but if DHL thinks they're worth sponsoring maybe it's just us.
one of my brother's mates was an A&R man, he turned down Coldplay. My brother asked him if he regretted it and he said no, it's bedwetter's music.
Back in the Day I quite liked them, was them, Keane and all those guys.
1st two abums had "interesting" tracks on them,
X & Y the same (not effin' "Fix You" tho. :steam:)
After that... naa, not so much.
Ran out of talent.
Back in the Day I quite liked them, was them, Keane and all those guys.
1st two abums had "interesting" tracks on them,
X & Y the same (not effin' "Fix You" tho. :steam:)
After that... naa, not so much.
Ran out of talent.
A musician said to me all their songs are just half a song, half an idea. Thought that was interesting and now I notice it's true with quite a lot of music.
Here is a video that is quite interesting, though it is not necessary to spend the $5000 mentioned to achieve this result.
https://youtu.be/lVfxxUEhmnQ
Mikeandvan
16-05-2023, 11:03
Thinking of trying a more powerful integrated now to make sure I'm getting the best out of these lintons amp wise anyway. Was thinking Supernait, but then there around a £1000 used, something around £500 used might be just as good? Weren't there some decent Arcam amps in the FMJ range?
AJSki2fly
16-05-2023, 11:17
Thinking of trying a more powerful integrated now to make sure I'm getting the best out of these lintons amp wise anyway. Was thinking Supernait, but then there around a £1000 used, something around £500 used might be just as good? Weren't there some decent Arcam amps in the FMJ range?
I know you said integrated but these are cracking amps, https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/235003002591?hash=item36b7453edf:g:6TwAAOSwfi5kRqQ 8 and just add a good pre and you will be sorted.
had one of the smaller fmj's.. good enough amps, and perhaps slightly lighter on bass presentation. heavy and well made tho.
Quad 909 with passive pre
Mikeandvan
16-05-2023, 19:51
Quad 909 with passive pre
Had one of those, strange presentation, extremely 'soft'.
Mikeandvan
16-05-2023, 19:52
I know you said integrated but these are cracking amps, https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/235003002591?hash=item36b7453edf:g:6TwAAOSwfi5kRqQ 8 and just add a good pre and you will be sorted.
Emmm, what's the house sound?
Mikeandvan
16-05-2023, 19:54
Needs remote, I'm 52 now!
Needs remote, I'm 52 now!
I manage without a remote and I've got a longer walk over to the amp than you. And I'm older!
I'm also in my 50s, remotes are for whimps
I'm older, and my gear is so old it doesn't have remotes. That is why all my audio gear is within arms reach of my listening position.
The TV and DVD player do use remotes which IMO is an almost essential feature.
Pigmy Pony
16-05-2023, 20:29
I'm also in my 50s, remotes are for whimps
Agree. I have remotes for CD player and the amp, they're both gathering dust behind their respective units. And I feel it's important to get regular exercise :)
I have to get up anyway to change the record or CD, it's no hardship to set the volume while I'm up...
I have to get up anyway to change the record or CD, it's no hardship to set the volume while I'm up...
Precisely!
I'm older, and my gear is so old it doesn't have remotes. That is why all my audio gear is within arms reach of my listening position.
The TV and DVD player do use remotes which IMO is an almost essential feature.
can't be that essential as we all managed without remote for the telly for decades. Although I suppose with modern tellies you can't do anything without the remote.
First VCR my old man rented had no remote. Second one had a hand held control connected by a wire to the VCR. He insisted that this was 'remote' control even though it clearly wasn't. In truth he was too tight to pay the extra £1.50 a month to rent the next model up with a proper remote.
......... Although I suppose with modern tellies you can't do anything without the remote.
Exactly my point. You cannot do anything with the TV without using the remote.
All you can do with the DVD player, without the remote, is to start/stop and open/close the drawer
Exactly my point. You cannot do anything with the TV without using the remote.
All you can do with the DVD player, without the remote, is to start/stop and open/close the drawer
Mine does have basic controls like stop, start, fast forward etc on front panel but they are black on black so not very practical for two reasons.
Mikeandvan
16-05-2023, 21:09
Agree. I have remotes for CD player and the amp, they're both gathering dust behind their respective units. And I feel it's important to get regular exercise :)
I have to get up anyway to change the record or CD, it's no hardship to set the volume while I'm up...
I whack a cd or record on, sit down, then attenuate the volume. Plus if the phone rings I can just mute it, remote control is now an essential for me.
Denon are always a good bet, the newer ones have remote control and they're not stupid money.
walpurgis
17-05-2023, 07:06
I'm also in my 50s, remotes are for whimps
I just forget to use remotes anyway.
Mike, you need to get yourself a remote controlled turntable. :eyebrows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gStUUOGPbO4
Mikeandvan
17-05-2023, 09:26
Mike, you need to get yourself a remote controlled turntable. :eyebrows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gStUUOGPbO4
Useful for Bob Dylan LPs.
Pigmy Pony
18-05-2023, 05:54
I whack a cd or record on, sit down, then attenuate the volume. Plus if the phone rings I can just mute it, remote control is now an essential for me.
I just leave my phone out in the hallway, sometimes I hear it and leave the room to answer it, sometimes not. But I appreciate that being self employed you can't afford to be missing calls.
AJSki2fly
18-05-2023, 06:56
Needs remote, I'm 52 now!
I’m not remotely amused, it’s a POWER amp, get a Pre with remote[emoji6]
For a house sound try Hip-hop[emoji23]
Mikeandvan
18-05-2023, 10:34
I just leave my phone out in the hallway, sometimes I hear it and leave the room to answer it, sometimes not. But I appreciate that being self employed you can't afford to be missing calls.
I rarely answer the phone these days, does my fookin head in.
Mikeandvan
18-05-2023, 10:45
I’m not remotely amused, it’s a POWER amp, get a Pre with remote[emoji6]
For a house sound try Hip-hop[emoji23]
Was looking at that Meridian actually, is that particular model good? There's an integrated over on PFM for 300 notes posted, the 551. Apart from that I do tend to emote alot when talking about hifi.
Lawrence001
18-05-2023, 14:19
I'm older, and my gear is so old it doesn't have remotes. That is why all my audio gear is within arms reach of my listening position.
The TV and DVD player do use remotes which IMO is an almost essential feature.Now that's nearfield [emoji23]
Now that's nearfield [emoji23]
I should have been more precise: all the sources and electronics are within arm's reach. The speakers, however, are 5 metres away from my listening position. ;)
Was looking at that Meridian actually, is that particular model good? There's an integrated over on PFM for 300 notes posted, the 551. Apart from that I do tend to emote alot when talking about hifi.
All Meridian are good, the integrated for £300 is worth considering.
551 didnt come with a remote as standard and you kinda need one so check it has one
Mikeandvan
18-05-2023, 20:00
551 didnt come with a remote as standard and you kinda need one so check it has one
It comes with one of those big stupid Meridian ones! but I can probably program it with my Harmony anyway.
AJSki2fly
19-05-2023, 05:36
Was looking at that Meridian actually, is that particular model good? There's an integrated over on PFM for 300 notes posted, the 551. Apart from that I do tend to emote alot when talking about hifi.
All the 500 series Meridian were pretty good, an ex Meridian service engineer told me that. The surround sound processor (562 I think) could develop board issues.
The 556 and 557 are very good, I used to have a 557 and have heard a 556. The 551 should be good as well, although I suspect a 556 or 557 will be slightly more refined, with better bass/control.
I should have kept to my 557 and had it serviced with new big caps, but got confused, my system issues at the time were a combination of room and speakers as I realised later.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
557's a great amp, love mine.
Thats what I got with mine Adrian,
Serviced and recapped by Ex Meridian engineer, the thing will outlast me.
Amp for life.
Meridian is good kit.
AJSki2fly
20-05-2023, 07:04
557's a great amp, love mine.
Thats what I got with mine Adrian,
Serviced and recapped by Ex Meridian engineer, the thing will outlast me.
Amp for life.
Meridian is good kit.
Yes Gary, I remember we discussed your purchase at the time as you asked my advice. Very pleased it was what you expected. The 557 is a exceptional amp as is the 556, both are often overlooked IMO. As I said if I had kept mine I and just found a pair of speakers suited to me and room I would have saved myself a lot of hifi pain and expense with various amps and speakers, but I got there in the end with the Krell and WB Vectors.u
Mikeandvan
20-05-2023, 08:55
Yes Gary, I remember we discussed your purchase at the time as you asked my advice. Very pleased it was what you expected. The 557 is a exceptional amp as is the 556, both are often overlooked IMO. As I said if I had kept mine I and just found a pair of speakers suited to me and room I would have saved myself a lot of hifi pain and expense with various amps and speakers, but I got there in the end with the Krell and WB Vectors.u
Are the Meridian power amps we've been discussing similar in SQ to the Quad 909?
Mikeandvan
20-05-2023, 08:59
Listening to Cannonball Adderley now, 'Something else', and it's superb, still a bit of brightness on the highest wind instrument notes, but everything else is beautiful, music seems to sound better in the morning for me.
Are the Meridian power amps we've been discussing similar in SQ to the Quad 909?
you can't 'hear' the sound of an amplifier without hooking it up to some speakers, and the load presented to the amplifier by the chosen speaker will affect the sound the pairing creates, plus speakers tend to sound different anyway so its better not to consider the 'sound' of the amplifier but instead consider how well the amplifier can cope with the load from the particular speakers you are using.
I wouldn't expect the QUAD to 'sound' any different to the Meridian with your Wharfedale speakers. But then it is a power amp so there is the variable of the interaction with the chosen pre-amp too.
It can get quite complicated this hi-fi lark. :)
Mikeandvan
20-05-2023, 10:02
you can't 'hear' the sound of an amplifier without hooking it up to some speakers, and the load presented to the amplifier by the chosen speaker will affect the sound the pairing creates, plus speakers tend to sound different anyway so its better not to consider the 'sound' of the amplifier but instead consider how well the amplifier can cope with the load from the particular speakers you are using.
I wouldn't expect the QUAD to 'sound' any different to the Meridian with your Wharfedale speakers. But then it is a power amp so there is the variable of the interaction with the chosen pre-amp too.
It can get quite complicated this hi-fi lark. :)
That's 99% of hifi markerting hype out of the window then! :lol:
That's 99% of hifi markerting hype out of the window then! :lol:
Quite. I've got lots of amplifiers and lots of loudspeakers and I've tried most of the combinations and it's amazing how one amp can sound fantastic with one set of speakers and a bit poor with another set that give it a harder time.
That's what makes all the talk of amplifiers having an intrinsic sound a bit of a joke really. I mean why would you want the amp to have a sound anyway? I don't listen to the amplifier I listen to the music it is amplifying. Reviewers never seem to take this into account; if they review an amp they use whatever speaker they happen to have and then give their verdict as though the complex interaction between the two just doesn't exist.
Likewise if they review a speaker they use whatever amp they have regardless if whether it is up to the task or not. In some cases this can make a big difference to sound quality and the 'character' of the sound. Hence you get all manner of conflicting opinions on what is a 'good' speaker or a 'good' amplifier.
AJSki2fly
20-05-2023, 15:22
Quite. I've got lots of amplifiers and lots of loudspeakers and I've tried most of the combinations and it's amazing how one amp can sound fantastic with one set of speakers and a bit poor with another set that give it a harder time.
That's what makes all the talk of amplifiers having an intrinsic sound a bit of a joke really. I mean why would you want the amp to have a sound anyway? I don't listen to the amplifier I listen to the music it is amplifying. Reviewers never seem to take this into account; if they review an amp they use whatever speaker they happen to have and then give their verdict as though the complex interaction between the two just doesn't exist.
Likewise if they review a speaker they use whatever amp they have regardless if whether it is up to the task or not. In some cases this can make a big difference to sound quality and the 'character' of the sound. Hence you get all manner of conflicting opinions on what is a 'good' speaker or a 'good' amplifier.
Quite true Martin, a good amplifier will be neutral, and will not colour the signal that goes into it and is amplified and sent out to the speakers, as long as the amplifier has plenty of power to handle the load the speakers put on it then all should be well. As I found with my learning curve a 300B valve amp, albeit a very good one struggle to push a pair of Wilson Benesch speakers, it dod not sound awful just a bit uncontrolled in the low frequencies when turned up, too loose might be a way to describe it. However the Krell has amples of power and damping factor and could probably drive most speakers, as could a Meridian 556 or 557.
Speakers as I know IMHO do have there own characteristics, obviously design and type has the biggest impact. In simple terms a small book shelf design will not produce much below 50hz, although there are some very expensive ones that can, mid sized floor standers are a compromise, a bigger box to get more bass, then there are all the design tricks front/rear porting, porting, baffles, and horns to get more from them. None of this stuff is straight forward when it comes to speakers, take a simple 3 way floor stander from one manufacturer and compare it to one from another and it is likely to sound tonally different, one may be better in some frequencies whereas the other may excel the other on other areas. The point of this ramble is to try and emphasise that the loudspeaker you use in the your listening room is IMO key to the end listening experience.I am not saying the amp and the front end(TT,CD or Streamer) are not important but if the speakers are not up to it and do not work well in a room then its game over, you can fiddle with the rest forever and will be unlikely to get satisfaction.
So my advice is to try different speakers, my personal view is that the Linton's will be too much for Mike's room in bass terms, and probably a reasonably good stand mount with near field listening, at least 1m forward from the wall behind the listening position will probably give better results. MI can't remember which Sugden amp Mike has but I believe they have a pretty good reputation so I would not necessarily change that first, unless it is mismatched in terms of power and damping with the Lintion's, in which case it is either find speakers that work well with the Sugden, or IMO change amp and speakers(taking the room into consideration.
That's my two-penny worth, trying to be practical and give sensible advice from personal experience. What do you think Martin?
Small sealed speakers, a powerful amp, small sub .
https://images2.imgbox.com/0e/38/RddcLybm_o.jpg (https://imgbox.com/RddcLybm)
Quite true Martin, a good amplifier will be neutral, and will not colour the signal that goes into it and is amplified and sent out to the speakers, as long as the amplifier has plenty of power to handle the load the speakers put on it then all should be well. As I found with my learning curve a 300B valve amp, albeit a very good one struggle to push a pair of Wilson Benesch speakers, it dod not sound awful just a bit uncontrolled in the low frequencies when turned up, too loose might be a way to describe it. However the Krell has amples of power and damping factor and could probably drive most speakers, as could a Meridian 556 or 557.
Speakers as I know IMHO do have there own characteristics, obviously design and type has the biggest impact. In simple terms a small book shelf design will not produce much below 50hz, although there are some very expensive ones that can, mid sized floor standers are a compromise, a bigger box to get more bass, then there are all the design tricks front/rear porting, porting, baffles, and horns to get more from them. None of this stuff is straight forward when it comes to speakers, take a simple 3 way floor stander from one manufacturer and compare it to one from another and it is likely to sound tonally different, one may be better in some frequencies whereas the other may excel the other on other areas. The point of this ramble is to try and emphasise that the loudspeaker you use in the your listening room is IMO key to the end listening experience.I am not saying the amp and the front end(TT,CD or Streamer) are not important but if the speakers are not up to it and do not work well in a room then its game over, you can fiddle with the rest forever and will be unlikely to get satisfaction.
So my advice is to try different speakers, my personal view is that the Linton's will be too much for Mike's room in bass terms, and probably a reasonably good stand mount with near field listening, at least 1m forward from the wall behind the listening position will probably give better results. MI can't remember which Sugden amp Mike has but I believe they have a pretty good reputation so I would not necessarily change that first, unless it is mismatched in terms of power and damping with the Lintion's, in which case it is either find speakers that work well with the Sugden, or IMO change amp and speakers(taking the room into consideration.
That's my two-penny worth, trying to be practical and give sensible advice from personal experience. What do you think Martin?
well I suggested the Lintons since Mike was not happy with harsh sound and they are certainly not bright or harsh, plus they don't go low in the bass despite the large (by modern convention) woofer. Anyone who has heard 15'' Tannoy work just fine in a small room will know bass depth and woofer size are not necessarily related.
The Lintons are not a tough load but not the easiest either. I thought the Sugden would not have an issue and maybe it does not and it is the room, but not easy to say without getting hands on and trying some other options. Maybe the Sugden is okay but I would not put too much trust on its 'reputation' alone. There seems to be a lot of hero worship around for anything the UK magazines pushed hard back on the 1990s, when we were all younger and more impressionable, but a lot of it was not that great in reality.
I agree with you that good speakers in a good acoustic is the foundation of any system that is going to satisfy long term and with complex music and not just simple acoustic stuff. Ideally there would be lots of good speakers that will work optimally with any amp but in truth there are hardly any (at least by my definition of 'good speaker').
I don't think the amp can be underestimated but it's not about 'quality' or 'character' but how well it can handle the load and many amps are quite poor in that respect, regardless of price. Especially when modern speakers (i.e post 1970s) often have low impedance dips and steep phase angles, as soon as you put on demanding programme you can hear the problem right away, usually obvious in the low frequencies but the whole frequency spectrum is affected.
Someone once said that speakers are designed with a complete disregard for amplifiers and amplifiers are designed with a complete disregard for the speakers they are likely to be used with. I think that is true. Most amps are a bit rubbish when it comes to driving real world loudspeakers optimally.
One outcome could be bass boom since the amp is no longer delivering a flat response. I still think it's possible this the cause of the problem here. Certainly the Meridians or the big QUAD that have been suggested should do the job. If there is still boom with one of those (with digital source, can't rule out the many potential issues with a turntable) then it's the room. In which case EQ, passive treatment, or speakers with no real bass at all.
Pigmy Pony
20-05-2023, 17:36
Small sealed speakers, a powerful amp, small sub .
https://images2.imgbox.com/0e/38/RddcLybm_o.jpg (https://imgbox.com/RddcLybm)
A nice neat and uncluttered set up. I like how the components are almost in a different room to the speakers :)
Mikeandvan
20-05-2023, 23:37
Small sealed speakers, a powerful amp, small sub .
https://images2.imgbox.com/0e/38/RddcLybm_o.jpg (https://imgbox.com/RddcLybm)
If those speakers produce a serious sound, then that is nice looking, unobtrusive system. Are they the LS3 Falcon?
Mikeandvan
20-05-2023, 23:47
I should add I'm happier with my system now. After hearing the B&W CDM1s (which I quickly sold on at no loss), I was surprised that a speaker considerably smaller than the Lintons would produce a bigger bass, AND they were front ported, so I thought, easy, position close to the wall, no boom, how wrong I was, they boomed like crazy. The Proac 140s boom about as much as the Lintons, but the Lintons sound is easier, obv what I've been after, and I thank Marco for suggesting them. A more powerful amp would be interesting though.
If those speakers produce a serious sound, then that is nice looking, unobtrusive system. Are they the LS3 Falcon?
Yep, silver badge version (whatever that means) my alcoves make bass difficult to get even, they restrict me massively. It took me years to find the AN Ks, theyre sealed abd not too big, the Falcons are smaller still but have that fast bass with little over hang. They're a joy to be honest. I've messed about with so many larger speakers as I do like a bit of welly now and again, tte sub will hopefully add that ability to tune the bass in to an acceptable level without exciting the alcoves. My wife has got used to small speakers now though so also shot myself in the foot for any future tinkering :D
I'd really love to try those Art Moderne 8s for sale, given what previous owners have said, they'd give me bass issues, doesn't stop me wondering though.
Mikeandvan
21-05-2023, 19:20
Yep, silver badge version (whatever that means) my alcoves make bass difficult to get even, they restrict me massively. It took me years to find the AN Ks, theyre sealed abd not too big, the Falcons are smaller still but have that fast bass with little over hang. They're a joy to be honest. I've messed about with so many larger speakers as I do like a bit of welly now and again, tte sub will hopefully add that ability to tune the bass in to an acceptable level without exciting the alcoves. My wife has got used to small speakers now though so also shot myself in the foot for any future tinkering :D
I'd really love to try those Art Moderne 8s for sale, given what previous owners have said, they'd give me bass issues, doesn't stop me wondering though.
I remember having your old AN Ks and thinking how weird they sounded. They were addictive at first, I was trying to work out why the percussion was so prominent and it was of course because of the reduced bass, but they are not enough of an all round speaker for me, saying that I wouldn't mind hearing a pair in my current set up, but not at the silly prices AN want for them now. How is that sub sounding in your system, apparently I should get one too.
Mikeandvan
27-08-2023, 21:17
Auctioned my Sugden a21a on Ebay as spares or repairs, and only expected to get £200 for it, and it went for £500, lol. I listed all its faults, rough volume pot, iffy on/off button, all switches not smooth, phono stage cutting out one channel!! Well, its been a week now, and no comeback, so hopefully buyer happy, may be he just sent it straight to someone for service, tbh it probably didn't need much. Anyway enjoying A21a Sig now, all sounding pretty smooth, and it's got the 'essential' remote.
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